What do you do when a soldier refuses to listen to your directions?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 04:53:19 -0400

This is a general question. If you have a soldier who refuses to listen to you, as a non-commissioned officer, do you simply put the incident on paper?

Example given- A soldier has unauthorized sunglasses on in a formation. You tell the soldier to take the sunglasses off. He/she refuses.

On the 4856, do you recommend for UCMJ? I've gone thru 600-20 and cannot find anything regarding this

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jun 12 at 2016 5:19 AM

SSG Trevor S. — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 05:19:15 -0400

SPC Joe Snuffy, 12 June 2016 at approximately 0630 you refused to remove sunglasses after being given an order to do so. Your actions place you in violation of ARTICLE 91. INSUBORDINATE CONDUCT TOWARD WARRANT OFFICER, NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER, OR PETTY OFFICER. For these actions I am recommending to the commander that you recieve punishment under Article 15 of the UCMJ.
Kiss of death statement currently in use by your JAG.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 6:03 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 06:03:17 -0400

1. You remove the sunglasses and crush them beneath your feet.
2. Feel Private Snuffy's dreams being crushed there as well.
3. Revel in your awesomeness as Private Snuffy cries about his $200 Ray Bans, knowing that is the last time he will question your authoritay!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 7:02 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 07:02:13 -0400

"Note: Only commanders are authorized to administer punishment as a result of due process. Leaders with general military authority are not authorized to punish, but can administer counseling or conduct corrective training. If a Soldier perceives that he/she is being punished, you may have overstepped your authority and may be subject to disciplinary action. An example of what is not corrective training is; “PVT Joe, you were late for formation, so you will do 500 push-ups starting at 1800.” TC 7-22.7 "Ensuring the proper conduct of Soldiers is a function of command"

To answer your question No do not recommend ucmj that is for the commander. And if that is what you want do no corrective action. THink about it this way,... When PVT snuffy gets read the article 15 from the commander he gets to seek legal counsel, if that lawyer can review and find any loopholes in the case like improper authority was exercised or the plan of action constituted punishment the case can be thrown out and your commander won't be able to do anything further. A good rule of thumb is to write a counseling just describing the facts and ask for review from 1SG before you give it to the soldier.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jun 12 at 2016 7:13 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 07:13:20 -0400

GENERAL MILITARY AUTHORITY

3-27. General military authority originates in oaths of office and enlistment, law, rank structure, traditions, and regulations. This broad-based authority allows leaders to take appropriate corrective actions whenever a member of any armed service, anywhere, commits an act involving a breach of good order or discipline. Army Regulation 600-20, Army Command Policy, states this specifically, giving commissioned, warrant, and noncommissioned officers authority to "quell all quarrels, frays, and disorders among persons subject to military law." The purpose of this authority is to maintain good order and discipline.

What DID I do? I told the SM to remove them,, they did.
The only SM I ever had say no to an order, to get inside after picking him up from the MP's...He refused to move, I insisted, he refused, I assisted physically, he resisted physically, I put him on the ground and explained that he would be moving under his own power or with help inside the building and fighting was only going to cause a short delay with one of us getting hurt more than the other.. As i was on top in a dominant position in control of a locked joint, he elected to refrain from further physical attack and move into the building on his own power.

Response by SGT Brian Wall made Jun 12 at 2016 8:02 AM

SGT Brian Wall — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 08:02:17 -0400

Remove them yourself. Initiate corrective training.

Response by SGT Robert George made Jun 12 at 2016 8:12 AM

SGT Robert George — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 08:12:22 -0400

short timers were the worst a couple times in the motor pool I took them behind the tank and wrestled them to the ground ..I didnt care how big they were they were going down !!!

Response by SGT Connor Haynes made Jun 12 at 2016 9:25 AM

SGT Connor Haynes — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:25:24 -0400

Step one remove soldiers sunglasses. Step two administer extra duty assignments that inflict pain into soldiers body. Step three fill out paper work on soldier so that you have a paper trail to use in further punishing them next time they decide not to follow a direct order from a NCO.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 9:41 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:41:31 -0400

Soldiers refusing to follow orders? This is were the army is going. Bring back wall to wall counseling and these problems won't happen nearly as much.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 10:00 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 10:00:05 -0400

AR670-1 covers sunglasses. Reference the paragraph in your counseling. It does so it is commanders discretion as to whether or not they can be worn in formation so I would verify that the commander does not authorize it. Once I have those facts I would bring the soldier in and explain it in detail in the counseling and inform the soldier that sunglasses ARE authorized just NOT in your company's or platoons formation. I would also inform the soldier that you gave him or her a lawful order according to regulations and order of the commander and that failing to follow an order in the manner he or she did is blatantly disrespectful and as such I would recommend UCMJ 7 days

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Jun 12 at 2016 10:05 AM

1LT William Clardy — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 10:05:30 -0400

I'm not sure that I have a good answer for your scenario, SSG Private RallyPoint Member. The last time I dealt with that situation (although it was with a soldier enroute to the motor pool, not in formation), the outcome included getting 2 of my teeth reattached (after a dental assistant policed them off the basement floor) and UCMJ action being initiated (in the form of a summary court martial). I'm assuming you're looking for a happier ending than that.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jun 12 at 2016 10:05 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 10:05:45 -0400

No, I would confiscate the glasses, and let him, or her know they could have the m at the end of the day, a/and then bring them up on report.

Response by Capt Michael Greene made Jun 12 at 2016 10:06 AM

Capt Michael Greene — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 10:06:12 -0400

I'm flumuxed and confused that the question exists! Surely the Army has taught you the basics of discipline.
If it was just a problem with being out of uniform, I would ask him immediately right there if he had written authorization to wear sunglasses in formation. If not, simply say "Remove your sunglasses."
If the soldier refused your order, then document this and refer it to your First Sergeant. Extra Military Instruction seems appropriate.
Any second offense of any kind: Document it and refer it to your commander. NJP is an option.
I can't imagine there would be a third offense. If there is, he'd be going home so he could explain to his father that he couldn't hack it being in the Army.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 10:09 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 10:09:23 -0400

Wait until the formation is over then have a one-on-one conversation with that Soldier.

Response by SGT Michael Smith made Jun 12 at 2016 11:28 AM

SGT Michael Smith — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:28:48 -0400

Hell yes , respect your chain of command , I would rip them shades off and rub them under my ass so next time he puts them on he smell them , now try to wear unauthorized eye attire in my formation again

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 12:05 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:05:14 -0400

Yes put it on a 4856 once you can prove a pattern then recommend for article 15. If it continues then recommend for a chapter.

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Jun 12 at 2016 12:22 PM

MSgt John McGowan — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:22:43 -0400

SGT-- I would have dismissed him from the formation and tell him to stand in a certain place. Then we would have a come to Jesus meeting and a statment written up. Once you do not take action on something he is one up on your authority. Not where you want to be. He had a whole formation there to see a weakness. As a old AF MSgt I would not have removed them. Maybe the Army is different.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 12:37 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:37:06 -0400

If you have a soldier refusing to follow orders then you absolutely put it on paper and push for UCMJ.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jun 12 at 2016 12:38 PM

MCPO Roger Collins — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:38:35 -0400

Many of you know how I love anecdotes. When I came aboard my first submarine as an E-3, I asked where my bedding was. The COB (Chief of the Boat) asked me why I need them, you don't have a bunk. The same COB (SOB to most of us junior enlisteds) walked up behind me while on fire watch, listening to my brand new transistor radio using ear buds (or what ever we called them at that time), he said absolutely nothing but ripped them out of my ears and tossed my new radio, then walked away saying nothinhg. Do you suppose I had anything to say after that? Tough lesson, but learned lesson. BTW, the guy was a huge knuckle dragger Torpedoman. That is the way discipline used to work, and work well it did.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 12:54 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:54:42 -0400

Pull him aside and have a heart to heart. It's lame but it's the best course of action. Tell him everything you do is to protect him from an corrective action later. Also tell him you are getting looked at to correct him and have been told to take a more severe approach and that you are trying to avoid that.

I know it has helped with a few of my soldiers that have had attitudes in the past.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Jun 12 at 2016 12:59 PM

Capt Tom Brown — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:59:26 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member,1LT William Clardy makes a very good point which should be taken to heart by every NCO and officer: unless you are a Chuck Norris-type martial arts expert, you would be well advised to resist the temptation to take immediate physical action of some sort in a case like this. It may not be of much consolation if the offending trooper gets courts martialed and a BCD if you have to deal with an indignity such as described. Better to refer the matter to NCOs for immediate action such as removing the individual or find out the individual's unit asap and report him straight away. It would take a very reckless trooper to defy a direct order under any circumstances, esp while on base, and they did feel so bold, they may also be ready to follow through with violent actions.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 1:01 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 13:01:13 -0400

This is according to my experience (13yrs TIS 10 yrs as an NCO) and ADRP 6-22 and include the NCO guide which covers on the spot corrections done right.
1. Always live up to the Army Values.
At all times treat all with dignity and respect to include your Soldiers when they display such patterns of misconduct that are unbecoming of a Soldier.
2. Correct the Soldiers deficiency and don't attack the individual by disrespecting him.
3. I had a wise mentor call 1SG Kelvin Ingram when I was a Drill Sergeant and he told me documention beats conversation. Document all everything in counseling document. Good and bad.
4. In the 4856 you will come up with a plan to fix the discrepancy. Remember that the punishment will fit the crime. And doing exercises is not corrective in nature, it teaches nothing but to hate your leader and it shows lack of leadership, understanding and inability to fix matters and develop others for the better.
5. Handle it at your level first (you're an NCO after all) once the Soldier has done the same discrepancy then type up another 4856 and involve the Squad Leader. Don't involve the SL at first, show him/her that you have tried to handle it first at your level. At the end of the day he or she needs to know the goods and the bass of the squad they're are responsible for. The point is show the Soldier/s and your COC that you want to develop the individual and not just out punish and chapter out. This also allows you the opportunity to develop yourself as a young NCO by learning from others experiences.
6. Never forget to follow up both in person and in document. This is the last portion of the 4856 that's nearly used, the assessment.
Again, this is my own habit and tips that I always have in mind when dealing with these matters. They're in no specific order even though they're numbered. By dealing with it this way your are printing a history of the Soldier weather for the best or the worst. Let them prove themselves a worthy Soldier Ana future NCO/Commisioned Officer or Warrant Officer or let them prove the need for UCMJ. You just show that you have done the right thing, conducted yourself like a true professional being fair and impartial. Last thing, I have noticed that a lot of Soldiers within the last 8yrs prefer to do push ups or any type of physical activity since they know and fear the documentation of such behaviors knowing that it will lead to unemployment for the military or UCMJ. I have had Soldiers tell me this and I've heard them talking about it. I've been in Schofield Barracks, Carson, Sill and Drum and heard this statement many times in my career from infantry to Supply clerks and personal clerks etc. This is my way of handling it and I offer it to you to base your own. Take what you want from me and others advice and make your own. Hope this helps.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 2:32 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:32:07 -0400

Personelly, i will start some heavy paper work. I will make sure that i do not my career and everything that i work hard for to be taking away by private sniffy. I will not touch his/her stuff but i make sure that paperwork is properlly followed.

Response by SSgt Charles Freeman made Jun 12 at 2016 4:13 PM

SSgt Charles Freeman — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 16:13:01 -0400

He would have pushed till his heart busted, with the sunglasses on. And depending on which SgtMaj I had at the time I might have sent him up there just to say hey, in the sunglasses. But I've been retired 15 years they may not do that kind of thing any more.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jun 12 at 2016 5:32 PM

Maj John Bell — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 17:32:37 -0400

There are errors of enthusiasm, errors of inattention, and errors of malice. Refusal to follow a lawful order is an error of malice. Will this soldier advance on an enemy position if ordered to do so? If I was in command, I'd take it to a very public special court-martial with representation from every subordinate unit with a TO&E NCO as the leader. There would be no negotiation or changing of minds. It is better to beat a dog one time, hard, than a 1000 times lightly.

Response by SSG Aaron Marshall made Jun 12 at 2016 5:39 PM

SSG Aaron Marshall — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 17:39:16 -0400

My first thought would be to take his ass to the wood line and make him pay by pain and repetition! Since that can't happen in today's Army, I would let the whole squad know tomorrow's pt session will be long! I had this problem as a SPC I was put in charge of 4 pvts that did not like to listen and lack basic soldier discipline.. I cleared it through my PSG and the next day was painful for them. After PT I made it clear as I had one guy in tears that if you ever disobey again this type of PT will happen more often. RLTW!

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jun 12 at 2016 6:18 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:18:23 -0400

Make sure you are keeping paperwork on this behavior and counseling the individual.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jun 12 at 2016 6:19 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:19:48 -0400

You are authorized to remove the sunglasses from the individual's face.

Response by SSG James Elmore made Jun 12 at 2016 8:19 PM

SSG James Elmore — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:19:32 -0400

You always say if this continues UCMJ will be recommended then You always put the "Magic bullet" or "Magic blurb" at the bottom so that if the situation continues you have the option to use UCM appropriately

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 9:06 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 21:06:13 -0400

I would absolutely crush a Soldier who was disrespectful or insubordinate to one of my NCO's.

Blatant insubordination like this in my formation (that NCO is acting as my representative in this case) would be recommended for field grade action and maxed out at that. Aside from the rank and pay, I have to give 4 hours of sleep per 24 hour period. Nowhere does it say it has to be consecutive. They'd get 20 minutes at a time.

That should be enough to make my point.

This type of behavior is a cancer and it will spread of you don't crush it. Of course, having been an NCO prior, I take a very serious view on this.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 9:22 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 21:22:35 -0400

On the first 4856, you state that if the behavior continues, you could push for UCMJ action. The second or 3rd, you push for UCMJ

Response by SSG Rickey Nelson made Jun 12 at 2016 9:43 PM

SSG Rickey Nelson — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 21:43:53 -0400

Article 15 .

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 10:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 22:34:30 -0400

Pen to paper, paper to chain, repeat as necessary. Avoid at all costs the temptation to rip his head off and shit down his neck..please!!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 11:48 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 23:48:28 -0400

You make their life hell.... No seriously, you figure out where the communication breakdown is occurring, then take it from there.

Response by SrA Paul Pfeil made Jun 13 at 2016 11:41 AM

SrA Paul Pfeil — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:41:12 -0400

Raybans are not part of the uniform, he his in violation. If he refuses to follow orders, he the is in violation of uniform regulations, and in direct violation of the ucmj, for lot following a lawful order of those above him. This is something you mush quash fast and hard, especially in a war zone. The reason we follow orders is so when the orders you give are a matter of life and death we follow without question. I would stomp his glasses, then stomp him . If he still wouldn't follow orders he would be stomped by the chief or first shirt. As a leader you must ensure no matter what orders are followed. If you can not lead perhaps you are the problem. Motivate and lead by example.

Response by 1SG Jorge Guzman made Jun 13 at 2016 11:55 AM

1SG Jorge Guzman — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:55:27 -0400

Chapter 14-12c. Too easy! That my favorite go-to for disrespect.

Response by SSG Joseph Henderson made Jun 13 at 2016 12:11 PM

SSG Joseph Henderson — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:11:01 -0400

Have you tried to figure out why he isn't listening to your orders. Not that it is a reason to disobey a lawful order but to know what is the root cause of the issue. As a leader you need to be able to understand why people do what they do.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 12:27 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:27:42 -0400

I would definitely put it on paper, but it all depends on the trends that you have set before you got promoted. One thing most NCO's fail to learn early on in their career is you permit what you promote. For instance, have Soldiers ever seen you out of uniform at any time. You need to make sure that you are correct before correcting others. However, with all of that aside I would verbally counsel the Soldier if this was a first incident, but I would do so in a way that everybody knows that it will not be tolerated. So I would have verbally addressed it right there and then in the formation so everyone would take notice. If the Soldier further refused to listen, then you have said Soldier follow you to the office and you put it on paper. Failure to obey a lawful order is plain and simple, so is 670-1. The only way this Soldier would be safe to wear approved sunglasses in formation is if he/she had a profile because they just had eye surgery, but I am sure this would not be the case.

Response by SFC John Hill made Jun 13 at 2016 12:34 PM

SFC John Hill — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:34:42 -0400

In your example the soldier may be disobeying the Commander. Commanders may prescribe the wear, or not, of sunglasses (medical exceptions allowed) when in formation for uniformity of appearance. Sunglasses must be in compliance with guidance set forth in AR 670-1.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Jun 13 at 2016 1:03 PM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:03:53 -0400

If you are the most senior soldier and he wasn't listening, then I would write him up for insubordination. But if you were of the same rank, then I recommend getting a SNCO involved and respectfully explain the situation. The SNCO should either back you or correct him by himself. I've run into similar situations where because of my junior rank status people didn't want to follow my orders or instructions. So I put my SNCO on the phone and he told them something along the lines of "Goolsby is right so fix yourself. If Goolsby is telling you to do something, it's because I authorized him to correct you. So if Goolsby is telling you to do something, then you better act as if I told you to do something".

I typically try to avoid paperwork whenever I can, but if he's being blatantly disrespectful and a SNCO can't get it resolved then I have no qualms about burning someone.

Response by SGT Jeffrey Dennis made Jun 13 at 2016 1:26 PM

SGT Jeffrey Dennis — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:26:05 -0400

This is simple, if a soldier receives and understands a legal order from an NCO and disobeys it.
1. Lose your freaking mind in front of God and everybody.
2. Make him eat his sunglasses
3. Drown him in the latrine, and then revive him
4. Court-Marshal him

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 1:52 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:52:40 -0400

You should use your command policy, and have your PSG enforce it, then your 1SG. After several counseling for corrective action, then push for UCMJ....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 2:08 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 14:08:32 -0400

AR 670-1 is now PUNITIVE. Meaning, you don't have to counsel a Soldier for a violation any more, you can skip right to an A15. However, you should issue three 4856. #1 violation of AR 670-1 (pam 670-1), #2 Failure to follow a lawful order, and #3 disrespect to a NCO. Make sure at least one has the negative blurb, and push for an A15 if the situation warrants.

The only way around this is: were the Sunglasses transition Rx type? Were the sunglasses Rx type? Does the SM have a profile allowing the wear of sunglasses.

No matter the reason, the SM should have told you what his legal justification would have been.

Response by SPC Roger Giffen made Jun 13 at 2016 2:24 PM

SPC Roger Giffen — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 14:24:35 -0400

Minimum...extra duty. You do not destroy his private property. Article 15 is the behavior continues.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 2:37 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 14:37:04 -0400

First time; ask
Second time; tell him.
Third time; let your supervisor know or leading NCO and provide the instruction.
Supervisor will make it clear to the soldier to take off the sunglasses, or be written up for refusing 2 NCOs by not following or complying to orders.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 2:37 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 14:37:24 -0400

REALLY? You are going to fill out paperwork and let this ahole wear his glasses?
I'm with SFC at bottom. Crush them then pt his/her butt till they puke. Then do more till your tired.

Old School

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 3:09 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:09:42 -0400

Pull him out of formation and correct him with an ass chewing and if that doesnt work charge his ass for disobeying a lawful order

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 3:58 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:58:48 -0400

I see three issues. First, a lack of respect for you as a non-commissioned officer, which you must fix quickly. If the Soldier is unwilling to obey your lawful orders, but will obey others, then you need to do what is necessary to fix his lack of respect for your authority. If he has no issues obeying the orders of others, than this is more than likely a personal thing with you than authority in general. This is a tough question you need to ask yourself, why would he have little respect for your authority as a non-commissioned officer? Is there something there you need to fix as a leader or is this just a punk-ass kid who needs to be taught a lesson? Serious introspective question, which you should not provide answer in this public forum. Always ask this question first, and you will become a better leader over time. None of that last internal question negates what he did, which must be rectified.
Second, as a company commander, I told my NCO's and Officers I would back any recommendation for an article 15 provided the case met the following criteria. A) I could clearly read the entire story in the counseling packet of why this Soldier deserves the elevated punishment. The Soldier's chain of command should NOT have to verbally justify their reasoning. I should be able to pick up the counseling packet and read everything. There must be frequent and consistent misbehavior where the NCOs have made the developmental steps to correct the problem. This is the standard the JAG has for the commander when they hand the JAG the counseling packet. Great NCO's understand this, and become far more effective at discipline. They recognize the JAG may advise a commander against an article 15 based on a lack of justification. This reflects badly on the commander to his superiors, but it also makes the NCOs who recommended the article 15 look toothless. B) The act was so egregious the act alone is worthy of an article 15, AND there is a counseling stating the facts and recommends an article 15.
Third, why did none of the other NCOs pounce on this Soldier for disobeying you in such a public manner as a formation? His disrespects reflects negatively on them as well. One of the finest units I was ever apart of had a junior NCO corps that took their role seriously, and backed each other up rapidly. If a Soldier was witnessed being disrespectful to an NCO, every NCO within a mile was there to tear into this Soldier and bring them on line. This was done from corporal through SGT. The life of a Staff Sergeant was much easier based on the fact the E5s ran their sections with an iron fist. Phenomenal unit and very few company or field grade article 15's. Everything was handled at the lowest level and Soldiers were afraid to disrespect anyone.

Response by SFC Daniel McIntire made Jun 13 at 2016 4:01 PM

SFC Daniel McIntire — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:01:18 -0400

SGT,
It is a uniform violation! Is this a first offense or continuous behavior? You can recommend Article 13. Have you become creative and assign particular taskings or "volunteer" this soldier for details? Something to consider.

Response by PFC Justin Gkuspie made Jun 13 at 2016 4:11 PM

PFC Justin Gkuspie — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:11:58 -0400

If anyone did that in my Battery (Alpha BTRY 2/174 HOOH!) not only would they get an article 15, but they'd probably have some..''alone time'' with that NCO. I can't imagine anyone doing that though (MAYBE jokingly) everyone seemed to respect the NCO's.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Jun 13 at 2016 4:33 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:33:25 -0400

Unfortunately, you can't beat his or her ass half to death and get away with it anymore. Do your documentation, build a paper trail and shitcan them at the earliest opportunity. That's your job, saving the taxpayers money, not saving some piece of garbage.

Response by Sgt Jamie Grippin made Jun 13 at 2016 4:49 PM

Sgt Jamie Grippin — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:49:32 -0400

Paperwork is the correct PC answer but it will not allow to you to lead. I have worked with clerk type leaders and they are subpar. You can't file paperwork in the field when it is most important that your people follow orders. When troops don't follow orders you no longer have an Army you have a mob. You will need to address this at a more basis level if you truly want to change things. Everyone in your command will be watching on some level as to how you handle any incident. Lead by example and from the front. A good leader doesn't just set the bar they are the bar others need to achieve. If you put your people first and take care of them they will in turn take are of you. And as an addendum some fights just don't need to be fought.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 5:16 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 17:16:59 -0400

Well my NCOs continue to wear loads unauthorized stuff in/out of formation I see no1 correcting them

Response by SFC Terry Murphy made Jun 13 at 2016 6:00 PM

SFC Terry Murphy — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:00:13 -0400

Problem number 1- You have a Private that won't/doesn't respect you or your authority. Back when I was a young Sergeant, there was no question about it, a little wall to wall counseling and everything was fine. Hint- always have another NCO with you so you can always confirm that the private attacked you and you were defending yourself.
Oh well, a new Army, write the soldier up and get your chain of command involved. Art 15 his young ass or PT the living shit out of him if that is all that is required.
Problem number 2- You are a Sergeant in the United States Army and you have to ask a question like this on social media.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 7:19 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 19:19:57 -0400

Give a direct order. Still not obeyed process the charges for failure to obey a direct order. Let the guys at the brig take care of the glasses.

Response by PO1 Howard Doll made Jun 13 at 2016 7:29 PM

PO1 Howard Doll — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 19:29:39 -0400

As a Petty Officer, I had the "three strikes your out" policy. I would call the insubordinate in my office, and give him/her counseling (strike one). Strike two, in my office to sign a Page 13 (admin remarks). Strike three - a report chit up the chain of command (approval for NJP).

I don't think it would work in the "kinder/gentler" Navy of today.

Response by SPC Peter Friedrich made Jun 13 at 2016 7:57 PM

SPC Peter Friedrich — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 19:57:34 -0400

Slip a member of the E4 mafia $20 for a wall to wall session and have him help his battle buddy? Lol

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 8:03 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 20:03:31 -0400

I had a junior Marine tell a room full of NCO's "no" once...once. she got lifed by all four of us to the point of tears, and never told an NCO "no" ever again.

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Jun 13 at 2016 8:03 PM

LCpl Steve Smith — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 20:03:35 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member, If I was in your boots I would consult with your Staff NCO and get recommendations from him/her on how you should proceed with this Shit Bird or flat out tell your Staff NCO you recommend the Shit Bird get a Page 11( which will always include 1st charge Disobeying a Direct order from and NCO, and since he/she is out of Regs 2nd Charge the Violation of The Uniform regulation he/she has violated and I'm sure there are more that could or would be added if your Staff NCO's and O.I.C. agree with you. There is never just one Violation on a Disciplinary Action in the Military. Back in 91-95 when I was in. Crushing sunglasses would of been the only thing needed. (I.E. Back then Nipple Rings were the thing for kids to get. in my section we had 3 Marines get them and Our Section Staff NCO heard about it, so he and the O.I.C. got us in formation and proceeded to state to all of us Nipple Rings were not allowed. They then walked down the lines of our formation patting us on our chests at the nipple area and since the Marines had just gotten the rings done the area was tender. When one flinched the O.I.C. felt for the ring, grabbed it through the Blouse and pulled it off). In this era of the Military and during this "down sizing Period" I wouldn't recommend it. The "Shit Bird" would probably cry to your O.I.C and Mommy. The next thing you know The B.G.W. comes sneaking up behind you.

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Jun 13 at 2016 8:09 PM

MSgt Wayne Morris — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 20:09:23 -0400

I had only 1 case of that in my career when I had an E4 report for 2nd shift (on a Sunday) late by more than 30 minutes, in a uniform that looked like it had been slept in and wearing yes, tennis shoes. I instructed him to go back to his billet and get into a neat and clean uniform and correct foot wear and report back to duty within the hour. He refused, and then I called over the assistant flight chief and repeated my directions and he again refused. I then picked up the phone and called the senior command post officer on duty explained the situation to the senior officer and within minutes there was an E9 at the door along with a security policeman. I then requested the individual be escorted to the medical facility for a urine test as instructed in the OI's and also directed those who witnessed the exchange to make a written statement to what they had observed during the exchange. The next duty day after conversing with the Mission Sup and OIC, I stated I would press charges and did so. Why, in short this was a detached outfit and too many of the younger troops thought they were not really in the AF in addition to partying with the OIC on occasions. Discipline was lax to the point of NCO's being handcuffed and I stated as such and told them that by giving this person a pass would just handcuff the other flight chiefs even more. As it turned out the troop was already on the control roster for insubordination to a commissioned officer and was only allowed to PCS to this location because it had been a remote assignment. Needless to say I was shit as far as the OIC was concerned but a hero to the other Flight Chiefs.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Jun 13 at 2016 8:31 PM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 20:31:34 -0400

Take them off his/her face, snap them in half and then give them back.

Response by PO3 Richard Alexander made Jun 13 at 2016 8:36 PM

PO3 Richard Alexander — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 20:36:40 -0400

When I was in the Navy, thirty years ago, something like this would have sent the offender to non-judicial punishment (what we called, "Captain's Mast"). There, the Captain of the ship would determine the circumstances and appropriate response. Punishment could range from a few hours of extra duty to confinement to the brig on bread and water for a few days and reduction in rank, maybe some financial penalty.

I'm guessing that the Army doesn't do things that way?

Response by CPL Mike Parker. made Jun 13 at 2016 10:50 PM

CPL Mike Parker. — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 22:50:47 -0400

Remember in full metal jacket when DI Hartman found Private Leonard Lawrence/ Gomer Pyle's doughnut in his footlocker. Gunny punished the platoon and the platoon punished him

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 11:38 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 23:38:55 -0400

This is the kind of thing that causes me to devour their soul.
While every situation is unique and I prefer a custom approach to each event to keep them guessing, rest assured that those sunglasses would no longer be mounted on that Soldier's head more than 30 seconds after the first words of correction were uttered.

Response by Sgt Tom Beard made Jun 13 at 2016 11:46 PM

Sgt Tom Beard — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 23:46:12 -0400

PT the whole formation until they're blowing chow from 3 days prior. Then dismiss, he'll accidently fall and break an arm later...

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Jun 14 at 2016 1:15 AM

SSgt Jim Gilmore — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 01:15:51 -0400

Take them off or show valid medical reason to be allowed to wear them. PERIOD. Refuse, run it up the flagpole.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 4:49 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 04:49:20 -0400

first off i would not take them off and step on them; that gives not only the SM but the U.S. Citizens a bad taste in their mouth about the Army and it's leaders. If he or she refuses to take them off, let them go and talk to them after formation via counseling them, letting them know what the AR says and inform them of what will happen if this occurs again. Do you give someone an Article 15 for their hair not to standard? NO - you make an on the spot correction and drive on - you don't give them an article 15 and most of the time, they don't get counseled for it either unless it continues to be a habit. It's solely at the discretion of the CDR but mose CDRs would expect at least one counseling to had been done as a warning before they push for UCMJ action.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Jun 14 at 2016 7:11 AM

Capt Tom Brown — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 07:11:19 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member Hope you got enough good responses to give you some insight and guidance into how to handle such an incident at your end. Each person being different of course. Other threads along this line include spot correcting a uniform violation noted in a public place, such as off base, esp by a more senior person. A lot of good responses to that one. Hope you are not faced with such a situation too many times in yr career.

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made Jun 14 at 2016 10:02 AM

PO1 Jack Howell — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 10:02:29 -0400

Here's the route I would take:
1. Start with verbal counseling.
2. If that doesn't work, then give him/her written counseling and be sure to include the UCMJ article that he/she is violating.
3. If that still doesn't change things, then put him/her on report and pursue Article 15 punishment. Be sure to have all documentation ready.
The bottom line is that you CANNOT be afraid to hold your people accountable for their actions. Most importantly, keep your chain of command informed about what you're doing and why.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 10:03 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 10:03:51 -0400

SMOKE SESSION
IN MY DAY YOU WENT INTO A CONNEX AND FIXED THE SOLDIER

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Jun 14 at 2016 10:33 AM

SSG Brian Kresge — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 10:33:28 -0400

I think you've gotten the right answers.

Those sun glasses are going to get very expensive if you do the right things with the right amount of paperwork. Was that something the soldier really wanted to lose rank or pay over, while incurring extra duty?

What pains me is that "back in my day," when I first came in the service, it wasn't a matter of fearing my NCOs, it was that I respected them and cared that I was a reflection of their leadership. If this scenario is real, it's depressing that we've come to this. But there's always going to be that one soldier that presents some kind of leadership challenge...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 10:57 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 10:57:52 -0400

Remove said soldier from formation. Inform soldier that they may re-enter formation when they are in the proper uniform. Until then, they will be considered AWOL.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 11:17 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:17:20 -0400

Love the anserws I've seen unless there is a medical reason point blank glasses coming off in formation. I will not allow a Soldier to disrespect the commands formation with such BS and every NCO in that formation should be on the same page with that.

Response by SGT Thomas Simmons made Jun 14 at 2016 11:19 AM

SGT Thomas Simmons — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:19:56 -0400

You told the soldier remove the sun glasses, and the soldier refused is disrespect to a NCO. Article 91 or 92 disrespect to a NCO or Warrant officer. Put it on paper and recommend UCMJ.

Response by SGT James Hulon made Jun 14 at 2016 11:21 AM

SGT James Hulon — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:21:13 -0400

Coming from and old Infantry background, remedial training needs to take place. If you have a good team leader or squad leader that knows how to take care of his joes than you would have less UCMJ and a stronger more collective squad. Punishment can be done on the lower level and will make the soldier more effective and respect the leader that much more. I've seen a good leader turn some of the worst soldiers into top notch paratroopers without UCMJ. They used a good old fashion smoking and got the point across.

Response by SSG Charles Davis made Jun 14 at 2016 11:23 AM

SSG Charles Davis — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:23:58 -0400

Too easy! Failure to obey a lawful order by a non-commissioned officer. The sunglasses are not authorized under 670-1. Put it on paper along with some extra duty!

Response by SGT Josh Johnson made Jun 14 at 2016 11:24 AM

SGT Josh Johnson — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:24:01 -0400

If he's your soldier, then immediate corrective action should remind the soldier as well as make an example for the others. Quote AR 670-1 as well as his responsibility to follow his oath to obey the NCO s and officers appointed over him, while he is doing inclined pushups. If he still refuses, take it to your 1Sgt for more punitive measures. If he is otherwise not normally your soldier (I.e. tasked to guard duty), then refer it to both your task commander with the recommendation that his commander follow-up with the soldier after he is removed from your roster. UCMJ allows for the judicial punishment of soldiers who dont or wont follow lawful orders.

Response by CMSgt Mickey Wright made Jun 14 at 2016 11:30 AM

CMSgt Mickey Wright — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:30:11 -0400

I can't believe this question was even asked! Welcome to the Pussification of the Army!

Response by MAJ Jeffrey Frankart made Jun 14 at 2016 11:31 AM

MAJ Jeffrey Frankart — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:31:32 -0400

One problem I saw when I was on active duty and probably even more in Reserve component was the E5 was typically an E4 yesterday. He was one of the guys yesterday and today he's got a little more rank. It's a setup for failure. Newly minted E5s should move, at least to a new company, ideally a new battalion or duty station. It's too easy for the junior enlisted and the newly minted NCO to fall back into old habits. That E5 is still going to want to hang out with his buddies on Saturday night. Wrong answer - he needs to be checking on his troops or buildng relationships with his new NCO buds.

Response by CPT John Gilmore made Jun 14 at 2016 11:38 AM

CPT John Gilmore — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:38:08 -0400

Group PT usually fixes the issue.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 11:44 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:44:27 -0400

Do not let the Soldier win but do not let the Soldier see you frustrated. Get another NCO to go with you and tell the Soldier again. Both of you record the incident on a 4856 and recommend UCMJ. Just put date time and circumstance on the counseling and don't waste your time looking through the Manual of courts martial, Top has that on lock. But, make sure you are not singling out just that one Soldier. Make sure that you are the same way with everybody.
Refusing orders is dangerous and creates bigger problems when others watch it. Make sure you deal with this Soldier away from everybody AND WITH YOUR TRUSTED NCO BUDDY! Don't be lazy and let an hour go by without doing that counseling. BUT, after the counseling, move forward and treat the Soldier like the day is new and that event is the past, it will screw with his mind and cause his own inner shame without you saying or doing anything other than the counseling.

Response by MGySgt Erik Burks made Jun 14 at 2016 12:04 PM

MGySgt Erik Burks — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:04:22 -0400

If you cannot find a specific section don’t worry, just remember what your promotion warrant stated, “ And I do strictly charge all persons of lesser grade to render obedience.” That right there gives you the authority to make corrections and render lawful orders. If you wish to smash them, well if you are an E-9 like I was you can get away with it, an E-5 or E-6 you may get chewed out.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 12:25 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:25:11 -0400

1. Situation permitting, find out if there was a good reason (e.g. prescription eye wear)
2a. Depending on the Soldier, document with corrective training to
2b. Texting my 27D buddy know that he or she might want to start drafting the DA 2627.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 12:25 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:25:58 -0400

Some soldiers will try to challenge you to see what they can get away with. So after I remove the sunglasses myself I will proceed to smoke his balls. If that doesn't work then make the entire squad or platoon do it as well. Once he sees that you're not playing around he'll come around or continue to make his life miserable until discipline sets in.

Response by SGT Michael Mainguy made Jun 14 at 2016 12:26 PM

SGT Michael Mainguy — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:26:55 -0400

Easy...Tell everyone in formation (assuming it's your formation) that you need to go consult JAG (works best in the rain/heat)...put next in command in charge of the formation...then let the formation simmer...I'm quite sure the problem will eventually work itself out... More entertaining if you bring in the 1sg, SGM, Higher levels of command to "consult" on the situation and ask advice about what should be done. Then of course (since this soldier is obviously having problems with sunlight). Conduct some nighttime land navigation so that this "special snowflake" can be accommodated... If you have the time and good rapport with your chain of command this can be a really fun learning experience for everyone. Very professional...everybody can learn a great deal...and even your special snowflake gets some training and experience with his "specialness"...and of course and article 15 could be handed out for disobeying a lawful order...I'd generally not go to article 15 there unless it was a routine thing. Assuming this is in garrison and there was no time pressure that couldn't be worked around. Another nice option might be to suggest to the entire formation that they need to all go get sunglasses so the unit is "uniform"...and you can meet at 23:00 to validate that everyone is up to the new uniform standard (add to the reg, don't take away). Other options include full battle rattle, maybe and equipment inspection of full gear (make sure everyone has those sunglasses and 6 pair of socks) Go Army! Always loved the creative aspect of being and NCO myself...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 12:51 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:51:23 -0400

600-20 is Command Policy... use 670-1

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Jun 14 at 2016 12:55 PM

SGT Frank Pritchett — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:55:14 -0400

Todays Army is much gentler Army and the average Private knows how far he push an NCO. Recording all incidents on the 4156 is only valid with a follow up which means the NCO has to close it out. Enough 4156 shows a history which also means your chain of Command has to support you then you can recommend UCMJ actions, but you have to show a history. Its not like in the 70's when there was wall to wall counseling or in the 80's when an NCO could recommend punishment. NCO's need to take back control and stop running to officers with their complaints NCO's need to support NCO's; such as a good NCODP program where these issues can be aired at the unit level.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 1:16 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 13:16:08 -0400

Having been team leader plenty, I have actually had to deal with a soldier like this. Because I am an E4 he thought he didn't have to listen to me when I told him to do something, which was told to me by the squad leader.

