What are your thoughts on the Combat Action Badge, and it becoming retroactive to 1941?

2015-04-05T11:29:58-04:00

The Combat Action Badge was created in 2005 to honor those who'd engaged or been engaged by enemy forces during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but weren't eligible for similar awards available to medics or infantrymen.

It was made retroactive to Sept. 18, 2001, but since shortly after its founding, lawmakers and veterans groups have pushed to send it back much farther — to the outbreak of World War II.

As Maneuver Support Soldier, I know support personal (like Aviation, Engineers, MPs, Truck Drivers, etc. (in addition to our Medics who accompany maneuver forces) are often also directly engaged in close combat along side of our infantry and armor brothers. So, the CAB made sense to me, to accompany the CIB and CMB.

Despite the frenzy that ensued, and discussions of "CAB hunters," I still believe this is an important award, especially for MOSs like MP and Engineers.... who, as an example, during the surge in Iraq were rivaling our combat arms brothers in daily combat casualties.

I was personally shot at more and returned fire more in Somalia, than Iraq. So, this being retroactive also makes sense.

I think this is a good idea, and deserved, however, the logistics of doing this will be overwhelming.

Before you CAB naysayers chime in... Consider COP Keating... Those guys were not 11Bs. They were scouts and armor crewmen. 2 MOHs and many other medals were awarded there. 8 Soldiers were killed and many were wounded. Does not that merit such an award? There are many others like it.

What are your thoughts?

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/04/04/combat-action-badge-retroactive/25235333/

CAB for past conflicts? 5 things you should know

Summer will bring an update to a long-standing push to make the Combat Action Badge retroactive to 1941.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2015 11:34 AM

2015-04-05T11:34:26-04:00

Thank you Sir for tagging me but that was after my time and I do not know of it well enough to speak on it. However, I look forward to learning from others on here about it.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Apr 5 at 2015 11:43 AM

2015-04-05T11:43:56-04:00

Thank you for tagging me into this discussion.

I think this is a good idea in general, but wonder how it would be accomplished in practice.
I tried to find combat after action reports for Vietnam with little luck.
I can only guess what the records for WW2 must like.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Apr 5 at 2015 11:51 AM

2015-04-05T11:51:50-04:00

I am all for it! Easiest way to justify the award is to make eligible awardees automatic for all veterans awarded to all that rec'd a V device as well as a purple heart eligible to receive the award. I'd appreciate seeing more wear the badge, especially when I think of the selfless service of those that have gone before us!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 5 at 2015 11:52 AM

2015-04-05T11:52:41-04:00

Gut reaction is that documentation would be insane.

Did we even keep records of non-Infantry/Medic/Special Forces who may have been involved in combat?

On the USMC/USN/USCG side, we have one ribbon which covers all personnel, so it's simple. But the Army... Would it have documented incidents that had no administrative purpose? (awards).

When it really boils down to it, the concept of recognition is great. However the initial execution of the CIB/CMB created a hole, and what can only be described as an administrative nightmare.

At this point, there is no real way to prove someone rates it from time periods prior to 2000.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Apr 5 at 2015 12:03 PM

2015-04-05T12:03:13-04:00

I value my CAB award from Kandahar and believe it should be granted retroactively. I like the recommendation of CSM Michael J. Uhlig of granting it to awardees that combat action is defined in the award. You will have to allow a process for prior service to apply as well. I realize that ultimately this is another 'love me' award, but so are all other and since the award is out there and available, the front end of the time should be expanded.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2015 12:15 PM

2015-04-05T12:15:57-04:00

Absolutely! I think this should've been made available a lot sooner. Hell move it all the way back and award them posthumously.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2015 1:50 PM

2015-04-05T13:50:55-04:00

There are many who are not infantry or medic but were also involved in combat and not eligible for the CIB or CMB. I believe sometimes we are a little misguided in who only we recognize. Is one MOS more important then the other? Maybe in some instances yes others no. So yes I do believe there are many others who deserve their recognition. Make it Retroactive and give it to those who deserve to be recognized.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Apr 5 at 2015 2:11 PM

2015-04-05T14:11:45-04:00

Although I think that this is an excellent idea, I also think that - logistically - it is an absolute nightmare.

I can see that the criteria will most definitely be set so as to ensure that everyone higher than a QM O-4 who ever set foot in a country where anyone in the US military was ever shot at will qualify (but be so convoluted that the Rifleman on the front line will fail some bureaucratic criterion).

NOW, if someone wants to come up with a clear set of criteria to be applied in the future, THAT would really be a good idea.

BTW, would "I was all alone, where I was supposed to be and doing what I was supposed to be doing, and a couple of 'bad guys' tried to stop me doing it - but they ended up as incredibly dead and the task got done (without any paperwork being involved)." qualify?

