What Army regulation covers me being forced to use my POV to transport other soldiers for Army duties? Am I required to do it?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 00:53:17 -0400

I haven’t been specifically directed or ordered to transport said soldier but I would like to refuse and I would like to be able to protect myself with facts to be on the safe side

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2023 2:15 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 02:15:46 -0400

I'm going to say there isn't one. Someone please point me out if I'm wrong.

Like there probably isn't a regulation that requires us to own personal cell/smart phones, or personally pay for internet connection at home to have access to Mil e-mail, but it's probably a good idea if one wants to get through life.

However..................... Let's not over think this. I would presume your chain of command has on the books a Government Vehicle. I and Jr enlisted are commonly allowed to use my unit's car quite often.

So let's say there is no regulation, and your chain of command has you use your car. Where your chain of command is going to get crushed is if anything goes wrong, and they didn't have a POV vehicle safety program in place that inspected every single POV in your unit and kept a roster, and made sure each of you in the unit have a valid DL and current insurance.

*********************
So, what I would do as a SPC is just indicate to your chain of command that your car has some safety issues (needs service, or some sort of out of spec item). Of course you've now pegged yourself for not being allowed to have your vehicle on post (pending inspection).

Choose your battles, and ask for the unit's government vehicle and gas card.

Be the SPC that is the go to guy to drive people around in the GOV car and to all the paperwork for the milage and gas card. Or be the SPC that get's assigned range duty at 0400hrs.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2023 6:43 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 06:43:06 -0400

Even if there is a regulation, it's likely an obscure legal/ethical federal policy and it won't do you any good to cite it. It will likely cause eye rolls.

That being said, your local legal team or even the IG will back you if you wanted to push the issue. I've seen it before, Soldiers not wanting to use their POV for something. It's perfectly fine, that's your right. So, if you're sure about this, just bring it up in discussion through your chain of command.

However, do it as a team player. Offer alternatives to the situation. Protecting yourself in this isn't about throwing the book back in the face of your leadership, it's about standing up for yourself while also displaying commitment to the success of others and the willingness to serve.

Remember, this job requires sacrifice. Sometimes that means running into a hail of gunfire to pull someone off the X, and sometimes that means waking up early on our own time to drive someone with our own vehicle to CQ, that is miles away.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Oct 6 at 2023 7:38 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 07:38:48 -0400

There is no such Reg, and certainly no local policy requiring such.
Id guess this is an SM that lives near you that has no legal mode of transport and has cited that as to why they cannot get to the required place of duty on time or at all.. the COC is thinking "Well heck, Isom lives right next door, SPC Dingleberry can ride with him.

I was taught by a Senor NCO I much respected, unless it's illegal or immoral, don't say no,,,, Instade let the leader know what it will take to make it a yes.

My solution to the scenario I made up and laid out above?
"Marqueze, need to give SPC Dingleberry a ride into PT in the morning and home after the last formation"
"Ok 1SG I can do that"
"Dingleberry, meet me at my car in the morning, I'll be leaving for PT at 03:30, Text him the same info"
At 03:30:01 depart for work.
"Marquez, where is Dingleberry?"
"He did not show up for the ride"
12 hours later
"Marquez give Dingleberry a ride home"
"Ok 1SG"
"Marquez, why are we going this way....Away from our apartment complex? "
"Oh, Im going to a laundry mat in the next town over, doing 2 weeks of laundry, and washing all my TA-50...Oh by the way, I am leaving for PT at 03:15 in the morning, be there if you want a ride"

Ride-sharing will be terminated by Dingleberry or the COC soon enough......And if I was your 1SG, I'd not even be mad at ya.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Oct 6 at 2023 8:02 AM

LTC Kevin B. — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 08:02:48 -0400

You will probably want to get verification on this (Legal Assistance Office, IG, etc.), but I think you're on solid ground, although a reasonable argument can be made to "pick and choose your battles". This assumes that you're not leaving out pertinent details on your situation.

Look at AR 58-1, "Management, Acquisition, and Use of Motor Vehicles", dated 2020.

