What do you all think about NCO Academies giving students a copy of their DA 705 from the APFT they take when they come to school?

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 08:54:03 -0500

I'm a small group leader for SLC (ANCOC for you old timers) and I think students should be able to use their APFT from NCOPD if they choose to do so.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 9:00 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 09:00:22 -0500

Back when I went to ANCOC, they gave me a copy only because I asked.
From the perspective of a BN with about 40-50 NCOs attending NCOES in an average year, it sure would be convenient if the cadre handed the students a copy of the DA 705 with the DA 1059.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 9:01 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 09:01:56 -0500

Absolutely. It's a record APFT.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 9:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 09:05:59 -0500

It seems silly they don't. After all, if you fail it, it's used against you.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 9 at 2019 9:19 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 09:19:36 -0500

When I was in service it was part of the graduation packet for our Soldiers, they received credit where appropriate. Thank you for your service.

Response by CSM Danny S. made Jan 9 at 2019 9:20 AM

CSM Danny S. — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 09:20:45 -0500

Well this is basically a diagnostic APFT and does nothing to meet your APFT requirements just like the 1 or 2 tests you took before school. So it makes no difference if you hand it out.

Response by SSG Richard Stevens made Jan 9 at 2019 9:20 AM

SSG Richard Stevens — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 09:20:51 -0500

Yes they should

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 9:49 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 09:49:06 -0500

Absolutely. Your reference is AR 350-1, 3.3 c. APFT Soldiers attending the following PME schools and courses: SSC, USASMA, Joint Special Operation Forces Senior Enlisted Academy (JSOFSEA), CCC, CGSOC, WOAC, WOILE, WOSSE, NLC, ALC, SLC, MLC, and BLC, will be administered the APFT (for record) as a course requirement. Proponents of functional training courses may require an
APFT, as either an entrance or graduation requirement, regardless of their length.

Response by SGT Mark Estes made Jan 9 at 2019 10:11 AM

SGT Mark Estes — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 10:11:42 -0500

I don’t think it matters either way. However, it did seem like every school I went to was more strict with the process compared to the way I have seen some units conduct the APFT.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 10:15 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 10:15:55 -0500

Every school house I have attended, provided me with a copy of my DA form 705. I think it's silly that we question the standards of another proponent/ unit in regards to fitness. If we have no confidence in NCOs and officers of other organizations, our Army cannot possibly succeed. Furthermore, multiple administrations of APFTs don't drastically change scores, but they do require unnecessary time and man power, distracting from more significant training and sustainment responsibilities.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 11:14 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 11:14:14 -0500

1SG Private RallyPoint Member as you can see from the responses Army urban legends live on. It is a record. There is no school house record, versus unit record.
Ask yourself these questions:
Does AR 350-1 direct a record APFT be given for the course?
If an NCO fails the initial and subsequent record APFT for SLC, what is the reason they failed the course?
If an NCO fails the record APFT at SLC, should they be flagged? AR 600-8-2 does not distinguish any difference between a school house APFT or unit APFT, only failure of a record APFT.
If still in doubt, and to help the NCOs, contact the Proponent.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 12:05 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 12:05:23 -0500

Yes I agree as well. Maybe at the end of the course they should take another Pat test to see where they stand as well.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 1:45 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 13:45:21 -0500

Think smarter, not harder. If you want to do what's best for the Soldier then you already know the answer.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Jan 9 at 2019 4:16 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 16:16:57 -0500

I agree with you SFC Alberg if they passed the APFT when they attended the academy they shouold be allowed to use it.
Our unit conducts APFT's before the individual even leaves for a Professional Development School as they didn't want to embarrass the soldier or their unit if they didn't pass the entry APFT test. Miss this test and you were sent back to your home duty station.
You had to pass the annual APFT in our unit to even be considered as a candidate for NCOPD.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 8:21 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 20:21:23 -0500

SFC, I think that would be great. I scored better at BLC .

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 11:35 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 23:35:57 -0500

I don’t believe the NCOPD APFT should be used back the unit for several reasons. First, the NCO will already have a valid record APFT on file as a prerequisite (30 to 60 days prior to attending the school). Second, if the NCO fails the APFT at the school, they cannot be initiated for a Flag Code “J” back at their unit - though they can be removed from the school after the second failure and subsequently flagged under a different code for that back at their unit. Third and lastly, this creates a break in the chain of custody of the APFT Card - and unfortunately will undoubtedly lead to falsified and “pencil whipped” APFTs to increase promotion points. Just my insight from three sides as a previous ALC SGL, S3 NCOIC of an NCOA, and now 1SG.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2019 3:15 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 03:15:40 -0500

They should be able to since they are now record apft's and are required to be put into dtms. 350-1 para 3-13. -SGL myself

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2019 2:49 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 14:49:01 -0500

In the majority of instances that the same individual should have a PT test from their own unit as a requirement to attend the course. If the individual and their unit are doing what they are supposed to do they would have a record PT test and most times that PT test is better than the one taken at school.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2019 6:39 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Jan 2019 18:39:50 -0500

I think it's good that they do. You figure, Soldiers will take at least 2 APFT test before they hit school grounds. We all know the company & BN both want to give you separate APFT to ensure there is no pencil whipping..... But I've never had issues with my unit not counting the school house APFT..... 1. A record is a record regardless who administers. 2. The school house is straight by the book, no pencil whipping......

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2019 5:32 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 05:32:13 -0500

Any given day you should be able to pass the test. It shouldn't be a big deal to take another, however I feel a test given at an NCO academy should be valid, it may be your peers, but you are unlikely to be best pals with the people giving the test, unlike what can/does happen at the unit level.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 11:53 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 11:53:58 -0500

I know for the National Guard, Soldiers must complete an APFT prior to the course. I see no issue with allowing them to either use that APFT or the NCOES APFT for record. Why Not!?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2019 6:32 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 18:32:02 -0400

While the NCOA does not have command authority, if a Soldier is dropped from course for failed APFTs, can the commander flag the Soldier? Yes. Can the commander flag for any actions that occur while at the school? Yes. All it takes is dedicated leadership to follow all of the ARs and enforce known standards. When I was the 1SG of MP ALC, if a student failed their APFT both times, I forwarded a copy of the 1059 and the 705 to their chain of command If the commander wants to flag them, it’s their prerogative to do so. I would always stand up for the sanctity of our process with anyone outside of our NCOA. Anyone saying they wouldn’t trust our process needs to realize we took pride in what we accomplished daily. Doing the little things right means we get the big stuff right too.