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Apr 5 at 2015 4:51 PM

2015-04-05T16:51:50-04:00

I have no skin in the game, so to speak, but I can go with retroactive award much like it's big sister award the CIB was retroactively awarded.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2015 7:08 PM

2015-04-05T19:08:24-04:00

COL Charles Williams, Sir, I think this is an outstanding proposal, and I support it 100%. I believe CSM Michael J. Uhlig has provided an excellent set of screening criteria that would serve to streamline and expedite the process in many cases, anything beyond that would perhaps require validated proof such as unit documentation, sworn witness statements, etc.

For those who would balk at the volume of administrative work generated by this proposal I say tough crap! We've been down this road twice before in Army history, when the made the awarding of the Combat Infantryman's Badge retroactive, and again when they did the same with the Combat Medic's Badge.

Some tasks are worthy of undertaking, regardless of how daunting they may first appear. This is one of them. Besides, the onus for receiving this award falls upon the Veteran or his or her family; it's hardly as if the Department of the Army is being mandated to pour through hundreds of thousands of old service records in search of qualified recipients!

This is too easy; let's make it happen!

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Apr 5 at 2015 8:46 PM

2015-04-05T20:46:31-04:00

I think the Armor branch would want this. Between WWII's massive Armor battles, Armored Cavalry in Vietnam, and the combined arms fights of the 1980s and 90s

A similar argument could be made for Artillery, Engineers. There were proposals for similar combat badges in the post WWII years and they were struck down.

Agree with CSM Uhlig

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Apr 5 at 2015 10:06 PM

2015-04-05T22:06:41-04:00

Making the CAB retroactive to 1941 is not a good idea for several reasons:
1. Cost. What government agency is going to pick up the admin and staffing costs to implement this proposal? How much are these costs expected to be? In today's austere fiscal environment, would not those costs and energy be better allocated somewhere else?
2. Criteria. How does one prove that one has met the criteria to receive a CAB 70 years after the fact? How is this criteria applied in a fair and consistent manner?
3. Warfare changes. The justification for implementation of the CAB was that non infantry were performing the duties of infantry without the award recognitions that the infantry received. How does this justification apply in WWII, the Korean War, and DS/DS when it generally did not apply (non infantry did the job of infantry)? It can be argued that it applied during the Vietnam War. If that is the case why make it retroactive to 1941?
4. Generational Differences. The Millenial generation is generally derided as receiving awards as kids just for showing up rather than for achieving first place only. The Baby Boom generation did not grow up this way which makes me wonder how much they would value a CAB.
5. Current Fiscal and Strategic Environment. Let's keep our eye on the ball. US resources and energy are not infinite even in a perfect world where we had great leadership with a great strategy and perfect implementation of that strategy. Let's face it. We are not living in a perfect world. We need to focus on the important stuff like our economy and how to defeat radical Islam.

Response by SFC John Gemmell made Apr 5 at 2015 10:09 PM

2015-04-05T22:09:40-04:00

Hello Colonel Williams.

This is a fantastic idea as long as all service members who would normally qualify, are awarded the badge. This includes African American Soldiers and Women who served under the same conditions of combat as men.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Apr 5 at 2015 11:30 PM

2015-04-05T23:30:53-04:00

COL Charles Williams, it seems like an admirable notion, but one that would be virtually impossible to implement on a fair, impartial and equitable basis. Not to mention that the posers would come out of the woodwork for this one!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 12:43 AM

2015-04-06T00:43:12-04:00

I've seen the CIB and CAB blanketed to entire brigades in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would be more for the award to be retroactive than just being handed out. Just make sure the vetting process is thorough.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 1:58 PM

2015-04-06T13:58:10-04:00

I think the CAB should be removed entirely. Infantrymen didn't ask for the CIB, it was awarded to them in recognition of enlisting knowing they would be on the front lines. They did not enlist to learn a skill or craft that would be beneficial to the civilian sector, they instead joined for the sole purpose of fighting the war. That's what makes them special, that's what made others say they deserved that special piece of jewelry.

For all others serving, perhaps you should have considered college to learn a skill or craft. It's called "The Army" and going to war should have been known not implied as a possibility.

Since when did you need a piece of jewelry to brag about?

Response by SPC Clifton Sommer made Apr 6 at 2015 3:46 PM

2015-04-06T15:46:07-04:00

As a holder of the CIB, I see nothing wrong with this idea.

Response by SPC Jesse Cannon made Apr 6 at 2015 4:07 PM

2015-04-06T16:07:52-04:00

I wish they would allow something for the CAV other than CAB. Were combat arms but dont get the recognition for it like infantry and medics. Wed do 2-3 combat patrols daily but share an award with cooks

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 6:35 PM

2015-04-06T18:35:49-04:00

All in

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 8:44 PM

2015-04-06T20:44:48-04:00

Holy Crap! I can't believe this is being discussed, the award shouldn't even exist in the first place. Statistics show that the vast majority of casualties are borne by Infantrymen and that the percentage has doubled since WW2. The award criteria are more stringent for the CIB for good reason, the fights we get in are vastly different than a simple IED, IDF, or smattering of small arms fire. Stop pandering to the soft skill Soldiers and axe the stupid award.