He was a brand new private. The first time he talked back I pulled him aside and talked with him. He straightened up for the remainder of the training day, till the end of the day. We were tasked with cleaning the armory and such. I put out what our team needed to do and went about showing them and helping out. I was called away for something, on my return I see the new private hanging out with his buddies. I ask him what he's doing and tell him to get back to work, he says, "there is nothing to do. They got it" his friends standing in agreement (all E1-E2s) so I pulled him out back for a talk and we did some PT till I was tired, which was far after he was. To check myself I had an actual E5 come out with me so no one got butt hurt about an E4 team leader smoking someone.

So in other words, instill discipline and don't let them think they can do things like that. Never had a problem with him again.

Response by SSgt Tony Basile made Jun 14 at 2016 1:27 PM

SSgt Tony Basile — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 13:27:24 -0400

3 days of KP and/or Policing the area usually will 'sell' the guy on obeying orders along with confinement to barracks. There has to be consequences for disobedience in such a casual circumstance. In war, things may change due to the immediate circumstances but outright defiance in formation is a challenge to the leadership and only the drill Sgt can win because he Has to.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 2:14 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 14:14:24 -0400

The response should always be tailored toward the individual soldier. There is no cookie cutter comeback. More than anything keep your cool and remember this isn't personal. The soldier is challenging authority, and not necessarily yours, either. In the case of the sunglasses wearing soldier - too easy - have him fall out of formation, put him in the front leaning rest while you conduct your business. Take your time conducting said business if the situation allows. Then document his refusal to obey your lawful order. Conduct your counseling session as soon as possible & try to determine the "why" behind his insubordination. "Re-motivate and re-engage" said soldier. If the junior enlisted were perfect good NCOs wouldn't be needed.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Jun 14 at 2016 2:14 PM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 14:14:54 -0400

Start the paperwork trail.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 2:15 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 14:15:13 -0400

First of all there are so many ways to handle this situation....... It is up to us as leaders to be the transactional or transformational leader. It is up to us to keep the Soldiers motivated and want to be there!!!!!! If the Soldier wants to there then there should never be an issue...But here is the real question...... Why didn't the Soldier respect his leader to follow and order and or regulation In the first place? For someone to be that disgruntle at a supervisor really says there is some stuff going on farther than the information provided. Did the troop just get a medical procedure done? dilated or Lasix surgery or even scratched Retina ? (Hurts like a mofo!) What's going on in that soldiers life where he feels he don't need to follow rules, orders and complete disregard to any possible corrective training or punitive action..... Before assuming that you would crush this soldier find out the facts!!!!!!!

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Jun 14 at 2016 2:43 PM

SGT Tony Clifford — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 14:43:04 -0400

I'm sorry that a SGT even needs to ask this question. As team leader your Joes should know who's boss. Here's the breakdown, if a soldier refuses a lawful order you have two (used to be three options) in order to maintain control of your soldiers. First and the most preferred by higher ups is to write a 4586 recommending an article 15 and begin working on his packet. Then next is to do remedial training. The option that is no longer available is to call him out to the wood line.

In your situation I would think about how I lost control of one of my soldiers. Was I an ineffective leader? Was I underperforming in my tactical and technical skills? Have I not shown my soldiers that I place their needs above my own. SGT, I suggest that you do some soul searching and decide if you're a SGT or a NCO. Trust me there is a difference.

Response by SSG(P) Ell Pizarek made Jun 14 at 2016 3:08 PM

SSG(P) Ell Pizarek — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 15:08:47 -0400

First of all, destroying a soldiers sun glasses is not going to build any any form of respect or change the behavior of the soldier in question. If he would not remove the glasses, then I would have him step out of ranks and stand behind the formation. Once the platoon is released back to the squad /team leaders, I would deal with the insubordination aspects of the problem. I would employ corrective actions such as inspections, PT, and crappy details that would help him understand that insubordination would not be tolerated. If this doesn't resolve the problem, then you request UCMJ. Without showing that you attempted to resolve the problem thru corrective measures, no commander will read an Article 15. This is how things are handled in the new Army. In the old Army, the members of the squad or platoon, would have simply paid him a visit that night and problem would have been solved.

Response by SPC Marcus DeMatos made Jun 14 at 2016 3:38 PM

SPC Marcus DeMatos — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 15:38:08 -0400

Since it is in a public forum and there is no doubt of witnesses, I would proceed by stating "Pvt X, I have given you a lawful directive. As you are refusing to comply, I am confiscating the contraband, and I am directing you to report to me in the Company CQ office following formation". At that time I would counsel them, and should they continue to be insubordinate I would utilize my chain of command, up to and including the 1SG.

Response by LCpl Carl Hemperley made Jun 14 at 2016 4:12 PM

LCpl Carl Hemperley — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 16:12:08 -0400

being a Marine, we are taught from day one to obey ALL legal orders. so this should never be an issue. if there is a medical reason for the sunglasses, this should have been brought to your attention before formation, or at the very least, as soon as the order was given. Willful disobediance of a lawful order is always subject to the discretion of the offended party. If you feel the man deserves a chance to explain or a second chance to remove said glasses, so be it. If he is a regular "bird" that tends to try to fly his own way on things, I would say that he needs a lesson taught best by the UCMJ.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 4:55 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 16:55:21 -0400

You do not put articles in the counseling
That is up to legal

Response by SGT Jason Quarles made Jun 14 at 2016 5:09 PM

SGT Jason Quarles — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:09:38 -0400

I'm a traditionalist, I would use non-judicial punishment, what is called re-training, to instill in this POS what the chain of command means and the importance of following an order from his first line supervisor. I had a soldier who "forgot" to bring his water to a rifle range, after PCC's and PCI's had been conducted, informed the range safety NCO that he had no water which meant I got an ass chewing. We had an intense pt session after the range where he got really exhausted and I did not, and I had him carry a 5 gallon jug of water for a month which he could not use. He never forgot water again. Sometimes you have to assert your authority and remind your subordinates that you aren't mommy and daddy nor is this McDonalds were no doesn't elicit a response.

Response by SPC Chad Baetke made Jun 14 at 2016 5:25 PM

SPC Chad Baetke — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:25:30 -0400

have the soldier remove them and proceed to smoke him until he cries

Response by SFC Joseph A. Anderson made Jun 14 at 2016 5:25 PM

SFC Joseph A. Anderson — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:25:35 -0400

In my day, he would have removed those sunglasses or be subject to disobeying an order. My troops would never disrespect me like that.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 5:34 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:34:48 -0400

In the old days NCO would take the sunglasses off of the soldier then proceed to teach a very hard
leason to such a person.

Response by SSG Lon Watson made Jun 14 at 2016 5:40 PM

SSG Lon Watson — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:40:55 -0400

It's disobeying a lawful order! Book him!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 5:45 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:45:33 -0400

The army in the present we have to be careful on how we do things or a matter of fact be politically correct on how we do stuff. Think and ask for guidance from someone who has been in the service for an extended period. There is and old saying keep a still tongue and a wise head.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 5:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:49:16 -0400

You tell said troop he has a choice to make he can remove said glasses and do some pushups to remind him who is in charge or you can counsel him and recommend a article 15 to the CO or the rest of the PLT/Squad will do pushups until he removes them which will also result in a Counseling-Article 15 but then the rest of his "Hommies" wont be very happy with him. now when you make these recommendations to him pull him off to the side and do it in a low voice no matter how PISSED you are. Reality is he probably gave you a gut reaction without thinking first he may of been having a bad day or week ect ect when he said no now he's backed into a corner and doesn't want to lose face by backing down publicly but you give him a opportunity to do it discreetly then you both win. I had this very thing happen on a deployment one time that's how I handled it and it worked out well never had a problem with him after I also talked to him off line to see what the real issue was later. assumedly you know your guys if this is a ongoing issue then you will have to handle it differently

Response by LTC Barney Larson made Jun 14 at 2016 7:34 PM

LTC Barney Larson — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 19:34:39 -0400

Take em out- lawful order. UCMJ

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 7:54 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 19:54:45 -0400

Per 670-1 sunglasses have to be black with no reflective lens, Co has the final call. As of 2014?, 670-1 was punitive. What's the problem?

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Jun 14 at 2016 7:56 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 19:56:40 -0400

If you told him/her to take them off and they refuse, have them meet you and your SQD LDR/Section SGT at a particular place and time. At that time, you counsel his ass in front of the SQD LDR/Section SGT, and give his happy ass the Magic Bullet and he initials that b*tch. Make sure that your corrective training is in line with the offense, and follow through with it. Once you write the 4856. it now falls on YOU as the leader to make sure everything is done to the "T". Should the Soldier refuse to sign, you write in the signature block refused to sign, and counsel his/her ass again on what they're signing their name to in regards to counseling statements. IF this happens again, you counsel his/her ass again and NOW add the part where you ARE recommending this Soldier for NJP (make sure to say RECOMMENDING being NCO's can't give NJP). Before you do, talk with the SQD LDR, PSG, or Section SGT and make sure they're on board with this. Explain your case, and make sure you have been doing your monthly's on him/her. If you don't have your end right, while that Soldier will be taken care of, YOU WILL TOO. Nothing worse than you doing your end, and 1SG hears about it before the PSG does. Maybe you could solicit ideas from them on a better approach than NJP. But if you told him/her twice, write it up, send it up and allow the NCO Support to do their thing along with the Chain of Command. I remember in my early years, two 4856's of the SAME OFFENSE guaranteed you a trip to visit the PSG, who will read you the riot act, counsel you and recommend you for NJP. All the times I saw this happen, EVERY single time the Soldier was given the Art 15.

No matter WHAT you may feel, what you may want to do, or how angry this Soldier makes you, DO NOT sink to their level, DO NOT touch the Soldier in ANY way, and maintain your professionalism. If this Soldier knew you before you were promoted, they're trying you thinking we were friends before, and not recognizing the new you with the additional responsibilities of a NCO.

Response by 1SG Robert B. made Jun 14 at 2016 8:18 PM

1SG Robert B. — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:18:55 -0400

If you have established your authority as an nco through competence and commitment to your Soldiers, this will rarely, if ever hapen. It also doesnt hurt for them to know you could choke them out faster than they can say "Please stop sergeant! "

Response by SFC Brian Edwards made Jun 14 at 2016 8:25 PM

SFC Brian Edwards — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:25:02 -0400

The private was out of uniform and disrespect to a NCO, I would push for a article 15 with the CO

Response by SPC Kyle Williams made Jun 14 at 2016 8:53 PM

SPC Kyle Williams — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:53:24 -0400

I refused to follow a order given to me by 5 different nco's. They yelled and threatened and swore they would art. 15 my ass. In the end they gave up and did nothing because i was right.

Response by SFC James Pritchert made Jun 14 at 2016 8:57 PM

SFC James Pritchert — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:57:00 -0400

A Drill Sergeant friend of mine encountered this during the Vietnam war era. A trainee mouthed off to him and refused to follow orders. He beat then living hell out of the trainee on the spot. The rest of the trainees had no problem following orders.

Response by SFC Glen Coberly made Jun 14 at 2016 9:20 PM

SFC Glen Coberly — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 21:20:41 -0400

Simple. Take his shades off for him. Tell him in order to get them back, he needs to have 500 words, single spaced, with no grammatical or spelling errors, on your desk at 0600 the next day. The subject is Article 91 of the UCMJ. What does it mean to me?

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 9:34 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 21:34:51 -0400

There is a disturbing amount of responses here saying to smoke his fellow soldiers for his screw-up. Last time I checked, there is nothing legal for his squad to do to him anymore without him heading to JAG to get the whole lot of them in trouble. Mass punishment does not work nor does it have a place in today's military where everyone runs to JAG and/or EO every time something doesn't go their way.

Response by CPO Albert Kennison made Jun 14 at 2016 9:42 PM

CPO Albert Kennison — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 21:42:09 -0400

Has anyone heard of " BLANKET PARTY"?

Response by SP5 Roberta Sanchez made Jun 14 at 2016 10:14 PM

SP5 Roberta Sanchez — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 22:14:46 -0400

That is outright insubordination. I would probably take them from the soldier and deal with it that way.

Response by SGT Christopher Nicholas made Jun 14 at 2016 10:47 PM

SGT Christopher Nicholas — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 22:47:42 -0400

As a retired NCO, I agree there is no place for disobeying an order that is not illegal or immoral. As a father of an E4, I'm ashamed of what the NCO Corps has become. They no longer train and take care of their men. They spend their time checking boxes for the next promotion and disrespecting the troops.

Response by CPL Patrick Brewbaker made Jun 14 at 2016 11:07 PM

CPL Patrick Brewbaker — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 23:07:10 -0400

NJP, disregarding a lawful order.

Response by SPC Kenneth Chase made Jun 14 at 2016 11:10 PM

SPC Kenneth Chase — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 23:10:31 -0400

Hmmm your a SGT. Call said private to attention then remove sunglasses.... say comma, pause...... for effect hulk smash. The worst that will happen is a stern talking to by top, then move on and it will make a good f###!#! Story. IE no shit their I was.

Response by SPC Dennis Manning made Jun 14 at 2016 11:44 PM

SPC Dennis Manning — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 23:44:50 -0400

Ah, to miss the good 'ole days. The NCO would physically remove them, lock them away, and make said soldier do pushups until the Earth moved out of orbit. All while having other NCOs account for their actions in case everything went stupid.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 12:33 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 00:33:08 -0400

its always quick to punish soldiers. but u see fat nco's who bitch and complain about other things rather than trying to fix their weight issue. high rankings who get away with a lot more shit. i bet if there was a major in formation with the same glasses. that nco won't even open his mouth. and if he did the major can tell him to go kick rocks and that would be the end of it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 2:47 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 02:47:51 -0400

I would take him out back and skull thump him....but on a serious note, 4856 that joker and do DA 2823 Sworn Statement form for all the witnesses and consult JAG.

Response by LCpl Domingo Ariza made Jun 15 at 2016 3:45 AM

LCpl Domingo Ariza — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 03:45:10 -0400

The fact that this is a topic of discussion is crazy, i think the question should be what happen that made this whoever think it was ok to say no to a NCO in the first place.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 6:13 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 06:13:39 -0400

First if a Soldier outright refuses, be sure there isn't an underlying medical condition.. i.e. just had eyes dilated. An outright refusal of authority requires a firm hand and an intelligent NCO to handle this with tact. Time is not always on the NCOs side. Some Drill Sergeant like authoritative demands may do the trick and put this Soldier in their place. However, never let the Soldier have the upper hand. You have to maintain your position with the rest of the troops. Follow this up with the paper drill if you see this as a trend for this particular Soldier, to let them know that you are serious. UCMJ is only needed if there is outright disrespect, insubordination and for repeat offenders.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 6:44 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 06:44:30 -0400

Disobeying a lawful order from a Non-commissioned Officer is definitely grounds for UCMJ.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 7:23 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 07:23:12 -0400

You have to document all actions in a DA 4856. If the Soldier continues disobeying orders and or refuses to follow lawful orders, or refuses to follow policies and or guidance from his or her superior officer then elevate situation to chain of command recommending UCMJ action. 4856's and all written counseling statement will be part of UCMJ action procedures.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 9:28 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 09:28:03 -0400

It is sunglasses! What is the big deal ? I wear glasses that are not military issue. If that is what you are focusing on you are wasting your time and your soldiers time.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 10:00 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 10:00:04 -0400

If they are unauthorized, counsel for being in violation of ar 670-1. If they say no to a lawful order, article 86. Simple enough. Or just take to wood line, and make them work off that bad decision

Response by Cpl Kent Mitchell made Jun 15 at 2016 10:02 AM

Cpl Kent Mitchell — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 10:02:35 -0400

Get his attention.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 10:15 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 10:15:47 -0400

I mean are they sunglasses or are they ray bans or something like that with lines going though them

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 10:39 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 10:39:13 -0400

First of all I would put it on paper and then proceed to put this pvt on every shit detail that 1SG needs done. I would then let my plt off early everyday for a week except for pvt disrespectful and myself would stay late doing corrective training...

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 10:45 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 10:45:46 -0400

Slowly, ever so slowly, let the corners of your mouth go up into a shit eating grin and say, "Okay, soldier." Execute a smart facing movement and walk away and begin the documentation process to end his/her career. This is the only PC way to handle it.

Response by SSG Herbert Choi made Jun 15 at 2016 10:49 AM

SSG Herbert Choi — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 10:49:19 -0400

Write him up and smoke the whole platoon for not squaring away their battle with special attention to said soldier.

Response by SGT Vito DeGregorio made Jun 15 at 2016 10:53 AM

SGT Vito DeGregorio — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 10:53:16 -0400

I'm so sick of this new "touchie-feelie" military and social experiment that this sorry-assed administration has created! He has taken the strongest, most respected and feared military in the world and made a laughing stock of it. It has allowed it to become a babysitting service full of petulant spoiled shits!

Response by PFC Matthew Bartel made Jun 15 at 2016 11:13 AM

PFC Matthew Bartel — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:13:23 -0400

Ode snatch those glasses of his face. Smash them on the ground. Obtain my sienor NCO's support.file the proper paper work. Dog his ass indefinitely. See that he has extra duty till the end of time.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 11:24 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:24:11 -0400

Article 91 - Insubordinate conduct.
Article 92 - Failure to obey order or regulation.

These are enough to recommend this Joe for article 15. Actually of you read the UCMJ, one offence is enough to chapter a joe. The three 4856s, the three article 15s are pretty much just common courtesy so they can show a pattern of missconduct. Dont forget to add the magic bullet, date, time, location of incident (bldg # if one), what happened, what event was happening (formation, in the office working, etc.) And why yoi told him to remove the sunglasses.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 11:27 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:27:17 -0400

If I'm telling him to do something illegal or completely unrelated to the mission, by all means tell me to go fuck myself

But you're in formation? He gets two verbals one with respect and the next woth no gloves. Still not working? IDC anymore, paper time; counselings do more damage than anything else. Unless he's got a profile we don't wear em in formation. It's simple.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 11:38 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:38:37 -0400

Personally I would tell him keep them on while I took him to every bit of leadership and tell then he refused to remove them.

Response by SGT Rosi Teresi made Jun 15 at 2016 11:40 AM

SGT Rosi Teresi — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:40:28 -0400

I don't sweat the small stuff. Worry about mission and job performance

Response by SSgt Wright Joe made Jun 15 at 2016 12:12 PM

SSgt Wright Joe — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:12:28 -0400

I had an airman that had a pattern of this kind of behavior under other supervisors. I had warned him when he was assigned that I had a zero tolerance for that kind of behavior. When he did say no he spent the weekend in custody and was later awarded an art15. Never had a problem with him after that.

Response by SPC Burt Epps made Jun 15 at 2016 12:16 PM

SPC Burt Epps — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:16:13 -0400

I am so disheartened by some of the answers that I see here. The corrective actions should be smoking that Joe's ass until the walls sweat. Counseling statement? Article 15? No, No, NOOO. Joe would probably throw those sunglasses in the trash when the smoke show was over with.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 12:16 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:16:55 -0400

The Flutter Kick! In Cadence! EXERCISE! 1,2,3!

Response by SFC Brian Randall made Jun 15 at 2016 12:20 PM

SFC Brian Randall — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:20:19 -0400

NO SERGEANT WAS NOT IN OUR VOCABULARY WHEN I WAS IN. HE WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE AN EXAMPLE OF WITH WALL TO WALL COUNSELING AND PLATOON CORRECTIVE ACTIONS.

Response by MSgt Eric Roseberry made Jun 15 at 2016 12:30 PM

MSgt Eric Roseberry — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:30:00 -0400

While Maynard "Snuffy" Smith was highly disliked, his 1st action as an Ariel gunner was with the crew that drew the short straw. Is a medal of honor recipient.

Response by MSgt Eric Roseberry made Jun 15 at 2016 12:34 PM

MSgt Eric Roseberry — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:34:44 -0400

Order the solider to fall out and report to the commander's office. 2nd refusal? Arrest and detain, have the MP's escort the solider.

Response by LCpl Mike MikeGoodpaster made Jun 15 at 2016 12:47 PM

LCpl Mike MikeGoodpaster — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:47:46 -0400

In my day in The Corps, you took him behind the quansent hut and beat him...

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 12:48 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:48:25 -0400

I separated from active duty as an Air Commando in 1971 and went full time Reserve with another Air Commando unit running the bomb dump. One of my clowns had this attitude when I assigned several of them to assemble munitions. I asked if he was sick and gave him the opportunity to go to sick call. He refused. I offered the option of another job. He refused. I got the LT involved and he used the same steps I did. He refused. The LT called the Major and had the clown arrested and eventually sent to the Disciplinary Barracks for a new tour of duty.

It was one thing refusing me, an NCO, but a whole new world refusing an officer. He did serve as a good example, though.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 1:02 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:02:40 -0400

As a NCO, you are responsible for enforcing the standards. In order to do this you must know what the standards are. Soldiers will respect you when you know what you are talking about and know the standards you are enforcing.

If you tell a Soldier to do something as long as it is legal the Soldier should execute it. If not, the question becomes what is it about you that makes the Soldier feel that he/she can just blow you off? Make sure you are enforcing the standards all the time and not just some of the time. Soldiers are always watching you whether you believe it or not.

Discipline is the key here. For some reason, the Soldier felt it was ok to display a lack of discipline towards you. I would put it in writing on a 4856, but I wouldn't recommend UCMJ punishment unless the Soldier has a behavioral pattern of been disrespectful. I would also give the Soldier corrective training. (Write on essay on why disrespect will not be tolerated in the unit and have the Soldier present it to other Soldiers in the platoon.)

NCOs have to enforce the standards. Show your Soldiers respect and demand the same from them.

Response by CW3 George Fitzgerald made Jun 15 at 2016 1:03 PM

CW3 George Fitzgerald — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:03:07 -0400

Front leaning rest, move....push til I'mean tired and he understands what he did wrong.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 1:03 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:03:50 -0400

Unfortunately you gotta play the new Army game, write em up till they can get separated... Not worth losing a chevron because of these immature pricks nowadays, I like my job and I have a family to care for. Not worth the drama...

Response by SGT Kenneth Connelly made Jun 15 at 2016 1:05 PM

SGT Kenneth Connelly — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:05:43 -0400

As the little puke has forgotten he/she is now government property, you take them, destroy the contraband, and if he/she touches you in the process you ‘defend' yourself and have them brought on assault charges via an Article 15.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 1:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:23:17 -0400

First, remove the soldier from the formation and have him/her in the front leaning rest position until the formation is dismissed. Then counsel the sm the proper uniform for formations. Corrective actions can be additional uniform inspections in different uniforms. This can go on a long time, but make sure the sm knows what time and where to report in the uniform assigned. Follow-up with 4856's for every infraction. I did quite a few push ups in my time and never made the same mistake again.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 1:24 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:24:53 -0400

1. Ask if they have a medical reason for refusing - eyes dilated, or recent surgery where the doc has directed them to wear sunglasses. If they do, they fall out of formation because you can't have sunglasses in a formation. End of story.
2. In the far more likely scenario they're being a duffle bag, then you have a variety of options varying from chewing them out on the spot to writing them paperwork. Article 92 is a nice catch all since it's "failure to follow orders or regulations and violation of orders/regulation'". Even if the Army doesn't have a specific reg to cover sunglasses in formation, you ordered him/her to take them off and they refused a lawful order. You can also take the track of making their life a misery but that takes a lot of your time and supervision. Personally, I prefer helping such folks out the door vs. taking up a majority of my time which should be spent on developing promising people vs. troublemakers. Most of the time we spend 80% of our time on the lowest 20%. I prefer to spend 80% of my time on the top 20% instead, since you wind up getting better results that way.

Response by SPC Deon Holmes made Jun 15 at 2016 1:36 PM

SPC Deon Holmes — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:36:36 -0400

Raise you voice, get up in his face and Once everyone understands that there is a problem child, you have many witnesses to the insubordination, and you snatch them off his pretty little face. Now you have grown some NCO balls, and you gained some respect! Then just add a little salt, you write his ass up! Getting attitude from pretty boy? Have him meet you out back and you bust his lip. End of story.

Response by SFC Wayne Theilen made Jun 15 at 2016 1:53 PM

SFC Wayne Theilen — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:53:31 -0400

Oh and write that soldier up...

Response by SN Terry Poynter made Jun 15 at 2016 2:07 PM

SN Terry Poynter — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:07:55 -0400

In the Old military, swift kick to the ass , in the new military, get ready to be reprimanded yourself for hurting his feelings

Response by CPT Quentin von Éfáns-Taráfdar made Jun 15 at 2016 2:09 PM

CPT Quentin von Éfáns-Taráfdar — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:09:58 -0400

You put it on paper, hand out "group punishment"; report it to the officer in charge; then begin to make his/her life hell with every dirty job you can; tell him/her that this purile little act will be remembered for a long time. In the old army he/she would not have worn them in the first place let alone defy such an order. He/she would have been given a "sgt.s article 15". The nco's would have taken him behind the barracks. When I was a sgt. we did this once and never had another problem.

Response by SSG Carl Bassemier made Jun 15 at 2016 2:13 PM

SSG Carl Bassemier — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:13:24 -0400

I find the Soldier after formation when there isn't as big an audience and we have a frank talk about oaths sworn, duties charged, UCMJ and other topics..?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 2:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:25:18 -0400

Where the hell is Gunny Highway when you need him?

Response by SGT James Hughes made Jun 15 at 2016 2:26 PM

SGT James Hughes — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:26:52 -0400

As a no coom youo may disiline the solider directly wi th ushus or other hysical taining, if the sunglasses are NOT Medical Nessasary. you can reort him/her as bieng out of Uniform . briing it to your command Sgt major and let them take it futher,

Response by SGT Lou Haarstick made Jun 15 at 2016 2:35 PM

SGT Lou Haarstick — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:35:27 -0400

GIVE SNUFFY AN ORDER ...IF HE DOES NOT COMPLY HAVE HIM ESCORTED TO THE 1ST SHIRT FOR ART15 PERIOD.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 2:52 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:52:40 -0400

After I made sure I heard that correctly, Half right, Face! Smoke them all. Let peer pressure deal with it. Then call him in for counseling on paper. And assignment to kp

Response by SGT Sean Brennan made Jun 15 at 2016 2:53 PM

SGT Sean Brennan — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:53:39 -0400

Well in my day of the Army, there would be some wood line wall to wall counseling. In today's new Army I can't say much for what should be do. It seems that they want you to write him/her up. I can't give the best advise, but I know when a private told me no on deployment, let's just say a medic had to be called to aide the young private.

Response by Cpl John Davis made Jun 15 at 2016 3:27 PM

Cpl John Davis — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:27:50 -0400

You sure you want a former Marine NCO's reply LOL. In the USMC there would be no paperwork needed to be done. First of all those sunglasses would have been crushed under my tank track, would have made him do it I was a USMC "Tanker" in the 1980's then he would grow old and grey before he ever got another liberty call, liberty to a Marine is like air to humans and he would spend the next month field daying the head. Problem solved and a tree saved, from not having to do all of that paperwork.

Response by Cpl Brian Way made Jun 15 at 2016 3:32 PM

Cpl Brian Way — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:32:10 -0400

I used to get with my platoon commander and schedule training time early am. Training to be set up after normal work hours. Then Basically hey you, you two, whatever, I'm going to need a machine gun pit dug, or wire strung, or something useful but equally wasteful of time. Then I'd take the time to dig the hole with them and I'd actually do the work with them, not "supervise" really hard to accuse your NCO with hazing when he's right there getting dirty and not asking them to do something you won't. it's punishment detail cleverly disguised as "good training" in a way that gives you plausible deniability. Of course I was a marine when red faced yelling was normally the most effective way of handling it. I always gave the choice, I write you up or you do the training class. Take your pick.

Response by MSgt Bill Loveli made Jun 15 at 2016 3:52 PM

MSgt Bill Loveli — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:52:09 -0400

Sunglasses in FORMATION! OK for you, army.
The Marine Corps does not permit ANY sunglasses in formation

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 3:58 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:58:32 -0400

Order given ,order refused. Seems pretty cut and dry to me

Response by 1stLt Kevin Paige made Jun 15 at 2016 4:00 PM

1stLt Kevin Paige — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:00:28 -0400

My NCOs Sgt Vale Price, Sgt Doug Culp would still be beating that ass 25 years later.

Response by CN Kenneth Rich made Jun 15 at 2016 4:11 PM

CN Kenneth Rich — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:11:40 -0400

Under ucmj any lawful order not followed is a criminal offense and punishable by court martial and a dishonorable discharge

Response by Cpl Chris Woodford made Jun 15 at 2016 4:12 PM

Cpl Chris Woodford — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:12:04 -0400

You put a whooping on that boys ass he will never forget and if you can't take him, obviously you have other NCOs you can muster and all beat him down. What's wrong with the discipline problem in the Army? Has it always been like this? In the Marine Corps, a Staff Sgt will rip an earring right from your ear and laugh about it.

Response by PV2 Adam Young made Jun 15 at 2016 4:15 PM

PV2 Adam Young — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:15:03 -0400

I understand the UCMJ, and abiding by it. But sometimes things make no sense. What does wearing sunglasses in formation hinder you from? The only problem I see here is him saying no to an NCO period. Its just some dog and pony show nowa days.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 4:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:26:14 -0400

With how the army is going nowadays, all you can do is put everything on paper. Document everything, that way if that same SM screws up or acts out again you can deal with them accordingly.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 4:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:26:36 -0400

What's a formation?

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 4:46 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:46:35 -0400

To provide the best answer to your question try this.

Find a good NCO that you trust. Refuse to follow directions.

The answer will become apparent.

Response by SPC James Gehringer made Jun 15 at 2016 5:19 PM

SPC James Gehringer — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 17:19:00 -0400

When I was in I would have found myself doing push ups until the sunglasses off my face then the Sgt in question would have " accidentally" stepped on them. and if I had refused the push ups then I would receive the article 15

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 5:38 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 17:38:20 -0400

Im a private still but I would take advice from a amazing sergeant that I had. He told us that he hates throwing the book at someone that he would do everything he could to fix it without ruining the soldiers career. Most of the time the punishment was so severe and sometimes creative to say the least you would never ever think of doing anything wrong again. A leader I truly will base myself off of when I eventually make it up to NCO

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 5:57 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 17:57:59 -0400

There's a few ways of going about this. I see a lot of people mentioning breaking them, but there is room to some level for saying wrongdoing on your part. Make that boot's life a living hell from every angle; any armed service member who disobeys a direct lawful order is far in the wrong and needs correcting. Make that bitch write an essay on proper uniform regs after PTing the entire group. They'll do some of the correcting for you as well.

Response by SPC Dan McGuigan made Jun 15 at 2016 6:07 PM

SPC Dan McGuigan — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:07:22 -0400

Just shoot him. Maybe boil him in oil. Wall to wall counseling? Exercise everyone till they drop? Sit down and talk with him? Explain to him? Coddle him? Or her for that matter. All of this is useless garbage. You disrespect an NCO or Officer you get spit in front of the commander. Minimum is 14 days extra duty. Happens again it's thirty days, two ranks, half pay. Fighting won't solve shit. Having another NCO there to lie and say the soldier swung first is the lowest of denominators. Take their time and money usually gets the job done. Or a blanket party.

Response by PVT Brittin Lang made Jun 15 at 2016 6:16 PM

PVT Brittin Lang — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:16:08 -0400

$200 for a pair of sunglasses is stupid anyway.

Response by SGT Robert Vollentine made Jun 15 at 2016 6:21 PM

SGT Robert Vollentine — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:21:23 -0400

Telling him to remove the sunglasses is a lawful order. I would definitely recommend for UCMJ actions because the Soldier obviously has no respect for authority and no discipline.

Response by MSG Franklin Mclelland made Jun 15 at 2016 6:49 PM

MSG Franklin Mclelland — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:49:01 -0400

If this was in a platoon/company formation. Then I would expect every NCO to step in and show solidarity with the NCO giving the order. The NCO should put a paper trail on SM and if this kind of behavior continues, then seek UCMJ action against SM. A good NCO will know if this SM is on profile or wears glasses, so that is a mute issue. The NCO does need to have a one on one with the SM to determine what is the matter or why the SM showed such disrespect to the NCO. Another NCO needs to be a witness to this meeting/conversation.

Response by A1C Patrick Simmons made Jun 15 at 2016 7:12 PM

A1C Patrick Simmons — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:12:03 -0400

you write him up for an Article 15 courts martial and 30 days CC

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 7:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:23:27 -0400

Reference AR 27-10 Failure to follow instructions.

Response by Sgt Eliazar Hernandez made Jun 15 at 2016 7:24 PM

Sgt Eliazar Hernandez — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:24:58 -0400

At that point in time as soon as he refused to remove his sunglasses every E5 and E4 should have made drill instructors look like Girl Scouts!

Response by SFC Don Ward made Jun 15 at 2016 8:09 PM

SFC Don Ward — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:09:06 -0400

Isn't this still a violation of Article 92 of the UCMJ - Failure to follow instructions?? That follows with a Chapter.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 8:34 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:34:37 -0400

This is one of those topics where you know what you want to do but want to save your career so you won't do what you want. Me personally, I would come up with a creative way to get my point across. I would hold formal platoon inspections of every single uniform that is worn and authorized. I would do it as extra military instruction. It fits the crime...unauthorized uniform articles so inspections and education of proper wear is conducted. And I would also place a formal counseling into his training jacket so that upon completion of EMI, if he continued you have enough grounds to push the NJP through.
If you go straight to the NJP, the offender will most likely continue their behavior. He broke the rules, you took rank and money away, what does he care if he breaks the rules again.

Response by SGT Greg Gold made Jun 15 at 2016 8:35 PM

SGT Greg Gold — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:35:30 -0400

I had a Soldier that liked to wear his Oakley's in formation, and claim he had medical issues that weren't in his file. He also liked to leave his stuff all over the place, then complain loudly when they weren't returned. Last I saw a bunch of his stuff was last seen in Jacksonville bay headed out to sea.......

Response by HN Gary Poore made Jun 15 at 2016 8:49 PM

HN Gary Poore — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:49:09 -0400

I would swiftly execute and show him/her the error of their ways and sternly remind them that this behavior is unacceptable and why there is a reason why there is order, discipline, and uniformity in order to keep and maintain the overall moral and leadership of the unit as a whole, and non-compliance has no room or you will suffer the results of office hours before the CO.

Response by SGT Sean Vineyard made Jun 15 at 2016 8:57 PM

SGT Sean Vineyard — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:57:13 -0400

failure to follow a lawful order, ucmj is the correct direction of problem continues after corrective training i.e flutter kicks until private cries

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 9:43 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 21:43:45 -0400

But does he have a profile sgt

Response by CPL Timothy Butler made Jun 15 at 2016 9:44 PM

CPL Timothy Butler — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 21:44:18 -0400

1st Question Is this the first incident
2nd Question is the troop squared away or is he a knucklehead
My response to this when I was in was to counsel the soldier verbally 1st time the 2nd time I would put it on paper 3rd time I would refer him up the chain of command for further action

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 9:44 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 21:44:41 -0400

It's called general NCO authority, all nco's have it... and what he did is defined simply as insubordination. If and only if his glasses as defined by AR 670-1 are out of regulatory standard. And if they aRe then you gave a lawful order and he projected insubordination. Drops mic

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 11:14 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:14:36 -0400

Crush him and his sunglasses! It looks like a good day for IMT all day long. High crawl, low crawl, react to indirect fire, it's not remedial training, it's Warrior Task Training.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 11:31 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:31:23 -0400

You stop being a baby and physically take that shit off his face. You're an NCO. Not a child. Handle him like a man.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 11:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:32:01 -0400

Finish the formation, Call to Attention! Say SM name and His Squad Leader in my office! Dismissed!!!

Tell SL to tighten the shot group of his troops prior to formations. Tell SM those sunglasses will never be worn at formation again. If they are you and your Squad Leader will get Articular 15 for not following my Orders.

Response by SFC Wayne Robinson made Jun 15 at 2016 11:38 PM

SFC Wayne Robinson — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:38:42 -0400

a reasonable idea, tell the Soldier to step out of ranks. tell the soldier to report to the First Sgt office.
Turn the platoon over to the next person in charge.
Follow the soldier to the office or First Sergeants office.
Inform he or she that they have two choices.
One. Put them in their pocket and don't wear them in formation again.
Two. Tell the soldier a lawful order was given and if they continue to disobey the order,
Read the soldier their rights and request UCMJ action. Request 14 days restriction, 14 days extra duty and reduction in rank one grade.
You as the Platoon Sergeant must ensure you do this process by the book so the sleeze bag can not go to the IG complaining of harassment.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 11:39 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:39:00 -0400

WOW!!! First off i am disappointed in alot of these leaders that say take the glasses off his face and crush them. Did the soldier just get PRK/LASIK? was that even asked? The profile for that is 365day for sunglasses and yes even in formation. Now here even the bigger issue I have seen an officer say UCMJ him and have him lose rank are you serious? I am 100% sure there are worse things that are going on in your trp/company/btry then someone thats wearing sunglasses in formation and it has been swept under the rug. Now for the NCO that asked this question. When the soldier said NO what did you do? run the the computer and ask this question? If it was me I would have pulled this soldier out of formation and had a talk and figure out why hes wearing the glasses there has to be a reason. If it a bullshit reason have him take them off if not straight to the leadership office and 4856 him. This is a new army and you have to change your leadership style along with the army changes or your just gonna get messed with. You cant smoke them so write them up

Response by SSG Richard Michalski made Jun 15 at 2016 11:48 PM

SSG Richard Michalski — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:48:07 -0400

Either do it or I guarantee that before I'm finished with you, you will wish to hell you did.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 11:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:49:45 -0400

Article 15 under Article 91 & 92 UCMJ. Drop the hammer. If a soldier is going to challenge your authority as a noncommissioned officer, then that soldier needs to be made an example to the others of that improper behavior and blatant disrespect will not be tolerated. There is no place in the Armed Forces for blatant disrespect of warrant, commissioned, or noncommissioned officers. All soldiers regardless of their rank need to have a full understanding of their place in the chain of command and the consequences of their actions. If you allow a subordinate to challenge your authority then they take away your powerbase in the eyes of all of your soldiers . This under no circumstances can be allowed to happen.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 12:03 AM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:03:15 -0400

Article 92. Failure to obey a lawful order. Place member on report via report of offense

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 12:04 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:04:40 -0400

How about failure to obey a lawful order?
Disrespect to an NCO?