From the reg:

Summary: "This regulation prescribes Department of the Army policies, responsibilities, and procedures for the management, acquisition, and use of Army-owned, Army-leased, or otherwise controlled non-tactical vehicles. It implements DODM 4500.36 and DODI 4500.36."

Your command can argue that your POV is not an "Army-owned, Army-leased, or otherwise
controlled non-tactical vehicle", so the regulation does not apply to your situation. Read into the regulation and you'll find a great nugget that supports your position.

Applicability: "This regulation applies to the Regular Army, the Army National Guard/Army National Guard of the United States, and the U.S. Army Reserve, unless otherwise stated. Also, it applies to all Department of the Army Civilian employees, foreign nationals, and contractors employed by Department of the Army."

I don't know your status, but this rules out any command argument that "the reg doesn't apply to us". It applies to AD, USAR, and NG.

From Chapter 2-1:
"b. When allocating resources for transportation missions, planning begins with a determination that motor vehicle transportation is essential for the performance of an official mission. When such a determination is made, the following methods will be considered in the order shown, subject to their availability and capability to meet the mission:
(1) Scheduled Government bus transportation service.
(2) Specially scheduled Government-leased or Government-owned bus transportation.
(3) Government-owned or Government-leased NTVs.
(4) Voluntary use of privately-owned vehicle (POV) on a reimbursable basis.
(5) Taxicab on a reimbursable basis."

In the absence of guidance that they can require you to use your POV to transport other soldiers for a valid mission requirement, this reg indicates that you must have volunteered to use your POV, and that you must be reimbursed.

Also, there's a fiscal law argument against this because using your POV for free (assuming no reimbursement) is an in-kind donation to your unit, and that is against the law (it's called "supplementing an appropriation"). This is a very minor violation of the law, but it still may very well be considered a violation. For example, a billionaire can't donate money to build a new military hospital in support of an installation's healthcare mission. Congress considers that a violation of appropriation law because if they wanted you to have a new hospital, they would have appropriated money for a new hospital. The absence of the appropriated money means they do not authorize a new hospital. At a much lower level, the same thing goes if your command tells you to use your personal funds to buy fuel for a military HMMWV ("supplementing an appropriation"). Likewise, a troop can't make an in-kind donation in support of an operational mission, such as being required to use your POV (compensated or otherwise). The amounts are all very different, but they are still violations.

Again, verify this, but this reg seems to support your position.

Response by Cpl Vic Burk made Oct 6 at 2023 8:05 AM

Cpl Vic Burk — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 08:05:52 -0400

We all have to do things in life whether civilian or military that we don't want to do. All I can say is, choose your battles wisely. You may be right but is it worth it to be right? If you do transport I would expect some sort of compensation by someone for at least the gas expended to do this.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Oct 6 at 2023 9:52 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 09:52:45 -0400

As far as I know, like pretty much everyone has said, there is no regulation covering it. AR 600-20 gives Commanders a whole HELL of a lot of leeway to get the job done. A Commander could theoretically make an argument there regarding orders, but as already pointed out, the lawfulness of that order may be questionable.

But let me turn it around.... why do you not want to transport this Soldier?

If it is purely financial, that can be solved by charging gas money. And. O, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you are not using it as a money making scheme - that gas money goes in the tank.

If it is time, then if it is on "duty hours," you have no true objection - your time belongs to the Army. If it is asking you to do EXTRA during after hours (not just take Snuffy back to the SAME Barracks you live in) that's a bit different. In that case, you may want to ask (and if you pitch it right, will likely get) some kind of time compensation. Maybe you get a three-day once a month, or a late work call every Friday, or some other such. The level of comp will depend on the level of sacrifice. But even then, remember that the Army life *is* sacrifice, so be careful how you pitch it, and be reasonable I your expectations.

If it is a case of "I don't like the guy," my answer is "tough titties." Unless there is a history of bona fide (i.e. reported) harassment, assault, or abuse, then suck it up, Buttercup. That is your battle buddy, for better or worse. You BOTH need to find a way to get along.