Response by SrA Mark Riv made Apr 7 at 2015 7:06 AM

2015-04-07T07:06:56-04:00

If you served your country during hostile action sure

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2015 1:18 PM

2015-04-07T13:18:00-04:00

I could've been awarded one quite a few times. Didn't really pursue it. Looking back, maybe I kinda want one. But it seemed too cheesy at the time to submit paperwork, ask for statements, and chase a badge. I've seen my fair share of action. Now I'm like the soldier that goes to the VA that never went to sick call. Do I really want to go after it now, 5 years later. No! But it would be nice to have a little reminder of those few fights I was engaged in.

Response by SGM Mike Bachini made Apr 7 at 2015 6:41 PM

2015-04-07T18:41:09-04:00

So. If it does go down what is the process of "proving" you earned it? The same three sworn statements, in addition to the next to impossible to get incident report or a Purple Heart (not a fratricide PH mind you). I have see some of the comments on this thread, a laughable one is the "blanket awarding of the CAB to entire brigades". The CAB is extremely hard to get, the award seems to have its share of guardians and subjective issues. So that being said, there would be folks serving who would have a second or possibly a third award of the CAB. For instance, desert storm vet, scud missle attacks that happened. Check that's the first, he/she then goes to Somalia, check that's the second and then take your pic of Iraq or afghan for the third.

Response by SPC James Johnson made Apr 7 at 2015 7:37 PM

2015-04-07T19:37:57-04:00

We def need the CAB, but it shouldn't be handed out like candy. The requirements should be equal to that(or pretty dang close) of the CIB. I can understand being hit by an IED and not having a target to engage afterwards, or a handful of similar situations also.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2015 8:59 PM

2015-04-07T20:59:36-04:00

Good idea. We need to make sure our support elements get the recognition that they deserve. This coming from myself who is an engineer and a recipient of the combat action badge.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2015 10:20 PM

2015-04-07T22:20:22-04:00

Originally, the CAB was a great idea. A way to show that not only combat MOS's can return the friendly (sarcasm) welcome we received from some of the local populace while on a rotation to (pick your flavor). When first established, you needed to be able to provide a reasoning for why you earned it, i.e. attacked, returned fire, didn't die. Gave a sense of pride in wearing it. After a few years, I've seen that earned pride tarnished by undeserving award chasers. OMG! A mortar hit the outer perimeter of the opposite end of the FOB! That resulted in an overseas episode of the Oprah show. You get a CAB, you get a CAB, you get a CAB. In fact, everyone in the vicinity of 5 miles gets a CAB! Yes, I'm exaggerating, but not by much. People whose rooms were hit by rocks from a mortar attack getting a CAB? Really? What I'm getting at is that before you make an award retroactive, make sure it hasn't been tarnished or lost its core value. I earned my CAB, but I'm sad to say I know way too many people who didn't.

Response by SSG Wayne Jumper made Apr 8 at 2015 9:33 AM

2015-04-08T09:33:24-04:00

We were told at the end of Desert Storm, by MG Griffin, that they were looking to award Scouts with the EIB and create a Combat Armor Crewman badge for tankers. Never heard about it again.

Response by SSG Michael Velez made Apr 8 at 2015 11:09 AM

2015-04-08T11:09:22-04:00

I have a big 1st Cavalry patch on my right shoulder and I know what I did when I was there, that's enough for me.

Response by SGT John Rauch made Apr 8 at 2015 12:35 PM

2015-04-08T12:35:24-04:00

I have seen a few posts on this thread that are just plain ignorant. if properly trained, every soldier is a rifleman. personally I like the CAB and I wore it with pride because not every soldier who deploys earns one. granted, many soldiers who were awarded the CAB did not truly earn it. ie. " I got my CAB in KAF because the other side of the base was hit by IDF." both of the MOS's that I held could be considered as "POG" MOS's, but I was a.50 cal gunner and M240B gunner my whole 1st deployment. I was fired upon and returned fire upon the enemy. In the end I was a paratrooper and a rifleman and am proud to have earned the honor regardless of my MOS. would I demand recognition for it? no. would I turn it down? absolutley not.

Response by SGT Bill Goodwin made Apr 8 at 2015 2:06 PM

2015-04-08T14:06:28-04:00

The CAB is a ludicrous gimme award. It's a participation trophy. Why would anyone want that thing?

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 9 at 2015 9:00 AM

2015-04-09T09:00:55-04:00

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member SFC Private RallyPoint Member yous guy voted this idea down, but provide no comments?

Response by 1SG Kenneth Hills made Apr 9 at 2015 12:30 PM

2015-04-09T12:30:45-04:00

This problem should have been fixed back in WWII why would only the infantry get this what’s with Armor, Artillery, Combat engineers now we have Iraq and Afghanistan, now we have MP,s, truck drivers, hell everyone was involved.