I've seen it too much.....people who don't want to be the bad guy and try to cajole, coddle, befriend, bribe and beg for obedience. It doesn't work. You end up with a bunch of SFCs like the ones I work with now who grew up in the age where drill sergeants couldn't yell at them and they could get away with crap like this.

Once a Soldier has an MOS---professionalism (and following a lawful directive is the act of a professional) is not an option anymore. Don't ask for it--demand it. Put it in developmental counselings. Read about building the team. Team members pull their weight and do their share. Following basic uniform guidance is part of that. Does your 1SG /PSG have to call you out in formation and ask you why your troop is wearing ray bans in formation?

There are certain aspects of rapport building with a Soldier that is fine. You are dealing with disrespect. Any rapport you build here is you trying to be the good guy. In doing that, you are becoming more like him.....isn't he supposed to be getting more like you? You are the NCO, right?

I'm not saying to be a hammer. If you are only a hammer--then everyone else is nails. Put the standards down on paper and follow up with the good and the bad. The Soldier performance will dictate what you have to say. But you have to be holding up the standard.

You asked about UCMJ.....why don't you look there? 600-20 isn't going to tell you anything on this.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 12:10 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:10:25 -0400

If I had done this as a (Marine) PFC back in 2005, I have no doubt that the Corporals would have broken ranks and curb-stomped me until I was retarded. By the time I was a Sergeant, that particular tool was removed from my tool-box. On another note, I did commit this exact offense (refusing to remove my shades in formation) as a Corporal. Luckily, the Sergeant in charge of the formation was my friend, and he knew it was because I was completely shitfaced. Don't hate. We were all shitfaced.

Response by PFC O'neal Tillery made Jun 16 at 2016 12:42 AM

PFC O'neal Tillery — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:42:29 -0400

Brings back memories, alright, I'm a PFC put in charge of company formations for phase 4 soldiers (soldiers not authorized off post privileges during AIT) on weekends, duty NCO directed me that if I give a just and proper order to a soldier it should be taken as though it came from the NCOs mouth, soldier was wearing sunglasses in a company formation in which no one else was, also they were not in accordance with AR 670-1, directed soldier to remove them, SM refused, I removed and took SM to NCO, typical butt chewing was told her disrespected NCO by disrespecting me blah blah blah, NCO asks me what I would do in this situation since soldier already had a previous counseling for violation of 670-1, I recommended that SM write the section of 670-1, write 5 page essay on said section and why the should follow that section to be turned in the following day, and that SM is required to bring the offending article to all company formations for remainder of time in company and be recommended for Art15 for failure to obey a lawful order from a NCO if the sunglasses are not present at all formations, problem solved (SM ended up getting an article 15 for not turning in essay on time and NEVER bringing the sunglasses to formation, was asked several times to present them and was always met with an "I forgot Sgt")

Response by MSG David Johnson made Jun 16 at 2016 12:56 AM

MSG David Johnson — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:56:52 -0400

Peer pressure is also a great tool. If you've got a pos Snuffy let the squad, or platoon take care of his attitude.

That is after you remove his sunglasses for him. There is a great reply from a CSM but I can't find it again. Make sure you read all your replies.

Response by Cpl Jeffery Lucas made Jun 16 at 2016 12:59 AM

Cpl Jeffery Lucas — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:59:57 -0400

You crush them while still on his face.

Response by LCpl Jeffrey Baker made Jun 16 at 2016 1:05 AM

LCpl Jeffrey Baker — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 01:05:13 -0400

No UCMJ needed. A proper unit will police their own and get Snuffy squared away.....right away.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 3:28 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:28:39 -0400

Fuck him smoke his bags hen put it on paper - and make sure he knows that you are building a paper trail to kick him out.

Response by LCpl Todd Houston made Jun 16 at 2016 4:42 AM

LCpl Todd Houston — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 04:42:16 -0400

Paperwork sucks. For me that was a last resort. Id take him or her out of formation and treat them like the child they are. I always found kneeling in a corner holding a rock over their head, with sunglasses on of course, tended to result in desired behavior from then on. If not, then i would go to plan b. Full locker inspection in full alphas, class a for you army dogs, at about 0400 everyday. Basically, they would pay for their indiscretions one way or another.

Response by SGT Shane Allen made Jun 16 at 2016 5:05 AM

SGT Shane Allen — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 05:05:11 -0400

PT the dog piss out of the rest of the platoon while he watches. They will all know why it happened and take the appropriate disciplinary measures.

Response by SFC Thomas Cook made Jun 16 at 2016 6:23 AM

SFC Thomas Cook — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:23:17 -0400

It's in the UCMJ. Art 91, and 134a. Fry there ass.

Response by SSG Edward Dupass made Jun 16 at 2016 6:33 AM

SSG Edward Dupass — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:33:38 -0400

Reading some these answers I am at a loss for words. There have always been tools to handle disobedience (Counseling, Article 15, Courts-Martial) notice the order in which I listed them and smacking around was not an option. Problem is that many in leadership positions today see the overly dramatic representations of NCOs of the past and get carried away with their answers. Simple solution to this counsel, if that doesn't correct the problem in time article 15 (Non judicial punishment) or more depending on the case. ALL COMBINED WITH AN EXTRA DOSE OF TRAINING ON WHY THERE MUST BE UNIFORMITY AND ORDERS MUST BE FOLLOWED. If none of that works time to out process the soldier. The problem is many dont want to take the time to do that because you want to go home early or feel it's not your problem after 5pm.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 7:15 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:15:29 -0400

First I go nice and easy, if he or she refuse, I give a direct order if he or she refuse gues what UCMJ for disobey a dirrect order,

Response by SSgt Alan Cook made Jun 16 at 2016 7:30 AM

SSgt Alan Cook — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:30:55 -0400

if the person respect you they will do what they know they have to do or get in a world of hurt, if not maybe you are not demanding the authority as a squad leader, you are not their pal, you are the boss, if it was in a combat situation would you be on line asking?

Response by SFC David Xanten made Jun 16 at 2016 7:32 AM

SFC David Xanten — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:32:06 -0400

You ask, Why not and depending on his answer you proceed. He might have a medical reason to wear the glasses, if not than you MUST press charges or lose the respect of the entire group.

Response by SGT James Hammons made Jun 16 at 2016 7:34 AM

SGT James Hammons — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:34:33 -0400

I do not know what happened if the soldier is refusing the order, it may just be a sign of the times. I do know that I would have counseled the soldier on the proper wear of the uniform - The will find out about that when they go before a board. That of course is if they make it that far. You as a soldier will have to show that you counseled them. And have done so more than one time. Once that fails the consequence is recommended to the chain of command to reduce the rank of the soldier. If the soldier is the lowest rank then they should be taught and punished accordingly. Never loose your cool. But other NCOs in your unit should be helping you with that shoulder. I have seen too many NCO's pass the soldier off to the ragbag platoon, I always felt that this was no a good action. You yourself have to become harsh. Write them up, Train them on their time, and recommend Article 15.

Response by SSgt Brad Becker made Jun 16 at 2016 7:44 AM

SSgt Brad Becker — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:44:10 -0400

Walk up to him put your hands on his shoulders like your going to tell him a secret and knee the fucker in the nuts as hard as you can. Then take his sun glasses off his face and smash them with your foot. Then tell the little prick if he does it again your going to kick his ass. That's the old corps way. Or Just walk up and punch him in the gut as hard as you can, or smash him in the face with your fist break his nose. I know you can't touch them in the new Corp so no I have no answers for the newer gentler Marine Corps. Buy him a lolly pop. Or if he's gay give him a hand job.

Response by SSG Jerry Pannell made Jun 16 at 2016 7:49 AM

SSG Jerry Pannell — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:49:18 -0400

When you told the soldier to remove the sun glasses it a lawfull order if he refused then you write him or her up if you dont the others soldiers will think they can do what ever they want.

Response by MSgt Bruce Hutchinson made Jun 16 at 2016 7:52 AM

MSgt Bruce Hutchinson — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:52:45 -0400

Had a young Airman decide that he didn't have to show up for work on time on my last deployment to Kuwait. His separation had already been approved so any long term paperwork would have done nothing. So I took his failure to report to work on time as a request to extend his work shift. Each time he was late, he worked 2 hours over. It didn't matter to me, because my shift ran over too

Response by MSgt Robert Gardner made Jun 16 at 2016 8:01 AM

MSgt Robert Gardner — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:01:29 -0400

u c m j because monkey see monkey do--- if not all your troops will disobey your others
sub post you order them into combat and they refuse now what. they are in charge not you.
also, those troops can get you killed by not obeying an order no matter how small.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 8:16 AM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:16:05 -0400

Have you spoken with him on it in the past? Have you previously provided both formal and informal counseling? Have you utilized EMI. Basically have you exhausted every other avenue to correct the deficiency? If so it may be time to take him to see the skipper and hit him in the pocketbook. Is this the individuals only issue is wearing unauthorized glasses or are they a pain in the butt in multiple areas? Seems like a rather silly reason for them to see the skipper, but sometimes when all else has been exhausted it's time to seek outside help (ie the skipper). Their evals should reflect their non-conformance. At some point while it seems like a chicken crap problem, it will eventually erode the discipline and credibility of the leaders in your unit if they continue to blatantly disregard the regulations. Then it all goes to crap. Have you attempted to appeal to why what he's doing is wrong and that you need his support as well for the unit to function as a team. And of course there is just the old fashion butt chewing and dressing down. 10-15 years ago I'd have just gone high and right and taken his glasses off myself and crushed and done with it. Depending on the atmosphere and leeway in your unit, that probably wont' work anymore and you could get brought up on assault charges. Every situation is different.. Sorry did not give you a straight answer here, but hopefully some stuff to chew on.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Jun 16 at 2016 8:18 AM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:18:51 -0400

This is actually a sign of a bigger problem. If you're in formation and he is refusing in front of other troops then officially it is: "Conduct Prejudicial To Good Order And Discipline", which is a major offence against military law.
If the soldier disrespects your authority directly in front of soldiers? Article 15, reduction in grade. First time I did that in Europe when in 11th ACR, when one of my NCOs bought a similar problem up for a repeat offender, my commander considered it bad enough he recommended the soldier for a field grade Art 15. At the time, I was just a lit' bit (to say the least) surprised. I inquired as to the escalation.
The CO said the soldier had conducted previous 'challenges' to that SGT and other NCOs. He saw that it was effecting the 'good order and discipline' of the Troop. He was glad I had stepped up (since I was new) and carried the NCOs recommendation forward. That he had been waiting for an opportunity to officially address the issue. It seemed that since he had taken command a month before (two weeks longer than I) the LTC had briefed him about the problem and wanted him to solve it. He had tried to avoid non-judicial by 'being nice' but the majority of the troublemakers had been undisciplined for a long time. He had given a couple of Art 15s but the effect was nil.
The LTC took the soldier and at the advice of JAG summoned a special court-martial because of the official place and the possible number (the whole squad and two other NCOs and their 3 man details) of witnesses. The soldier was reduced from E4 to E1, received six months confinement and forfeiture of two-third’s basic pay per month for the six months.
The effect on the unit's discipline was profound. Soldiers acted better. The NCOs and officers (the 'Leaders') who had been letting it ride, tightened their own discipline up. The soldiers started to take pride in themselves and their Troop. Realistically the action taken against that soldier - who was clearly in the wrong - started the process. The unit, which in my opinion, had been real shaky, within 2 months was on time, at place and fulfilling their duties/jobs correctly - as a unit. It's all about leadership - which also requires enforcing warranted discipline.
At the end of six months, I escorted the soldier back to our garrison. The Army saw fit to keep the soldier and about a year later he received an honorable discharge. He elected to ETS, but about two years later I got a call while I was at FT Knox because he needed some statements about his improvement so he could be waivered to return to active duty as he was a Bronze Star holder.
1. Think about what you're going to/need to do.
2. Identify the sources of the problem.
3. Make your plan.
4. Discuss it with your leaders.
5. And since you have missed your mark. Give the soldier another opportunity to correct himself and if he doesn't then carry your plan through.
6. If your command won't back you? Go to the CSM (he handles NCO assignments for your unit) and formally request a transfer based on the above. Even if you don't get transferred their will be some strong winds scouring the area. People pay attention to CSMs.

Response by SFC Michael Baney made Jun 16 at 2016 8:44 AM

SFC Michael Baney — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:44:05 -0400

AR 670-1 IS VERY SPECIFIC. THIS CLOWN IS OUT OF UNIFORM UNLESS A DOCTOR HAS PRESCRIBED THEM. IF THE SOLDIER IS REFUSING HE DOESNT RESPECT YOU OBVIOUSLY. IF YOU DONT WANT TO LOOSE YOUR MILITARY BEARING YOURSELF THEN. WRITE HIM UP USING THE BELOW INFORMATION AND GET IT TO THE FIRST SERGEANT. IF I HAD BEEN YOUR LEADER, I'D BE JUMPING ON YOU FOR ALLOWING IT AND CONSIDERING WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE READY FOR LEADERSHIP OR NOT.

Wear of eyeglasses, sunglasses, and contact lenses
Found in Section 1.15 Page 9
Applies to Gender Both

a. Wear of eyeglasses and sunglasses.

(1) Conservative civilian prescription eyeglasses are authorized for wear with all uniforms.

(2) Conservative prescription and nonprescription sunglasses are authorized for wear when in a garrison environ-

ment, except when in formation and while indoors. Individuals who are required by medical authority to wear sunglasses for medical reasons other than refractive error may wear them, except when health or safety considerations apply. Soldiers may not wear sunglasses in the field, unless required by the commander for safety reasons in high- glare, field environments.

(3) Restrictions on eyeglasses and sunglasses. Eyeglasses or sunglasses that are trendy, or have lenses or frames with initials, designs, or other adornments are not authorized for wear. Soldiers may not wear lenses with extreme or trendy colors, which include but are not limited to, red, yellow, blue, purple, bright green, or orange. Lens colors must be traditional gray, brown, or dark green shades. Personnel will not wear lenses or frames that are so large or so small that they detract from the appearance of the uniform. Personnel will not attach chains, bands, or ribbons to eyeglasses. Eyeglass restraints are authorized only when required for safety purposes. Personnel will not hang eyeglasses or eyeglass cases on the uniform, and may not let glasses hang from eyeglass restraints down the front of the uniform.

Response by SSG William Zopff III made Jun 16 at 2016 8:46 AM

SSG William Zopff III — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:46:48 -0400

Find out why? What factors are driving this soldier? You will definitely need to document.

Is he/she trying to lower your standing to her/his peers? Take her/his power away, out of sight of her/his peers, and have a witness. Put the soldier in a position where they need to decide how many orders to disobey.

Such as, have a squad leader take the formation. Call the soldier and squad leader to the rear of the formation, out of hearing to platoon if possible.

Response by CMSgt Frank Dailey made Jun 16 at 2016 8:53 AM

CMSgt Frank Dailey — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:53:13 -0400

I will have to say you have not fully grown into your stripes and I first have to suggest you check yourself and get yourself in order. I ask you to repeat the NCO CREED out loud, Did you live up to it when your authority was challenged? As stated previously, you have to be swift and sharp with your response to this challenge. The fact this soldier challenged your authority in front of your unit has created doubt in your ability to lead more so your lack of immediate action has created a point when others will follow Private "shades" over you.

Now, that said...what to do, you have to remember you are part of a NCO and SNCO brotherhood and you have to use that to your advantage. Bring over one or more a couple other NCOs to see how cool he is in his shades... and as a team verbally encourage him to join the team. You may have to arrange the team of the Right NCOs and SNCOs to do this but it shows you are in lock step with the Senior Leaders but also shows that you are backed up by some muscle. Also engaging your NCOs and SNCOs will bring you experience and leadership associated with what we need to do to develop the young NCOs. STOP BEING AN ARMY OF ONE and be a part of the NCO Corp.

Keep the Faith

DY

Response by SGT Josh Suchoski made Jun 16 at 2016 9:01 AM

SGT Josh Suchoski — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:01:48 -0400

4856! If a soldier fails to correct themselves and is conceled three times for the same offense, that soldier can face UCMJ. I would just recommend creating a paper trail. Once it becomes obvious that the soldier has an attitude problem, kick his/ her sorry ass out of the army. You just have to have a paper trail.

Response by SGT Camron Loll made Jun 16 at 2016 9:14 AM

SGT Camron Loll — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:14:41 -0400

I was enlisted in the 82nd in the early 1990's (Bco 1/504) and have worked in Human Resources since the late 90's. I specialize in manufacturing and turnaround situations. I am now a Director of HR over 3000 people and have dealt with a lot of similar situations in the private sector.

I would agree with SFC Kelley's approach. I also understand a unit leader such as a production supervisor or NCO will have to evaluate some situations and remedial PT (in the military!) could be a possible solution.

Here is the problem with smashing his glasses or remedial PT.

1. What if he does not care / wants negative attention or is immature? Happens all the time now.
2. What do your actions say to your very best employees / soldiers. Frankly, I train my managers and supervisors that I will not tolerate yelling or other inappropriate conduct towards our production employees. Why? I care about how our top 20% view the workplace. Yelling does not impress your top performers. I want my supervisors to handle their business professionally and to know if they bring an issue forward it will be dealt with professionally by our managers or myself. This removes stress from our front line supervisors. They know they have support and our best performers see stability and professionalism. Top performers do not like chaos.
3. The bottom 10% of your employees / soldiers are disciplinary issues. Supervisors spend way to much time in these groups - don't. Yelling, smashing, and remedial PT will make you feel better than it is likely to affect the individual who is wearing the glasses. The time you are spending with this individual is time you are not spending with your best soldiers. It is easy to get pulled off task from building your team to dealing with one individual.
4. Providing top-line discipline (by the book) keeps supervisors out of any situation where their professionalism could be called into question, engages management (chain of command) with issues, and brings a timely end to that issue either with effective discipline, or termination.

The NCO and a manufacturing production supervisor share many of the same responsibilities on a day to day basis. I share this because I have been asked by others infantry NCOs for advise when leaving the military or when they came to work for a company I represented. What I have written above is the same advise that I would give a production supervisor or NCO.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 9:16 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:16:02 -0400

Response by SFC James Liedtka made Jun 16 at 2016 9:20 AM

SFC James Liedtka — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:20:28 -0400

Depends. If you are MDAY NG or TPU Reserve simply do not pay them. Pay is dependent on their being in the right place, in the right uniform, in accordance with AR 670-1, and following orders. Violation of any one of these is grounds to not receive BA pay. But it only works if your 1SG and Commander will support you.
Active Duty, they are yours 24/7 365. Start writing paper till you have carpal tunnel and then get rid of them. But again, it only works if the command is behind you. Worse case scenario... Old School readjustment.

Response by SFC Martin Applegate made Jun 16 at 2016 9:24 AM

SFC Martin Applegate — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:24:49 -0400

The NCO in charge should be specific about all formations and what to wear and what not to wear. if a soldier breaks the rules you tell them to remove the sunglasses, if they refuse you have them fall out and report to your office. Once there inform the soldier that you are writing them up for disrespect to a Non-Commissioned Officer and in the write up mention that wearing sunglasses in uniform without permission will not be tolerated and further instances could result in UCMJ. Make sure they clearly understand the infraction and sign the counseling. Done deal.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 9:29 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:29:41 -0400

Lose your mind on him. As a young SGT you should be the meanest NCO troops know. When I was a sergeant (E5) my senior NCOs often had to reign me back in. I say you take him around back smoke the shit out of him. Then if he doesnt get the message then counsel him. I think we are to quick to counsel instead of improving joes pt score which is what I tell my joes. "You are not getting smoked private, you are doing the minimum pushups for your APFT so your next PT score is higher". And you are improving joes physical readiness and readiness is the most important thing being pushed lately. Additional PT is not prohibited in any regulation I've read. So when they make a major mistake they do their minimum pushup or situps, making joe stronger also makes joe smarter.

Response by MSgt Art Busch made Jun 16 at 2016 9:32 AM

MSgt Art Busch — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:32:39 -0400

Tons of good info. here. Personally, I'd P.T. the formation for a while...All for one and one for all.

Response by A1C Allen Forbes made Jun 16 at 2016 9:34 AM

A1C Allen Forbes — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:34:24 -0400

For one it's not part of the military uniform. 2 refusing to follow orders. UCMJ ARTICLE 134. There you go.

Response by 2LT Nathaniel Koch made Jun 16 at 2016 9:34 AM

2LT Nathaniel Koch — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:34:46 -0400

I am currently in the process of finishing my packet for ocs to join the ARMY as an officer and it's small things like this that make me worry I'm going to get kicked out for beating someone down. As a Sergeant in the Marine Corps I wouldn't have had to face this. Even our shit bags had more respect than this and their peers would have beat them down in the formation if they saw someone doing it before a senior ever had to see it. Personally I'd make the whole formation suffer for not policing their own, as an enlisted of course. God only knows what I'm going to be able to do as an officer.

Response by TSgt Brian Barbour made Jun 16 at 2016 9:35 AM

TSgt Brian Barbour — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:35:12 -0400

Immediate, on the spot corrective action would be the first step. Re-issuing the directive to remove his sunglasses in a loud but professional manner, and then immediately taking it up the chain (if you are in formation as a Sergeant some or most of your immediate chain of command is more than likely there). If this is an otherwise decent soldier, maybe paperwork isn't the answer, but sometimes it is the only answer. If it is a soldier that has shown a pattern of disciplinary difficulty, sometimes the reality of an Article 15 proceeding can serve as a wake-up call. Every situation is different, every soldier is different.
The one clear thing is that there is NO WAY that soldier should have been allowed to remain in that formation with those unauthorized sunglasses on. Allowing that not only feeds his disciplinary issues, but sets an example for others. These type of situations are great learning tools for new NCO's, and can serve as training tools as well. The best overall advice, other than the above, is to go to your senior NCO's and ask them for guidance. They have most likely been in similar situations, and have that knowledge to pass on.

Response by SFC James Kebbel made Jun 16 at 2016 9:36 AM

SFC James Kebbel — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:36:39 -0400

In my Army I'd take the sunglasses off of his face. I don't know if you can do that now w/o getting an assault charge on you. Hit where it hurts, in the wallet

Response by GySgt Kent Murray made Jun 16 at 2016 9:38 AM

GySgt Kent Murray — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:38:10 -0400

First, I don't know what I would do, as I would be so Pissed. So here is what I would of done, I would had him step out of formation , take him behind it, and stand at attention and I would have a very strong discussion. If he refuses still, I would charge him Article 91 or 92 I think, failure to obey a lawful order

Also depending on your unit, culture, etc.. maybe a 1 on 1 talk behind close doors -hint! I used to have me and my fire team leaders and we would have a 1 on 1 discussion.

Also, there is the 2016 approach - Sit down and find out why he feels he doesn't have to take them off, etc..

I would say the 2016 approach also is charge him and be done.

Best of luck

Response by SSG Elizabeth Koss made Jun 16 at 2016 9:38 AM

SSG Elizabeth Koss — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:38:15 -0400

Alright...some great answers below...some not so great...so here from your friendly JAG NCO here...your best bet is to start getting the crap on paper (paper trails are your friend). Yes, you can recommend the Soldier for UCMJ, but if he is flat out refusing to listen to you over and over again, it is better to document it all. If after the third counseling, PVT Snuffy still does not want to change his evil ways, you may want to talk to your commander about an Article 15, showing him your documentation in that process so he/she can see what you are talking about.

Make sure that with those counselings, you are including the magic bullet statement at the end so that they know if their conduct continues, they can be punished under the UCMJ or even separated from the military.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 10:09 AM

A1C Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:09:50 -0400

The problem with today's military is command is so quick to jump to paperwork. This paperwork will follow him for the rest of his career and will stop him from advancing once he has matured and grown into a proper soldier. Saying no to an order is certainly grounds for paperwork I understand that, but in 8-10 years when he's trying to put on E-5 or even E-6 he won't be able to because he didn't take off his sunglasses? That seems harsh. Physical punishment should have been administered, a minute or two pushing dirt might have woken him up to his insubordination. Paperwork should be a last resort and for serious matters, instead of being passed out like it's candy.

Response by SGM Nathan Thomas made Jun 16 at 2016 10:10 AM

SGM Nathan Thomas — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:10:21 -0400

First I would let the soldier know that they are in violation of ART 92. Then I would document it in a counseling session, and then I would give him some additional training that was related to the infraction. I myself believed in additional training more than Art 15. I believed in taking time and have something that was related, so the soldier learned as well. Now if this is more than a one time thing and it seems I am not getting through, then I put them in for UCMJ action. I always told my troops when this happens it means I have basically given up on you and going to help you get back on the block or jail time. The ball is now in your court to prove you want to stay. Now I have said all that assuming you know the soldier and are aware of what is going on in their life in case this is not a usual act. The main thing though is you will have to maintain good order and discipline.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 10:10 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:10:51 -0400

Get animated! Provoke him verbally so that when he assaults you, it's self defense as you beat his ass.

Response by SPC LaVerne Hatch made Jun 16 at 2016 10:10 AM

SPC LaVerne Hatch — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:10:54 -0400

AR 670-1 Is a nonpunitive regulation. The trick is to verbally counsel the soldier, notifying them the sunglasses are not within compliance with AR 670-1, how they are not in compliance, what is within compliance, and that they are required to remove the sunglasses immidently.
If at that point the soldier fails to remove the glasses it is a violation of Article 92. If the soldier shows contempt and/or disrespect (other than failing to obey the removal of the sunglasses) it is an additional charge of 91.
No counseling is required, a simple sworn statement - DA Form 2823 is enough for this kind of situation.

For violations of the UCMJ look up a digital MCM.

Response by SGT Ronald Mitchell made Jun 16 at 2016 10:27 AM

SGT Ronald Mitchell — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:27:08 -0400

After I finished with this soldier, he'd know the company and battalion so well (following the extra duty from his article 15 and other restrictions) he'd wish he never bought those sunglasses! I wouldn't argue back and forth and just let my intelligence with the ink pen or computer have its way! Plain and simple!

Response by SFC Wayne Woollard made Jun 16 at 2016 10:28 AM

SFC Wayne Woollard — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:28:19 -0400

After formation take the individual aside with one witness, revert to general counseling, and explain that not only is he/she in violation to AR 670-1 see below, that under article 92 UCMJ a violation of Failure to Follow Instructions, and disobedience to a lawful order was violated. Let the individual know you could press charges, and request a article 32, but you will cut him some slack and submit counseling in writing and will be kept on file.

Eyeglasses, sunglasses, and contact lenses
Note: This paragraph is punitive with regard to Soldiers. Violation by Soldiers may result in adverse administrative
action and/or charges under the provisions of the UCMJ.
a. Eyeglasses and sunglasses.
(1) Conservative civilian prescription eyeglasses are authorized for wear with all uniforms.
(2) Conservative prescription and nonprescription sunglasses are authorized for wear when in a garrison environment,
except while indoors. Individuals who are required by medical authority to wear sunglasses for medical reasons,
other than refractive error, may wear them, except when health or safety considerations apply. Commanders may
authorize sunglasses in formations or field environments, as appropriate.
(3) Eyeglasses or sunglasses that are trendy or have lenses or frames with conspicuous initials, designs, or other
adornments are not authorized for wear. Soldiers may not wear lenses with extreme or trendy colors, which include,
but are not limited to, red, yellow, blue, purple, bright green, or orange. Lens colors must be traditional gray, brown, or
dark green shades. Personnel will not wear lenses or frames that are so large or so small that they detract from the
appearance of the uniform. Personnel will not attach chains or ribbons to eyeglasses. Eyeglass restraints (to include
bands) are authorized when required for safety purposes. Personnel will not hang eyeglasses or eyeglass cases on the
uniform and may not let glasses hang from eyeglass restraints down the front of the uniform. Glasses may not be worn
on top of the head at any time.
(4) Soldiers are authorized to wear ballistic spectacle eye protection issued by the Army, including lens colors or
logos that do not comply with paragraph 3–10a(3), above, in garrison or field environments unless otherwise directed
by their chain of command. See the Army Combat Readiness Center for a list of currently approved protective
eyewear.
b. Restrictions on contact lenses. Tinted or colored contact lenses are not authorized for wear with the uniform. The
only exception is for opaque lenses that are prescribed medically for eye injuries. Clear lenses that have designs on
them that change the contour of the iris are not authorized for wear with the uniform. Contact lenses may be restricted
by the commander for safety or mission requirements.

Response by SGT Benjamin Foster made Jun 16 at 2016 10:28 AM

SGT Benjamin Foster — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:28:43 -0400

Smoke the shit out of that soldier, but don't take it to far. If that fails, then get the Captain to back you on an Article 15. Troops live's depend on listening to NCOs. I once pushed an article 15 through on a soldier who refused an order from my Lt. This new army where soldiers disrespect NCOs is bullshit.

Response by PO1 Clint Miller made Jun 16 at 2016 10:29 AM

PO1 Clint Miller — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:29:53 -0400

Sounds more like disrespect to you and not the rank/position. I would first try a one to one conversation and try to salvage a working relationship, explaining the consequences to follow if lawful orders are not followed. Subsequent infractions would then be written up

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 10:32 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:32:08 -0400

Counsel using regulatory guidance and your power and authority as a a NCO. If the Soldier is not yours make the correction and contact their supervisor.

Response by PO1 Tracy Dreyer made Jun 16 at 2016 10:33 AM

PO1 Tracy Dreyer — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:33:44 -0400

That this is even being asked as a question makes me so glad I am no longer in.....

Response by CPO Gary Andrews made Jun 16 at 2016 10:35 AM

CPO Gary Andrews — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:35:52 -0400

It's very simple. Give the soldier the shitiest detailsyou can find. Tell the soldier that is why you are doing this. Also, before you do it, tell the CSM what you are doing. Leave NJP out of it. However, I would pull his/her liberty until it's over. That person would then be on my shit list. Let your people know you have a shit list.

Response by SGT James Vandevender made Jun 16 at 2016 10:44 AM

SGT James Vandevender — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:44:48 -0400

if they refuse, only tell them once and if the person doesn't comply you remove them and crush the glasses. your the one in charge show it.

Response by 1SG William Wayne made Jun 16 at 2016 10:44 AM

1SG William Wayne — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:44:51 -0400

So your saying there is nothing in the UCMJ about following Orders. If as a higher rank you give a solider a lawful and moral order and he /she dont comply I can think of 1/2 a dozen UCMJ actions. Now before you go down that path. Is there a medical reason for the glasses? If not and the order is lawful. Conduct unbecoming, Failure to follow orders, Disrespect to NCO,

Me on the other hand loves peer pressure. I can stand in the sun and talk about the need for uniformity of our military and the discipline and support of solidres for hours. At the end of hour 1 at about 1730 because you dont want to have an un authorized or a punishment formation. I would ask privet X what he thinks. If he is so dumb that he dont get it then on for about 15 min and ask solider X neighbor in formation what he thinks about uniformity. I will bet by 1800 Trooper X with un authorised what ever will have his gear together. If it happens the next day same drill. I am sure the PLT will fix the problem

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 10:45 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:45:12 -0400

600-20? What the hell are you looking in there for? Disobeying a lawful order. Art 15. Especially in an instance like this. If you tell a Soldier to remove their sunglasses because they are in formation, that is a lawful order. If the Soldier blatantly just says "No." And there are no extenuating circumstances, that is blatant disobedience. No room for that mess. Stop looking in 600-20 and look in the MCM.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Jun 16 at 2016 10:45 AM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:45:33 -0400

Document, document, document, in clear non anger clouded minimal language each and every failure to follow orders. If possible have a witness or two, do not lose your temper or go full metal jacket on this special little snow flake. Seek additional guidance from your fellow NCO's on up to your PSG, handle it at your lowest level. If Mr. Hollywood still fails to follow orders from all of those NCO's then UCMJ will adjust his collar and pay pretty soon. Above all make sure you are right and have in writing the regulation paragraph, sub paragraph handy for your COC. What ever you do don't lose your military bearing or make threats and this will get fixed very quickly. In the old days a different approach would be used that is unacceptable in these PC, every special snowflake needs a hug days and can lead to the NCO getting in big trouble. If it were me these days would lose stripes and snuffy would have Irish sunglasses.

Response by PO1 Mile Oconnell made Jun 16 at 2016 10:46 AM

PO1 Mile Oconnell — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:46:52 -0400

remove, destroy and art 134 , we have no place in our military for this type behavior

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 10:48 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:48:32 -0400

Wow. Are you serious? Unbelievable that a troop would defy such a direction. Things really have changed. We would be pounding dirt and moving rocks for days if we tried that. I would say to hand them over and they get them back after duty hours; and then PT them!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 10:49 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:49:43 -0400

Don't be so quick to jack up someone's career. You need to take the time to find out the problem with the member. Sometimes they are going through something and the only way they know how to deflect whatever they are going through is to act out like a child. Pull the individual aside and talk with him/her. You just might find out something about them that you can really assist with. We as NCOs need to be a little bit more compassionate and gentle. I assume the individual is your subordinate? You don't have to hold their hand but you do need to listen and watch more closely. We are having too many of our soldiers committing suicide for the very same thing that you are trying to do....mess up their career.

Response by SSG Ron Randell made Jun 16 at 2016 10:51 AM

SSG Ron Randell — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:51:47 -0400

When a soldier disobeys a lawful order UCMJ action should be taken. There is a difference between slowly complying to an order , than outright refusing one. In which an official counseling is most likely to take place .

Response by PO2 Jonathan Clemons made Jun 16 at 2016 10:55 AM

PO2 Jonathan Clemons — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:55:24 -0400

You dismiss the soldier in question from formation the first time and have them do shit duties, bring it up with your immediate Chain of Command as a paper trail and go about the rest of your day. UCMJ is not required for this. What they need is a lot of hard work digging holes and filling them, useless tasks while making it clear that if they are not going to conform to your directive then they will get the worst, dirtiest, degrading jobs you can find for them. Make it clear in your reports why you are doing this so you are not seen as discriminating. You are doing this as a lesson and make that clear, with no bias. Men and women who do not conform like this tend to look for excuses to support their actions. When in doubt ask your fellow SGTs..... but UCMJ is not to be used for minor things like this. I used to have people like this clean ditches with no equipment and then I would inspect those ditches requiring them to be clean.

Response by MSgt Michael Lane made Jun 16 at 2016 10:56 AM

MSgt Michael Lane — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:56:32 -0400

You document the infraction of the eyewear in formation for refusing an order you immediately remove them from formation take directly to First sergeant and I would highly recommend article 15 action failure to obey an order and conduct unbecoming. You can’t allow for any reason for this not to go unpunished. In the field you have to be able to trust that your orders will be followed and if you don’t have confidants in the solder then it will affect your decisions and that my friend is when people die.

Response by SFC Bayardo Reyes made Jun 16 at 2016 10:57 AM

SFC Bayardo Reyes — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:57:40 -0400

Questions..
Is he/she assigned to you?
on the initial/reception counseling specifically comments about abiding by AR670-1 and unit Standards?
any history of other infractions? << any written trail?

Response by CPO Bill Canada made Jun 16 at 2016 10:58 AM

CPO Bill Canada — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:58:12 -0400

In my day a sailor refusing to follow a lawful order found himself in deep shit. I would arrange for him to do the worst jobs I could find along with curtailing his liberty. If that did work he would eventually find himself at Non judicial punishment.

Response by SGT James Vandevender made Jun 16 at 2016 11:00 AM

SGT James Vandevender — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:00:00 -0400

that's the problem with the military today, too much disrespect, they disobey orders ...what do you think is gonna happen if they go to combat. the enemy isn't gonna give them a stress card or sugar coat anything for them. To much political BS.

Response by SGT Michelle Benavides de Dominguez made Jun 16 at 2016 11:01 AM

SGT Michelle Benavides de Dominguez — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:01:44 -0400

I had a soldier not follow orders once, and only once... I believe he didn't want to follow my orders because I was a female NCO in charge. I basically told him he could follow said orders being that I'm being "nice" about it ( I took him off to the side to speak with him) and if he didn't like it I could get someone else (higher ranking) to give him the orders and they would not be so nice about it! Now it took him less than a second to think about it and follow thru w orders. I could make a big stink about him not following orders and go thru to the paper work shuffle or we could handle this like adults...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 11:03 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:03:05 -0400

first ask the soldier for the glasses, if he/she refuses AGAIN, remove them from said soldier's head. IF the soldier attempts to block you (NCO) BLOCK HIM/HER...it should NOT have to get this far...IF it does, it tells me an awful lot about what has become of the army....

Response by PO1 James Friedman made Jun 16 at 2016 11:06 AM

PO1 James Friedman — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:06:45 -0400

UCMJ Article 92
Failure to obey a lawful order.