If it is a case of respect for you / your rules / your vehicle (e.g. PVT Snuffy smokes in your non-smoking car), then you need to bring that to the attention of whoever is asking / forcing you to transport Snuffy. Hey, Sarge, I got no problem giving Snuffy a ride as long as he respects my property. He has a history of smoking in my vehicle, even though I have asked him not to and told him directly it is not allowed in my car. If you are going to order me to transport Snuffy, can you please also order him not to smoke in or around my car? Thanks. (Or take his trash with him, not eat in car, leave the radio alone, etc.)

Bottom line is that it will be a very rare case that you will be given a lawful order to use your POV for military purposes (and this would be a military purpose). But even without a lawful order, and just a request, you should probably go ahead and do so because Soldiers take care of each other. If you won't give a battle buddy a ride in Garrison, what does that say about what you won't do far a battle buddy when things get much, much tougher? If there are specific barriers or obstacles to giving the ride, remove the barriers or navigate the obstacles instead of just refusing.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Oct 6 at 2023 10:42 AM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 10:42:20 -0400

I had a similar situation but not exactly the same. I was told by my 2LT that I was going to be required to inspect my soldier’s vehicle at his off-post home. That was because he used the excuse the vehicle was broken and that’s why he hadn’t been to the motorpool on time. Which was odd because his wife was seen driving into the PX about 2 hours afterwards.
We handled it within our platoon. It was a simple lie and cost him his promotion recomendation for SPC.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2023 11:28 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 11:28:43 -0400

This happened to me once right after I got to my last duty station.

I had just gotten home. It was late. I had to get up in six hours and do it all again, I had not eaten yet, and I was tired. Then the phone rang. My squad leader, MSgt Delgado, needed a ride to get his car out of the shop.

Man, I was pissed. I had just gotten my boots off. I had PCSd in to Tyndall AFB just a couple of months prior and I barely knew MSgt Delgado. I saw him twenty minutes ago on base and he never said anything about needing a ride. This was going to take at least an hour. Surely, there was another NCO, or an E4 with a car, he could call.

“Roger that, Master Sergeant. I’m en route.”

I didn’t get any time off for that. I didn’t get coined or a letter of appreciation. He said thanks that night and it never came up again. But it went a long way with leadership in establishing my dependability to the team and my commitment to my team members.

I’ve had to drive people home when they called at 0200 because they were too drunk to get home safely. I’ve had to bail team members out of jail, or drive them to the hospital. I had to counsel a pregnant Airman who didn't trust her new squad leader and didn't feel comfortable going to the First Sergeant. I never thought they were abusing our relationship, or taking advantage of me. It just became necessary sometimes as an NCO to take care of troops after duty hours.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Oct 6 at 2023 11:31 AM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 11:31:16 -0400

There is a lot of context missing here. WHY are you being asked to transport other soldiers in your POV? IF it's a case of SPC Sackocrap and PFC Fecesforbrains doesn't have a way to get from the same barracks you all live in to the same duty location you all work, I can understand why your CoC would want you to help fellow soldiers. They should be kicking in gas money to compensate. IF it's a case of the CoC expects you to provide transpo for official duty/training/unit function, etc then you should be entitled to file for travel reimbursement (I "think" AR 58-1 is the applicable pub). The unit also should be required to provide NTV resources (also covered under AR 58-1). My brain is a bit fuzzy on the details since it's been over 15 years since I had to deal with this type of situation. LTC Kevin B. has listed some really great advice on this topic. I recommend reading his response in detail.

And as others have already said....Pick the hill you want to die on. COULD you make a stink about having to haul PVT Sadsack around? Sure. COULD you also label yourself as a whinny individual who doesn't want to be a team player? Also, sure. As with most things DoD (and 'life' in general), the method you use to approach the issue at hand can go a long way to an acceptable resolution.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Oct 6 at 2023 12:41 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 12:41:09 -0400

If you have a valid reason for not wanting to transport a fellow soldier, simply state your reasons to whoever is asking/ordering/directing.
If your reasoning is sound you should be okay. If you are just being contrary it will not reflect well on you as a Soldier.
If you were to share your logic for refusing I'm sure we could give you better guidance.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2023 12:47 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 12:47:09 -0400