Check out this web site

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_badges_of_the_United_States_military

Understand it sucks to be Infantry but it also sucks to be a tanker, a truck driver a Cook when you are deployed and they are shooting at you that SUCKS
By the way yes I am Infantry and Armor.
I’m For it

Unofficial badges of the United States military - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unofficial badges of the United States military are those badges or emblems which do not appear in United States military regulations but are worn or displayed by many individuals serving in the United States military. Unofficial badges may also be bestowed for a one time action or be authorized under the authority of a local commander.

Response by SPC Shawn Kirkpatrick made Apr 9 at 2015 2:37 PM

2015-04-09T14:37:46-04:00

I would like to know how to get my CAB. I have two Purple Hearts and an ARCOM and my unit not got mine to me.

Response by Sgt Frank Rinchich made Apr 9 at 2015 4:32 PM

2015-04-09T16:32:15-04:00

I was not in the Army, but this is a little comical, I was in the Corps from 55 to 59 in 56 was awarded the China service medal, but I am not qualified for the National defense medal, I belong to the VFW which recognizes the China service as a foreign war , but can not join the American Legion because I was not eligible for the National Defense medal .means I could be exposed to life threating situations and not eligible for the National Defense but a man (woman) setting at an office desk in the states is awarded the Defense medal because of a time period. Because of using time periods instead of actual involvement makes a lot of badges and or medals nothing more then colors on you chest.
By the way just because I do not have the Defense medal I can not wear my dress blues at national ceremonies , I belong to the Marine Corps League which was legislated by congress 76 years ago. And any one awarded the defense medal or retired , can wear their blues at ceremonies.

Response by 1SG Dale Sanford made Apr 9 at 2015 7:13 PM

2015-04-09T19:13:17-04:00

I think this is a good idea if there is a set standard such as was used for the CIB before the CAB was created. I was a 1SG of a Route Clearance Company in Iraq and had several Engineers not awarded the CAB because they did their job and found IEDs instead of them finding them. It didn't make sense that the Brigade Commanders had the authority to set their own standards. I also believe that there should not be promotion points awarded so we stop CAB hunting.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Apr 9 at 2015 10:13 PM

2015-04-09T22:13:32-04:00

The old saying" what's good for the goose is good for the gander" WHY NOT, equality for all!

Response by CPL Rob Stephenson made Apr 10 at 2015 5:01 PM

2015-04-10T17:01:34-04:00

I agree it should be dated farther back then just OIF/OEF. Those men and women deserve to be recognized just an much as we do(OIF/OEF veterans)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 1:02 AM

2015-04-13T01:02:38-04:00

I don't have a problem with the CAB personally, so long as it is awarded (not given) to the right people and that the criteria is met as stated in the regulation. I see there are a lot of people arguing over the validity of this badge, which in my opinion should be another topic altogether. The question at hand is whether or not the CAB should be retroactively awarded for previous conflicts.

I believe that the award should not be awarded retroactively for the simple fact that the logistics needed and manpower to ensure that it is done properly would be monumentally wasteful, especially in a modern Army that is focusing on reducing the force and appropriating resources elsewhere.

The Army has always been good at throwing money at projects that serve little or no use for the organization as a whole, and I believe this to be one of them. We need to focus more on the Army we have now and how we're going to move forward as a force rather than petty things such as this in my opinion.

Response by SFC Trevor Sauders made Apr 15 at 2015 11:21 AM

2015-04-15T11:21:34-04:00

The CAB is a bullshit award to make everyone feel good. As an Infantryman I truly hate those who say "when is was I in Iraq I was infanrty". There is much more to being a infantry man than patroling, or exchanging fire with the ememy. How many of those called infantrymen and dig a defence, or set in an anti-armor ambush, set in a patrol base, or enter an clear a trench line. I guess my point is before the GWOT 11B had to learn so many different tasks that are 11B specific. So those of you say I was an 11B during OIF or OEF I throw the bull shit flag. Most of the tasks they where required to do can be found in The Soldiers Manual of COMMON Tasks. It is not my fault you unit did not make sure you could preform those tasks in the above mentioned manual. Besides its your own job to learn that manual front to back. It is for all soldiers regardless of your MOS. So stop calling yourself infantrymen, and call yourself what you are above all else a soldier. As a true infantryman I find very very offensive when I see a window sticker saying Infantilleryman. The CIB is awarded to those of us 11B who got into a direct fire fight, exchanging bullet for bullet with the enemy, not being a Fobbit who had a mortar explode 300 yds away while in your hooch.

Response by SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT made Apr 16 at 2015 10:33 AM

2015-04-16T10:33:19-04:00

I was in Somalia for many violent events e.g. Stadium slaughter and Balkan Market
we referred to ourselves as "Prisoners with Guns".
We were constantly harassed by the enemy on a daily basis with enemy fire and mortars.