Response by MSgt Tommy Whitfield made Jun 16 at 2016 11:09 AM

MSgt Tommy Whitfield — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:09:50 -0400

Couple of ways to handle this but it must be addresses at the time of incidence. One respectfully remove the sunglasses from the soldiers face and hand them to him if knowing the personality of the soldier. Some do for attention and they just might get the attention they deserve. Two ask the soldier to remove their sunglasses willingly. Soldier refuses pull from the formation have a quick one way conversation with them and then with a higher from the chain of command to reinforce and witness the actions of the soldier. Next knowing the soldiers personality as a trouble maker or having a bad day, reassure them of the ramifications of being a soldiers and to follow the chain of command. This will tactfully get the. Back on track or help them on their merry way with a lost of rank, promotion, benefits, and best of all pay.

Response by SGT Damon Garland made Jun 16 at 2016 11:10 AM

SGT Damon Garland — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:10:11 -0400

This is easy it actually falls under Ar 670-1 uniform policy, due to the army policy on umiformity. You can find authorized eyewhere there. This falls under the same guise as jungleboots in formation, without the commanders expressed permission in a policy letter it violates the uniformity rules of the Army unless the eyewhere is prescribed.

Response by SFC Bayardo Reyes made Jun 16 at 2016 11:12 AM

SFC Bayardo Reyes — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:12:46 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member This is where you will go for the win, if you conducted your counseling right where he/she also signed as understanding what is expected, you can use as fire power. If he refuses to remove shades, whats the point on physical corrective training, hes not going to listen to you right? I would suggest [if wanting to self-develop] to find two books I recommend, The Three Meter Zone: Common Sense Leadership for NCOs and Engaged Leadership and Engaged Leadership: Building a Culture to Overcome Employee Disengagement. Have to be careful when dealing with this type of situation. Have to take under consideration about how much support you are getting from your chain of command. Just by trying to grab hes shades can be considered assault even if it was a correction.

Response by SFC Chuck K made Jun 16 at 2016 11:14 AM

SFC Chuck K — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:14:04 -0400

Its not only a question of uniform standards, its insubordination. Counseling and recommendation for UCMJ is called for. If not addressed the negative behavior will continue and more Soldiers will be emboldened to replicate the behavior and the problem will become worse as you lose credibility and authority as a NCO.

Response by GySgt Jerry Austin made Jun 16 at 2016 11:15 AM

GySgt Jerry Austin — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:15:09 -0400

Unless they are prescriptive sunglasses and medically required, this person is disobeying a lawful order. He or she is subject to the UCMJ, article 15, NJP. As being an old Gunny I would probably just remove them and crush them into little pieces and if the whiner goes complain to some softhearted superior so be it. I have no issues in having a back room talk with any of my superiors, especially when it comes to a Marine, Soldier, Navy or Air Force person disobeying a lawful order (Article 91—Insubordinate conduct toward warrant officer, NCO, or PO).
Elements that pertain to disobeying a lawful order
Disobeying a warrant, non-commissioned, or petty officer.
(a) That the accused was a warrant officer or enlisted member;
(b) That the accused received a certain lawful order from a certain warrant, non-commissioned, or petty officer;
(c) That the accused then knew that the person giving the order was a warrant, non-commissioned, or petty officer;
(d) That the accused had a duty to obey the order; and
(e) That the accused willfully disobeyed the order.

Response by SMSgt Sheila Berg made Jun 16 at 2016 11:17 AM

SMSgt Sheila Berg — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:17:30 -0400

Have a meeting with First Sergeant, yourself and the Soldier. It will take the pressure off of you. The 1st Sgt. Should document the meeting for future problems. Find out what's behind the resistance.

Response by SFC Charles Pervall made Jun 16 at 2016 11:24 AM

SFC Charles Pervall — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:24:54 -0400

You have to due to the fact that the soldier is disrespecting the NCO in front of the other soldiers. This was probably not the first time. As a NCO you must demonstrate to everyone that this behavior will not be tolerated. I think I once read something about disoberying a lawful order. I'm sure there is some sort of UCMJ punishment for this.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Jun 16 at 2016 11:29 AM

GySgt Charles O'Connell — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:29:59 -0400

After I had disposed of the offending eyewear I would come up with a training exercise to be undertaken by errant young Soldier/Sailor/Airman/Marine that would set forever in their brain housing group the importance of, "cheerful willing obedience to orders". And how failing to adopt a correct attitude could possibly have a detrimental affect on their future military career, not to mention their immediate health.

Response by SSG Calvin Grant made Jun 16 at 2016 11:35 AM

SSG Calvin Grant — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:35:46 -0400

First thing you have to do as a Non-Commissioned Officer is look in the mirror and ask yourself how did this come to be. E-4's and below are never wrong, they are only as wrong as we allow them to be. Bring the soldier in sit him or her down and see if their is any underlying issues. UCMJ should be the last recourse for a Non-Commissioned Officer (unless it is a serious offense) you have plenty of tools in your toolbox to correct this trivial issue. There was a time when the NCO Creed stood for something.

Response by MSgt James Long made Jun 16 at 2016 11:38 AM

MSgt James Long — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:38:02 -0400

Disobedience of a lawful order. Due process and chain of command. Without obedience, there can be no order or discipline.

Response by MSgt Dennis Bailey made Jun 16 at 2016 11:39 AM

MSgt Dennis Bailey — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:39:47 -0400

If the formation is moving. Call an immediate halt. Announce to the formation that you are going to keep them there, until you decide whether to seek non-judicial punishment against the troop for violating regulations, and disobeying a lawful order. Then place them at ease, and let peer pressure take it's course. If after a couple of minutes the disobedient troop hasn't complied with your order, pull him out of formation, and have a ranking individual take over the formation, so you can escort the troop to the First Sergeant and have him/her read their article 32 rights... If peer pressure works, have a counseling session later that includes the troop's supervisor and First Sergeant. Sometimes letting the troop see the Manual for Courts Martial and the punishments authorized for the crime, brings them back to the military reality.

Response by Sgt Arthur Cuelho made Jun 16 at 2016 11:45 AM

Sgt Arthur Cuelho — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:45:11 -0400

You could just take them off his face, but be ready for him to throw a punch and deal with him. Mr Sunglasses could be doing every shit job in world, Mr Sunglasses room is constantly failing Inspection, Mr Sunglasses platoon is constantly getting the short end and make sure they are aware as to why.

Or just do paper on him, take some stripes and get him kicked out. Because if you don't get rid of him or solve the problem another way his attitude is going to spread.

Response by SFC Ira Moe made Jun 16 at 2016 11:58 AM

SFC Ira Moe — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:58:15 -0400

I would suggest you take them off, put them in your pocket and tell the soldier he will get them back at the end of the day.

Response by MSG Kerry Edwards made Jun 16 at 2016 12:04 PM

MSG Kerry Edwards — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:04:13 -0400

I would council him/her in writing about the wearing of unauthorize sunglasses and put them on a few days of extra training.

Response by SFC James Valero made Jun 16 at 2016 12:07 PM

SFC James Valero — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:07:29 -0400

Set him up for failure!
Recommend Soldier for urinalysis, then counsel on duty performance as "Consistently late"
Refusal to submit to drug screening is grounds for "Suspicion of deception" because refusal to show dilated pupils is an indicator of substance abuse...do so publicly, but not maliciously:
"Sunglasses again? Ok, random drug test after formation...oh you can keep them, paperwork is already started." -Classic passive aggressive

Response by SFC Garry Kolberg made Jun 16 at 2016 12:21 PM

SFC Garry Kolberg — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:21:23 -0400

Take the glasses and tell the soldier that he can pick them up at the end of the day by going to the 1SG's office or the Commanders. Also inform him/her that future failure to comply with orders will lead to more severe discipline action.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Jun 16 at 2016 12:26 PM

SFC John Fourquet — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:26:09 -0400

Provide remedial training to correct the problem. In that case being failure to follow orders. Seek advice from the PSG on what training to provide. Counsel the soldier on the problem, the corrective training you are providing and the consequences of repeated failures to follow orders.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 12:27 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:27:56 -0400

Ask for a profile

Response by SFC Ronald Hebert made Jun 16 at 2016 12:31 PM

SFC Ronald Hebert — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:31:12 -0400

If this soldier doesn't have a profile for mentioned sun glasses. Talk to him about this matter in private and with no witnesses present, kick his ass, smash the glasses and warn him/her he/she will have glasses shoved up their ass if this occur in the future. PS: Leave no marks on said soldier, use rolled up news paper, rubber hose, etc.

Response by SFC Mamerto Perez made Jun 16 at 2016 12:32 PM

SFC Mamerto Perez — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:32:43 -0400

Right him/her up and bring it to the attention of the 1st Sergeant.

Response by SGT Jay Ehrenfeld made Jun 16 at 2016 12:44 PM

SGT Jay Ehrenfeld — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:44:09 -0400

Sgt,
If the sunglasses is unauthorized under AR 670-1 and SM refuse to remove them. on the spot correction under AR 670-1 .
Then give him an verbal counsel then a written counsel statement if he refuse to sign then put refuse to sign.
Then talk to the squad leader then let the squad leader deal with him.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 12:44 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:44:31 -0400

You guys still hashing this out? Yes put it on paper, then take his time money and rank. We're talking disepline here. Allow one to see you have no spine and you'll no longer be an effective leader. But be cosistant , be fair.I always hated working for some one who blew hot and cold .

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 1:00 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:00:44 -0400

The fact is we are dealing with a new generation of Soldiers.... Back in the day the word of an NCO was respected. Within the last few years we been moving into a "be fare" with Soldier.. and we have created a new culture where this generation has lost the respect to NCOs, if we use a bite of voice infliction and put out one way communication when its needed.. its a garanteed EO or some other type of complaint.. The result, todays NCOs have their hands tied to point... with that said... bring on the pens and plenty of 4856's... that's the way we build up a good solid case to weed out those none AR and Policy complience Joe's, through black and white... as I said we have our hands tied to a point... not totally tied..

Response by SSG Calvin Grant made Jun 16 at 2016 1:10 PM

SSG Calvin Grant — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:10:53 -0400

Soldiers refuse to follow orders when we fail to provide them with the leadership they deserve.
Paragraph 2 NCO CREED sates:
Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always remain uppermost in my mind-accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers. I will strive to be technically and tactically proficient. I am aware of my role as a Noncommissioned Officer. I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishments.

Response by SP5 Andy Downs made Jun 16 at 2016 1:22 PM

SP5 Andy Downs — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:22:46 -0400

well the best thing I can tell you is tradition and honor.... from a soldiers first day at the recuter office you take a oath to obey all orders given to you by all above u weather nco or officer ....
to not remove yr sunglasses a simple request, is thoroughly stepping all over the honor code not to mention the traditions of the military... when I first come in the army if you did not do as asked a nco would make you do it then if u didn't want to do it the nco would roll u I the dirt then if u still had a issue beat u into the dirt and if that didn't work they would catch u alone and fix u up right.... then if that didn't work then u could article them as a unfit soldier... bottom line is its up to the nco to make the soldier listen.... it sucks that the new military has nco's hands tied up like this due to politically correct bullshit. never disrespect a soldier but always keep command... I ve had soldiers like this in the past its difficult sometimes but in simplicity a 2x4 will work the best on them

Response by SGT Dropzone Whiplash made Jun 16 at 2016 1:25 PM

SGT Dropzone Whiplash — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:25:49 -0400

Well I can tell you without a seconed thought ,that if in Bat( RLTW) as in 2D /75 back in 70's? Your ass was down the road ! But that would never happen in the first place. Not sure how the RA would handle that

Response by SSG John Moss made Jun 16 at 2016 1:30 PM

SSG John Moss — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:30:53 -0400

"Backbone of the Army!" My very first (and last) time I rebelled against NCO authority was as a basic trainee I agreed to meet drill at the back of the barracks to discuss our difference's. I met 3 drills and was properly counseled. I utilized that very effective approach a few times thruout my career with resounding success. The SMs almost to the man turned out to be excellent soldiers later. just needed a lil "corrective training". You've got no time for this crap Backbone unless the Army's changed more than I suspect! Make an example out of this leadership challenge that will discourage other leadership challenges. This is a perfect example of "NCO" business. My peers and I would have dealt with this and officers would only be involved if we had a leadership failure! We all know NCO's don't fail

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 1:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:32:12 -0400

Retire. If you can't enough respect from a soldier to get him to remove his/her glasses by asking then you should check yourself.

Response by SFC John Mikelson made Jun 16 at 2016 1:35 PM

SFC John Mikelson — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:35:56 -0400

Write him up in 1:1 counseling. After 3. Recommend article 15

Response by MSgt Wes Tracy made Jun 16 at 2016 1:38 PM

MSgt Wes Tracy — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:38:26 -0400

I see many responses of using physical violence, removing his personal property and destroying it, etc. What I haven't seen is to first ask the individual if he/she has a medical waiver or doctor's order allowing the shades.

Response by CPO Brian Pederson made Jun 16 at 2016 1:39 PM

CPO Brian Pederson — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:39:28 -0400

Write his sorry ass up

Response by SGT Dennis Bolin made Jun 16 at 2016 1:50 PM

SGT Dennis Bolin — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:50:57 -0400

take away his or her free time weekends make them go to sdnco or cq every hour on saturday and sunday for a weekend and sign in for 12 hours or have them go to the motor pool on there free time and clean vehicles and if they disobey Article 15 that ass take money, rank, and extra duty bn or co level

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 1:56 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:56:48 -0400

SGT Hamilton, the first thing I would do if I had a soldier who refused to listen is incorporate some corrective training. If that fails, then I'd start the paper trail. Just saying.

Response by MSgt Christopher Schoen made Jun 16 at 2016 2:16 PM

MSgt Christopher Schoen — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:16:32 -0400

Huh? Make that SOB Elvis impersonator an example. We need leaders, not folks questioning what they should or should not be doing SGT.

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Jun 16 at 2016 2:20 PM

PO1 Aaron Baltosser — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:20:22 -0400

Documentation is your friend. Even the counseling was verbal, document in a file Verbal Counseling was needed. The Soldier will either get with the program, or get gone.documentation will show a change either way.

Response by 1SG Scott Fredrickson made Jun 16 at 2016 2:35 PM

1SG Scott Fredrickson — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:35:46 -0400

What I would wanr to do and what I would do are two different things, i would want to rip them off his face smash them and then smoke the shit out of him, but since that would be destruction of property and considered abuse I would UCMJ him to the fullest of my ability and he would suffer down the road and affect his promotion chances for something that could have been solved and forgotten about

Response by SPC David S. made Jun 16 at 2016 2:41 PM

SPC David S. — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:41:02 -0400

You come see me - an E-4 and I knock that crap out of his wise ass. You write us both up - put him on restrictions for starting it and give me a warning letter. My paper work somehow gets lost - his article 15 for disobeying a lawful order doesn't.

Response by SFC Glenn Cober made Jun 16 at 2016 2:45 PM

SFC Glenn Cober — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:45:20 -0400

(1) In general. Article 91 has the same general objects with respect to warrant, noncommissioned, and petty officers as Articles 89 and 90 have with respect to commissioned officers, namely, to ensure obedience to their lawful orders, and to protect them from violence, insult, or disrespect. Unlike Articles 89, and 90, however, this article does not require a superior-subordinate relationship as an element of any of the offenses denounced. This article does not protect an acting noncommissioned officer or acting petty officer, nor does it protect military police or members of the shore patrol who are not warrant, noncommissioned, or petty officers.

Response by SFC Glenn Cober made Jun 16 at 2016 2:46 PM

SFC Glenn Cober — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:46:21 -0400

You have a few options under (1) In general. Article 91 has the same general objects with respect to warrant, noncommissioned, and petty officers as Articles 89 and 90 have with respect to commissioned officers, namely, to ensure obedience to their lawful orders, and to protect them from violence, insult, or disrespect. Unlike Articles 89, and 90, however, this article does not require a superior-subordinate relationship as an element of any of the offenses denounced. This article does not protect an acting noncommissioned officer or acting petty officer, nor does it protect military police or members of the shore patrol who are not warrant, noncommissioned, or petty officers.

Response by SPC Andrew Hopkins made Jun 16 at 2016 2:47 PM

SPC Andrew Hopkins — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:47:44 -0400

Just reading through you "leaders" answers all I can do is think wow. Old one nailed it, you all talk about this and that all of which are not within the parameters of regulations. Yet you want to come down on a lower enlisted for not being in regs with dress or action.
Hypocrites and clowns only one answer was correct. You are gonna violate regs to correct a violation of regs? One day you'll get bold try this with the wrong Joe and find yourself flat of back gazing at the sky, you'll jump up and scream and cry assaulting an NCO.
Zero professionalism
Education, 4856, corrective action, plan of action, and then you UCMJ.

In no way am I defending this PVT, or condoning the unprofessional behavior. Professional begats professional and so.

Response by SgtMaj Robert Williams made Jun 16 at 2016 2:53 PM

SgtMaj Robert Williams — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:53:04 -0400

Take the damn glasses and have him report to you after formation and have his/her ncoic present and award manual punishment. There is no need to ruin an enlistment for a small fraction but if he refuses your punishment then hang him/her out to dry.

Response by Sgt Gary Taylor made Jun 16 at 2016 3:11 PM

Sgt Gary Taylor — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:11:29 -0400

In the MARINES we never had that problem. When I did write someone up on was theft, gross mis-conduct and drunk on duty. Other ways around NJP was range details, mess duty, fire watch until they dropped, liberty taken away, I tried hard NOT to issue NJP...

Response by PO3 Mark Gray made Jun 16 at 2016 3:12 PM

PO3 Mark Gray — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:12:17 -0400

Depends on what the order is. If the directions are illegal, that soldier should ask for that order in writing so there is a paper trail. Had a friend get in trouble for deep sixing gear and had the order in writing the next time. The order came again and he had the order in writing and got sent to the captain. The officer who gave the order went to the brig for quite a while.

That being said, if none of those conditions exist and the soldier isn't following orders, maybe something is bothering the soldier. Before any njp or courts martial, send him to a psychologist to see if there is something wrong. If there is, help him. If not, then that can be evidence before a courts martial.

Using the example of the soldier and the sunglasses. If there's something in his medical record to authorize wearing the sunglasses, an officer authorized it and doesn't have to take them off unless a senior doctor says otherwise.

If they're not authorized, a trip to stick bay to see if there are anything requiring a prescription sunglasses and if the doctor says no, then you got more evidence for courts martial.

Still, you'd have to follow all orders put onto anyone in a low position until you're in charge.

Response by SFC Casimir Vital made Jun 16 at 2016 3:14 PM

SFC Casimir Vital — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:14:12 -0400

Take the glasses and hold them for the soldier. If this fails to correct the problem extra duty in the correct duty uniform is always helpful. Failing this article fifteen. Continued failure would be followed by max., max.. potential forfeiture of pay and rank. Continued failure show the soldier the door.

Response by SPC Dennis Vicker made Jun 16 at 2016 3:20 PM

SPC Dennis Vicker — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:20:48 -0400

Make his ass Sweat

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 3:30 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:30:41 -0400

Proceed with punch in throat.

Response by SSG Kirk Benke made Jun 16 at 2016 3:34 PM

SSG Kirk Benke — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:34:36 -0400

You first need to ask and see if the soldier has a profile to wear them and ask to see it. If he does not have one then you need to write the soldier up with a DA 4856 so you will have a record of what he did and what was said.
From,
SSG Kirk Benke
US Army
Retired

Response by MSgt Leon Harper made Jun 16 at 2016 3:42 PM

MSgt Leon Harper — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:42:05 -0400

In the case of a first time offender you can verbally counsel the soldier & verify that he/she is aware of their wrong doing while explaining future repercussions for repeated actions. At that point move on & if the soldier is truly seeking to do the right thing they won't repeat their action.

Response by SSG Lisa Ring made Jun 16 at 2016 4:03 PM

SSG Lisa Ring — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:03:53 -0400

First off, that Soldier would be doing push ups until he/she decided it would be a better idea to take off the sunglasses. Bottom line, you cannot allow a Soldier to openly defy you at all, let alone in front of other Soldiers. On the 4856, it would be disrespecting a Non-commissioned Officer. If it continues to happen, then yes, I'd recommend UCMJ at the company level. Hope this helps.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 4:07 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:07:51 -0400

Yeah, why yell and scream anymore. "Bring a pen to my office". UCMJ! And read Article 91 of the UCMJ, not AR 600-20

Response by CPT Ruben Littles made Jun 16 at 2016 4:14 PM

CPT Ruben Littles — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:14:27 -0400

Do not recommend UCMJ. Initiate UCMJ, blatant insubordination requires nothing less.

Response by Sgt Russell Barker made Jun 16 at 2016 4:27 PM

Sgt Russell Barker — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:27:19 -0400

NJP

Response by MSG Don Burt made Jun 16 at 2016 4:37 PM

MSG Don Burt — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:37:26 -0400

what does your 1st Sgt. say about the matter?
if all else fails, then take him behind the woodshed and get his attention...you’re
an NCO, improvise!

Response by SSgt James Howerton made Jun 16 at 2016 4:49 PM

SSgt James Howerton — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:49:05 -0400

I don't know anything about the way the Army, or even the Marines, to be truthful, handle this kind of thing nowadays. When I was an AD Jarhead, this kind of stuff NEVER happened. At least it never happened in any unit I served in and I never even heard of it happening when I served (1977 - 1990). I think the fact that this question is even posted, if just theoretically, shows what has happened to not only our military but our nation thanks to political correctness as a whole (or would that be A hole, as in all common sense is being swallowed up by it). When I was an E1 through E-3, NCOs were NOBODY you'd mess with and SNCOs were almost God-like. Officers were a whole other level, as in saying, "By your leave, sir..." and awaiting the response, before walking past one. One time I said it when approaching one and just kind of took for granted he'd say, "Granted.", like they always did but this guy must have been testing a theory or had a bet or something and didn't answer. To be honest, it didn't register and I kept going. When he said in a louder than normal voice, "Corporal!", I stopped and turned to see a Brigadier standing there. To be honest, I thought I was going to soil myself. But he quietly talked to me, asking if I understood why the Corps had such traditions and what they represented. He could have read me the riot act but instead took time to explain why he stopped me and what the tradition was for, besides Enlisted Personnel just showing respect to Officers. It may sound corny but as a 20 year old Lance Corporal it impressed me that a General cared enough about the Corps, it's traditions and, most importantly, it's Marines to take the time to do that with/for me. When I entered boot camp, they (the Marine Corps) were super vigilant about D.I.s not being allowed to hit recruits, even if it was just a head-slap on the back of your head. But they were still allowed to swear. When I got off the bus that first night I heard cuss words I didn't know existed. I was scared sh*tless! Those Drill Instructors sounded, looked and acted like they couldn't wait to get you alone so they could kick your skinny little a** all over the Grinder. The one that was yelling at me looked like he could have done it to the whole bus of us "used-to-be-a-second-ago-civilians" who were now in "a world of sh*t, I sh*t you not!!!" recruits. He had muscles in his neck where I just had an Adam's Apple. And his bright crimson face contrasted well with the mustard yellow of many of the recruit's faces to put the Corps' Colors on human display! If I hadn't been so terrified I would have been extremely motivated! Of course, this is all just my honest opinion. My point is I would have NEVER thought of disobeying an order and I can't imagine Marines today would either unless they thought it was an illegal order. If you don't have obedience and discipline in the military then you just have a mob and we all have seen what mobs do on TV in the last couple of years if not controlled by someone like the police. And, sure enough for me, about half-way through Third Phase my Platoon's youngest D.I., a Corporal, blew a gasket and decked me with a punch to the chest. As I lay there gasping for breath I could actually see the panic in his face as he realized what he had done. Of course if I reported it his career probably would have been over. But truth be told, my brother used to hit me MUCH harder and I have this fault I've had since I was a kid and the Corps only worsened it: loyalty. Semper Fi.

Response by SGT Sean Harrell made Jun 16 at 2016 5:09 PM

SGT Sean Harrell — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:09:47 -0400

Absolutely! Write him up for failure to obey lawful order as well as disrespect to an NCO and recommend company grade AR15

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 5:11 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:11:02 -0400

When I was a Butter Bar, I had an E-3 that had an earring in while in uniform, and was not at a required SERE briefing that I had set up. After instructing him to remove his earring, I called the SERE instructor to make sure he hadn't started, and instructed A1C Dirtbag to promptly go to the SERE brief promptly. 30 minutes later, I ran into him at the Exchange... with the earring back in. I had him give me the earring, which I threw into the trash, instructed him to return to the squadron building and go sit in the 1st Shirt's office and wait for me to come back, went shopping, called my Commander, and she and I went to the Shirt's office and had him fill out a 1088 to get him out of the squadron, and hopefully out of the Air Force. Maybe that could work.

Response by SSG John Turner made Jun 16 at 2016 5:11 PM

SSG John Turner — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:11:52 -0400

I WOULD INFORM YOUR PLT LEADER AND LET HIM HANDLE IT, IF THE SOLDIER DISOBEY A DIRECT
ORDER FROM AN OFFICER THE OFFICER CAN MAKE A REPORT AND HAVE HIM BROUGHT BEFORE THE COMPANY COMMANDER FOR DISOBEYING AND OFFICER AND GIVE HIM AN ARTICLE 15, WHICH COULD INCLUDE DETAIL'S AROUND THE COMPANY, LOST OF RANK AND PAY, OR IF THE SOLDIER GET REALLY NASTY, BRIG TIME, AND POSSIBLE DISCHARGE FROM THE MILITARY

Response by SGT Sam Sorrell made Jun 16 at 2016 5:12 PM

SGT Sam Sorrell — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:12:10 -0400

I'm uncertain of the question's true intent. Is it to discipline the soldier for wearing any sunglasses at all, or for wearing sunglasses which are not military issue? For the former, if the soldier has PRK surgery, which is similar to LAZIK, the doctor will prescribe the wearing of sunglasses for months after the surgery. Hence, the soldier may have a temporary profile for the glasses. I don't know whether the same is true of LAZIK, but for soldiers who want jump status and want to correct their vision, last I knew, LAZIK was not an option, but PRK was acceptable to the Army.

Response by SPC Lyle Jackson made Jun 16 at 2016 5:29 PM

SPC Lyle Jackson — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:29:14 -0400

Smoke him smoke him till he pukes then smoke him some more then ask him if he wants to do this everyday until he complies ten to one he won't wear those sunglasses ever again in formation. But then again I was infantry and this is how we dealt with problems and I've heard the army has changed a considerable amount

Response by SFC John Davis made Jun 16 at 2016 5:36 PM

SFC John Davis — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:36:46 -0400

Well, I certain am not going to coddle the little bastard....
Counsel the soldier; if there's still an issue, UCMJ "non-judicial punishment"; or ultimately Courts Martial....
I wish we still had CCF (Combined Correction Facility) otherwise known as "Charlie's Chicken Farm"...

If it's a man, Crush his nuts!!!!

For females I guess you could crush he ovaries....

Response by SFC Marc Waters made Jun 16 at 2016 5:43 PM

SFC Marc Waters — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:43:21 -0400

Get it documented. Counsel, Counsel and Counsel. Then recommend UCMJ for not following a direct order and for wearing unauthorized sunglasses. Talk to the PSG and get guidance. You can cal Legal and get the answers you need if your PSG doesn't have the answer. It's quite simple really Failure to follow a direct order is UCMJ action, if the Soldier doesn't get it by then taking Rank, Money and Time will work. I guarantee it.

Response by SFC Marc Waters made Jun 16 at 2016 5:45 PM

SFC Marc Waters — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:45:35 -0400

Yes. Counsel and then recommend UCMJ action. You can call Legal or JAG for the answers. They are more then willing to show where you can find the answer you need or what to write

Response by SCPO Edward Westerdahl made Jun 16 at 2016 5:52 PM

SCPO Edward Westerdahl — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:52:06 -0400

As a retired SCPO, I just want to smack him or her, and take the sunglasses away. However, that's not allowed any more. You CAN use his peers to change hius attitude by giving 5-10 minutes of close-order drill after the formation has broken up. If THEY take his sunglasses away and give him or her some special attention, you will not have any more problems in the future.

Response by PFC Canaan Bailie made Jun 16 at 2016 6:09 PM

PFC Canaan Bailie — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:09:50 -0400

I know one thing for sure. I didn't have balls enough to tell my NCOs no. They didn't even like being asked why. I would usually ask from a learning and reasoning stand point, but "because I said so" was the answer I always got.

Response by SGT Michael Knoll made Jun 16 at 2016 6:31 PM

SGT Michael Knoll — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:31:52 -0400

That soldier is in need of some extra training. The front leaning rest position was always a good start along with a well written counseling statement followed by UCMJ if the behavior continues.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Jun 16 at 2016 6:39 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:39:59 -0400

I won't lie. The fact you had to ask this question here hurts my inner motivator. You should already have an internal SOP within your unit. The generic approach is verbal correction, written correction, formal counseling, page 11 and ultimately NJP. Should an issue with sunglasses go that far? Absolutely not. Honestly you need to create a mentor relationship with a senior member and figure things out. Because you asked on a public forum I am forced to assume you don't have a functional relationship with your immediate SNCO. You need to create that bond and learn a thing or two form them.

Minor corrections should be just that. Minor. Tell them to correct themselves and move on.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Jun 16 at 2016 6:42 PM

1SG Patrick Sims — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:42:16 -0400

Threatening a soldier with paperwork isn't leading. Your using the authority above you to beat him over the head. The first thing is to get him/her out of formation. Have his Tank commander/crew or Squad leader/squad remove him. later find our what is causing this behavior, not using the threat of an article-15. Find out what's behind it. Remember your the father of the company, not a task master. As a first sergeant you job is to lead and care for the soldiers, not beat them over the heads. I would just like to say the advice I've given is for peace time in garrison. Having been in combat. If it were a combat situation this jackass could get everyone killed. Hit him in the mouth with a rifle butt. Yes there will be NCO's and officers who will say I should be prosecuted for striking a subordinate Before you make that remark think of this. In combat its life or death. Its not a place for a peacetime shoeshine boys . If your a leader lead---If not get out of the way.

Response by SFC Sean Hagerty made Jun 16 at 2016 7:04 PM

SFC Sean Hagerty — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:04:50 -0400

If he was out of uniform, hold uniform inspections for your entire squad ever hour on the hour late into the evening. Make them go somewhere like the orderly room, away from their barracks. Your squad will help this failed attempt at procreation to understand what is a squared away uniform.

Response by SGT Floyd Yates made Jun 16 at 2016 7:06 PM

SGT Floyd Yates — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:06:00 -0400

take them off myself if you dont they all will not obey you

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 7:18 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:18:38 -0400

I would definitely remove the sunglasses from his/her face and let said individual know that they will be returned after the formation and after said individual is counceled by myself. This course of action woul only be if this were a first time offense and there would definitely be an ass chewing during the entire process. This soldier has disobeyed a direct lawful order from a NonCommissioned Officer. If SNM is a repeat offender, then I go straight to the paperwork and fry them. There's no room for insubordination like this in any branch of the service.

Response by SGT David Stead made Jun 16 at 2016 7:19 PM

SGT David Stead — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:19:21 -0400

In accordance with section 1-15 of AR 670-1 The soldier in in direct violation of US Army Regulations. The individual is also guilty of violating 10 U.S. Code § 892 - Art. 92. Failure to obey order or regulation The regulations are listed below. SGT Hamilton your command may have set standards for punishment of this type. At my last command the individual would have received 45 days restriction, 45 days extra duty as a base. At the Commander or 1SG's discretion possible reduction in grade by 1 pay grade and forfeiture of pay times 2 months.

10 U.S. Code § 892 - Art. 92. Failure to obey order or regulation
10. Punitive Articles
Any person subject to this chapter who–
(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Elements.
(1) Violation of or failure to obey a lawful general order or regulation.
(a) That there was in effect a certain lawful general order or regulation;
(b) That the accused had a duty to obey it; and
(c) That the accused violated or failed to obey the order or regulation.

(2) Failure to obey other lawful order.
(a) That a member of the armed forces issued a certain lawful order;
(b) That the accused had knowledge of the order;
(c) That the accused had a duty to obey the order; and
(d) That the accused failed to obey the order.
(3) Dereliction in the performance of duties.
(a) That the accused had certain duties;
(b) That the accused knew or reasonably should have known of the duties; and
(c) That the accused was (willfully) (through neglect or culpable inefficiency) derelict in the performance of those duties.

Explanation.
(1) Violation of or failure to obey a lawful general order or regulation.
(a) General orders or regulations are those orders or regulations generally applicable to an armed force which are properly published by the President or the Secretary of Defense, of Transportation, or of a military department, and those orders or regulations generally applicable to the command of the officer issuing them throughout the command or a particular subdivision thereof which are issued by:
(i) an officer having general court-martial jurisdiction;
(ii) a general or flag officer in command; or
(iii) a commander superior to (i) or (ii).
(b) A general order or regulation issued by a commander with authority under Article 92(1) retains its character as a general order or regulation when another officer takes command, until it expires by its own terms or is rescinded by separate action, even if it is issued by an officer who is a general or flag officer in command and command is assumed by another officer who is not a general or flag officer.
(c) A general order or regulation is lawful unless it is contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States, or lawful superior orders or for some other reason is beyond the authority of the official issuing it. See the discussion of lawfulness in paragraph 14c(2)(a).
(d) Knowledge. Knowledge of a general order or regulation need not be alleged or proved, as knowledge is not an element of this offense and a lack of knowledge does not constitute a defense.
(e) Enforceability. Not all provisions in general orders or regulations can be enforced under Article 92(1). Regulations which only supply general guide-lines or advice for conducting military functions may not be enforceable under Article 92(1).

(2) Violation of or failure to obey other lawful order.
(a) Scope. Article 92(2) includes all other lawful orders which may be issued by a member of the armed forces, violations of which are not chargeable under Article 90, 91, or 92(1). It includes the violation of written regulations which are not general regulations. See also subparagraph (1)(e) above as applicable.
(b) Knowledge. In order to be guilty of this offense, a person must have had actual knowledge of the order or regulation. Knowledge of the order may be proved by circumstantial evidence.

Army Regulation 670-1
1–15. Wear of eyeglasses, sunglasses, and contact lenses
a. Wear of eyeglasses and sunglasses.
(1) Conservative civilian prescription eyeglasses are authorized for wear with all uniforms.
(2) Conservative prescription and nonprescription sunglasses are authorized for wear when in a garrison environment, except when in formation and while indoors. Individuals who are required by medical authority to wear sunglasses for medical reasons other than refractive error may wear them, except when health or safety considerations apply. Soldiers may not wear sunglasses in the field, unless required by the commander for safety reasons in highglare, field environments.
(3) Restrictions on eyeglasses and sunglasses. Eyeglasses or sunglasses that are trendy, or have lenses or frames with initials, designs, or other adornments are not authorized for wear. Soldiers may not wear lenses with extreme or trendy colors, which include but are not limited to, red, yellow, blue, purple, bright green, or orange. Lens colors must be traditional gray, brown, or dark green shades. Personnel will not wear lenses or frames that are so large or so small that they detract from the appearance of the uniform. Personnel will not attach chains, bands, or ribbons to eyeglasses.
Eyeglass restraints are authorized only when required for safety purposes. Personnel will not hang eyeglasses or eyeglass cases on the uniform, and may not let glasses hang from eyeglass restraints down the front of the uniform.
b. Restrictions on contact lenses. Tinted or colored contact lenses are not authorized for wear with the uniform. The only exception is for opaque lenses that are prescribed medically for eye injuries. Additionally, clear lenses that have designs on them that change the contour of the iris are not authorized for wear with the uniform.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 7:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:21:06 -0400

I would first pull him/her aside from everyone and try to found out what is going on with that Soldier. Sometimes there is a problem going on with that Soldier and doesn't know how to cope so they "act out"

Response by SMSgt David A Asbury Sr made Jun 16 at 2016 7:23 PM

SMSgt David A Asbury Sr — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:23:41 -0400

I started to answer but I see that others have given you good advice. If you are young NCO, I suggest that you read the UCMJ. It will first explain what gives you the authority to give a lawful order and what makes it a lawful order. Then learn what regulations your branch of service has for proper wear of the uniform. Learn what is meant by being AWOL. That is all the knowledge you need in order to get by until you can go to a Leadership class. Good luck.

Response by 1stSgt Dan McBride made Jun 16 at 2016 7:24 PM

1stSgt Dan McBride — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:24:49 -0400

I have reviewed many of the responses. .....totally disappointed with advice given!

Why set yourself up for scrutiny of destruction of personal property or improper contact. .......why cause yourself the headache of all the additional paperwork and time because some yo-yo has no respect for authority or well being of the rest of the formation. .....what kind of leadership are you displaying that they will remember at a critical time?

As a first sergeant, I didn't yell, issue petty threats or loose my composure because some yahoo doesn't understand the meaning and responsibilities of wearing the uniform no matter what branch!

So how would I handle this situation? I would have someone get a chair for him/her to sit down while the rest of the formation pays for the penalty of the soldiers insubordination. I would ensure that the soldier was comfortable and understands that when one person makes a poor choice it affects everyone.
Guarantee that the rest of his/her buddies will get the message across to them.
Very good communication tool.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 7:27 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:27:47 -0400

I say I you PT him till he understands. If he is a younger enlisted why mess up his career over this. I understand as a lower enlisted you have to listen to the orders of NCO but why mess up his life?