Is it a requirement? That Is a hazy line. Do to the fact of sponsorship. Some soldiers require to be given a ride. If they are new or don't have a vehicle yet. Due to the fact of they don't know the installation yet. So as to someone who knows the installation it would be imperative for the sponsor to give the soldier a ride or at least ride with them (if they have a vehicle) as for it being mandatory though. That's a fat NO. Yes everyone has to get to formations, work, chow (if they choose too), and back home or barracks. I would say if you aren't the sponsor it is not your responsibility it is the NCO's responsibility aka team leader/squad leader to ensure that their soldiers get to the right place, right time, in the right uniform. However they can always just ask their team/squad for someone who lives close by to the soldier to give them a ride. As we all are suppose to work together. One of the purposes of the army isn't suppose to just a be a job but be a close cohesive team like a family. But it often doesn't go that way. But if you aren't the sponsor you can always just say no due it being your POV.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2023 1:50 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 13:50:52 -0400

There is no regulation. I have dealt with this. You have to use common sense. There are times when you will see a Soldier need to go to an appointment and they don't have a vehicle. The way I like to approach it is to ask if someone can give them a ride. I really haven't had a issue with it. But if there was a situation were the Soldier didn't want to then there is nothing that can happen to you. If you were to say you don't feel comfortable with riding with an unknown person in your car then your leader can't make you. But this comes down being a team player.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Oct 7 at 2023 6:42 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Sat, 07 Oct 2023 06:42:05 -0400

~~ LMAO ~~
Sorry Folks But I Served From 1961 - 1965.
And This Manner Of Sh*t Gives Me A Chuckle.
I SWEAR, Over The Years I've Watched Our Military Go From Tough
And Taking Orders, Doing What Your Told, And Sucking It Up,
To Looking Like You're Holding A Girl Scout Cookie Drive.
Everyone Want's Their Rights With No Responsibilities.
"But I Don't Wanna Do That Job, Let Someone Else Do It".
Whining Every Time They're Ordered To Do Something Outside Of Their Specialty.
"It's Not My Job"...... How Do Ya Run That Place?~ Ya Can't Be Very Efficient This Way!~

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2023 3:15 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Oct 2023 15:15:46 -0400

I say you cannot be ordered to transport anyone in your POV. So many ways for you to be placed into legal and/or financial jeopardy. Examples: Collision with passenger injuries and passengers demand compensation and/or sue you. Police traffic stop and one of your passengers is in possession of contraband item(s) and shoves item(s) towards you to get rid of it and law enforcement thinks that it's yours. See what I'm saying. So many possible detrimental scenarios. Whole can of worms could be opened up. Insurance company raises your rates because of something that happened and you didn't even want those people in your vehicle. Think ahead. And if you don't think anything bad can or will happen trust me it can.

Response by SMSgt Bob W. made Nov 11 at 2023 10:32 PM

SMSgt Bob W. — Sat, 11 Nov 2023 22:32:15 -0500

where are you taking them to? The doctor, PT, training, the Exchange? Be specific!! Erik has a good comment.

Response by SFC Rollie Hubbard made Dec 28 at 2023 5:58 PM

SFC Rollie Hubbard — Thu, 28 Dec 2023 17:58:03 -0500

I have never heard of any regulations that require you to do this.

Response by SSG Dwight Thompson made Dec 29 at 2023 11:38 AM

SSG Dwight Thompson — Fri, 29 Dec 2023 11:38:47 -0500

The publication is call BB 101. You might have to catch a ride wit that SM one day if your car breaks down, and you need to get to work, or to the store.

Response by SPC Eric Gill made Dec 30 at 2023 11:43 PM

SPC Eric Gill — Sat, 30 Dec 2023 23:43:00 -0500

I was threatened with an article 15 when I refused to donate to the cfc. I went to the post JAG they informed me that I could lawfully refused a direct order in regards to the use of my personal property or pay. I would recommend reaching out to your local JAG. They will be able to get you on the right path.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2023 10:58 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 22:58:08 -0500

Doing so puts you in a dangerous legal situation insurance wise. Therefore no one in your COC should be placing you in this situation. Depending on the state you may need additional licenses over and above your standard lic. If your insurance company learns what you are doing they most likely will terminate your insurance.