Those of us on the UN side were given MSM for our combat time.
When we earned the Bronze Star !

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 9:30 PM

2015-04-16T21:30:06-04:00

im an engineer , i can say i have been shot at with just about every kind of small arms there is and more while setting t barrers up on road sides and doing rapid road repairs and culvert denial missions to route clearance missions to setting a bridge across a river while in contact. we referred to ourselves as "bait for the day" but ill say this, we gave way more hurt then we took, i have many awards that say under fire or direct fire on them i have never gotten a cab and dont really care, im just glad to keep coming home and teaching my soldiers how to do the same.

Response by Sgt Frank Rinchich made May 20 at 2015 5:21 PM

2015-05-20T17:21:41-04:00

I read most all your comments, and compared to my post about the national defense medal , the CIB and CAB fall in about the same category. The national defense was a time period medal, the CAB is a happen to be at the right spot at the right time. But I would say if you are under fire , truck driver, cook, or use a typewriter your in a combat situation you deserve the badge. Yeah I know Marines should keep their noses out of Army business. But not to often we can comment on you guys.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made May 28 at 2015 8:31 AM

2015-05-28T08:31:16-04:00

Yes.

Response by SSG Clayton Blackwell made May 29 at 2015 2:05 PM

2015-05-29T14:05:11-04:00

I am one that would be eligible if it were made retroactive. I suppose if I were still serving it would be nice to get, but I got out in 1998. I have all my ribbons and badges somewhere in the basement. Don't get me wrong, I am proud of my service and the things I did during those 12 years, but at this point another badge to sit in the box down stairs really means nothing to me. I don't have an objection to it, but don't find it necessary either. I bet it would mean even less to older vets.

Response by SSG John Jensen made May 29 at 2015 3:46 PM

2015-05-29T15:46:05-04:00

Task Force Smith - Korea - that debacle is why we have a thing called 'Basic Combat Trng'
Every one on that mission deserves one

I have a very good friend who was a fwd observer for the field arty in Vietnam who definitely deserves one

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2015 8:11 PM

2015-06-14T20:11:08-04:00

COL Charles Williams, Sir, I'm having a hard time making a decision on this. I read where you agreed it has been issued on silly instances. I can't recall the CIB, which I earned in Vietnam, ever being given to someone who didn't deserve it, or for a silly reason. You were either an 11 Bravo or you weren't. I have several prestigious medals, but I hold my CIB high above anything I have received. Would these retroactive CAB awards be held to the highest esteem, to them, as the CIB does to me?
I do agree any support MOS, drafted into actual combat, because of the need for more boots on the ground, should receive some type of combat award denoting their bravery and experience as an 11 Bravo. The CAB sounds like it would qualify for that award. It shouldn't be given. It should be earned. If I had the power to give Joe Galloway a CIB, I would. He fought right next to the 1/7th Cavalry and even took pictures while fighting. It's those instances that an award is earned. Someone mentioned soldiers in the wire, far away from the rocketing, or mortars, thought they should get a CAB because they got dust on them or hit by rocks while being in their bunker or whatever, by the incoming. I was an 11Bravo and I gunned on a Huey. But also, our CO thought the 11Bravos should go on patrols at night when they weren't flying. I went on many patrols and was in two firefights, and had to rescued by my own company's helicopters. I also was involved in in supporting the infantry and the artillery when they were being attacked. The retro's, in my opinion, should have been involved in something like that in order to be awarded the CAB, or whatever is mandated for their heroism, while assisting the infantry. I also believe, even its a company clerk, cook, S-4, or whatever, if they are in an 11Bravo company and have to bear arms to defend themselves and kill the enemy, should receive a CIB. I've loaded and helped load stacks of American bodies in my chopper, for fighting until death beside their brothers, and earned everything they were awarded posthumously. That's my thoughts. If I've rambled too much, sorry.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jun 14 at 2015 10:10 PM

2015-06-14T22:10:23-04:00

I think it's a joke. Just let it be as it is. The paper work clog it would create would be extreme, and how would it be proven? Or do we just say everyone in theater gets it?

Response by SGT Thomas Lucken made Jul 17 at 2015 9:48 AM

2015-07-17T09:48:13-04:00

The ones that do really need to get it, seem to be forgotten the most! 19 Series; Tankers and Scouts!!!! As the motto is for Scouts: "Out Front" alone should explain itself!!!!!!

"Garry Owen"

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2015 9:55 AM

2015-07-17T09:55:24-04:00

Why not a ribbon like the Navy and Marine Corps? This way anyone who meets the criteria can get it awarded.

Response by SGT Thomas Lucken made Jul 17 at 2015 9:57 AM

2015-07-17T09:57:48-04:00

To all! Ask those veterans who served on the Korean DMZ from 55 to 91 what it is like to be forgotten! And I am talking ALL MOS's!!!!! Very few ever got any type of combat awards for actions that happen there!!!!