Response by LT Carl Martin made Jun 16 at 2016 7:33 PM

LT Carl Martin — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:33:30 -0400

This is a good question. I never encountered someone not following my directions. I don't agree with removing the glasses and destroying them. As an enlisted sailor when I saw a form of disrespect, I would talk to the individual to understand why. We policed our Petty Officers and Non-Petty Officers on our own and we all knew that we didn't want the issue to be bumped up to the "Chief". If an individual refused to conform after many informal and formal counseling sessions, the issue would then be referred to the Chief. As Leading Petty Officer, if I had a difficult person, I would speak to my Chief for advice on handling the situation. Most times the situation was handled and things were worked out. Writing someone up for being disrespectful should be the very last step if all else failed. As a Commissioned Officer, I relied on my Senior Enlisted (The Chiefs) to handle most issues. No one was ever referred to me for disciplinary action. The Chiefs handled it and I backed them up.

Response by SGT Trent Woerner made Jun 16 at 2016 7:46 PM

SGT Trent Woerner — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:46:10 -0400

Smoke the dog shit out of them...and then the next time take there money" UCMJ'

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 7:48 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:48:31 -0400

I'd use some physical punishing. Tire the soldier out with some squats, sits ups and lunges. If they continue use paper. Most soldiers know a counseling don't go anywhere and don't do anything. But if they are truly a pointless soldier you'll need a paper trail for ucmj.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 7:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:57:55 -0400

The old army i would crush his soul before going to paper, but now with millineal soldiers all about that paper

Response by GySgt Edward Harper made Jun 16 at 2016 8:02 PM

GySgt Edward Harper — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:02:33 -0400

Remove sunglasses from head then flatten the shit out of them hand back then pushups till he likes oorahh

Response by SSG Mark Jordan made Jun 16 at 2016 8:07 PM

SSG Mark Jordan — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:07:34 -0400

When a sm does n't listen you put on a 4856 failure to follow orders article 92 under UCMJ. You give that troop corrective training. If they still refise you build there packet with 4856's and get there ass out the door. You have to do the papper work. Every Chain OF Command will back you. A bad apple if not dealt with can spread, It affects good order and disclpine. Also all 4856's should be kept in there packet so when time comes for Article 15 it is in order. If you need more help with this let me know.
I am sure you this on paper most units 3 to 4 4856's and leads to and artice 15. Then you take there rime and there money. Most troops will fly right after getting article 15. If sill a proble keep putting on paper. The chain of command wil act swift get there ass afrer already getting prior.

Response by SSG Mark Jordan made Jun 16 at 2016 8:11 PM

SSG Mark Jordan — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:11:28 -0400

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 8:12 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:12:03 -0400

AR 600-20 is a wear and appearance of the uniform it does not list disciplinary actions. The first offense should be warning and you could even give a second warning however on the third offense you really should issue a letter of concern listing the other offenses as well. If he does it again after the letter then refer him to the Commander or First Sergeant for further disciplinary action. You may file an DA form 4856 (Personnel action) in your referral if you desire. But keep a copy of everything for yourself in case you need it later. As a good NCO you need to follow the advice of your senior NCO's and Officers and head their recommendations.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 8:12 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:12:51 -0400

You signed a contract to conform to the rules and regs of the military. They do not conform to you the individual because you want to be different. I'd do paperwork then proceed to make his life a living hell for so long as he's in my unit.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 8:43 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:43:49 -0400

You put his ass in order or you give him a article 15 reduce pay rank and send his ass to fort levanworth. If that won't work how about a good old fashion blanket party.

Response by SSG Mark Jordan made Jun 16 at 2016 8:48 PM

SSG Mark Jordan — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:48:20 -0400

you do write on the 4856 I recommend UCMJ. I will give you an example. PVT Joe Snuffy.
The purpose of this counseling is to document your violation under the UCMJ ARTICLE 91 insubordinate to a Non Commissioned Offiver. On 16 June 2016 at 0550 you were given a lawful order by myself SSG Jordan.To get in formation, you refused and said, no. You by doing so are also in violation of ARTICLE 92 of the UCMJ failure to orders. I SSG Jordan am recommending UCMJ. Most of the time on you can give corrective training on the spot should fix. I still always put in packet even corrective training thing what they were. Since this sm was so disrespectful and did not follow orders if you told them to drop and they did not you now have a strong case for artice 15 right off the bat. That would be disrespect to you and not folloing orders twice.
Then you put what is called the magic statement in there
Sepration Notification: If this substandard conduct continues, action may be initiated to separate you from the Army IAW 635-200. If you are involuntarily separted There is a big thing that goes there.

Response by SGT James Copley made Jun 16 at 2016 8:50 PM

SGT James Copley — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:50:24 -0400

OK so every one on here seem to be really awesome and never been a new NCO in the New army!! And let us be really if you did some of this they would be the first to UCMJ you. This is what I would do

1st I hope that the other NCO's are one your side
2nd if there is nothing in the AR 600-2 then " I know that the 82nd has a hand book that cover everything that the AR douse not" So I would go to that next and I know for a fact that the 82nd had a reg in there for that so I am sure that what ever unit you are in would do the same.

3rd I would confront the PVT ask them were their DIV book was and when they don't have it PT them and or wright them up for that.

Then you not only can get them on being out of uniform, not respecting an NCO and on top of that not having their DIV hand book.

Then I would let them know everything I could do to them and how it can F up their further in the Army and them go from there depending on how they react to all of the.

AND if some one else want to try and play that game again that is when you nail them to the cross after that.

you need to let them know that yes they may have knew you ask an E-4 but that douse not give them the ok for them to walk all over you.

Response by PO1 Tharin Young made Jun 16 at 2016 8:56 PM

PO1 Tharin Young — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:56:23 -0400

Sending a person directly to NJP for something like this won't go very far and will most likely reflect poorly upon you. In such cases I would give official counseling in to the person in question, and doing so in the presence of your immediate supervisor is a good idea, and may actually be required. If this doesn't wake him up to his transgression, repeat as often as is necessary to show a pattern of insubordination, then send him to the show, with all of the recorded counseling in hand for ammunition.

I never actually had to go that far myself. the counseling will usually get their attention, but I've known people who did have such special cases assigned to them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 9:13 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:13:45 -0400

This shouldn't even be an issue. All soldiers know that the only glasses allowed in formation are prescription glasses and that they must fall within AR 670-1. Soldiers are getting too cocky these days.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 9:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:29:51 -0400

Yes, you could do that. Article 92 is a serious violation of the UCMJ. I think crushing sunglasses is a bit extreme. But, I still wouldn't back down. In this day and age, there seems to be a trend rearing its ugly head where junior enlisted feel as if they have options in everything associated with this military life.

Response by SGT Stanley Bass made Jun 16 at 2016 10:37 PM

SGT Stanley Bass — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:37:58 -0400

1. The soldier will take those glasses off there on the spot
2. Afterwards there will be verbal counselling, if you don't simply have the ext NCO take charge of the formation while you and the soldier go take care of that verbal counselling
3. Another incident and it goes on paper
4 A third incident and Extra duty will be incurred

Response by SGT Bob Taylor made Jun 16 at 2016 10:39 PM

SGT Bob Taylor — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:39:14 -0400

This brings back a memory from Army Basic Tng, Ft. Campbell, KY in 1968. I was detailed from class to laundry detail and when I returned after detail my pistol belt and gear was missing. I went to all the offices trying to find it and no one knew where it was. Next morning the Drill Corporal came out on the steps and called me out and told me, "IF I Wanted it to Low Crawl over to him for it" I said I don't want it that bad and turned back to talking with others. The DC went back inside and a few minutes later the Senior DI came out and called me to him. I hustled over to him and he took me in his office and after discussion of the details was told that he had to stand behind his Cadre and he couldn't let me make a fool out of his DC. Anyway, I had to low crawl in the company area to get my field gear. After that the Senior DI and I had a good relationship, not that I got out of any training but just a feeling between us of camaraderie. A bad experience became a good memory.

Response by SSG Bill Sier made Jun 16 at 2016 10:47 PM

SSG Bill Sier — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:47:22 -0400

It just hit me, looking at this again: "directions?" Back in my day they were called "Orders," and there was no refuse option.

Response by SrA Sean Womersley made Jun 16 at 2016 10:47 PM

SrA Sean Womersley — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:47:33 -0400

They are called orders for a reason. When you sign that dotted line to join the military, you are subjected to follow those orders and must do so. It seems like this "sense of entitlement" I see with the current generation of teens/young adults applies to some of our younger military members as well. Although my heart is with SFC Boyd's response, my brain is siding with 1LT De Jesus on this situation. Everything is too PC these days to the point that going in a straight line is no longer the correct way to get to your intended destination.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jun 16 at 2016 10:51 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:51:39 -0400

Dam, you are not Old School are you? 1970's solution the NCO tells every one in his squad to drop and do 10/20 push ups, in formation the Platoon leaders will have the whole platoon drop to support the NCO and to teach the soldiers that his/her poor choice will be corrected by his peers once the NCO leaves.

Response by SPC Jeff Peek made Jun 16 at 2016 10:55 PM

SPC Jeff Peek — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:55:36 -0400

Front lean and rest until he dies

Response by SSG Kimberly Hunter made Jun 16 at 2016 11:22 PM

SSG Kimberly Hunter — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:22:55 -0400

Here is my suggestion, do not be quick to use UCMJ action. First of all you can not just recommend such actions without a lengthy paper trail done correctly. You are the leader, be the leader. Don't be their friend but you need to motivate soldiers with rewards and discipline. Take care of your soldiers (train them, educate them, assist them to take care of their personal issues i.e. Pay, college, promotions) you will earn their trust and respect. A soldier you instill this in will follow you any where and do what you tell them. Don't ask a soldier to do something, you tell them. You have the power for corrective action besides paper and pen. Be creative and this might require some of your personal time to take their personal time. A soldier is only as good a soldier as good leader. Soldiers are a reflection of leadership. Be a better leader.

Response by SPC Kevin Ford made Jun 17 at 2016 12:00 AM

SPC Kevin Ford — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:00:15 -0400

Hmm, thing's must have changed since I was in as a low ranking enlisted. I wouldn't have thought directly disobeying a direct order right to an NCO's face was in my best interest...

Response by SFC Lionel Bascombe made Jun 17 at 2016 12:07 AM

SFC Lionel Bascombe — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:07:54 -0400

I will like to do what SFC Boyd said; that is the way it was done when we were younger Soldiers. However, our Army system today will get us in more trouble that it will the Soldier. The NCO who attempt to crush a Soldier's glasses may end up paying for it or be reprimanded. Soldiers now have all these rules, JAG, and Commissioned officers on their side. It is pitiful how much power we as NCOs' have lost. The most I have seen done with issues like these are continuous 4856s (and you must ensure that the counseling is done by the book, all "t's" crossed and "i's" dotted) until you can build a counseling package large enough with enough substantial evidence to get the Soldier disciplined or kicked out of the Army. I dislike this system because it is hard to retrain the Soldier. I have seen trouble-Soldiers reformed into excellent NCOs with relative disciplining. The way we were disciplined back then. When I say this to some NCOs and Officers today, they respond with “that was back in your time, this is a new generation.” We need to fix this from the NCO Corp starting at the top. This may be a challenge since many young NCOs today are now part of the “now generation.” I am all for flexibility and transformation, however, how much are we willing to give up in order to accommodate indiscipline in this man’s fine Army?

Response by CSM George Gattone made Jun 17 at 2016 12:09 AM

CSM George Gattone — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:09:34 -0400

It's a general question but there's no general, or cookie cutter answer. Every Soldier you lead is different, each responds in their own way. While the grab and smash style may work with Smith, with Jones you may have to put him your arm around him, steer him off to the corner and talk sense to him. And there's everything in between those two extremes. A leader must have the ability to read their subordinates and apply the right motivation for that person. When I was a young sergeant my first sergeant at the time told me "anyone can lead happy Soldiers, but it takes someone special to motivate someone to do something they don't want to do". And he was absolutely right...

Response by SGT James Tridle made Jun 17 at 2016 12:26 AM

SGT James Tridle — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:26:12 -0400

I as a SGT would do a counciling state and keep paper in my desk. Let him or her read the reg on it explain it and see if he or her listen by watching their actions. If no improvement then time mark it on paper.

Response by SSG Grant Hansen made Jun 17 at 2016 12:27 AM

SSG Grant Hansen — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:27:40 -0400

It happened to me one night just before deploying to Iraq.

A new E-5 came back to the barracks drunk as hell and started physically abusing a young E-3. At the time, I was also an E-5, but I had a few years in rank while he had less than a month. I was also the Asst Sqd Ldr, so both in terms of seniority and position, I was his superior.

He refused to leave the PFCs room, despite several orders to do so claiming that he didn't have to do anything I said since he was also an E-5.

I went don the hall and got an E-6 out of bed. The E-6 ordered him out of the room and escorted him back to his room.

The next morning, the CO walkind into his room, litterally dumped him out of his rack, chewed his ass and told him he had 5 minutes to report to his office.

It couldn't have been 30 minutes later that he walked out to formation with SPC rank and fell into a new platoon. Everyone in the company knew what he had done and why he was demoted. It took the wind out of his sails, that's for sure.

Later that day he came and apologized to me, which is a totally classy move on his part. He realized after he sobered up that I was trying to protect him from himself and if he had done what I ordered him to do he might still have been a Sgt.

A couple months after we got back, he got promoted again, but he was a LOT more humble about his rank.

Bottom line, if a soldier won't obey an order while in garrison, you move the offense up the line and let UCMJ do it's thing. It's a MUCH more effective method of solving the problem than punishing everyone for one jackass' BS.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 12:58 AM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:58:32 -0400

The only way he can get away with it is if he just had some sort of optometry appointment where they specifically instructed him to wear sunglasses for X amount of time, in which case he needs some form of chit or "doctors note," but otherwise: article 91 his ass.

Response by TSgt Steven Summerlin made Jun 17 at 2016 1:20 AM

TSgt Steven Summerlin — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:20:38 -0400

Forgo the paperwork on first violation, but never pass up the opportunity to set an example. As he is your charge, uniform correction is your responsibility. Reread that last statement and allow it to sink in. Failure to understand this is likely what prompted this line of questioning. Are we clear on responsibilities and duties now? Good, let's move on then. This soldiers refusal to perform as directed does not relieve you from your duty. Take the action of removing the offending article for him, if he is unwilling or unable to do so himself. Correct the violation. If the situition warrants, either render the item unusable, or announce confiscation. If the soldier become violent, put him at a disadvantage through whatever means necessary and turn him over to the MPs. Example will be made either way. Running to do paperwork without first correcting the situation will reflect poorly on your own understanding of the charge of a NCO.

Response by SPC Korey Kilburn made Jun 17 at 2016 3:53 AM

SPC Korey Kilburn — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 03:53:51 -0400

Drop him on the spot. Set an example. If he still refuses, that's a violation of a direct order, refer to 1SG for possible Ariticle 15, confinement to barracks and forfeiture of pay. I bet he doesn't make the mistake again after that and if so continue Articles 15 until he does get it or you then Chapter for failure to adapt.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 8:16 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:16:20 -0400

You throat punch that ass hat. I never had a Soldier refuse a lawful order from me. I had one kid that had a tongue piercing. I told squad leader to have him remove it. The squad leader told me the kid refused. We I called that little shit to my office and we had a little chat. He removed it promptly out of his mouth. You don't need to be a dick to get your Soilders to the right thing. They just need good leadership and an occasional ass chewing when the screw up

Response by SGT Walter Stewart made Jun 17 at 2016 8:32 AM

SGT Walter Stewart — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:32:09 -0400

Oh come on this is the most stupid question I have seen yet. If a enlisted man or woman refuses a LAWFUL order by a rank higher then them. It follows Under USMJ or Article 15. Even Court Marshal. We are all taught at Basic Training to follow orders and also trained in how to follow orders.

Response by SGT John Romanishan made Jun 17 at 2016 8:32 AM

SGT John Romanishan — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:32:36 -0400

OK ... keep your cool and tell the soldier to remove them. Do this 3 times. After the third time, inform the soldier that you will be putting them on paper for being out of uniform and refusing to make the necessary correction, and for open defiance of a directive set forth by a non-commissioned officer.

Now, this is how you get it to stick:
Research what article(s) in the UCMJ address open defiance, insubordination, disrespect, and refusal to obey a superior, and on your 4856 in the section where you right up the violation, go to the bottom of the block and type in the articles that apply and what they state - word for word.

This way, you get the little peckerhead for a UCMJ violation and the chain of command can't come back and say that it was just a personal disagreement. Get his ass Sarge!

Response by SP6 John Mac Donald made Jun 17 at 2016 8:56 AM

SP6 John Mac Donald — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:56:10 -0400

Failure to follow a lawful order

Response by SGM(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 9:12 AM

SGM(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:12:23 -0400

First, Non-commissioned officers has no dash. It's Noncommissioned Officer.
Second, as long as you give an order that is not illegal, immoral, or unethical, you can request non-judicial punishment for insubordination.
Third, be sure you know the regulation on sunglasses. Is it your opinion on faddish or unauthorized?

Response by LTC Thomas Tennant made Jun 17 at 2016 9:15 AM

LTC Thomas Tennant — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:15:03 -0400

Back in the 1970's ... my NCO's gave me "wall to wall" counseling. I think it work... ;-)

Response by PO1 Rodney Bracey made Jun 17 at 2016 9:24 AM

PO1 Rodney Bracey — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:24:11 -0400

By the book on paper or publicly make an example of the Soldier

Response by Cpl Jim Tubridy made Jun 17 at 2016 9:49 AM

Cpl Jim Tubridy — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:49:04 -0400

I once chose a physical confrontation with an insubordinate PFC. A great deal of correction and disciplinary action had preceded the incident. Two things came of it: 1. The idiot stopped being insubordinate, 2. I was publicly -but mildly- reprimanded by the Gunny and privately congratulated for setting him straight FINALLY. But none of his insubordination took place during formation. Maybe it's a USMC thing, but formation seemed to be the last place a Marine would consider being insubordinate.

Response by MSgt Samuel Thornton made Jun 17 at 2016 10:37 AM

MSgt Samuel Thornton — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:37:44 -0400

It is called insubordination and is punishable under the UCMJ for failure to follow orders.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 10:48 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:48:35 -0400

The specialist needs to be made an example of or this kind of behavior will continue with the other soldiers in the unit. I would first have the E-5 counsel the soldier with the Squad Leader present. Then, on the 4856 refer for an Article 15. During the Article 15, the TL, SL, and PSG is present during the proceedings (of course the soldier is innocent until proven guilty) and the chain of command would request the commander to suspend the sentence. If he misbehaves again, vacate the suspension and Article 15 again, (of course the soldier is innocent until proven guilty) drop the hammer down on him to show the rest of the soldiers in the unit that insubordination will not be tolerated. The word will get out in the "Joe Mafia" that this behavior will not be tolerated and the Chain of Command supports the leadership down to the TL level. If it continues, Bar to Re-enlist and chapter out for Misconduct or Failure to conform,

Response by CSM Robert Hanks made Jun 17 at 2016 10:57 AM

CSM Robert Hanks — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:57:17 -0400

Get your PSG and LT on board and have him ordered to report to staff duty every one to two hours over a weekend in a different uniform, which he gets appearing in the correct uniform. Any wrong and he has to go and correct it before moving onto his break. It will require work on your part, it will correct the defect. Used it and called the school of the soldier and no more uniform issue. Plus side, he was ordered by the C of C to be there.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 11:11 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:11:42 -0400

The order to remove the unauthorized eye wear in formation was a lawful order. This soldier should have received Article 15 punishment for the violation of UCMJ Articles 91 & 92. This said, I'm concerned about the validity of the order to destroy personal property.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 11:24 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:24:56 -0400

It's a violation of 670-1. Art. 92. Failure to obey a lawful order and Art 91, disrespect of a non commissioned officer.

Response by SSgt Robert LeBlanc made Jun 17 at 2016 11:39 AM

SSgt Robert LeBlanc — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:39:55 -0400

I have never felt with a soldier, only Marines: Sorry They are much less of a problem that the Army I'm sure. I would think once (at least) once you reach E-4, you must take a leadership course. Doesn't the Army do the same thing.

Now back in the day the Commanding Officer very rarely felt with any problems with the troops. It was taken care of should I say with in.. Very effective, but today not so much.

Response by Cpl Benjamin Long made Jun 17 at 2016 12:31 PM

Cpl Benjamin Long — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:31:27 -0400

UCMJ- art 92 failure to obey order directive...

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 12:38 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:38:50 -0400

You have to know your Soldiers. Is this particular one always like this? If so, he has a problem and it must be adjusted immediately or it will poison the rest of them. I personally would of taken them off myself, while telling him that he will get them back at his counseling session. Maybe the day turns out better if he refuses to let me take them and assaults me... Just saying. NCOs lead the way!

Response by SSgt Travis Bach made Jun 17 at 2016 12:46 PM

SSgt Travis Bach — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:46:13 -0400

I know in the Marine Corps the authorization of ANY sunglasses was strict!!! I dunno if y'all call them BCG's (issued eyewear). The tinted prescription glasses were the only thing allowed to be worn in a formation of any kind! Back in the day we would have whooped the kids ass in the barracks because we all would have paid for his insubordination. But here is what I did with one of my Marines that would not show up to formation on time, UA, un-shaven, I screwed with his Liberty. He missed a whole Friday on a 72 hour Liberty weekend, Monday morning he was standing tall at 0530 at my room. I had a bucket, tooth brush, and some suds for him to clean the entire barracks cat walk.

Response by SPC Jill Drushal, RN, MA made Jun 17 at 2016 1:20 PM

SPC Jill Drushal, RN, MA — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:20:40 -0400

Playing devil's advocate, I must say you have to be REALLY careful enforcing your example, SGT Hamilton. I've seen this happen (not to me). A soldier gets new PRESCRIPTION glasses and they have photo grey or Transitions lenses. An NCO tells the soldier to remove his "sunglasses." The soldier says they are prescription glasses and shows the prescription. The NCO takes the soldier inside to watch the lens tint lighten up. With the old-type photo grey lenses, this could take 10-15 minutes or more. With the new Transitions technology, the tint usually disappears within five minutes. Additionally, Ray Ban, Oakley and other makers of high-end sunglasses also make prescription frames. My point is that you don't want to have to replace a pair of expensive prescription glasses because you destroyed your soldier's glasses. . . My current glasses cost over $500 because they have progressive lenses. I also have some photophobia as a medication side effect, so I have Transitions lenses. When I was on active duty, I carried my prescription in my wallet. Nobody ever questioned my tinted glasses, even when I got new ones because my prescription changed. . . Just sayin', be careful.

Response by SP5 Joel McDargh made Jun 17 at 2016 1:31 PM

SP5 Joel McDargh — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:31:13 -0400

Understanding what is one's military duties versus his or her personal rights military duties and lawful orders takes precedent. Maintaining discipline is paramount to an effective combat unit. This individual should receive no less than an Article 15 under the UCMJ.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 2:22 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:22:48 -0400

Unfortunately now a days they're too coddled. Not much you can do but write them up nowadays. But a good NCO would make an example out of the turd and scare the disobedience out of the entire platoon.

Response by SSG Nick Tramontano made Jun 17 at 2016 3:17 PM

SSG Nick Tramontano — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:17:01 -0400

First of all , discipline has to start in Basic Training. I feel it is way to easy. Maybe that's why the Marines start from the moment that bus stops. If you are in charge of the formation and you see someone with sunglasses, give a general reminder to anyone wearing non-prescription glasses to put them in their pocket as well as turn off or set cell phones to silent. If the individual does not comply, you will need to counsel them about following lawful orders and the consequences of not. If they are in fact prescription and needed to be worn then they will have to have documentation from the doctor.

Response by MCPO Kurt Stauff made Jun 17 at 2016 3:27 PM

MCPO Kurt Stauff — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:27:44 -0400

I had many years of leadership in the USN, at levels varying from LPO to CMC, and had to learn a variety of approaches. As a Chief, it was easy, as I just sent them outside the room/compartment and had a private chat, on paper, in the CPO Mess afterwards. I removed the disruptor and dealt with them one-on-one, where we would either reach an understanding or he would explain himself at a DRB, then a CO's Mast, if required. Each case would depend on the Sailor's response to the level of discipline offered. The important thing is to remove the disruption from the scene quickly and decisively. This keeps your integrity and authority intact and lets the rest of your troops understand you will brook no disobedience.

Response by LCpl William Perry made Jun 17 at 2016 3:28 PM

LCpl William Perry — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:28:07 -0400

Plain and simple, He has been given an order that in no way threatens any moral valve so he will obey the order or have them removed and then written up. Stop being so PC and instill some core military values into these soldiers that you are their SGT. As a Marine I would have never question an order like that. Semper Fi! And good luck with that slacker SGT.

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Jun 17 at 2016 3:28 PM

SGT Tim Fridley — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:28:43 -0400

You are an NCO look that up you gave PVT Snuffy a Lawful order which he disobeyed the first step would be remedial training after a counceling session if it happens again then UCMJ is in order

Response by SGT Loris Welch made Jun 17 at 2016 3:36 PM

SGT Loris Welch — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:36:18 -0400

Sunglasses or not he refused a directive from an NCO. We get enough disrespect as civilians from these kids. At least in the military you can control it. Article 15 for disobeying a directive from a NCO.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Jun 17 at 2016 3:53 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:53:44 -0400

Sometimes going to JAG for advice is the prudent thing to do.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 4:36 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:36:29 -0400

Well all will say is in 1964 if you did that your ass was on the grinder with full sea bag over head for hours. No time out. The trouble with the service now is the top leadership is kissing ass to be promoted

Response by SSG Timothy Hedman made Jun 17 at 2016 4:36 PM

SSG Timothy Hedman — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:36:41 -0400

AR 670-1 HAS THE BLURB ABOUT UNAUTHORIZED ATTIRE.

Response by Sgt Mike Sanderson made Jun 17 at 2016 4:46 PM

Sgt Mike Sanderson — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:46:40 -0400

He's lucky he wasn't in the Marine Corps, he's be picking his butt up off the deck.

Response by SSG Timothy Hedman made Jun 17 at 2016 4:47 PM

SSG Timothy Hedman — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:47:18 -0400

1st offense, educate the Soldier on proper military protocol...shit he/she should have learned in basic.
One could also interject some remedial training here...depends on NCO/issue at hand.
2nd offense, advise Soldier he/she is being counseled on that issue. in the counseling the blurb needs to state that further insubordination will not be tolerated and if it continues you will pursue ucmj action.
3rd offense, serious write up. Verbage in that counseling needs to state that there were previous issues, verbal reprimands, remedial training, and now you are seeking ucmj action. This way when the command reads the packet, it shows you as the leader giving the Soldier ample time to self correct before you lowered the hammer.

Response by MSgt Peter Vatistas made Jun 17 at 2016 5:59 PM

MSgt Peter Vatistas — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:59:29 -0400

In that instance, I would require a formation 3 mile run, and make certain everyone knew it was being brought on due to the Super Troop who doesn't want to listen to an NCO of higher rank.

No paperwork until I have given it my best shot at winning him/her onto the right track, instead of losing him/her!

Response by SPC Franklin McKown made Jun 17 at 2016 6:41 PM

SPC Franklin McKown — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:41:47 -0400

You CONTACT the largest sp4 you can find ,and share your pain...a GOOD soldier should handle that crap. NO use opening up yourself to any unnecessary exposure what with UCMJ being what it is and WHINERS rampant throughout the system.Junior enlisted personnel SHOULD be able to absorb a few article 15s a bit easier than a good NCO which the army NEEDS!
A good platoon should run smoothly,with the mafia standing by.
Sorry about the wild weekends...trade off...

Response by Cpl Michael Burns made Jun 17 at 2016 7:38 PM

Cpl Michael Burns — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 19:38:49 -0400

To any one who thinks he has to ask this question because he know how to discipline troops. Well it's not easy being an nco and disciplining troops with all the hazing and assault crap flying around. I know a whole platoon who got burned for hazing where as the marine that was supposedly hazed was actually in and consenting to the whole situation.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 7:50 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 19:50:48 -0400

I read through a lot of these comments here. I just wondering the "Why?" behind the Soldier's "No." Did he just go to the eye doctor, have his eyes dialated and these were the only sunglasses he had? Does he have an eye injury and requires sunglasses? How were the sunglasses out of regulation? There is more behind the "No." There is no detail to what is happening here beyond the order and refusal. I came to formation once after getting a pre-PRK appointment and my 1SG told me to take off the sunglasses. I told him I couldn't. He asked the "Why?" and said I had just been the eye doctor and he said Okay and moved on to the formation.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 8:42 PM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 20:42:22 -0400

You break him. You may be only able to do five repetitions but, you can always do multiple sets.

Response by MAJ Ed Borman made Jun 17 at 2016 8:52 PM

MAJ Ed Borman — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 20:52:32 -0400

Simply remove them from his face and say "see me". Then walk off

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 9:21 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 21:21:16 -0400

I'm not Army, but Army Reg 670-1 outlines this disciplinary action together with Article 92. If the Doctor deemed it necessary to wear due to safety reasons, that Soldier should have said something. If not, paperwork followed by retraining is mandatory. You must change the behavior not the person. Let me guess, another millennial thinking their privileged?!

Response by SSgt Luis Salinas made Jun 17 at 2016 9:40 PM

SSgt Luis Salinas — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 21:40:18 -0400

I think one of the most effective ways to handle the situation is to punish the platoon. The platoon will take care of the problem. There are many benefits to this method. One of the most important is that It teaches the platoon to police one another.

Response by SrA Jose Agosto Cruz made Jun 17 at 2016 9:40 PM

SrA Jose Agosto Cruz — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 21:40:50 -0400

Set an example it should be against the uniform code.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 10:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:10:26 -0400

Article 134: conduct prejudicial to good order. Easy as pie to list. Have multiple counseling statements or the action so egregious that it requires immediate attention for a NJP

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 10:20 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:20:24 -0400

sorry for coming off so rude but you are questioning what to do with a soldier that dis-obeys a direct order from an NCO & 2ndly thinks its okay to wear shades in formation. YOU ARE A NCO ARE YOU NOT?! YOU ARE FAILING TO DO YOUR JOB, CORRECT HIM/HER ON THE SPOT AND GROW A BACK BONE, I WOULD SUGGEST YOU DO THIS IN FRONT OF OTHERS B/C YOU'RE COMING OFF AS WEAK, CORRECT HIS PROBLEM & CORRECT YOUR OWN PROBLEM IMMEDIATELY IDC IF ITS THROUGH TOUGH LOVE AND/OR PAPERWORK JUST CORRECT THIS.

Response by PO1 Rexford Dundon made Jun 17 at 2016 10:58 PM

PO1 Rexford Dundon — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:58:21 -0400

When I first joined, a little fan room counceling.. now just write them up, and send them to see the old man via the Chiefs and XO..

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 10:58 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:58:32 -0400

Recommend an Article 15 and extra duty

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 11:10 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:10:40 -0400

Everyone tries to be nice and says to custom tailor a counseling to him, but that's the kind of attitude that gets people killed when we go to war. You make him push until his eyeballs bleed so he learns then rather than in battle by getting his buddies killed. If you allow this from your soldiers and he gets people killed or injured that's on you for not correcting it

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 12:09 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 00:09:27 -0400

What you do is get your fellow nco s to work with u. You write a 4856 with corrective training then another nco does the same . You can have as many nco s write a 4856 as u like. We really can not recommend UCMJ but we can make the Soldier wish he or she had listened.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 12:41 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 00:41:21 -0400

Article 91, and 92, disobeying a lawfull order, dissrespecting a non commissioned officer. That can be a career ender if worded right

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 1:07 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 01:07:14 -0400

There is something called a da form 4856 with a recommendation for UCMJ. Disobeying a lawful order. But IF the soldier had them on because of a profile after eye surgery, then you should've known.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 2:58 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 02:58:18 -0400

SMOKE THE SHIT OUT OF HIM !

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 3:40 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 03:40:01 -0400

I had an issue with a troop a few years back when minot, nd flooded. We were going to fill sad bags to help control the massive flow of water when he asked why we had to do it. I told him because we need to help our neighbors and it's a good cause. He then said "well sir, think about this. I go down and help, but while I am there I "accidently" twist my ankle. Now I'm not able to work and you are down a body for posting. I think it best if I don't go" I replied "ok let's think. You go down and help your neighbors and get hurt. You get some well deserved time off, a pat on the back for your assistance and warm fussiest for doing a good thing. Now let's flip this. You go down and pretend to get hurt in and effort to either get back at me or avoid work and I will slap you with every UCMJ charge they will allow me to charge you with and you will have me breathing down your neck every second after that until I am rid of you." Guess who didn't get hurt filling sand bags...

Response by 1SG Billye Jackson made Jun 18 at 2016 8:44 AM

1SG Billye Jackson — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:44:56 -0400

I must confess I NEVER had that Problem, My Troops First and Foremost would NEVER come to one of My Formation out of Uniform. Also Never had one not do what I told them or any NCO under my Command Told them to do. If they Had it would have been Last Time But that was a WHOLE Different Army. I once had a Young Troop ask me what I would do in Combat Situation Under Fire if he refused and Order from me. Told hem without Batting an Eye I would put Bulletin his Head. From Look on his face I would say he Believed me.

Response by SGT Richard Rodriguez made Jun 18 at 2016 9:42 AM

SGT Richard Rodriguez — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 09:42:51 -0400

I would have snatch them off his damn face. Smashed them and the. Write his ass up for insubordination and refusing a direct order from an NCO and let the XO or CO handle it from there

Response by SGT Nathan Huff made Jun 18 at 2016 11:08 AM

SGT Nathan Huff — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 11:08:30 -0400

write the Soldier up for both incidents disobeying a lawful order and violation of ar 600-20 on uniforms. then have said soldier do corrective actions e.g. a paper on each violation. Object is you gain a paper trail for violations. on the third said mistake suggest a UCMJ and on the 4th suggest a harsher ucmj and on the 5th process paper work to get them out of the military for failure to conform.

Response by SFC Sergio Orozco made Jun 18 at 2016 12:13 PM

SFC Sergio Orozco — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 12:13:00 -0400

On paper is what big Army wants, but to make soldiers understand I would rip those glasses off his face and crush them! And then be ready to be punished for doing my job.

Response by SFC Laurie Schultz made Jun 18 at 2016 2:10 PM

SFC Laurie Schultz — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:10:53 -0400

Don't we drop anymore? Physical punishment used to work great. Make the whole platoon run with him running around it. Get the others to fix it. What happened to the good old days

Response by SPC Stephen Clark made Jun 18 at 2016 2:33 PM

SPC Stephen Clark — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:33:24 -0400

Find out why the soldier is refusing to follow orders. Determine the problem. If the problem is him being a retard then take step 1. Warn him with counseling statement, then UCMJ. I don't know the style of military anymore, but the wall to wall session or smoke pit sounds more feasible and less time consuming. The muddier the better.

Response by Sgt Chris Madden made Jun 18 at 2016 2:47 PM

Sgt Chris Madden — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:47:35 -0400

Since everything is kinder and gentler, give him a page 11 for being out of uniform and refusing a lawful order by a senior enlisted. Then gove him weekend duty and denied promotion for insuborination and disrespect to a senior enlisted. It seems like the military likes the paper games more now and as a reminder, promotion from E-1 through to E-3 is not a guarantee as many seem to think

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jun 18 at 2016 2:52 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:52:48 -0400

I would put them at the position of attention explaining the rule while they are unable to speak, then placing them at ease telling them one more time to remove them. If they fail to do so i would take them to the Platoon Sergeant or 1SG then putting it in writing. There are other ways, this is just one.

Response by Sgt Tito Velasquez made Jun 18 at 2016 3:25 PM

Sgt Tito Velasquez — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 15:25:19 -0400

I would ask him/her kindly to remove the glasses and explain they are unauthorized no results I would crush them

Response by PO3 Carlos Soliz made Jun 18 at 2016 3:31 PM

PO3 Carlos Soliz — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 15:31:28 -0400

Give him/ her shit details that everyone hates. Yup that shitter needs cleaning, then go police up all trash. Repeat for the rest of the day and remainder of the week. If on Friday it will continue into next. As for a squid they would learn how to bilge dive for trash.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 5:21 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:21:03 -0400

....are you kidding

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 5:22 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:22:05 -0400

Depends, you want to old school it and chew em in the corner, whence their attitude gets the best of them and you can watch them escalate the situation?

Response by CSM Kim Thomas Michalowski, CSM (R) made Jun 18 at 2016 5:38 PM

CSM Kim Thomas Michalowski, CSM (R) — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:38:12 -0400

I like the idea of smacking them off his face and crushing them with my foot. Better yet, command Pugil Pit now and smack them off his face with a good butt stroke to the head.
I retired 10 yrs ago and am saddened as I read where our Army has been led and diminished by current powers in Washington.

Response by SPC Michael Bailey made Jun 18 at 2016 5:47 PM

SPC Michael Bailey — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:47:29 -0400

Joes need to respect your authority. You can absolutely destroy that by Fucking up their career over a pair of sunglasses. Putting things on paper and they won't learn the right lesson.

Joes will gripe how stupid the regs are. Show them WHY the regs are the way they are. Ballistics, or concealment etc. Teaching them that this will save their lives if they're ever operationally deployed will make the lesson sink in.

You can also turn the tables. Make them an NCO for a day then act like an entitled shit making their mission difficult to impossible.

All these methods worked on me they might work on your Joe

Response by SPC Chris Hill made Jun 18 at 2016 8:11 PM

SPC Chris Hill — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:11:58 -0400

Ar 670-1

Response by SPC Rick LaBonte made Jun 18 at 2016 9:30 PM

SPC Rick LaBonte — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 21:30:25 -0400

Had to be a pfc or lower, by the time you reach spec4, you realize that you are a stone's throw from that SGT position and you know better than to have them on during formation. If I had a pair of Raybans by the time I reached E-4, I would have them secured in a BDU pocket before a formation, so sunglasses boy deserves losing them or a written reprimand!