Go to JAG and get advice.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2024 4:07 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jan 2024 16:07:25 -0500

UCMJ Articke 92. You can not protect youself. You can go to the IG and EO, but the Commnder has to listen to neither. Been there done that. Lost my career because of it. Yes you can then appeal to the Board of Corrections, but they normally just deny and make some excuse why they denied. Sure you can take it to court - good luck with that, US Amy lawyers will threaten and intimidate you lawyer, foce him or her to drop the case- after which you will pick it up and refile just to have the judge deny your in pauperis forma. Because after an illegal sparation dont we all have the money to fight the US Army in court? Then after the courts -you can talk to your Congressperson who will do an inquiry (multiple in my case) after which the US Army will send up a bunch of lies about you, to which - regardless of eyewitness statements or documented evidence your Congress person will send you a form letter saying "sorry we could not help ya." "Don't let the door hit ya in the keister on the way out," or some semblance thereof. Then you can go across the country and try and get it to go public by having your family call and email every investigative reporter you can find the contact info for in America. When not one person returns you family's phone calls or emails, you can always write a names named nonfiction book like I had to in order to let the public know that US Army does not honor their contracts with young officers and will give unfollowable (also known as illegal) orders to someone that they do not like even though records show that this person was doing well in their course and otherwise there would be no other way to ruin that person's life by ending his or her career just because. So yeah. No way to protect youself against that if you are given an order. If you dont follow it, your career is toast. Still fighting for mine after 17-18 years and counting now.

Response by SFC William Linnell made Jan 1 at 2024 5:16 PM

SFC William Linnell — Mon, 01 Jan 2024 17:16:57 -0500

Lots of scenarios. Plain and simple, your chain of command can't make you pick up, take here or there with your POV. They can ask you to do it and you can say, No. If you do make it clear that the person will have to pay you for the use of you and your vehicle.

Now if it comes to the point that they try to force you, Open Door Policy before going to IG. Now while on duty, your 1SG and CO have humves or an assigned vehicle to use on post. Their assigned drivers can drive Soldiers around during the duty day. Even the BN as a driver, Staff Duty Runner.
To be honest, that's a responsibility of your PSG and NCOs in your PLT. Again, they can't legally order you to do this.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2024 9:30 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 21:30:37 -0500

I encountered this on Active Duty. Shitbirds that lived off post and didn't have vehicles. I lived on post. On one instance I went to the 1SG and got him moved on Post. I did go thru FLL and PSG who thought I acted irrationally and I got counseled. However 1SG was on my side. I will only be a team player to a certain degree. I will give anyone a ride but if you aren't gonna drive move on post. Also the shitbird was married but his wife was alway out of town allegedly. This was brought up but I don't know if it was ever investigated. As a leader you do more for making subordinates solve their own problems.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2024 10:11 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 22:11:41 -0500

My philosophy, I will provide a necessary ride when needed but make it clear you will not be a chauffeur. If they expect it routinely as whoever tasked you to start a DA6 for rides.

Response by SSG Rick Miller made Jan 3 at 2024 9:51 PM

SSG Rick Miller — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 21:51:32 -0500

Hold on there, high speed. You haven't been specifically directed or ordered to do this, but you want to refuse to do it? Something ain't adding up. Why refuse something you haven't been specifically directed or ordered to do? Again, it doesn't add up. If the CoC asked you to do it, sure you can say no. If they ask why, lay out your reasons. But, and this is a huge but, if they don't think your reasons are legit, you just labelled yourself as not willing to help out a fellow troop. You want to hang stripes instead of the sham shield? Refusing to lend a helping hand ain't the way to do it. Pick the hill you're willing to die on, but save it for a mountain, not an anthill.

Response by CPO David Ransom made Jan 3 at 2024 10:47 PM

CPO David Ransom — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 22:47:07 -0500

I'm an old fogey and retired, so haven't checked in a while, but there might be another issue here. You are using your POV for work. Unless your insurance company knows this and you pay the higher premium, there's a possibility that if something happens during these trips and your insurance finds out, they might not cover you. In cases of liability, this could be huge. Your Service might have forms to fill out to cover, but you could end up in a paperwork nightmare.