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jul 17 at 2015 10:00 AM

2015-07-17T10:00:16-04:00

I have always thought the Combat Action Badge was something that is just another decoration and something to pacify those crying about Infantry soldier getting an CIB and Medical getting an CMB. Now I want an EAB because I was in and trained to be in action. I think Clothing Sales is really happy.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Jul 18 at 2015 6:06 PM

2015-07-18T18:06:36-04:00

Some would think that I am off my rocker, but yes it should be retroactive to WWII. I would also compare this award to the Navy/MC Combat Action Ribbon and the AF Combat Action Medal.

For those of you that are crying foul, you should study the history behind the Army Awards system. When you do this take a look at the awards and awards process prior to 1900, the period between 1900 and 1916 (MOH Review Board), the WWI awards period, and the WWII awards period. Then take a look at the more current changes and reviews of the awards system that have and have tried to correct inequalities in that system. One historical item that you should consider in the debate, is that at one point when there were only two awards available that the one award was limited to PVTs, no NCOs or Officers allowed, the other award was all ranks. You should also take a look at your own complaints about the award system and your reasoning behind your complaints. One example that you should think about and look at are the current complaints about 'undeserved' awards based on rank and or position. Though I believe that there is some validity about the complaint about the politically correct type statements about everybody gets a trophy / award syndrome.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2017 1:31 AM

2017-11-06T01:31:51-05:00

I always thought the Combat Patch, was enough. The Army certainly seems to be the "everyone gets a trophy" service. As an example, look at the Marine Corps' different dress uniforms. So clean, with the Eagle Globe and Anchor emblem on the collar, ribbons, skill and qualification badges, & ribbons, that's it. Not the Army, we are festooned with unit crests, green tabs, DUI's, US and Branch insignia, and a combat patch emblem on the pocket. Now getting back to the CAB, which is a modern rip-off of the German (Nazi) Army's close combat badge from World War II, which is a K98 bayonet and a potato masher hand-grenade, with a wreath, which was awarded for, yes, you guessed it, close combat, eye-ball to eyeball fighting. As you know, the CAB is the modern M9 bayonet, along with a M67 Hand grenade, with a wreath. The CIB is a musket. Why we didn't go with a musket bayonet and a flaming bomb to match the CIB I'll never know. The funny thing is, 90% of troops that get the CAB, never touch a hand grenade in combat, and are rarely issued a bayonet (too dangerous / expensive, Joe or Josephine might cut themselves or their buddy, or they might lose it and have to do a statement of charges or a FLIPL, best to keep them in the arms room). No, the CAB should be either a musket bayonet and flaming bomb, or maybe what most soldiers have in their hands when they earned the badge...a steering wheel. As far as retroactively awarding it, I'd say go back as far a the start of OEF.

Response by SPC Rob Lewis made Dec 29 at 2017 11:19 AM

2017-12-29T11:19:47-05:00

There are plenty of support personnel who have been put in harm’s way. Back in the 80’s with the terrorist activity in Europe Regan authorized purple hearts for those injured in the bombings.
Would everyone who served in the EU during these times then get the CAB? Lot’s of questions…

Response by PVT Thad Lucken made Dec 29 at 2017 11:44 AM

2017-12-29T11:44:05-05:00

my rage goes through the roof when i read this kind of remf gobbledygook. SPEND THE MONEY ON LIFESAVING, BATTLE WINNING TRAINING AND EQUIPMENT!! not on merit badges and px warrior crap. look at the marines. you get a ribbon. thats it. you dont walk around wearing all that crap. get rid of it. get rid of the rainbow ribbon. all that. look in their file. all that money could be saved and spent on buying ar10's so our troops are killed by stupid roes that enable the tali to sit back with pkms and drop hails of bullets on us. spend that money on brm and battlefield drones that provide overwatch so the enemy cant ambush our patrols. pull your head out of your vain ass and quit playing in the mirror with your dress up swamp thing dandy crap. no one really cares about your patches. can you do pt? can you actually fight? are you doing something better today than yesterday to get your troops home and not maimed by animals in some caveman run s hole? no, youre yapping about uniforms and haircuts and forms. kick you all out and start over.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 11:49 AM

2017-12-29T11:49:03-05:00

As an employee of the Department of Veteran Affairs, I have another perspective that many may not have thought of.
Combat badges are used as a determinant as to whether or not an injury - particularly, PTSD - is service-related. If we retroactively hand out CABs without some sort of criteria to validate actual combat, we will either remove that as a suitable criteria or open up VA Comp to hordes of Veterans who never saw direct action.
This needs to be thought through if implemented, and I think CSM Michael J. Uhlig has as good a place to start as any.

Having said that, isn't this a solution in search of a problem? Excuse me if I have not heard the hew and cry from WWII, Korea, and Vietnam vets looking for a badge decades after the fact.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 12:24 PM

2017-12-29T12:24:32-05:00

I am ok with it.