Response by SGT Jason Murphy made Jun 18 at 2016 9:57 PM

SGT Jason Murphy — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 21:57:06 -0400

Simple, cover your ass, write the soldier a counseling for failure to follow a direct order and make it clear it does not conform to uniformity and AR 670-1. Additionally, state violations of this nature could result in UCMJ. That should get their attention

Response by Gary Highley made Jun 18 at 2016 11:06 PM

Gary Highley — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 23:06:36 -0400

I am not military but I can tell you that a soldier is supposed to listen and obey the people in authority over him/her, that is what they signed up for. so take the glasses and destroy them, any further questions about the glasses should end up in a warranted ass whooping to show this soldier without a doubt who is in charge. the only way those glasses should remain on that soldiers face is if ordered by a doctor because of some sort of medical procedure and the commanding officer should had been made aware before an altercation was started. just my opinion.

Response by SSG Robert White made Jun 19 at 2016 2:33 AM

SSG Robert White — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 02:33:50 -0400

The NCO in question must enforce AR 670-1. No violence should be taken against the solder.

Per AR 607-1 Proponent and exception authority. The proponent of this pamphlet is the Deputy Chief of Staff, G–1. The proponent has the authority to approve exceptions or waivers to this pamphlet that are consistent with controlling law and regulations. The proponent may delegate this approval authority, in writing, to a division chief within the proponent agency or its direct reporting unit or field operating agency in the grade of colonel or the civilian equivalent. Activities may request a waiver to this pamphlet by providing justification that includes a full analysis of the expected benefits and must include formal review by the activity's senior legal officer. legal officer. All waiver requests will be endorsed by the commander or senior leader of the requesting activity and forwarded through their higher headquarters to the policy proponent. Refer to AR-25-30 for specific guidance.

NCO's and Officers need to follow the regs. They can't impose punishment, threats of violence or violence itself. If they do so, they are no better than the individual in question.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 2:52 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 02:52:04 -0400

Open ha do thrust to Soldiers nose should knock them off and I doubt they forget the lesson that easy taught. Jk.

Yes counsel the Soldier. I wouldn't recommend article 15 just yet. Do some corrective training first. This Soldier is most likely not going to comply. Now you have patterns of misconduct which will help your command chapter the Soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 3:52 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 03:52:59 -0400

If a Soldier refuses, should be written in paper and go to the higher command.

That is insubordination. The higher chain of command of that NCO who had that situation with that soldier should make a meeting also with he/she, address the insubordination committed and show him/she the regulation related about the uniforms and about insubordination could end in UCMJ.

But....I think that a situation like that means that the 1SG has to place the all unit or company to have a briefing about the regulation about the uniforms in powerpoints. Make sure everybody had clarify all doubts. After that, any situation further occurs, should be address in written, if the soldier refuses to obey, I believe should get an article 15 for insubordination.

Response by SP5 Ed McCoy made Jun 19 at 2016 11:11 AM

SP5 Ed McCoy — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 11:11:49 -0400

Take em off for him along with half his face n smash them for him. Then make him drop n do 50.

Response by SGT Bruce Miller made Jun 19 at 2016 11:44 AM

SGT Bruce Miller — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 11:44:40 -0400

put it on paper/extra duty

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Jun 19 at 2016 12:26 PM

SGT Robert Wager — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:26:48 -0400

Apparently this soldier needs some corrective training in following orders. I would suggest grass drills to help the soldier understand that my orders are to be followed quickly and without question. He needs to hear my voice, understand the order, and follow it smartly. You could even incorporate "remove sunglasses" into the corrective training. "Up", "Down", "Roll Left", "Remove Sunglasses", "Roll Right", "Go!" The training thus gives the soldier the opportunity to understand his mistake and correct the error.

Response by SPC Bryant Turnage made Jun 19 at 2016 12:28 PM

SPC Bryant Turnage — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:28:22 -0400

This doesn't require paperwork and feel good stuff. Take them off or walk around with an MRE box above your head yelling "I'm so bright I need shades"

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 12:41 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:41:32 -0400

You document the whole incident and then write up a negative counseling statement on that soldier for insubordination and you cite the AR and UCMJ code that he violated. If it's bad enough you can even push for a company grade Article 15.

Response by MSgt John Butcher made Jun 19 at 2016 4:08 PM

MSgt John Butcher — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 16:08:21 -0400

I assume that you're Army but I'd suggest that your giving a lawful order and therefore is punishable under the UCMJ. First off you should have a Letter of Counseling and start a UIF folder, next step would be an Article 15, etc.

Response by PO2 Tim Druck made Jun 19 at 2016 5:51 PM

PO2 Tim Druck — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:51:06 -0400

Man, my Chief would have responded with a deafening "GET THOSE FUCKING SUNGLASSES OFF YOUR FUCKING FACE BEFORE I SHOVE THEM CLEAN UP YOUR MOTHERFUCKING ASS" and at that point I'm not sure anyone would have had the balls to continue wearing them. But if they did, I'm pretty sure it would have resulted in a write-up for Captain's Mast for insubordination.

Response by CPT Michael Stephen made Jun 19 at 2016 6:07 PM

CPT Michael Stephen — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:07:07 -0400

I would like to respond to SFC post below but wish to post directly here. I totally respect the approach and philosophy of SFC with crushing the Soldier's glasses as a response to disobeying a lawful order in front of other Soldiers. This may work if done with finesse and you have a repoire with the other subordinates and the NCO Support Channel and Chain of Command has your back. If you did that though you may not be able to formally counsel him on recommending UCMJ or even corrective training. You would just be adding insult to injury in the eyes of your Soldier. The other part is that now the Soldier can go to the Army lawyer or Legal Assistance Center and put in a claim against you for the cost of replacing the Ray-Bans. That Soldier has a right as a Soldier to do that. Now the pros may outweigh the cons for the SGT if he or she is willing to fork out the $200 but still retain discipline within the ranks. I can say more on this but I will leave it at that for now.

Response by LtCol Mac McCarty made Jun 19 at 2016 6:32 PM

LtCol Mac McCarty — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:32:09 -0400

This is a serious problem. had he refused in a private counseling session, you could have put him in front of your Platoon Sergeant, and, if necessary, the First Sergeant, to square him away and keep his record clean. Now that he has refused a lawful order in front of the unit--in formation, no less--he needs to go to NJP--and if I was his Company Commander, I would send him to the Battalion Cpommander, recommending trial by court-martial. Otherwise, the rest of the unit sees that there is no discipline in the unit and everything goes to hell.

Response by SSG Delanda Hunt made Jun 19 at 2016 6:56 PM

SSG Delanda Hunt — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:56:02 -0400

Make that soldier life a living hell and hopefully he will go AWOL.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jun 19 at 2016 7:00 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 19:00:03 -0400

You given him the golden statement: : PVT Snuffy you failed to be in the correct uniform for X formation. The prescribed uniform is blah, blah and blah. Army regulation 670-1 clearly states that sunglasses are not to be worn in formation. When informed to remove them you chose to disregard the order given you. That is a violation Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (always spell this out, it is proper English, and has a more dramatic effect), actions of this nature can, and will result in actions under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Furthermore this can result in discharge under less than honorable conditions, forfeiture of all veterans benefits not limited to health and education, and follow you for life. As this is your first offense I am recommending the following corrective actions: A. for the next week you will after duty hours report to me at X hour, in the following uniform, with the following uniforms available. PT summer, PT winter, Class B, Class A, Field Uniform (what ever your units field uniform is to include full battle rattle and Armor vest). Every 30 minutes you will change into a those uniforms and you will meet (at a location that makes it inconvenient but not impossible to do, flag pole, mess hall, or some other place), If for any reason you are not in the correct uniform, you will reappear at the end of the normal changes in the correct uniform. Or you may elect to see the commander for actions under UCMJ.

Be legal, but be inventive. Don't be afraid to dry different stuff, just don't go overboard.

If that doesn't work, well there is a bag of camouflage poles in the back of an LMTV, or a good session of conex counseling, but seriously, this person is challenging your authority, don't lose your cool, because that is what they want you to do. Instead show the individual you have far more inventive ways of getting them to go along with the plan. Was he late to formation revoke pass privileges for two weeks, if they live off post move them in the barracks. There are ways to get people to tow the line.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 9:13 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 21:13:21 -0400

if the person giving the order was you then do you have a pattern of others disobeying your orders? if so then you could be the problem or at least part of it

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 10:09 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 22:09:19 -0400

I'm curious to know how the situation was handled.

Response by Sgt William Coffee made Jun 19 at 2016 10:35 PM

Sgt William Coffee — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 22:35:30 -0400

You punish the whole group until someone internally says"Hey dickhead take of the glasses" It's a Marine thing.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 11:32 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:32:59 -0400

Create a paper trail where you counsel the service member & after 3 or more THEN you pull UCMJ !

Response by SGT Michael Padilla made Jun 20 at 2016 12:12 AM

SGT Michael Padilla — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 00:12:54 -0400

As a squad leader I have actually had a soldier who came to formation with sunglasses on. Being that I also wear lightly shaded sunglasses, first thing I ask is for the soldier to produce his prescription from a military doctor saying that he has light sensitivity and is allowed to wear them. If no prescription is in his possession, I then start with on the spot corrections and go forward from there.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 12:38 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 00:38:24 -0400

Should have checked your troops prior to formation and educated your subordinate leaders first.

Response by MSG Christopher Mackey made Jun 20 at 2016 8:08 AM

MSG Christopher Mackey — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:08:03 -0400

There has been a huge push for todays Soldiers to wear safety ballistic glasses and even issues them to them. They have become mandatory to have them in a training environment in Basic and AIT. The issue is to get to the root of the reason the Soldier refused to take them off. Harsh punishment, UCMJ and ridicule do not solve the problem. Counseling the Soldier and listening helps to find out why and then you have to instill and reinforce why not. 13 weeks of Drill Sergeants enforcing a safety eyewear policy can really effect how the Soldiers thinks about removing his eyewear. On the other hand if the Soldier is just straight up belligerent about it and just wants to defy authority then it is time to use the power of the pen. Forcibly removing or damaging the Soldiers eyewear could have a negative effect like having the MP's pay you a visit and possibly setting yourself up for assault or criminal charges for destroying the eyewear. Remember you do this in front of your platoon or squad then this provides witnesses and also creates animosity. Do not do the wrong thing while trying to do the right thing.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 8:18 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:18:09 -0400

Troop company or platoon half right face front leaning rest position move

Response by TSgt Johnnie Keller made Jun 20 at 2016 10:01 AM

TSgt Johnnie Keller — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:01:43 -0400

Back in the day, the NCO's would be smoking this clown to remind him of who is in charge.

Response by Sgt John Wilson made Jun 20 at 2016 10:15 AM

Sgt John Wilson — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:15:36 -0400

Try being creative with some wit. Explain to him that if he doesn't get with it life is going to suck for him. Hard to buy expensive shit as an E-1

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 10:46 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:46:22 -0400

I once made the mistake of telling my TL "No!"
(Mind you this was in '77.)
The 'wall to wall' counseling I received from him and our SdLd made a lasting impression on me. Never again did I disrespect an NCO! Years later on he was my 1SG and we joked about.
Unfortunately, today, that is not an option!

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 12:45 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:45:36 -0400

Bottom Line Up Front,,,,
While sunglasses are authorized for wear in formation, it is up the Commander to allow it for uniformity purposes and other factors he/she dictates.
If the CDR permits them for wear? They must be comply to AR 670-1!!
As for the failure to follow directions??
YES!! Document it!!
During the counseling though., find out why there is a problem following orders??
Different leadership styles will say what type of counseling session is required,, but,, that style of session is fluid, which is to say, be ready to go from a direct counseling, to indirect based on issues the Soldier may be having??
Start it right though!!
Documentation!!
Hope this helps??

Response by SPC Patrick Chandler made Jun 20 at 2016 1:25 PM

SPC Patrick Chandler — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:25:00 -0400

After issuing the lawful order to remove said glasses of the sun, they should be confiscated and returned after the end of the days business, preferably they will be returned to said SM in the 1SG's office.

A lawful order was being given, and therefore the item was not taken wrongfully. A good leader starts small in punishment, and only resorts to kicking people out after a series of insubordination or misconduct. But then...a good leader also leads by example.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 1:41 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:41:37 -0400

I heard you can't smoke soldiers anymore. Is this true? (I'm prior service Army) Cause if you can, that always seems to work. Or take his/her time, have them write you a letter. More importantly don't lose your cool in front of the whole group. Pull him/her aside after the formation and have a come to Jesus meeting. If they refuse, then it's game on with paperwork. That's what I do to my sailors but most of them respect me because they realize I actually care about them. There's always that one though it seems.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Jun 20 at 2016 2:08 PM

SFC Joseph Weber — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:08:49 -0400

Smack then in the head with my magic chapter stick.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 3:02 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:02:19 -0400

You find this in the UCMJ. Disrespect to a Non Commisioned Office.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 4:31 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:31:58 -0400

I'm reminded of Full Metal Jacket where Pyle gets caught with the jelly doughnut. This is the same case as Pyle is only thinking of himself, as the soldier is now. Punish the rest of the platoon or squad. Make the soldier the hate his/her peers have for them for disobeying a direct order and being out of regs. "Oh you want to be an individual huh? Alright, I got you. Everyone except private snuffy here, half right face." Continue this pattern until they as a unit fix it. If fixing it in house does not work, move to UCMJ and give private snuffy all the outside details so he/she has ample opportunity wear his/her AR breaking sun glasses. When asked as to why he/she is wearing them and not being corrected, simply state he/she disobeyed a direct order and that it is already started up the pole for article 15 proceedings.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 5:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:10:30 -0400

I'm responding as what I would expect. The person that didn't want to conform to uniformity would be out of my formation, doing every shit detail that I could think of for a while. From 16-18 hour work days to picking up only certain types of trash in a less then desirable area.
The true problem is the lack of respect... its going one way or the other and you're very vague in the situation that it happened. You should find out what's going on with the Soldier and address the issues in an open format, if that doesn't work then "yes" you have to keep it all written down. You should ask your PSG/1SG to assist in the situation. If they don't help then your probably goes further then just the formation.
You should tell the Soldier if they dont have a medical condition and that's not part of the uniform for formation to remove it, if they don't then bring it up to the squad or team and let them harsh them a little bit about it. We're all in the same game here, but it sounds though you have someone wanting attention or that has some major issues.

Response by SP5 Joe Phelps made Jun 20 at 2016 5:15 PM

SP5 Joe Phelps — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:15:34 -0400

Remind him with extreme authority of his oat tho obey all orders of those appointed above him.

Response by Sgt George Sabin made Jun 20 at 2016 5:28 PM

Sgt George Sabin — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:28:27 -0400

There are a number of different ways to handle the situation. Try the less evasive method of extra duty if needed you can involve higher ups and possibly write the person up.

Response by Capt Hansel Bumgarner made Jun 20 at 2016 5:29 PM

Capt Hansel Bumgarner — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:29:17 -0400

It's "Refusal to obey a lawful order".

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 5:58 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:58:10 -0400

Apply the appropriate violation of the UCMJ along with the fitting punishment. Seems fairly simple to me.

Response by 2LT Ronald Reimer made Jun 20 at 2016 5:58 PM

2LT Ronald Reimer — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:58:43 -0400

If you are in theater, have your XO or another officer give him the order, while there is a POW conveniently nearby. Then Article 90 applies. He can be court-martialed and executed. Guaranteed to prevent that puke from EVER disobeying an order again!

890. Art. 90. Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
Any person subject to this chapter who—
(1) strikes his superior commissioned officer or draws or lifts up any weapon or offers any violence against him while he is in the execution of his office; or
(2) willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer;
shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

Response by Sgt Jeremy Maddox made Jun 20 at 2016 6:30 PM

Sgt Jeremy Maddox — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 18:30:10 -0400

I've been out for quite some time, but even then there was a divide between the new mentality of administrative leadership where everything was write ups and documentation and old school leadership where you used such things as a "learning opportunity" that might include a physical correction or an out right ass whoopin if needed.

Response by SSG Troy Martin made Jun 20 at 2016 7:10 PM

SSG Troy Martin — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:10:59 -0400

Back in the old days it would be slapped off his face and UCMJ

Response by SPC Eduardo Rodriguez made Jun 20 at 2016 7:45 PM

SPC Eduardo Rodriguez — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:45:04 -0400

Because I rock.

Response by SFC Travis Wood made Jun 20 at 2016 10:22 PM

SFC Travis Wood — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 22:22:13 -0400

I generally would cite Art 92, Failure to obey a lawful order or regulation. You can also use Art 134 under conduct bringing discredit to the service..not sure the exact clause. Then, you chapter his sorry butt out.

Response by PVT Ryan P. Quirk made Jun 20 at 2016 10:25 PM

PVT Ryan P. Quirk — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 22:25:33 -0400

LOL... Well when I was in.. You had some "C.D.K.D" (Closed Door Knuckle Drill) You beat his ass. Then he thought twice about failing to follow an order... Better to correct the issue where there is no mistake who is in charge. Pain and Fear work wonders. Paper trails and slapping their wrist just causes you more problems... Just a thought.

Response by SPC Juan Alvaradoplatero made Jun 21 at 2016 3:13 AM

SPC Juan Alvaradoplatero — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 03:13:28 -0400

Its called insubordination

Response by Cpl Travis Guill made Jun 21 at 2016 4:08 AM

Cpl Travis Guill — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 04:08:31 -0400

First time I lipped off as a junior marine, I got the shit kicked out of me by 3 nco's. That's how you get a fuckhead to understand he's not the bad ass he thought he was. All this paperwork bullshit doesn't work. That's why there's so many shit heads running around now.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Jun 21 at 2016 10:04 AM

SSG Richard Reilly — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:04:28 -0400

Correct, counsel, document, fire.

Pretty simple. If a Soldier cannot be corrected or counseled then he gets fired. Under the topics of counseling and correction is punishment and also reduction. Reduction boards should be a monthly thing in your unit. This puts all Soldiers on notice that if they cannot do the work level of their title or grade then they will be made a lower one. OR if you need to have the command punish then again puts them on notice. Additionally if you are counseling that will later support a separation. The military doesn't need that dead weight. Cold answer but you join the military as a adult the world is a cold place.

Response by SSgt Daniel Lamb made Jun 21 at 2016 10:54 AM

SSgt Daniel Lamb — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:54:38 -0400

Young man, make sure you lead by example in obeying the orders of your superiors. This is one of the major problems with NCOs and SNCOs both when I was in the Corps. Lead from the front. Use the following leadership traits to become a better leader:

Judgement - Judge the importance of the infraction. Is it worth getting all worked up about?
Justice - Ensure that you treat all of your soldiers with the same standards
Dependability - Can your Soldiers depend upon you , can your superiors depend upon you?
Initiative - Are you an inovator?
Decisiveness - Make a decision and quit second guessing yourself.
Tact - Be tactful in dealing with all Soldiers, both superiors and your Soldiers.
Integrity - Be honest and true!
Enthusiasm - Help your Soldiers be excited about being the best they can be.
Bearing - Ensure that you carry yourself with pride and demand the same from your Soldiers.
Courage - Do not fear the repercussions of your decision making.
Knowledge - Know your Soldiers and their strengths and weaknesses. Know the regs.
Loyalty - The most important of all. Your Soldiers deserve your Loyalty and will return it sevenfold.
Endurance - Patience

To be a better leader, read books about successful leaders and their methods to inspire their men. Seek out those within your outfit that are successful leaders and emulate them.

When you are required to "write up a Soldier" you have failed in leadership and are passing off your problems to someone else. Always keep this in mind.

Response by 1SG Willie Hemphill Sr made Jun 21 at 2016 1:35 PM

1SG Willie Hemphill Sr — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:35:53 -0400

Here is what the Army Regulation says:
IAW AR 670-1 PG 15 3–10. Eyeglasses, sunglasses, and contact lenses
Note: This paragraph is punitive with regard to Soldiers. Violation by Soldiers may result in adverse administrative action and/or charges under the provisions of the UCMJ.
a. Eyeglasses and sunglasses.
(1) Conservative civilian prescription eyeglasses are authorized for wear with all uniforms.
(2) Conservative prescription and nonprescription sunglasses are authorized for wear when in a garrison environment, except while indoors. Individuals who are required by medical authority to wear sunglasses for medical reasons, other than refractive error, may wear them, except when health or safety considerations apply. Commanders may authorize sunglasses in formations or field environments, as appropriate.
(3) Eyeglasses or sunglasses that are trendy or have lenses or frames with conspicuous initials, designs, or other adornments are not authorized for wear. Soldiers may not wear lenses with extreme or trendy colors, which include, but are not limited to, red, yellow, blue, purple, bright green, or orange. Lens colors must be traditional gray, brown, or dark green shades. Personnel will not wear lenses or frames that are so large or so small that they detract from the appearance of the uniform. Personnel will not attach chains or ribbons to eyeglasses. Eyeglass restraints (to include bands) are authorized when required for safety purposes. Personnel will not hang eyeglasses or eyeglass cases on the uniform and may not let glasses hang from eyeglass restraints down the front of the uniform. Glasses may not be worn on top of the head at any time.
(4) Soldiers are authorized to wear ballistic spectacle eye protection issued by the Army, including lens colors or logos that do not comply with paragraph 3–10a(3), above, in garrison or field environments unless otherwise directed by their chain of command. See the Army Combat Readiness Center for a list of currently approved protective eyewear.
b. Restrictions on contact lenses. Tinted or colored contact lenses are not authorized for wear with the uniform. The only exception is for opaque lenses that are prescribed medically for eye injuries. Clear lenses that have designs on them that change the contour of the iris are not authorized for wear with the uniform. Contact lenses may be restricted by the commander for safety or mission requirements.

Find out what the unit policy is about wearing sunglasses in formation, some units made it a requirement while downrange. Next if there isn't a policy talk to your PLT SGT and 1SG in that order and suggest that one needs to be drafted up and signed by the commander in order to maintain good order and discipline in the unit. If the Soldier has a medical reason then he needs to carry his profile to limit the amount of questions.
I hope this helps.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Jun 21 at 2016 1:39 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:39:27 -0400

I am not certain how this could even happen. Unless the individual has some kind of condition that REQUIRES protective eyewear, he has absolutely no leg to stand on. If the NCO in charge issues an order to remove the eyewear and the order is refused, he should dismiss the individual from the formation.
Then, after explaining the situation to the remainder of the formation, take the idiot directly to the side to have him explain why he is above the rules.
I can stomach all the talk about preserving individual rights, however, following orders is part of the job. If anyone serving in the armed forces places his "rights" to free speech or expression above the need for good order and discipline, that individual needs to go home. He will eventually get someone hurt.
There is absolutely no room for this type of insubordination. I'm not going to reminisce about the good old days when the offender would have been pounded into the ground by his platoon mates. Those days are over. But if you build the type of team that will follow your commands without question because they trust and respect you, you will never find yourself in this situation.
I would think that someone being so boldly defiant is the result of poor leadership at some level.
Root cause = he has no fear of repercussion. From the team, you or your boss. He should learn differently by experiencing the consequences of violating regulations. Do it right. Use your chain of command. That goes both directions.

Response by PO1 David McFarland made Jun 21 at 2016 2:49 PM

PO1 David McFarland — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:49:03 -0400

I'd imagine the culture of the unit would also be a deciding factor. I can see some groups needing to place a greater importance on immediately following orders, regardless of external factors, whereas others very much need to take those external factors into account and root them out before getting too harsh.
Creating a paper-trail early on in a soldier's career can be the wrong way to go about it.
Most important in any situation like this is to ask "Why?" rather than to just go off the chain and start yelling. A lot of times I see leadership assume the worst, only to have the situation be at least marginally understandable - the guy might still be jacked up, but it might be more a misunderstanding on his part and an opportunity for a "educational" experience.
For small issues - like refusing to remove sunglasses - you don't want to have something plague them later on. Once their fault is clear, take them aside and correct them as heavy-handedly as necessary. Before creating a paper-trail, determine if there are outside issues resulting in an abnormal behavior (home issues, financial, et cetera). Once you determine that they actually have a lasting behavioral problem, then start that paper-trail so that if it continues, you've started the process to prove they either need to have a more formal "correction" or expulsion.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2016 2:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:57:48 -0400

Find out the reasons why SM would not remove them. Regardless, unless it's medical based the SM was wrong. Paper work is a good thing to document but if this was out of character for this SM then find out, as a person, not an NCO, what's going on. Explain why, regulation out for reference. Wording on the 4856 is up to you within reason.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2016 4:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:22:49 -0400

Counseling statement

Response by CPT Ron Escobedo made Jun 21 at 2016 5:02 PM

CPT Ron Escobedo — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 17:02:25 -0400

My Dad would have pulled them off and stomped them. I shudder what he would do after the soldier made a move or mouthed off again.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2016 6:57 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:57:16 -0400

I'm not sure exactly why we are debating breaking their private property vs smoking the soldier and why we have young LT's summarily endorsing their negative behavior by saying it's their right to protect their private property. 26 years ago my GYSGT would have made me wish he had smashed my glasses now we have to ask the soldier if it's ok to correct them on their misgivings as we might hurt their feelings you. I didn't force you to sign the papers that said you will obey my lawful orders but I'm going to ensure you do.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2016 10:52 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 22:52:23 -0400

Charge him!

Response by PVT Vance Hanna made Jun 21 at 2016 11:57 PM

PVT Vance Hanna — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 23:57:24 -0400

Take the Solider Aside privately, and explain to them that you would rather not have to Recommend for UCMJ over something as silly as unauthorized sunglasses and that they should consider this conversation as their warning, If however they persist in behavior that you have informed them about, you WILL recommend for UCMJ. Then say Look, do you really want to lose half a months pay and be placed on restriction over some sunglasses, then tell them the choice is theirs.

If this corrects the behavior, let it go at that, if it does not, Article 15 their ass every time they disobey from that point forward. Some people are slow learners.

Response by 1SG Ken Gillespie made Jun 22 at 2016 3:45 AM

1SG Ken Gillespie — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 03:45:27 -0400

Put it in a counseling statement, Give them extra training, if the trend continues document it and send paperwork up the chain for 1SG/Commander to take action.

Response by SPC Kenneth Koerperich made Jun 22 at 2016 4:56 AM

SPC Kenneth Koerperich — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 04:56:49 -0400

Refuse an NCO back in the day, you got dropped right there. Our NCO's were Vietnam Vets & not of above "laying of hands". Only after our 2nd year did the PCness kick in & paper start being used. Way to many "butthurts" complaining up the chain about "perceived" abuses.

Response by SGT Ben Bearden made Jun 22 at 2016 10:18 AM

SGT Ben Bearden — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:18:06 -0400

DA 670-, 3–10. Eyeglasses, sunglasses, and contact lenses. if this individual has refused refer to the aforementioned paragraph of 670-1. i would recommend corrective training prior to 4856, you don't want to appear impotent in front of your subordinates, this would allow you to have a teachable moment with this soldier and your formation. earn their respect, it doesn't automatically come with the stripes.

Response by SSG Jon Hibbs made Jun 22 at 2016 10:18 AM

SSG Jon Hibbs — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:18:30 -0400

We would have had a discussion he would not have liked

Response by Sgt Michael Furphy made Jun 22 at 2016 12:33 PM

Sgt Michael Furphy — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:33:00 -0400

When I was a squad leader, a LCPL refused a direct order. There were 2 guys straight out of Infantry Training School standing next to my room waiting for me to assign them a room. These boots were going to be assigned to my squad. We were in the process of cleaning the barracks when I told the LCPL to go help clean the head. I don't know what crawled up his butt, but he refused stating that he lived in town and shouldn't have to clean up. I told him that he walks down our hallway and uses the head, so get in their and start helping. He refused again. Mind you, the new guys were watching what was going on. So I told the LCPL to get in my room where I gave him a good wall to wall counseling session. I then opened my door and drug his half conscious ass back out in the hallway and dropped him in front of the new guys. The new guys turned out to be outstanding Marines. The LCPL called his mommy and she called her congressman. A week or so later I was standing tall in the 1st Sgt.'s office along with the company Gunny. I told them what happened and they told me they would not press charges if I went down to the barracks and beat up a different shitbird, which I was glad to do. In that particular case, I felt I made the right decision. Gotta love the old Corps.

Response by LCpl Andrew Mondejar made Jun 22 at 2016 2:33 PM

LCpl Andrew Mondejar — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:33:22 -0400

Take him inside the treeline and dont touch his face.

Response by PO3 James Bobiney made Jun 22 at 2016 3:22 PM

PO3 James Bobiney — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 15:22:11 -0400

It happened to me once. I was a Specialist in charge of a small detail touching up bumper numbers in the motorpool. Our platoon(maintenance) was always short of NCOs and as a result platoon Sgt would always put me in with our small bunch of NCOs because I was one of the older ones in the platoon(23). I eventually got appointed to Cpl(with no paperwork ever done). I talk about that on my profile page.
But none the less, we had a young Pvt who hated the Army, hated everybody and hated himself I think. Eventually got chaptered out. He didn't want to help, AT ALL. How fuckin hard is it painting bumpers? I mean come on. Anyway, I sent him back to the barracks, told him to stay in his room til last formation(of which he never went). Then told my platoon Sgt. He'd had a history of this type of insubordination and my incident with him was apparently the straw that broke the Camels back. The chapter paperwork started the next day.
Now don't get me wrong, I was about to hem this guy up. I really wanted to. But I was only a Spc and didn't know if there would be any ramifications because of me not being an NCO. So that is why I took the action I did. But apparently it was correct in the commands eyes because it led to him being booted out. We don't need people like that in the Army or military period.
When I was in the Navy Res as a PO3 I, we actually as a whole unit, never had any problems with anyone, and we were in a Marine/Navy Reserve Center. Oh man I loved being a Corpsman in a Marine unit. But that's another story. Anyway, that's just my two bits on a soldier not listening to me. The whole, "you're not an NCO I don't have to listen to you" thing. lol

Response by MCPO Ron ODonnell made Jun 22 at 2016 3:40 PM

MCPO Ron ODonnell — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 15:40:53 -0400

as a retired E-9 I would if set the example immediately..njp or what ever..they are not in a democracy..that seems to get lost these days..take off ur friggen sun glasses now!!!

Response by Cpl Gustave Mire made Jun 23 at 2016 3:58 AM

Cpl Gustave Mire — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 03:58:17 -0400

Embrass the mob mentality. Won't take sunglasses off run the whole damn formation. Do that enough and your guys will handle it for you. Before anyone judges I am not condoning for a soap and pillow case party back at the barracks room but when he or she sees the looks on the others face and most likely a few verbal slangs thrown their way most likely they will straighten up because they know at the end of the road they heading down there is soap and pillow cases. Also even a sb has friends in a platoon they may stop acting an ass just so they don't screw over them.

Response by SGT David Petree made Jun 23 at 2016 4:45 AM

SGT David Petree — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 04:45:26 -0400

you do the paper work that go`s with the canaling statement. And you see about taking part of his or her pay.

Response by CW3 Stephen Mantie made Jun 23 at 2016 6:41 AM

CW3 Stephen Mantie — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 06:41:05 -0400

Make them write an essay on said infraction. Making the Soldier his or her own property can also be considered cruel. Since smoking a Soldier can be considered hazing or 'can hurt their feelings'. Since UCMJ is not usually carried out for infractions like this. Also, the NCO has to watch the Soldier as if he or she committed the crime. Also commanders will say stuff to the NCO like, 'you are unable to deal with your Soldiers'. NCOs are pretty much stuck to making them do things like essays and classes because anything else would be to single them out. I have came to the reality that NCOs have to more creative then when I came in. I know every generation of Soldiers says this but we have became a kinder gentler Army. I have spent 12 years as an NCO (PVT-SFC) and 5 years as a warrant this is my two cents.....

Response by SGT Mike Torres made Jun 23 at 2016 9:30 AM

SGT Mike Torres — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 09:30:22 -0400

Not in my day

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Jun 23 at 2016 10:30 AM

PO1 Donald Hammond — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 10:30:19 -0400

I have no idea what those forms are but when I was LPO I would have had him wear them while scrubbing the bilge.

Response by MSG Clark Shumway made Jun 23 at 2016 2:41 PM

MSG Clark Shumway — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:41:25 -0400

It calls for some "Wall to Wall" counseling then. Grow some balls and deal with it.

Response by CPL(P) Mark Fies made Jun 23 at 2016 3:27 PM

CPL(P) Mark Fies — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 15:27:58 -0400

Ar-15. Put it on paper and make them cut Cooper Field w/Dull Scissors.

Response by Heath Arnold made Jun 23 at 2016 3:45 PM

Heath Arnold — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 15:45:44 -0400

What happened with the pussification of our military. Paperwork for this really? Educate the soldier. That is all. So you get your ass in gear take care of this the old school way. If they crawl your ass take it with no regrets. We are allowing them to mandate us to a new affliction. It is called coddling. Don't be a part of it.

Response by Brenton Miller made Jun 23 at 2016 11:08 PM

Brenton Miller — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 23:08:41 -0400

take the glasses of and crush them underneath my feet, then tell pvt.snuffy to pick it up and if he leaves even a shard of glass on the ground its running time!

Response by SSgt Bruce McClelland made Jun 23 at 2016 11:40 PM

SSgt Bruce McClelland — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 23:40:44 -0400

I say no to crushing them. (I don't have enough points to vote. When I joined I asked admin what they were good for; but I never got an answer.) It's not that Pvt Snuffy doesn't deserve to have them crushed but he'll probably whine to mommy, daddy, or his/her congressperson and Sgt Crusher will both get bad marks and have to pay for them.

Response by PO2 Tom Mcialwain made Jun 23 at 2016 11:49 PM

PO2 Tom Mcialwain — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 23:49:28 -0400

Is there a quonset hut near by?

Response by Cpl Patrik Bernard made Jun 24 at 2016 12:14 AM

Cpl Patrik Bernard — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 00:14:06 -0400

You politely remove them off his or her smiling face and fold them nicely and place them in your pocket.

Response by SSG Kristopher Rigdon made Jun 24 at 2016 12:54 AM

SSG Kristopher Rigdon — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 00:54:40 -0400

You counsel him then give him a week long class on every peace of authorized item he can wear. you have him wear it for a week. Full Battle with packed ruck and a-bag. When he refuses this, push it up to the officers for punishment

Just rennet if you don't have the Authority To do it your self you can't order it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 4:44 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 04:44:03 -0400

Thats easy, He disobey a direct oder from a NCO.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 5:53 AM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 05:53:14 -0400

Smoke him. You guys can still do that right?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 6:37 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 06:37:07 -0400

I've never had a Soldier that refused to listen to clear cut instructions, but all you have to do is start putting it on black and white and leave paper trail that will eventually lead to a pattern of misconduct which will lead to chapter. Or you can push for Article 15 instead of ending a career. Soldiers do not like their free time or money taken.

Response by PO1 Terese Duffy made Jun 24 at 2016 7:20 AM

PO1 Terese Duffy — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 07:20:38 -0400

Violation Army orders of regulations. Specifically failure to obey Army uniform regulations. Then the additional charges of failure to comply with a verbal, insubordination, etc. The list can go on.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 7:34 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 07:34:41 -0400

It's not easy learning, knowing, understanding what your authority is and how to apply it. It is not innate. You want to be in charge. Perhaps you are newly promoted. You have ideas of leading a great band of Soldiers up the hill...but how do you get there. You don't want to "tell" the PSG, 1SG, or commander. Doesn't that make you look weak and like a cry baby?
No, it doesn't.
How often has the Soldier refused to listen to you? Have you refused to listen or bitched about your PSG in front of them? How much personal power and influence do you have with the Soldiers? and this Soldier in particular? You have the position, but how do you influence the others to follow you?
When and how often do you counsel? ever? for both good and bad?
If this is the first time, yes, counsel, on paper, with the "magic bullet." Pull out the MCM and use the outline for Article 91(2), Insubordinate conduct toward warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer, for the counseling. You cannot go wrong because all the pertinent information required is in the script.
(2) Willful disobedience of warrant, noncommissioned, or petty officer.
In that (personal jurisdiction data), having received a lawful order from , a officer, then known by the said to be a officer, to , an order which it was his/her duty to obey, did (at/on board -- location), on or about 20 , willfully disobey the same.
Plus, if you have poor writing skills, this keeps it short and to the point...not rambling through explaining everything that happened to include the color of the glasses and all the on the non-important details NCOs often put in counselings. Need more help? Ask a legal specialist to help you out and teach you how to use the MCM.
Take leadership classes. Learn how to influence people and what tools are available. Leading is not all about telling people what to do.
In addition, know your Soldiers. The behavior is absolutely unacceptable. But get to know them so you know how to lead them...prevent, shape, and win applies here too.
Last, if you are counseling them for something you do, you better check yourself. If you require them to obey you, and not talk sh!t, then hopefully you are providing the example. Children learn what they are taught....Soldiers learn what they see their leaders do.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 9:29 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:29:17 -0400

If they refuse, smoke them til the glasses come off. If the refer to do the corrective training, Art 15. 15/15 half pay.

Response by CPL Jim Husband made Jun 24 at 2016 9:49 AM

CPL Jim Husband — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:49:54 -0400

It depends on the situation. In this situation I would tell the soldier to take them off if he refuse I would pull out of formation and explain you know them glasses is out of regulation so you to to take them off while in formation. If he refuse again I'll write him up for UCMJ makes no since to get out of character to fix this easy problem just my opinion.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 10:05 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:05:56 -0400

Get creative. Get the whole formation in the front leaning rest; excluding the SM with the eyewear. Continue additional PT until the Troop complies. Shouldn't take very long.

Response by SFC Robert Bower made Jun 24 at 2016 11:50 AM

SFC Robert Bower — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:50:35 -0400

If it's a lawful order I'd expect him to adhere to it. If he is just being stupid then article 15 or wall to wall couseling. I'll give the Soldier the choice cause I'm a nice guy.

Response by SPC Robert King made Jun 24 at 2016 11:55 AM

SPC Robert King — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:55:07 -0400

All this UMCJ talk. What happened to making his life hell for a while with a lot of extra activities. Make him/her think before saying No. Try and re-education them the proper military way and if that doesn't work, them submitt the paperwork

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 12:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:10:02 -0400

It's called disobeying a lawful order

Response by PO3 Bo Hunt made Jun 24 at 2016 12:44 PM

PO3 Bo Hunt — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:44:03 -0400

Failure to obey a lawful order. Right there in the UCMJ. Not sure why this is even a question.

Response by CW4 D. Jason Cardona made Jun 24 at 2016 12:53 PM

CW4 D. Jason Cardona — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:53:30 -0400

AR 670-1 now has punitive action to support it. There's about 3 different things you can crush this Soldier for. Disregard SFC Boyd, an NCO is an NCO. Period. If you have a lawful order; crush them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 1:47 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:47:09 -0400

Violation standards and discipline.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 1:47 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:47:19 -0400

Putting things in paper is the biggest bi*ch move ever.
In the Fleet we trade freedom for brutal manual labor... That pretty much always solves the problem

Response by PO3 Derrick Cripe made Jun 24 at 2016 2:55 PM

PO3 Derrick Cripe — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 14:55:29 -0400

Standby to standby !! In front of first sarges office until someone asks why he is there.

Response by SMSgt William Hassiepen made Jun 24 at 2016 4:19 PM

SMSgt William Hassiepen — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:19:29 -0400

In my day the glasses would have been history, then he would get every "shit" job I would think of. Not to mention the fun he'd have on restriction, extra duty, loss of pay for 60 days as well as a reduction in rate.

Response by TSgt Gerald Wilson made Jun 24 at 2016 4:31 PM

TSgt Gerald Wilson — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:31:30 -0400

1.) Strangle him. 2.) As life is extinguished, get close and inhale so as to capture both his soul and his final breath. 3.) Remove sunglasses.

Response by SGT Harley Ruger made Jun 24 at 2016 4:33 PM

SGT Harley Ruger — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:33:51 -0400

In my day we would have dealt with such a soldier in ways that would get you courts marshaled today.

Response by SFC Dean Wyman made Jun 24 at 2016 5:09 PM

SFC Dean Wyman — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 17:09:20 -0400

This is a leadership failure at two levels.
1. Sounds like weak NCO leadership. The NCOs responsible for this soldier should have found the motivating factors necessary to enlighten this marginal troop to understand the need for conformity while in formation, or he should have been removed from the formation. No excuses.
2. The officers in charge of the NCOs should display the professionalism to allow NCOs to conduct NCO business. That means no EO complaints, no "Kinder, Gentler Army" bullshit. BLUF...Sir, this isn't your concern.
Don't crush his glasses or any other horse shit stupid reactions.
Give the soldier a lawful order and if he refuses, have the MPs drag his ass out of formation and initiate UCMJ action....or not, and accept you are part of a totally pussy-fied, social experimental Army.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 5:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 17:10:13 -0400

Instead of getting pissed and butthurt that the old days are gone, learn what the generation gap is, how to mitigate it, and how to make it work for you, your unit, and the Army.

As a Sergeant, you're supposed to learn constantly. I did it. Are you doing it? Or are you going to continue to wring your hands about not being able to hit other people anymore because they didn't do what you say?

Response by SPC Dennis Escobar made Jun 24 at 2016 5:53 PM

SPC Dennis Escobar — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 17:53:35 -0400

I say UCMJ action is the proper way to do it. It is a disiplinary issue specially if the soldier dis it in front of his peers. Even if it's his first offense. Now, if it was in private or nobody saw it, probably I would recomend a suspended article 15 just to prove my point.

Response by Sgt Lowell Tackett made Jun 24 at 2016 7:09 PM

Sgt Lowell Tackett — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:09:09 -0400

When I was promoted to Corporal (USMC) back in 1964, I soon learned that there was more "real-time" authority in my fists than on my sleeves. I sorta gather that the mood has shifted since then...

Response by SFC Sean Murphy made Jun 24 at 2016 7:17 PM

SFC Sean Murphy — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:17:31 -0400

How is this even a question!? Art 15!

Response by Zach Boiko made Jun 24 at 2016 7:56 PM

Zach Boiko — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:56:33 -0400

I failed basic so my opinion means didly squat here but I'd appreciate being heard anyway.

My 1st week in training I got an injury to my foot from misfalling off the rope bridge. I was on profile to not run but walk. Seeing as that was my first real bct experience I was pretty shaken up and nervous about talking to my own ds, much less another companies. When I was walking up to the chow hall one of the other companies in my battalions ds stopped me and asked why I was walking. Nervous as I was I said I was on profile and continued to the chow hall forgetting to address his rank (yes I know much better now) I ended up with an a15 for disrespect of an nco and it wasn't until the night prior to me shipping back home from failing that I finally got to apologize to the nco for my mistake.

My guess is if there's a blatant refusal to follow nco direction they have no respect for the leader and they need a harsh a15 and reminder of the structure of rank and command.

Thanks for hearing my story.

Response by CWO3 William Hanrahan made Jun 24 at 2016 8:27 PM

CWO3 William Hanrahan — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 20:27:12 -0400

Pretty simple Article 92 issue. How you handle is up to you. Never believed in wrecking an SRB if there's another way to gain someone's attention in order to comply with lawful orders and regulations. For me, I either excuse the idiot from MY formation and deal with him privately if he's an otherwise good troop, or I walk over and remove the glasses off his U.S. Government owned nasty face. Then I decide what to do after that. Never, and I mean NEVER surrender your authority to take charge of enforce standards, good order, and discipline!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 8:35 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 20:35:00 -0400

My first thought was to take him to the CO for disciplinary actions. Article 15 etc..... I guess it has been a long time since I crossed to the officers side. On a second thought, it's too early for that. I will order him to take them off a second time. If he refuses he would earn every single shitty duty I can think off. Especially in the weekends when everyone else is off. I would also ask other platoons sergeants if they have any shitty duties to be done. I will keep at it for about a month even if the problem is fixed right away

Response by LCpl Jay King made Jun 24 at 2016 8:51 PM

LCpl Jay King — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 20:51:43 -0400

If he was a Marine...big IF! But if he was a Marine remove said marines glasses along with his head.

Response by LCDR Bruce Cooley made Jun 24 at 2016 9:24 PM

LCDR Bruce Cooley — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 21:24:03 -0400

"Legally"...... NJP comes to mind. That sailor (in my case) would be driving a broom and mop for days, along with extra duty, and a "Training Opportunity" for him to give a presentation to the rest of the division about proper military etiquette, wear of the uniform, proper care of shoes, etc.... The others in that sailors work party 'may' take them for a little personal 'instruction'..... but of course I would know nothing of that.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jun 24 at 2016 10:06 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 22:06:24 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member Hey bud, what do you mean? For example, if I told my Soldier he needed to cut down on all the sweets and replace them with fruit because he was over weight what would I do? In that case, I would make a record on a DA FORM 4856 and put it in his counseling packet to show I am mentoring to him about health and fitness.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Jun 24 at 2016 10:15 PM

LCpl Cody Collins — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 22:15:22 -0400

I would make the whole platoon do push ups while he stands at attention . And when they get tired and angry enough at him / her, the problem will take care of it's self.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 11:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 23:18:09 -0400

No need for Article 15. He wouldn't have any weekend and will be on every shit duties I could fine him.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 12:17 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 00:17:17 -0400

I would not release the formation until he complies with your lawful order. This why he's pissing on his fellow soldiers and they'll whoop his butt for you. But I would also give him corrective punishment.

Response by Cpl Dennis F. made Jun 25 at 2016 1:14 AM

Cpl Dennis F. — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 01:14:40 -0400

Oh Jesus.......you army guys are just so dam complicated! I will never understand how you function at all.

Response by CMSgt Darin Haitsuka made Jun 25 at 2016 4:15 AM

CMSgt Darin Haitsuka — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 04:15:34 -0400

Have the soldier produce his cell phone and call his momma.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 7:36 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 07:36:33 -0400

Start with asking the Soldier to explain why he didn't think he had to follow the order. Perhaps he was wearing prescription glasses which are authorized for wear in formation, even if they are tinted. No matter the case, he should be counseled though. Ncosupport.com has great references and examples.

Response by 1stSgt Frank Spivey made Jun 25 at 2016 8:47 AM

1stSgt Frank Spivey — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 08:47:22 -0400

You need to do something with this person ASAP. If he is not going to obey you orders now do you think he will in combat? Use your chain of command. He needs to be punished Other Soliders will see this and they will do the same. Money and liberty are what's important to him. Go after them.

Response by SFC James Watson made Jun 25 at 2016 10:45 AM

SFC James Watson — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 10:45:52 -0400

I would love to go back to the day when the military wasn't so damn sensitive and you had to write counseling after counseling statement. Being able to settle things in a physical manner usually establishes the pecking order and prevents such situations like this from rarely, if ever happening again.

So, in short, I'd grab him by the throat and punch him so hard in the mouth he shots a pearl necklace the same day.

Response by CPL Tom Mendenhall made Jun 25 at 2016 11:06 AM

CPL Tom Mendenhall — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:06:18 -0400

The soldier should immediately remove the sunglasses. Crushing them beneath his feet seems somewhat severe, unless it is the second time he was told to remove them. Spec 4 M US Army

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 11:18 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:18:13 -0400

As a lower enlisted soldier. I believe highly in the old army and wish it was still like it was 40 years ago. Private snuffy wouldn't have had the chance to even wear sunglasses in formation. At my unit we don't do that. I also believe in individual PT as punishment. Screw your stress cards. You want to mouth off to an NCO, you can just low crawl across the parade field with your weapon in full battle rattle until I get tired. That's what the NCO should have done. That don't work? Then article 15 it is.

Response by SFC Raymond Burge made Jun 25 at 2016 11:20 AM

SFC Raymond Burge — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:20:48 -0400

Put it on paper, failure to follow a lawful order, the soldier is attempting to get a rise and troll the system . Just smile recommend UCMJ take the money and the time. At this point I don't feel that corrective training is appropriate, but a superior or company grade depending on the level of immaturity displayed is.

Response by PO2 Nathan Hughes made Jun 25 at 2016 11:37 AM

PO2 Nathan Hughes — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:37:56 -0400

Put him in charge of someone equally or more stubborn/rebelious than he is.

Response by MGySgt Jeff Griffin made Jun 25 at 2016 12:03 PM

MGySgt Jeff Griffin — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:03:03 -0400

There's no need to write up anyone. Remove the glasses and then let the Pvt know that they will be receiving more personal instructions from you each day. You don't have to negotiate with subordinates. They are there to learn from you on how to become a better Soldier. I also like the crushing them beneath your feet too.

Response by SP5 Damon Hanson made Jun 25 at 2016 12:17 PM

SP5 Damon Hanson — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:17:37 -0400

Simply take them and say "Thank you soldier; I need a new pair." Then get vocal about insubordination, drop him, and remind him he's not on the streets anymore.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 12:42 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:42:37 -0400

I'd question, why did that solider join the military in the 1st place?

Response by SGT Steve Hohman made Jun 25 at 2016 2:15 PM

SGT Steve Hohman — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 14:15:23 -0400

Old school put your foot up his 4th point of contact and crash his glasses

Response by SFC Ed Walsh made Jun 25 at 2016 2:15 PM

SFC Ed Walsh — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 14:15:48 -0400

They get very strong.

Response by LCpl Barney Gaumer made Jun 25 at 2016 2:17 PM

LCpl Barney Gaumer — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 14:17:50 -0400

No, don't write em up. Just mention to your crew that you have a "princess" in the squad who would like to have a blanket party. You of course will have nothing to do with it and when the "princess" shows up the following morning with her pretty shiner you just grin.

Response by MSgt Chris Chambre made Jun 25 at 2016 3:15 PM

MSgt Chris Chambre — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:15:09 -0400

First the assumption is that the punishment needs to occur immediately. No it doesnt. Failure to obey a direct order from an NCO in authority over you is a UCMJ violation. You call up the Legal office and you follow their instructions. After that I'm sure there wont be any further incidents.

Response by SFC Bill Schmitz made Jun 25 at 2016 3:18 PM

SFC Bill Schmitz — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:18:46 -0400

Simple solution- put the rest of the formation in the front leaning rest position until he/she removes the sun glasses. Peer pressure works every time!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 4:25 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:25:27 -0400

as far as ntc no cell phones, saw it many times sm's relieved of thier cell phones, i dont believe in the destruction of anothers personal property to satisfy authority, i do believe in njp, tank traps are a bitch, especially with an e tool, fox holes are another good training method, look to the past and adapt

Response by CPO Joe Miller made Jun 25 at 2016 5:06 PM

CPO Joe Miller — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:06:09 -0400

Punish everyone in ranks. Then tell all of them Space need to be field day and the thank (put name here). Before walking away tell them all to take care of the issue.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 6:02 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 18:02:37 -0400

I find it hard to believe that people are not sure why this incident happened.
1. Today's NCO's are a product of crappy leadership. There was a time when a E-3, E-4 didn't want any part of a NCO. We were masters of our universe and students of out craft. Now we have alot of people that stand on what they did over there and never had the chance to learn or understand doctrine or indoctrination. This is true on the officer and enlisted ends of the spectrum. Be butthurt all you want. Out leadership training is lacking. We have not learned from our past. Our NCO's do not understand the influence they has and because of this do not exercise it. Too many officer do not understand the NCO role. Out family is about as dyslexic as a brother and sister swinging group from West-by-god.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jun 25 at 2016 6:09 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 18:09:34 -0400

He'd be on every shit detail I could think of, then some.
Got to get approval from the 1st shirt of course and his help. But I'd bury his ass as deep as I could in bullshit.

Response by Josh Sebastian made Jun 25 at 2016 8:07 PM

Josh Sebastian — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:07:43 -0400

well in my opinion america has gotten soft a good ol stoumic punch and scream at his ass would surfice then have every one in the barracks beat his ass this is war man not no fucking pony ride i would have joined the military but apparently seince i cant get a ged because i dont know calculis i cant go fuck that we should change the law ANY HEALTHY BODY MAN/WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT AS A UNITED STATES CITIZEN TO JOIN THE MILITARY WITHOUT ANYSAY IF I FEEL LIKE PICKING UP A RIFLE AND GOING OVER SEES WEATHER IT BE KOREA/JAPAN/BRITAN/ANY WHERE TO STOP THE NEXT CRAZY FUCKER WHO WANTS TO BE HILTER COME ON MY HOME LAND MY SOIL WHERE I GREW UP WHERE I WAS BORN AND RAISED TO HARM MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY BY GOD LET ME FUCKING JOIN PLAIN AND SIMPLE

Response by PO1 Randy Palermo made Jun 25 at 2016 8:13 PM

PO1 Randy Palermo — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:13:54 -0400

Back in the late 60's you would have been brought in the DI's office and got your ass kicked

Response by Sgt Peter Frangedakis made Jun 25 at 2016 8:14 PM

Sgt Peter Frangedakis — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:14:28 -0400

They'd fall off from all those miles, pushups and whatever the else I would do. Extreme example of this shit bird

Response by Sgt Michael Cardinale made Jun 25 at 2016 8:40 PM

Sgt Michael Cardinale — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:40:15 -0400

NJP. Enough said.

Response by SFC Cameron Cranston made Jun 25 at 2016 9:52 PM

SFC Cameron Cranston — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:52:38 -0400

I am truly amazed at most of the SSG's responses. "Be touchy feely and find out what is bothering him then we'll all have a group hug". Dear God! What have the libtards done to the Army. Refusing a lawful order? Stomp a mud hole in his ass and kick it dry. Yeah its brutal but it works. The Army is not a democracy. Its totalitarian and I'm the Chief Dictator.

Response by PO3 Robert Pierrepont made Jun 25 at 2016 10:01 PM

PO3 Robert Pierrepont — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 22:01:31 -0400

Conex box counseling used to be an answer now you have to stick to the pc crap

Response by LTC Matthew Robinson made Jun 25 at 2016 10:22 PM

LTC Matthew Robinson — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 22:22:32 -0400

As a former NCO, I would recommend him/her for UCMJ and as a former Company CDR I'd support you. Seems rather simple to me.

Response by SSG Shafter Baker made Jun 25 at 2016 10:38 PM

SSG Shafter Baker — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 22:38:53 -0400

Start with 670-1. Then Article 92; Failure to obey an order or regulation, then Article 91; Insubordination. Any NCO weak enough to allow this to happen should be administratively reduced for ineffective leadership and just plain old incompetence.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 11:16 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 23:16:13 -0400

First I'm going to take a picture of the soldier in the unauthorized eyewear. Then I'm going to come up with an immediate painfully mind numbing or time wasting errand that the soldier will be doing so that his peers see an immediate response. This will not be Snuffy's actual corrective training though. The first bit is something that he just "volunteered" himself for, but has to be immediate and in front of how peers because of his challenge to authority.
When Snuffy comes back later the 4856 will be written up with the magic statement included. For a first time offence I would discuss why it is important to follow orders, taking up lots of his free time. Then I would have him suggest his own corrective training. If I like it, I'll go with it. Otherwise I'll assign him his own duty, such as writing up an essay on the importance of following orders and the chain of command. It will be due to the CQ desk that Saturday, where I will pick it up. The Article 15 will be mentioned but probably not pursued unless it happens again. And hey, I've still got that photo evidence of the initial uniform violation so the case is already being built. Next up, extra duty and loss of pay. Don't make me go there private!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 11:51 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 23:51:52 -0400

write him up. start the paper work to boot him from the Service. Don't hit him don't yell and call him names. tell him he is excused from formation and to report to the Lt or CO.

Response by SSgt David Dean made Jun 25 at 2016 11:53 PM

SSgt David Dean — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 23:53:45 -0400

Showing-up with sunglasses is an asshat move that should be remedied with a simple conversation. Refusing to remove them is refusal of a lawful order & should be handled as such. This is a case of insubordination. You were in formation, then uniformity is important. A commander not willing to support an issue involving insubordination is not worthy of his or her rank. You are not throwing the book at a uniform violation (which should never occur outside of basic training), you are dealing with insubordination. It's a much different situation.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2016 12:20 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 00:20:18 -0400

First things first, yes I am a SPC. Nevertheless while on active duty I had soldiers assigned to me and had counseling authority over them. With that in mind consider what I'm writing, not the rank I hold.
I do have one important question that I haven't seen addressed in the comments before I continue:
Why are you referencing the Army Command Policy on EO (AR 600-20) for information on counseling and UCMJ exactly? Information specific to the counseling process can be found in ATP 6-22.1 while information specific to the Uniform Code of Military Justice can be found within the UCMJ itself, with articles 77-134 describing offenses subject to punitive actions.
If you recommend a soldier for UCMJ over something like this, especially if there's no documented patter of disobedience reflected in their monthly developmental counseling statements the only outcome is going to be a really negative bullet on your next NCOER. Unless both your CO and 1st SGT are really old-school.
Write up an event-oriented counseling statement to reflect the soldier's refusal to obey your order. As a POA offer up something simple that allows the soldier an out, like a written essay/apology that will stay between you and the soldier.
EX: "PVT Snuffy, on 01 May 2016 you were instructed by myself (SGT Hamilton) to remove your sunglasses during a formation. This instruction was given because the sunglasses were unauthorized for wear per AR 670-1 for the following reasons (possessed a logo, etc.) You chose to ignore my instructions. As a result you are being counseled for your disobedience of a direct order in accordance with the UCMJ. Further incidents of this sort may result in recommendation for disciplinary action for violation of the UCMJ, specifically Article 91: Insubordinate Conduct toward Warrant Officer, Non-commissioned Officer or Petty Officer. As this is your first offense of this nature I am instead offering you corrective counseling to address your offense."
Your plan of action (POA) for the offending soldier would then read something like this:
EX: "Using the UCMJ (specifically Article 91,) AR 670-1 and FM-3-21.5 you will draft a 1000 word essay describing both how and why your actions on the morning of 01 May 2016 were wrong. This essay willl be constructed in accordance with the Chicago Manual of Style, copies of which are available at your local (or post) library and will contain relevant citations and quotations which are not to be counted toward the final total of 1000 words. This essay is to be submitted to myself (SGT Hamilton) no later than 0800 08 May 2016 for review."
If you think your soldier is an otherwise good soldier who just temporarily lost their mind you can take the issue more public without risking losing authority and write up a POA something like:
EX: "Following final formation on 01 May 2016 you will be offered the opportunity to address the formation. In doing so you will issue a public apology for your actions for the benefit of your fellow junior enlisted soldier's professional development in the form of an After Action Review detailing your refusal to follow my instructions, why that refusal was wrong and your own acknowledgement of this fact."
Following the event oriented counseling you need to make sure that the incident is addressed as a bullet in the soldier's monthly developmental counseling as well as whether or not they successfully completed the proscribed POA to correct their behavior... this is the "New Army" your counseling game needs to be on point after all!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2016 1:43 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 01:43:41 -0400

First call the formation to Attention walk to soldier take his glasses off unless he has a written updated profile from US Army Doctor says he is On A profile and his glasses or sun glasses are of US Army Regulations and is authorized to wear them. When you go to soldier in question you ask for his Profile or Authorized permission. If he has it then you makesure that he to make copies and give to chain command. If he can not show evidence or has forgot or whatever excuse??? Then you I am going to take your glasses off put them in your pocket and then say after this event or after commanders formation you ask him to come see him after formation to collect his glasses and to get profile or Doctors note. If he can't produce or have with his Team Leader, SQD Leader his chain of command sit down go over this with him rules regulations. Then a counciling statement with the SQD Leader, Team Leader is present with there discussion and signing the council statement. You keep a paper trail on the conduct and behavior plus all the good, bad, ugly. So there is a paper trail so when it's time for a AR 15. UCMJ. Field Grade or Company Grade. You have had done your part as a Leader to show him this is how it is done. So when it's time for anykind of punishment etc. You have a paper trail that has followed him from Basic Training and as he goes to different units or assignments or orders for schools it is all in his file and now if he goes to IG or goes above chain of command or chaplain you have all these statements to back your talks, punishments, anything this is the right way because if the Army wants to boot him they can see all of the statements to put him out of the Army. By chance if this soldiers has a permanent profile and you asked him to take off glasses and he said no and he explain then he has the right by rules and regulations US Army policy doesn' have to take off glasses even there was a direct order from the highest in command because he would be breaking his permanent profile which he can be In more hot water for breaking profile. It's all about getting to know your soldiers more. Call on each soldier individually with his individual file ask all the questions and get to know his weaknesses or strengths. Profiles. Where he wants to go and what he or she wants to accomplish and any other concerns. At that time you give your speech on how, what ,where, when, of your expectations. Then you make sure this soldiers records or file is up to date on profiles, allergies, heat/ cold casualty. Then you make sure he has at least two copies with his I.D and Dog Tags. Up todate military drivers lic, state lic, insurance , registration etc. Religion etc... all this stuff.!!! So when you are in a formation or some where you know what's going on and you can look at soldier because now have established a basis and first council statement of your expectations. So if your soldier has brain fart you can just call him to side of formation and ask if he is all right or just do not want to comply . That is when you can drop the axe. It takes alot but if you know your soldiers and another NCO or Officer dogs out your soldier then you can back your soldiers rights and can make it stick. If you do not know your soldiers you have failed them and you have set yourself up for failure and when shit hits fan there might be two people in trouble or loosing rank than just one. It can all be avoided if you sit together as a CO, PLT SQD, Team or Individual soldier to get to know them and they learn to respect you are making the decisions or knowing what is right and wrong. I have been in 12 yrs and pays to know your rules, Regs, DOD policys, FM's, AR, UCMJ. Any way if you give orders it pays to know your soldiers because if you give an order and you are looking like an Ate up cheese burger or chewed up bubble gum. Others will know you as an individual soldier Lower Enlisted or NCO, CO will be replaced or transferred if you can't cut it or you fail as a leader or you just have nobody's respect comes with territories of born leaders and people skills.

Response by SFC James Smith made Jun 26 at 2016 6:29 AM

SFC James Smith — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 06:29:58 -0400

In the new volunteer Army if the 70's ... insure the soldier does not have a profile allowing/requiring him to wear the eyewear. Give him one additional chance to remove the eyewear. Even if the soldier complies with the second order, insure he knows he has already violated a lawful order. If the soldier then complies, continue with your duty. At the next available time, inform the soldier he will be performing corrective training for his refusal to obey a order. Write up the incident for your Platoon Leader and First Sergeant. Under no circumstance do you get into a physical contest in front of the other troops.

If there is a second refusal, remove the eyewear as you are lawfully allowed to do. If there is physical resistance, dismiss the soldier from formation and order him to report to the orderly room and wait for your arrival. Detail another NCO to instruct the company clerk as to why the soldier is waiting. At the next available time ask two other senior NCO's to advise/assist/witness your well thought out completion of the situation ... confiscation of the eyewear, administration of corrective training (private physical correction may be available); write it up (to document for future events and to CYA) reporting the incident to your Platoon Leader and First Sergeant who may may choose administrative, UCMJ, punishment.

Go home an dream of pounding private dumbass into the dirt!

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Jun 26 at 2016 7:08 AM

1SG Harold Piet — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 07:08:37 -0400

I had a CSM in NTC, called the MPs and had a soldier arrested and hauled away that refused to obey his order. I think if you are the senior rank that is the correct step, if you are not the senior rank, stop, bring it to the attention of the next higher rank in your chain that is there. Once the soldier is arrested for disobeying the order. he or she is smoked, legally.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2016 9:08 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 09:08:07 -0400

still refusing a lawful order by a non commission officer period. yes i would recommend USCJ action depending on how many times the soldier as been written up for misconduct

Response by PO2 Jeremy Irish made Jun 26 at 2016 10:17 AM

PO2 Jeremy Irish — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 10:17:27 -0400

As an older time sailor, I believe knocking them off his face with a right cross to be in order, crush them , then make him pick up the litter He/She dropped on your parade ground. Just saying.......

Response by SSgt Thomas Blake made Jun 26 at 2016 4:03 PM

SSgt Thomas Blake — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:03:58 -0400

I think the soldier would accidentally run into the instructors fist........pure coincidence of course!!!

Response by SFC Rob Frisk made Jun 26 at 2016 4:44 PM

SFC Rob Frisk — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:44:13 -0400

"If you are wearing unauthorized eyewear in my formation, remove them now..." if that doesn't open some minds, "Open ranks, March, half right, face..." you know the rest.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2016 7:16 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 19:16:49 -0400

I think the politically correct answer is you get him flowers, take him to breakfast and ask how he or she feels. In reality write them up, the former post was completely accurate, failure to obey a lawful order

Response by Sgt William Barr made Jun 26 at 2016 8:24 PM

Sgt William Barr — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 20:24:40 -0400

he is out of uniform and disobeyed a order so give him extra duty or ucmj

Response by Sgt Joseph Baker made Jun 26 at 2016 8:59 PM

Sgt Joseph Baker — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 20:59:50 -0400

Out of uniform to start with. Then failure to follow a lawful order.

Response by SGT David Lawrence made Jun 27 at 2016 12:58 AM

SGT David Lawrence — Mon, 27 Jun 2016 00:58:21 -0400

An immediate training session on the low crawl would commence! Low crawl until those gay bands break!

Response by GySgt Bill Ward made Jun 27 at 2016 4:43 AM

GySgt Bill Ward — Mon, 27 Jun 2016 04:43:23 -0400

First of ALL!
Follow all the dress codes, especially on parade deck!
Secondary!
Never disrespect your NCO, or his commands!
If all that won't work, be a prissy, and go tell Gunny he was mean to you, lol
That should work lol

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2016 8:43 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jun 2016 08:43:45 -0400

THAT's why I'm retiring....!!! This MUCH "KINDER, GENTLER" Army is not for me anymore!!! I would reach down his throat, pull his tongue out...slap him in the face with it...make him put it his pocket and then do "mountain climbers" till he passed out....PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jun 28 at 2016 12:11 AM

SSG Mark Franzen — Tue, 28 Jun 2016 00:11:58 -0400

GIVE a written counseling and let him Know that not acceptable and if it continues that you will recommend UMCJ Actions. And you might also I am the one charge and you will listen to what I say.

Response by SFC Patrick Vaughn made Jun 28 at 2016 11:16 AM

SFC Patrick Vaughn — Tue, 28 Jun 2016 11:16:07 -0400

Stay on the 4856. Make the punishment fit the crime. Have them write proper papers on the offense, take their free time, flag for promotions,awards, passes, schools, college, dress uniform inspections on Saturdays, and etc. You can get creative. If the soldier doesn't want to be there, there is always a Chapter for that kind of discharge. Be consistent and DO THE PAPER WORK. It takes time but your POG will be well on its way or reformed. You let these soldiers slide by, they just might be your supervisor next

Response by MSgt Robert Gardner made Jun 28 at 2016 1:24 PM

MSgt Robert Gardner — Tue, 28 Jun 2016 13:24:56 -0400

yes it's called refusing a direct order--- if you stand there and look stupid what do you think the other troops will listen to your order's ahhh no they will not example -------if your in a battle and you tell the troops to move forward and don't---- who the fuck is in charge

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2016 4:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Jun 2016 16:49:07 -0400

It's going to be a long day for joe snuffy.

Response by SPC Jay Hefty made Jun 29 at 2016 2:29 PM

SPC Jay Hefty — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 14:29:40 -0400

As a private I would have preferred wall to wall counseling over Article 15. Ignoring the prescribed uniform is against the uniform standard and needs to be immediately corrected. If the soldier has such a poor attitude to not comply then roast his ass. That private has become your personal detail rat. If he self corrects then no problem. If he doesn't then if he doesn't and ends up going through summary, company, field grade ART 15s and is exited. It doesn't matter the rank either.

Response by Stan Radkowski made Jun 29 at 2016 7:23 PM

Stan Radkowski — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 19:23:33 -0400

UCMJ.... max him out

Response by SGT Alejandro Sarandrea made Jul 5 at 2016 1:07 PM

SGT Alejandro Sarandrea — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 13:07:44 -0400

For this example, a few factors are important. the most important factor is time, how much time do you have to make the correction. If you don't have much time, you have three choices; let it go; or make sure someone senior ranking like the platoon Sargent takes notice ( if this is a platoon formation or company formation). If it's your formation, make every one push while he stands in front of the formation for not policing their battle buddy until he takes his glasses off. Once his glasses are off; you let him know he's getting counseled. You have to put it on paper. This joe will continue to try you till he gets his first bit of extra duty.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Jul 7 at 2016 2:11 PM

PO1 Donald Hammond — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 14:11:20 -0400

After reading a bunch of these answers, I see that I agree with the major point, the insubordination must not be allowed to continue. But HOW you handle it is very important. The person must be made to understand that anything and everything that happens to them is THEIR fault. Like "I hate to make you run 5 gabillion miles with an aircraft carrier on your back towing a convoy of tanks, but you chose this path."

Now the main thing all leaders have to understand is that at some point you must give up on the underling and get rid of them. This is probably what they want so make sure it is as painful as possible for them.

Oh, and instead of stomping on the sunglasses, just take them and "hold onto them" for the soldier until they are on liberty. Make sure everyone knows you are doing them a favor since obviously they had nowhere to safely keep those sunglasses. You are just keeping them out of trouble with even higher ups by putting them in a safe place.

Response by SGM(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2016 1:52 AM

SGM(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 01:52:43 -0400

Physically touching a Soldier in an aggressive manner now constitutes assault. In fact, there is no reason to touch a Soldier. I have scanned several comments on this post. Some of you senior NCOs either need to find new jobs, or re-evaluate your leadership skill. If one of my PSGs is in anyway involved in hazing, he will be relieved of his duties the same week.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2016 7:28 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 19:28:01 -0400

Put it on paper, if I'm nice that day show the soldier the regulation. Mentor that soldier I stead of giving correction.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 5:09 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:09:25 -0400

Smoke his ass to soot.

Response by PO3 Steven Adams made Jul 12 at 2016 10:45 PM

PO3 Steven Adams — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:45:40 -0400

No UCMJ I Myself will not be disrespected in front of my team I am a team leader for that I handle it this way .If in formation I ordered a team member to remove the unauthorized sun glasses I would repeat the command one more time and if the member still refuses we will all stay in formation until they come off which I would think wouldn't be long

Response by PO3 Steven Adams made Jul 12 at 2016 10:50 PM

PO3 Steven Adams — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:50:33 -0400

Response by Maj Ken Brown made Jul 14 at 2016 12:51 PM

Maj Ken Brown — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 12:51:20 -0400

George Marshall called the Army the greatest democracy in the world. an order is issued and it's either obeyed or not.

A direct order? Remove the malefactor away from his audience, give him (or her) a chance to change their mind; if not, that's what Article 15 is for. It's not personal, just business. Refrain from choking the momma's-boy.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jul 14 at 2016 8:00 PM

SSG Mark Franzen — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 20:00:22 -0400

Well the is a tactful way of doing it and if not I would simply write him up and recommend a Art 15 for dis obey a direct order.

Response by SSG Joseph Robinson made Jul 21 at 2016 6:13 AM

SSG Joseph Robinson — Thu, 21 Jul 2016 06:13:13 -0400

Document with a counseling statement.

Response by SGT Marc Chestnut made Jul 22 at 2016 5:34 PM

SGT Marc Chestnut — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:34:19 -0400

first find out if the Soldier has a medical condition that authorizes the soldier to have them on the first place (this is where the regs come into place) The soldier should have some form of documentation if so the soldier needs to produce it on the spot,If the soldier has no such documentation then you tell the soldier to take them off if he refuses then you see the soldier offline after the formation. you verbally counsel the soldier then you write him up per 4856-e by this the soldier should be in front of the first Sergeant as to why him/her refused a lawfully order from a Non Comissioned Officer

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2016 12:05 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 12:05:15 -0400

Remedial pt

Response by SSG Jeremy Sharp made Aug 3 at 2016 3:47 AM

SSG Jeremy Sharp — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 03:47:00 -0400

Since the soldier saw fit to disobey your lawful order in front of the entire formation and usurp your authority in front of your command, the response should be immediate and in front of the formation. "PVT Snuffy, if you do not follow my order to remove the unauthorized eyewear immediately, you will leave me no alternative but to refer the matter to command for appropriate disciplinary action consideration up to and including the possibility of criminal charges being filed under the UCMJ with all unit members present at this formation being subjected to interview for the purpose of providing testimony against you." If they then fail to immediately correct their unacceptable behavior, immediately take action. As a leader, NCO, CO or WO you cannot allow a subordinate to disrespect you in front of your command without immediate correction and consequence.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Aug 25 at 2016 1:22 PM

1SG Harold Piet — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 13:22:05 -0400

that formation would not end with him not facing the 1SG , and life would turn downhill fast,

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Sep 23 at 2016 1:45 AM

LCpl Steve Smith — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 01:45:10 -0400

I'm not sure if I have already replied to this question before I will have to go back and check. But today is a new day and if he/she is refusing to fallow Lawful Orders, to me it sounds like he or she doesn't want to be in the Army anymore and I would help them by recommending Office Hours for him/her to your O.I.C. and of course there will be 5 or more other charges tacked on to. There are Plenty of Soldiers that want to be there and make the military it their life hence the name "Lifers" they don't need someone there sucking the wind out of everyone's sails by being a shit bird. Plus We are in a Downsize mode so that Soldier sounds to me to be nothing but Dead Weight that needs to be cut loose. Hell is Hard enough for those that Eat, Sleep, and Breath The Military Like and Have it running in their body like Blood to stay in now a days. So why not Make some room for another Lifer to move in.

892. Art. 92. Failure to obey order or regulation
Any person subject to this chapter who- (1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation; (2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Response by SFC James Liedtka made Sep 29 at 2016 12:50 PM

SFC James Liedtka — Thu, 29 Sep 2016 12:50:53 -0400

I hit the last one. Everyone listened good after that. It wasn't intentional as I was just going to smack the cigarette out of his hand. Possibly I was standing too close. But message was received and transferred directly to long-term memory.

Response by CPO Bill Canada made Sep 29 at 2016 1:40 PM

CPO Bill Canada — Thu, 29 Sep 2016 13:40:29 -0400

My sailors knew that I would give them the shit jobs and would make sure that their liberty time was curtailed drastically. I very seldom passed disciplinary problems up the chain of command as that would be a failure on my part as the division chief or leading petty officer. To the man they would tell you that Canada's mast was way worse than Captains mast as the Chief could ruin your day for a long time the captain only screwed up your paycheck. We did not fill out a mess of paper work we just took the bull by the horns and got the job done.

Response by PO1 Todd B. made Sep 29 at 2016 6:07 PM

PO1 Todd B. — Thu, 29 Sep 2016 18:07:55 -0400

Laundry bags aboard ship could just about fit even a larger person.. and filled with one and the darkness of night outside the skin of the ship at sea with nothing but the sound and swish of water flowing past... THAT could be a very good way to 'remind' someone of the dangers if they continued to be the shit bird they were.

Not that I ever participated in doing something like that to anyone, of course... just sayin'....