Response by COL Brian Shea made Dec 29 at 2017 1:05 PM

2017-12-29T13:05:20-05:00

Hmm. Let's recap: You serve(d) in the Armed Forces of the United States. You presumably received incoming fire and maybe even returned said fire. I think that's called doing your J-O-B. Of course if we stopped giving awards for simply doing what is (or should) be expected how could we ever recruit new trainees or retain senior officers/NCOs? Or just maybe we would recruit/retain those with a true desire to selflessly serve a cause higher than themselves.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 1:29 PM

2017-12-29T13:29:58-05:00

Although making the CAB retroactive would be a logistical nightmare - but I do believe that it is something that should be done.

In regards to the award itself -

There are other Soldier outside of the 11B MOS that have been in combat, and that will always be the case. There is no questioning that. While they may not be "Infantrymen" in the traditional sense - they are still Soldiers. It's been quite some time since I went to basic training - but I do distinctly remember them teaching us that you are a Soldier first - your MOS is secondary.

Personally, I feel that the fact that you would deny a Soldier recognition for combat experience based on their MOS is a little asinine. Historically the CIB was created to boost moral within the Infantry Corps and create a prestige in service during WWII. Isn't that exactly what the CAB is intended for in the non-Infantry MOS's? It is a small population of the POG's in the Army that have been awarded a CAB - it distinguishes them from their counterparts who were never exposed to combat. I don't see the issue with that.

You certainly can argue that they were handing out CABs "like candy." But can you be absolutely certain that every 11B wearing a CIB earned it according to the standard? Unfortunately, not everyone in the Army has the integrity to follow the awards process properly - and this goes for any award/badge.

You can make the argument that without the Infantry their would be no Army. But you can make the same argument that without all of the support operations - the Infantry could not function.

I have nothing but respect for the Combat Arms MOS's - I serve in a support function, and have never stated otherwise. I would never want to discredit their service in any way. However, I do find it troubling how quickly some Infantry individuals are willing to discredit mine.

I didn't join to lean a skill that would be useful in the civilian world, or to go to college - I could have done both of those things just fine without the Army. I joined the Army to serve my Country.

In the end - it is important to remember that the Army is structured the way that it is for a reason. We all have out parts to play. We are all Soldiers.

Would you deny a posthumous CAB to a non-Infantryman who was killed in combat fighting next to that 11B? I would hope not. Otherwise we have bigger issues at hand than the logistics of issuing out badges.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 3:51 PM

2017-12-29T15:51:43-05:00

The point of the CAB, is to recognize those who are NOT infantry, who came under either direct or indirect fire. The SAME reason the CIB exists. If you're infantry, you also can earn an EIB, and if you're a medic, EFMB. There is NO EQUIVALENT, nor should there be, for the EIB, and the EFMB. The COMBAT recognition of anyone who was engaged by the enemy is NOT a bad thing. The problem infantry guys have, is they think that earning a badge for a combat action, is exclusive to them! THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY SOLDIERS who FIGHT and MAKE a LIVING, being a direct action type Soldier. I can name at least a dozen MOS's outside of infantry that do DA missions on a very regular, if not MORE frequent basis, than infantry, and who are NOT entitled to earn a CIB, and MANY of those MOS's regularly, and frequently, put their asses on the line BEHIND enemy lines, something the infantry rarely does unless they get overrun or surrounded. The CAB is the perfect way to recognize ALL Soldiers who actually have had to risk their lives, including supporting infantry.

Response by SGT Jim Ramge, MBA made Feb 8 at 2018 4:17 PM

2018-02-08T16:17:43-05:00

They do it for medals, why is a badge any different when it comes to the awards process? LOL @ red tape issues!

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jun 25 at 2018 4:12 PM

2018-06-25T16:12:50-04:00

I stated this in a previous post, the USMC & Navy got it right with the combat service ribbon (or whatever there official name is).

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 11:01 AM

2018-11-15T11:01:40-05:00

I am in favor of it for my son..who was a 19kilo in Iraq in 2003, TF 2-69...but he often was assigned to drive the First Sargent's humvee..on several occasions he dismounted and was engaged in firefights with the infantry assigned to the Task Force...but he doesn't qualify for a CIB..the CAB would recognize those, particularly enlisted personnel, who fought outside if their primary MOS

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Nov 15 at 2018 11:21 AM

2018-11-15T11:21:27-05:00

Why not make all three badges retroactive to 1775?

Response by PVT Mark Zehner made Nov 15 at 2018 5:05 PM

2018-11-15T17:05:56-05:00

I left the Army 30 years ago but to those that still care I say get one!

Response by SFC Bill Hayes made May 28 at 2019 10:29 PM

2019-05-28T22:29:16-04:00

I severed in landclearing Bn in Vietnam.with 62n20 mos,which was heavy equipment operator in a Rome Plow D7E catapilla dozer which thousand acres of jungle, was cleared but because we had heavy equipment operators we weren't eligible for the CIB,these men saw as much combat as the infantry and armor that supported them. I think the CAB would be a right move

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Jun 13 at 2019 12:20 PM

2019-06-13T12:20:32-04:00

I know this answer will get some negative reviews but here goes. No. It originated during a time when everyone needed a touchy feely. Everyone is jealous of the CIB. Only every one can't be Infantry. I am not saying that I haven't recognized the contribution that is required to support the Infantry. I just know that the Infantry's combat situation needs more Recognition. You want a combat specific award? Join the Infantry.

Response by SSG Howard Hicks made Sep 26 at 2019 12:10 AM

2019-09-26T00:10:05-04:00

I’m a DS/DS veteran, I was A 13b at that time, did my job, engaged the enemy multiple times. After the war I joined the ONG, served as a 11b for 8 years. Did a stint in Bosnia. I consider myself Infantry! I never tested for the EIB nor did I earn the CIB. Both are highly desired! But not having them does not diminish my pride in service!!! My actions would have earn the CAB if it had been around at my time of war, I do not feel the need to receive it. It’s abstract to my service timeline. For those that have earned it, I say, “job well done”.

Response by SrA Jared Hall made Nov 20 at 2019 10:17 PM

2019-11-20T22:17:53-05:00

I don’t get the bruised egos here. The CAB literally takes nothing away from the infantry guys. And also, armor, cav, cooks, maintainers, etc. don’t necessarily choose other jobs out of “self-preservation”, but where can I be of more benefit to the overall effort.
Infantry is a combat profession, but not the only one. Maybe the toughest one, but again, not the only one. So why should infantry be recognized for combat service and nobody else?
Yeah most of us enlisted during wartime, including the infantry guys, so we ALL knew the risks that come. How does that mean that only infantry should be recognized for combat service? That logic would more suggest that there be no combat badges, or maybe just one blanket combat award, like every other branch—letting your MOS/AFSC/Rating speak for the conditions in which you served. Why don’t we all quit ragging on each other and support one another because in the end, we all did our part, and we should all be proud of our efforts. Quit one-uping.

Response by SPC Donn Sinclair made Dec 8 at 2019 9:50 PM

2019-12-08T21:50:14-05:00

Retroactive to 1941? What would be the criteria? No disrespect to those who've earned it, (my son's one of them), but expanding eligibility would, IMHO, cheapen it to the level of a participation trophy. Personally, if it's not on my DD-214, I didn't earn it, and don't want it.

Response by SSG Kenneth Ponder made Mar 4 at 2020 12:37 PM

2020-03-04T12:37:32-05:00

Do away with it, its not needed

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Sep 26 at 2020 2:40 AM

2020-09-26T02:40:34-04:00

I think that's going too far. How are they going to document the eligibility of millions of potential recipients. Yes, I can see it if they give it only to those who received Purple Hearts in non-Infantry or Medical MOS's but otherwise it will be more trouble than its worth.

Response by MSG James Devereaux made Jan 9 at 2021 10:41 PM

2021-01-09T22:41:57-05:00

I feel only nauseous. Soldiers and their shiny things... This is all because they were told they were all winners and who was first wasn’t important.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Aug 28 at 2022 10:42 PM

2022-08-28T22:42:08-04:00

Yes, i think so.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2023 7:28 PM

2023-01-20T19:28:09-05:00

While the retroactive plan is a valid and noble cause, the fact of it would be to just give them to everyone and make them even more tarnished than then are already...
The ability to exactly identify and prove those that were not only in DA combat would be difficult, AND that is specifically not the complete criteria for the CAB. The requirement for a CAB is that you are :
1. Personally engaged in Active, Ground Combat; AND
2. You complete an Offensive / Defensive Act while participating in combat operations, engaging, or being engaged by the enemy; AND
3. performing their assigned duties Associated with the unit’s combat mission; AND
4. Battle participation and Purple Heart are not sufficient;
I'd argue that dropping to the dirt doesn't count, IDF hits 20-50-100 meters away doesn't count, but that if you pull your weapon and returned fire in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement , that counts.
CABs (and CIBs) were given away as participation awards by several units over the last 20 years - highly tarnishing them. Specifically, I know a SGM who spent 2 hours in a bunker with no IDF within a click = got a CAB. The whole 2020 Jalalabad Admin unit was in a hard building when the FOB was attacked with no IDF within a half click and never left their desks = all got CABs. Complete failure of the Colonel to read and understand the regulation and criteria - Active, Ground Combat AND Offensive/Defensive Action AND Personally Engaged by or Engaging the Enemy.

PH / IDF / Battle Participation = Not Sufficient.

If DoD wants me to head up the effort with a team of 20 x 42s - I'd be happy to do it, but that also means I am going through all the CABs from 2001 to 2022 and there are going to be a lot of revocations... F

YI, I don't have a CAB and don't want one. I never ended up pulling my weapon in my 38 months down range and therefore can be a completely objective party. ;-)