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Oct 6 at 2016 5:13 PM

SSG Mark Franzen — Thu, 06 Oct 2016 17:13:22 -0400

First off Has anyone thought maybe to sit down and ask if has a problem and if you could Help or someone else can. The Second thing explain to him if he doesn't listen to you than I would put it in Writing and if it CONTINUES I would recommend a AR15. I had one troop back in my day did that very thing and He is Now outside with general Discharge.

Response by Sgt Joseph Baker made Oct 13 at 2016 11:11 PM

Sgt Joseph Baker — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 23:11:27 -0400

Unless you are still in boot camp, punishing the whole unit is inappropriate in my opinion. Boot camp is over, now dealing with Marines not recruits. Calmly let him know that you are giving him a lawful order that will be backed up with the UCMJ which may result in them losing pay and rank which means now doing jobs you used to have to do but don't because of rank. Article 136 was it, the catch-all article. Also remind them that though they think they can get away with the sunglasses issue, but they should think about how people get picked for less-desirable activities.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2016 9:20 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Oct 2016 09:20:23 -0400

Give him the option of it going down on paper or smoke him.

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Oct 16 at 2016 12:23 PM

SGT Frank Pritchett — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 12:23:36 -0400

Counceling ,statements, if properly used, is an effective tool. Since the Army has become a softer gentler Army insubordination is routine and common, but can be delt with. A track record has to be established and then you can do somthing but on a counceling statemenet you can can recomend UCMJ actions if you statement the UCMJ properly. Todays Soldiers are smarter and NCO's advanceing through the ranks at record paseses ar lacking the "Common Core Training" to be an effective leader.
Insubordination is in AR 600-20 but you need the 1SG support.

Response by SP5 James Walker made Jan 13 at 2017 2:25 PM

SP5 James Walker — Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:25:00 -0500

I remember a few years ago my unit was at hunter liggett taking part in the PACWARRIOR excersize. We were the only unit from our battalion that was attending and we were placed under a different battalion/brigade for the purposes of the excersize. We were called to a brigade level foration one sunny afternoon. I was a squad leader in a horizontal construction platoon at the time, before we left our tent I told my squad to make sure they had clear eye pro with them because they would be switching from tinted to clear for the formation. A few were butthurt, and the other platoon/squad leadership scoffed at that notion but my troops followed the order anyway. We got to the formation and I inspected my squad before the brigade CSM took charge of the formation to ensure that everyone had clear eye pro, all the while the other squad leaders in my platoon all laughed and joked that I was just being a prick. Well when that CSM took charge of the formation he looked around, then looked right at me and pointed, "what's your name sgt?" I responded with my name and my duty posistion, he said "what I'm about to say does not apply to you and your troops" he proceeded to berate the rest of the brigade about all the troops wearing sunglasses in his formation, and how he was disgusted that the NCO's in his formation would allow their troops to disrespect the regulation and the brigade commander. He chewed everyone a new ass for about 10 minutes. When it was all said and done he walked up, shook my hand, gave me a brigade coin, and told my troops that they should consider themselves lucky to have an NCO that doesn't overlook the little things, that it will make them all better soldiers. That was one if my proudest moments in my 12 years in the army. After that I always found my troops checking each other out before formations, making sure that they had the correct gear and that uniforms were squared away. The other squad leaders talked a little shit about me with the tails between their legs haha

Response by SPC Franklin McKown made Jan 20 at 2017 2:12 AM

SPC Franklin McKown — Fri, 20 Jan 2017 02:12:59 -0500

I physically assaulted him, I was a specialst with a mission to keep the game in play.
My NCOs were already BUSY and trusted ME to get things done.
AND EXTEREMLY CAREFULLY avoided any unnecessary details ....like 4 times really ,nothing broken.Pressure points were fine.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Jan 20 at 2017 2:49 AM

GySgt Charles O'Connell — Fri, 20 Jan 2017 02:49:36 -0500

Try issuing Orders, and not Directions.

Response by SSgt Tony Basile made Jan 20 at 2017 5:55 PM

SSgt Tony Basile — Fri, 20 Jan 2017 17:55:50 -0500

Shoot the basterd in the foot.... if he don't get the message, the rest "_will

Response by SGM Nathan Thomas made Jan 26 at 2017 1:20 PM

SGM Nathan Thomas — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 13:20:13 -0500

First is you have to have good order and discipline. You need to nip it in the bud right away. Get your First Sergeant in on the deal where you can have some additional duties for the soldier to perform with you as the supervisor where the soldier has to take orders from you. He should of course be written up and in the counseling let them know they are in violation of Art 91 or 92 of the UCMJ and what the punishment is for this. Outline that he will be going through additional training as a result of this and if it continues what will happen. If you are in Europe, then have his pass privileges pulled.

Now, you also need to evaluate yourself to ensure that you are being a good role model of what a non-commissioned officer should be.

Response by Sgt Lowell Tackett made Jan 26 at 2017 7:05 PM

Sgt Lowell Tackett — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 19:05:13 -0500

Kick his/her a#@; right there - on the spot. Orders required to be followed in a culture whose purpose is warfare doesn't have room for touchy/feely "discussions". The lesson needs to be driven home immediately and impressively. Did I say "her"?! Why yes, I did. The girls want to play the game, they're gonna have to deal with the same consequences. Sorry, but soldiering is a hard-knock life. It's only purpose is violence and death-dealing. On "game day" it's a little late to be instilling the instincts of command and obedience. Oh, and I'm speaking from personal experience.

Response by Sgt Joseph Baker made Feb 9 at 2017 7:19 PM

Sgt Joseph Baker — Thu, 09 Feb 2017 19:19:30 -0500

I am pretty sure this would qualify as a lawful order. In fact, the only orders they have the option of not following are orders that are expressly unlawful. The UCMJ always leans toward following orders, not ignoring orders. If this troop wants to openly refuse an order in the presence of the command, then you really have no choice to but step on his neck, for the betterment of the unit. He needs to get the concept that in formation the guy standing in front is in-charge of the formation and you do what you are told, even if it's just a matter of your appearance not standing out among the rest of the formation. If you don't, then plenty more will start doing their own thing as well and you don't have all day to deal with people doing their thing. That goes doubly for combat operations. At least that was how things went in the Corps.

Response by SSG Scott Thelen made Feb 10 at 2017 4:38 PM

SSG Scott Thelen — Fri, 10 Feb 2017 16:38:47 -0500

Article 91: Failure to obey a lawful order. It's as simple as that. One does wonder how a soldier has become so disobedient in the first place?

Response by SFC Daniel Zelch made Feb 11 at 2017 8:10 AM

SFC Daniel Zelch — Sat, 11 Feb 2017 08:10:08 -0500

You snatch said glasses off soldiers face and destroy them with a vengeance. This not only corrects the problem, it establishes a standard to all the other soldiers. 1: do not violate established standards, 2: I, as you first line supervisor will or be tested, corrections will be handed out immediately and without reguard to rank, creed, or color.

Response by GySgt Melissa Gravila made Feb 11 at 2017 9:51 AM

GySgt Melissa Gravila — Sat, 11 Feb 2017 09:51:16 -0500

Look him square in the eye, and calmly state that life is simply a series of choices- he made his, now it's my turn to make mine. Instruct the rest of the formation to "fall out" but stay close by (making it loud and clear that I don't want any witnesses). THEN remove the sunglasses, crush them and explain that I am the H.M.F.I.C. and everyone is the same height in the horizontal position. Also remind him it's not the first time I've been in a fight, won't be the last, I'm not scared of being hit, I will damn well make sure he looks way worse than I do at the end of it. Then give the order for the formation to fall back in- problem solved. A little intimidation goes a long way
S/F

Response by SSG Omar Rodriguez Sanchez made Feb 11 at 2017 10:37 AM

SSG Omar Rodriguez Sanchez — Sat, 11 Feb 2017 10:37:51 -0500

1) if the soldier has been wearing them for a while now, then there's been a lack of leadership.
2) if it's his first time I would stand him at attention do a uniform inspection, politely take them off his face and have him come get them after formation.
3) if this persist then I would smoke the shit out of him/her until their arms are so week that they can't pick up their arms to put on the sunglasses.
4) last ucmj action.

Response by GySgt Mike Angelo made Feb 11 at 2017 11:45 AM

GySgt Mike Angelo — Sat, 11 Feb 2017 11:45:38 -0500

I am not saying what I did was right; it wasn't, fortunately for me I was never caught! My philosophy was you do what I tell you do to because I am the Gunny! Rather than smear or soil my troops record I chose this route to take them into a BEQ room, shut the door and who ever walked out was declared either the winner or the one who was right! Just saying! I didn't have to do that very often!

Response by Sgt Freddie Fay made Feb 12 at 2017 5:23 PM

Sgt Freddie Fay — Sun, 12 Feb 2017 17:23:31 -0500

He or she finds them self on the ground , then is ordered to start crawling back to the barracks. No slack

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Feb 12 at 2017 5:29 PM

SSG Mark Franzen — Sun, 12 Feb 2017 17:29:40 -0500

I would say give him a Verbal counseling and If He continued with other things than put it on Paper and tell Him that if it continues that You will Be Given a AR15 for Disrespect under the UMCJ.
SSG MARK FRANZEN
USA VET

Response by Sgt Thomas McKinley made Feb 13 at 2017 3:26 PM

Sgt Thomas McKinley — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 15:26:41 -0500

Work Details and disciplinary action!

Response by SGT Donald B Hearn Jr. made Feb 14 at 2017 11:04 AM

SGT Donald B Hearn Jr. — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 11:04:52 -0500

Put a boot whare thesun don't shin

Response by Rickey Brannon made Feb 21 at 2017 9:50 PM

Rickey Brannon — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 21:50:38 -0500

I would have slap the taste out of his mouth

Response by CPT Wiliam Miller made Feb 23 at 2017 1:22 AM

CPT Wiliam Miller — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 01:22:17 -0500

I would refer to the platoon sgt and maybe to the platoon leader or first sgt

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2017 8:59 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 08:59:33 -0500

The problem is, there is too little information here. Yes, he/she refused to take off his/ her sunglasses, but is this the first time they have disobeyed a lawful order? If so, there may be an underlying cause. Maybe those sunglasses covered something they didn't want everyone to see (I.e. A bruise or cut from a fight they had, a domestic). Pull them aside and figure it out after formation with their team leader. If this is not. Start the paper trail. That doesn't always mean an article 15 right off the bat, if a counseling statement could do the job. You don't want to damn a soldier that could be an asset to his team further down the road.

Response by SPC Franklin McKown made Feb 23 at 2017 2:07 PM

SPC Franklin McKown — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 14:07:37 -0500

Funny WE usually cooperated to complete the mission, if someone didn't I would ...tell him of the creative methods of harm I could do RIGHT there,after that silence.THEY did as they were told,jerks like that are why I am SO thankful I never served in a draft. OR lately ...

Response by SFC Ronald Hebert made Feb 23 at 2017 2:18 PM

SFC Ronald Hebert — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 14:18:32 -0500

With no witnesses present, kick the living crap out of this person, other than were he/she had a profile to wear sunglasses.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2017 7:52 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 07:52:20 -0500

Koala-fy him and see how long his saweeeet sunglasses stay on. Then send him to the CO for at a minimum company grade UCMJ.

Response by SSG Robert Pratt made Feb 24 at 2017 11:44 AM

SSG Robert Pratt — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 11:44:33 -0500

Disobeying a lawful order is a serious offense, he should be brought before the PLT SGT/ 1st SGT ASAP.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2017 11:12 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:12:44 -0500

Step 1) Explain to the soldier that I don't like being "that guy," but I'm really good at being "that guy," so he or she doesn't want me to become "that guy." Repeat the instruction.
Step 2) Upon continued refusal, counsel the soldier under Article 92 and assign corrective action. Something to the tune of three straight Saturdays of battalion staff duty. Assign random shit details during the week in the meantime.

Response by Terry Wright made Feb 28 at 2017 7:44 PM

Terry Wright — Tue, 28 Feb 2017 19:44:21 -0500

Well my dad did two tours in Vietnam gorilla warfare twice he got throat punched and he taught all of us kids never told that man no but once that's all it took shut your mouth and have respect

Response by Cpl Matthew Martin made Mar 1 at 2017 6:05 PM

Cpl Matthew Martin — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 18:05:46 -0500

Break rocks with the disciplinary platoon!

Response by SFC Terry Murphy made Mar 2 at 2017 1:40 PM

SFC Terry Murphy — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:40:35 -0500

He is the problem, you are an E-5 Sergeant in the United States Army and you need to ask people on social media how to control your soldiers. If you can't control your soldiers, then your Squad Leader Platoon Sergeant, Platoon Leader or Company 1SG and Company Commander should not only back you up with UCMJ type action, but also need to teach you how to do your job.

Response by CPO Pascal Chagot made Mar 4 at 2017 10:28 AM

CPO Pascal Chagot — Sat, 04 Mar 2017 10:28:13 -0500

Run him till he pukes, then run him some more

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2017 1:06 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:06:43 -0400

Regulations are regulations! They signed up knowing they had to abide by a higher standard than civilians do. Follow it with a paper trail. Never to late to get em' out for failing to follow regulations. The Army is downsizing anyways.

Response by LCpl Johnny Carroll made Mar 21 at 2017 8:57 PM

LCpl Johnny Carroll — Tue, 21 Mar 2017 20:57:46 -0400

do it for him

Response by SGT Tom Schnepp made Mar 21 at 2017 11:05 PM

SGT Tom Schnepp — Tue, 21 Mar 2017 23:05:36 -0400

Take a dirty sock out of his locker shut down this throat.... Plant palm of my hand on the lower part of those nose. Then politely ask him to reconsider his answer !

Response by CPT Wes Marsh made Mar 22 at 2017 4:16 PM

CPT Wes Marsh — Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:16:42 -0400

Too many unknown variables in this scenario.

Response by Barbara Bruhn made Mar 24 at 2017 9:24 PM

Barbara Bruhn — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 21:24:02 -0400

Your ass an your unit pay

Response by Cpl Zach Wellborn made Apr 3 at 2017 4:47 AM

Cpl Zach Wellborn — Mon, 03 Apr 2017 04:47:27 -0400

Well I'm a big fan of punching people in the face. If he disobeyed a direct order, IN FRONT of everyone. An example has to be made instantly. The example should be so devastating that it will never happen again. Now hitting someone is a good way to make enemies so instead I'd recommend platoon wide punishment. Thanks to dipshit here, you're all in for a treat.....

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Apr 6 at 2017 5:24 PM

1SG Harold Piet — Thu, 06 Apr 2017 17:24:51 -0400

I would take him out of formation directly to the next higher in my chain of command and recommend calling MP to come confine this soldier till the AR 15 was ready.
. As a 1SG I never had it happen but I would have called the MP to come get him.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2017 11:58 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 23:58:47 -0400

The pen issue mightier than the sword. Start a paper trail

Response by 1SG Billye Jackson made Apr 14 at 2017 8:16 AM

1SG Billye Jackson — Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:16:31 -0400

Don't Know as it Never would have Happened in My Day.

Response by Sgt William Coffee made Apr 14 at 2017 4:36 PM

Sgt William Coffee — Fri, 14 Apr 2017 16:36:16 -0400

I would write him up for insubordination and refusing a direct order. Then request a summary court martial. After that I think the Gunny has the right idea.

Response by Mike Arienti made Apr 27 at 2017 10:36 AM

Mike Arienti — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:36:13 -0400

You remind them it's not within their rights to object. Then, you go back to your desk and write them up for violating UCMJ. When given an order, a solider has a choice to either follow it or be charged with insubordination.

Response by 1SG James Matthews made Apr 27 at 2017 11:41 AM

1SG James Matthews — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 11:41:32 -0400

Back in my day--61/81 if one of my troops refused to take off said sunglasses I would remove em for him and they would fall on the ground under my boot.

Response by SSG Scott Thelen made Apr 27 at 2017 1:18 PM

SSG Scott Thelen — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:18:40 -0400

You can recommend UCMJ action at any point when the soldier violates an article of the UCMJ. As NCOs, it is customary to provide a verbal counseling on the 1st offense, a written counseling on record for the 2nd offense, and another written counseling on record with a recommendation for UCMJ action on the 3rd offense. My advice is to seek the approval for UCMJ action with your superior BEFORE putting it on paper. The worst thing for your credibility is to recommend UCMJ and have it shot down.

Response by Sgt Darrell Woodcox made May 14 at 2017 9:48 AM

Sgt Darrell Woodcox — Sun, 14 May 2017 09:48:28 -0400

As a nco I would crush his glasses and smoke him/her until I got tired and then recommend him/her for a article 15

Response by SGT Bert Shamblin made May 20 at 2017 12:31 PM

SGT Bert Shamblin — Sat, 20 May 2017 12:31:14 -0400

Really?...what has happened to my beloved Army...you kick his ass out..after smoke the shit out of him and put his ass on extra duty mopping water in the motor pool while it's raining.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Oct 18 at 2017 3:06 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Wed, 18 Oct 2017 15:06:05 -0400

Shoot him.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Oct 18 at 2017 3:48 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Wed, 18 Oct 2017 15:48:25 -0400

You confiscate the sunglasses and tell the individual that those glasses will be placed with his civilian effects until he is done with basic training.

Response by SGT Mark Friedman made Oct 18 at 2017 4:42 PM

SGT Mark Friedman — Wed, 18 Oct 2017 16:42:15 -0400

The sunglasses are a violation of AR 670-1. By not removing them when instructed, he violated a lawful order.

Fry him with a nice heavy coating of UCMJ.... I agree the other commenter. FG article 15 with max amount of punishment. Destroying the glasses is not really a good moral boost to all. Keep it clean and try to be civil with misconduct.

Response by PFC Cedric Powell made Oct 19 at 2017 11:45 PM

PFC Cedric Powell — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 23:45:10 -0400

There shouldn't be much if any discussion. Have that soldier, TL, and SL stand fast after info has been given. Leadership failed the soldier, so pretty much, you get one, you get them all, EQUALLY.

Response by SGT Rex White made Nov 9 at 2017 10:42 AM

SGT Rex White — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 10:42:37 -0500

Make life hell till he goes awal

Response by SGT Matt Gaydou made Dec 12 at 2017 7:43 AM

SGT Matt Gaydou — Tue, 12 Dec 2017 07:43:43 -0500

More often in today’s army young soldiers feel it’s okay to disrespect NCO’s. The days of a private looking up to an E5 for guidance and leadership are slowly coming to an end. Unless higher really starts coming down hard on these kids, it’s never going to get better.

Response by SGT James King made Mar 15 at 2018 10:30 PM

SGT James King — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 22:30:32 -0400

How can you NOT??? He refused a DIRECT ORDER.

Response by MSG Louis Alexander made Mar 25 at 2018 8:07 PM

MSG Louis Alexander — Sun, 25 Mar 2018 20:07:14 -0400

Smok'em like a cheap cigar!

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 27 at 2018 9:51 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 27 Apr 2018 21:51:04 -0400

1. Yes you counsel them, not for listening, but for "not following orders". 2. I normally had some weekend "school of the soldier" during the month- they were offered either the ART-15 or the school. Most didn't want to lose the money.

Response by LTC Jeff Shearer made Jun 17 at 2018 6:43 AM

LTC Jeff Shearer — Sun, 17 Jun 2018 06:43:10 -0400

Man if the situation has made it that far the leadership has already made some mistakes, lots of mistakes. I would recommend he be brought to the front of the formation and shot in the back of the head. If this is the first time jackass has done something so insane, simply beat him until his brothers have to hold him up during the rest of formation.

That jackass would not have any time off for the next enlistment or two. That may be a little extreme but how in the hell do you reach that point where a PVT does to listen to his NCO. People dont get the fact NCOs are where the rubber meets the road.

Response by LTC Jeff Shearer made Jul 6 at 2018 9:35 PM

LTC Jeff Shearer — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 21:35:59 -0400

I love to talk about giving him the bat but the truth is much more simple and much more non violent. For starters extra duty and take money but finding somewhere else to dwell is very close. We were always very laid back but when an NCO or an O said do something by God it better get done. If this was an issue it would be a new guy because anyone else already had a firm understanding in our line of work we did not have time for silliness. I explained to some of my JR guys that problems dont get better in a combat zone. I would tell the guys our business is deadly serious, time is not a luxury we had. Luckily we did not have those problems however that individual would not have lasted long. I would have done my best to get this person a job at the local donut shop or shoe store because the Military did not need people like that and I did not like sending my problems to someone else.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jul 6 at 2018 11:24 PM

Maj John Bell — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 23:24:52 -0400

The only acceptable response to a lawful order is "immediate, intelligent, obedience."

Since I am an officer I'll frame in terms of how I as an officer handled a very similar case. In this case I want to know if there is some valid medical reason for his refusal, so the Marine has about 30 seconds of "convince me" time. In the case I dealt with a Marine refused an order from his PltSgt to extinguish a cigarette on a live fire range.

If there is no valid reason for the refusal, I ask the senior SNCO or NCO to step forward as a witness. And issue the order again.

If the Marine refuses again, there is no road back, no opportunity to change his mind I order the senior SNCO or NCO to place the Marine under arrest and to escort him to the Company CP. Take as many Marines as necessary to ensure his timely and safe arrival at the CP. The SNCO or NCO in charge of the detail will turn the Marine over to the First Sergeant or XO. The Marine is not to leave the orderly shack except to use the head or take a meal. In both cases he will be escorted by chasers.

The First Sergeant or XO will start the paperwork. In my commands, unlawful refusal of an order from an NCO or Officer was not handled "unofficially," through extra military instruction, or through article 15 Non-Judicial Punishment. The least a Marine who refuses a lawful order is looking at is a Summary Court Martial.

Response by SGT Leon Riege made Jul 24 at 2018 7:20 PM

SGT Leon Riege — Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:20:32 -0400

call the formation to attention right or left face,fwd march double time march don't tell them why rinse and repeat as needed a little extra pt wont hurt the troops and i you don't give a reason you wont get in trouble they will figure out every time hollywood is wearing his shades we run as for open insubordination i would get as far in their personal space as i could and say very quietly " report to tops office now "

Response by SGT David Lacer made Jul 30 at 2018 5:45 PM

SGT David Lacer — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:45:46 -0400

I was in 78- 84 had that problem I listened to what my first Sgt told me to do. I took him behind a duce and a half problem solved

Response by SGT Jd Cox made Apr 29 at 2019 11:36 PM

SGT Jd Cox — Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:36:08 -0400

Very simple. As an NCO, recommend Nonjudicial punishment (Article 15) to the Company commander. If the behavior continues, rinse, repeat. The Army functions on discipline and respect. If the soldier does not correct his behavior, max him out on article 15s, and chapter his ass out of the army.

Response by SFC Gualberto Gonzalez made May 9 at 2019 9:54 AM

SFC Gualberto Gonzalez — Thu, 09 May 2019 09:54:10 -0400

That is is clear insubordination or disobey lawful order, article15 ,counseling and more.

Response by SGT Joey Stumpf made Jun 21 at 2019 1:36 PM

SGT Joey Stumpf — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 13:36:14 -0400

Quote violation of 670-1. Cite the ar for disobeying a lawful order (I don't recall the ar). Recommend UCMJ. Once and they'll start listening to you.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2019 7:41 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:41:35 -0400

Failure to follow an order is definitely covered in UCMJ. Punitive article 92. Counsel them, provide reference for violation in said counseling and inform them of consequences. Also inform your supervisor so they are prepared. Its not about the sunglasses anymore, it's about the blatant disrespect for your authority.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2019 10:42 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Sep 2019 22:42:37 -0400

Oh lord. I thought my branch was supposed to be the soft one? Yeah we have some leniency with NCOs, but we still get tore up from the floor up if we pull something like that.

Response by SGT Charles Haney made Sep 12 at 2019 2:44 AM

SGT Charles Haney — Thu, 12 Sep 2019 02:44:57 -0400

Discipline

Response by SPC Greg Campbell made Sep 12 at 2019 8:41 PM

SPC Greg Campbell — Thu, 12 Sep 2019 20:41:32 -0400

we were SP4 heavy and light on E5s, so of course as a senior SP4 I/we were put in charge of details. 2 PFCs, 1 junior SP4 and this slick sleeve private. Top gave me instructions on what to do so off we go. start our work, myself included. suddenly ol slick sleeve decided to stop and watch us. told him to get back at it, even the other guys were ragging on him. fine, told him a couple more times to get to work. he says 'your not a NCO, you cant yell me what to do. Top came around the corner as he said that. nicest guy there was till you pissed him off. oh boy, it wasnt pretty.

Response by SFC Familia Gonzalez made Sep 13 at 2019 9:08 AM

SFC Familia Gonzalez — Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:08:16 -0400

This must be what you young guys call ‘bait’ on social media, because it can’t be a real thought provoking question. If it is, we’re all in deep Kimchi!

Response by SP5 Gary Smith made Sep 13 at 2019 3:39 PM

SP5 Gary Smith — Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:39:39 -0400

Such a dipshit question and dipshit answers.
You get the corporal to march him up to the first sergeant, report the infraction and carry on.

Response by SP5 Gary Smith made Sep 13 at 2019 3:43 PM

SP5 Gary Smith — Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:43:45 -0400

I wised off ONE TIME in basic. The next thing you know, I was being cussed out in a combination of Spanish, English and Tagalog by a five foot tall Filipino top who scared the absolute living shit out of me. Never did it again.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2019 6:18 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Sep 2019 18:18:46 -0400

Just quit being a pretend tough guy and accept that you’re actually a little cry baby bitch and some 18 year old kid challenged your authority and you did nothing about it

Response by SSG Grady Whitson made Sep 15 at 2019 11:58 AM

SSG Grady Whitson — Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:58:02 -0400

Take his sunglasses and crush them beneath your boot. Then smoke the shit out of him, lots of CQ duty on the weekend. Go old school I’ve done it many times to shit bag private’s.

Response by SSgt Scott Reynolds made Sep 22 at 2019 11:00 PM

SSgt Scott Reynolds — Sun, 22 Sep 2019 23:00:11 -0400

What kind of leader are you if you’re asking advice about this petty bullshit? Here’s my answer. (I’ll use USMC rank)
Me: Lcpl Schmuckatelli remove those fucking sunglasses from your face before I remove them and your head.
You can start a charge sheet or you can stop being a pussy and snatch this little bastard up and impose your authority on every single aspect of his miserable life. That kid would have first and last watch, every working party, run remedial PT and any other shit duty I could think of until he learned to exhibit some common sense and respect. Or you can continue to let them walk all over you. I’d seriously think about doing some leadership PME if I were you, you sound like you need it!

Response by SrA Brett Stratton made Sep 23 at 2019 3:26 PM

SrA Brett Stratton — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 15:26:17 -0400

If he refuses, I'd first ask if he has a medical waiver. If yes, then he can provide it and we're done.

If no, for any reason, I'd just swipe them off his face, toss them, and let them know they done goofed, driving home the fact they are in the military, not McDonald's: they CAN'T have it their way. After I'm done berating them, I make sure to look dead in their eyes and say, "Welcome to Hell."

Response by CPT Robert Holden made Sep 24 at 2019 2:48 PM

CPT Robert Holden — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:48:50 -0400

Push-ups or some similar punishment. They gave up being able to strike troops decades ago

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Oct 10 at 2019 8:20 AM

LCpl Cody Collins — Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:20:51 -0400

I served in the United States Marine Corps just short of 9 years all active duty and I can truly say that I have never seen a Marine blatantly disobey an order in any way shape form or fashion and live to tell about it.

Response by PO2 James Brown made Oct 30 at 2019 11:10 PM

PO2 James Brown — Wed, 30 Oct 2019 23:10:08 -0400

I got out when these YOUNG sweet things started picking up rate..
The bad thing was, working with the public in civ life I got to meet there "mommies & daddies".
Some real peace's of equipment..
After braking the glasses' have a very strong "talk" with it behind the door......

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2019 12:31 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 Oct 2019 00:31:43 -0400

So looking in 600-20 will not answer your question. Look in AR 670-1, para 3-10. It’s pretty clear the Soldier is wrong in this situation. He/she should receive a 4856 for failure to obey an NCO.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2019 6:37 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 Oct 2019 06:37:27 -0400

Bar to re-enlist

Response by PO1 Gerald Franklin made Oct 31 at 2019 8:45 AM

PO1 Gerald Franklin — Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:45:38 -0400

If solder do not learn to take orders in boot camp. They won't obey the orders in war, and the can get him or her and his squad killed.

Response by Cpl Mauri Wills made Oct 31 at 2019 10:48 PM

Cpl Mauri Wills — Thu, 31 Oct 2019 22:48:56 -0400

In this picture it is a Marine Drill Sergeant. When I was in the Corps they would have just knocked them off your head and crushed them. Now adays they have to escort the beligerent Marine to the Commander Officer for discipline. In todays Marine Corps the Sergeants are not allowed to touch the Marines no matter what. When I was in the Corps 1981 to 1988 I stood Receiving Duty as a Female Marine the new recruits learned real fast not to give me any crap or the Drill Instructions took them aside for a little one on one. This was the best way to teach discipline and respect. Now the leftists are too busy wanting us to hold their hands and not make it tough on them. This is the Marine Corps and we are the toughest of all. Be Proud to be a MARINE or go join one of the other social clubs.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Nov 1 at 2019 12:12 PM

SSG Shawn Mcfadden — Fri, 01 Nov 2019 12:12:17 -0400

This is too easy. Get in the Soldier's face, take the glasses off, drop them on the ground, and crush them. If they bitch, ask them if they want to take this up with the First Sergeant? They will say no, and you reply, I didn't think so. Transmissions ENDS.

Response by LTC Charles Lauderdale made Nov 2 at 2019 2:26 AM

LTC Charles Lauderdale — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 02:26:19 -0400

LTC C W Lauderdale I must have led a charmed life. Served from private -buck sergeant in cav and tank outfits (with the exception of three months detailed as an MP). Had only three out and out refusals. Solved two by offering each soldier a deal they could not refuse. The third was resolved behind a M-41 Walker Bulldog tank on the backside of the motor pool. Served as a LT - LTC in armor, infantry, and military police units. Only refusal was when serving as company commander of infantry unit in RVN. Soldier refused to take his tour on a listening post. Claimed Jesus came to him and told him to quit fighting. He completed his service after four years in USADB at Leavenworth. Contrary to what the newspapers reported, I did not tell the soldier to get his sorry butt out on that post and to take Jesus with him!

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2019 8:53 AM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 08:53:14 -0400

Refusal to obey a direct order.
Article fifteen.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2019 9:17 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 09:17:32 -0400

Of course you put it on paper. Build a folder on private scumbag. You can even have the MPs pick him up

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Nov 3 at 2019 1:01 AM

Cpl Ray Fernandez — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:01:34 -0500

I was taught early on in my enlistment that if you give an order you may need to use force to enforce that order. During Marine Combat Training our cadre had our squad leaders and fire team leaders in charge of issuing orders while we ran around the hills of Camp Pendleton. When a Marine decided to ignore an order his squad leader just gave him the squad leader just looked at the SSgt who was part of the Cadre as to what to do. The SSgt told him to kick his ass. It was entertaining for the rest of us. But realistically to lead you need a mix of trust, fear, and understanding to avoid having a subordinate ignore an order without good cause.

Response by SFC Michael W. made Nov 3 at 2019 1:30 AM

SFC Michael W. — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:30:00 -0500

4 letters...UCMJ
Simple as that.

Response by LCDR Joe Blanchard made Nov 3 at 2019 11:31 AM

LCDR Joe Blanchard — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 11:31:20 -0500

A military without discipline is a mob. Remind the soldier that he has been given a direct order then write him/her up, if the soldier continues to refuse. You have to be consistent in the discipline.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2019 12:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 12:21:01 -0500

I don't know if I should laugh, or absolutely be appalled at this freaking question being posted by a non-commissioned officer. The last time I looked you have 136 articles of the uniform code of military Justice to help you arrive at a decision of what to do with a non-compliant soldier. The fact that you're having to come to an online fourm to gain clarification on what your course of action should be, really stands to the conclusion that you probably don't need to be a non-commissioned officer.

Response by SFC Matthew Del Rossi made Nov 3 at 2019 7:33 PM

SFC Matthew Del Rossi — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 19:33:06 -0500

Do the paperwork.

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Nov 3 at 2019 9:31 PM

PO3 John Jeter — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 21:31:01 -0500

We had a few incidents back in my "stone age" days. The Petty Officer would give the man one chance to obey or face charges. The Captain had a short method to handle this type of case. 3 days bread and water. Period. If we were in port, the base brig handled it. At sea we had two cells to use if needed. Keeping a 24 hour watch on the offender was a bit of a pain and if the offender cooperated he was kept in a vacant troop space instead of the cramped cell. We seldom saw repeat offenders.

Response by CPT Edward Barr made Nov 3 at 2019 9:43 PM

CPT Edward Barr — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 21:43:39 -0500

You have multiple option here. First, you can self reflect, to see why you have reached the level of an NCO, but have not developed the respect of soldiers following your directions or orders. Also, how did you approach the subject? Was it confrontational from the start? Did you demand respect of your authority, without earning it.
Second option: A direct order does NOT have to include the words "direct order," or even just "order." Any time a direction is given by a higher rank, in authority, it is by UCMJ definition, an order. You can refer him for adjudication.
Third, and the one I would suggest as the best course of action: Take time for both to cool off. Then, take the soldier aside, and ask him why he feels he did not have to follow your direction. Then, after listening; explain why his answers are likely not acceptable. Then explain the punishment potential. Furthermore, explain that you would rather work with them, than against them. Lastly, tactfully, but firmly, get him to understand; that your RANK, not you as a person, will always win. That is, as long as you are correct, and your orders are legal.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Nov 4 at 2019 5:15 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Mon, 04 Nov 2019 17:15:15 -0500

A recommendation for UCMJ action is not required for cases like this. LOR to account for the original offense and any other refusals for the same offense is more the way to go. If memory severs me correctly, three offenses leads to a UCMJ action ( Article 15/court marshal) can recommended.

Response by SP5 Paul Nipper made Nov 5 at 2019 9:15 AM

SP5 Paul Nipper — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 09:15:05 -0500

Remind the errant soldier that they are not authorized to have the article, ask them if they were aware of the policy, and if not, comply, and if they were, ask the reasoning for the action. If the reason was invalid, advise to remove, and if not, let them be accountable for their insubordination, and breaking policy

Response by SP5 Paul Nipper made Nov 5 at 2019 9:21 AM

SP5 Paul Nipper — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 09:21:23 -0500

We had a soldier refuse the issue of a TA50, to be transferred to the Stockade. The NCOIC told us to hold, while he went to advise the Colonel who issued the field grade article 15. The Colonel told the NCO, not to issue the article 15, because he was transferring the errant soldier th Leavenworth.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2019 1:11 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 13:11:37 -0500

In my professional opinion as a former Non-Commission Officer of the United States Marine Corps, it wouldn’t have happened, especially in formation. In over 21 years in the Marine Corps I have never had a problem with any of my Marines in formation. Per say, whatever a leader does or doesn’t do will definitely reflect the character relationship of his people. Discipline is a must and cannot be overlooked by a simple infraction.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2019 5:27 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 05:27:27 -0500

Doesn’t this simply fall under failure to obey a lawful order? Forgive me for not knowing the regulation but I know that’s a thing.

Response by Sgt James Gross made Nov 6 at 2019 5:05 PM

Sgt James Gross — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:05:43 -0500

I would take his sunglasses off for him and mangle them in front of the squad or whoever is present so that it will serve as an example for the others. If he repeats it then go for insubordination.

Response by Sgt James Gross made Nov 6 at 2019 5:09 PM

Sgt James Gross — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:09:05 -0500

I would remove the sunglasses for him, then mangle them in front of the squad or whoever is present. I would use it as an example of what happens when and order is disobeyed. If he or she wants to repeat it then go for insubordination.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2019 5:20 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:20:09 -0500

Assuming you've done your homework to find out if there is something seriously wrong with the Soldier (depression, maritial issues, etc) that needs to be addressed, and since you can't physically hurt Soldiers anymore, you have to hit them the only two other places it hurts more...their time and money. If that doesn't work, kick them out right? Wrong. Everyone can be useful in the military, even if they only serve as an example of what happens when you don't so the right thing. By all means, make their process out of the military as long and excruciating as possible. It's the least they can do on their way out.

Response by SSG Joshua Johnson made Nov 7 at 2019 12:28 PM

SSG Joshua Johnson — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 12:28:35 -0500

I've been out for a while, but can't you just drop him until his desire to challenge you goes away? My humble suggestion is to tell that fucker to meet you after closing formation with 2 full canteens and have him do sprints and then chug the entire bottle and repeat for a while. That may fix his hearing.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2019 3:40 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 15:40:16 -0500

There are regulation for wearing sunglasses with a uniform for each branch. As a NCO if you put you hands on the person this big trouble for your self What need to be done is if the person does not follow instructions they do have a name tag on there uniform, find there command that address the issue that way I guarantee once there comand finds out about this it will be address right away

Response by CPO Arthur Weinberger made Nov 8 at 2019 8:41 PM

CPO Arthur Weinberger — Fri, 08 Nov 2019 20:41:32 -0500

spank him

Response by LCpl Sandy Moran made Nov 9 at 2019 2:16 PM

LCpl Sandy Moran — Sat, 09 Nov 2019 14:16:31 -0500

In the sunglass example. Ask if he has a med.pass for the glasses in not why he chose to wear them in formation. Then ask if he thought he was better then the rest why he didn't want too be part of a unit. AND give the formation extra PT but not him. If he refuses To remove them. All this is told in front of the formation. Your reasoning is he is exempt and doesn't have to have extra PT. Then let him know if it happens again he gets an article 15. Or just give the article 15 after repeated orders too take the off. your call.

Response by PO2 Michael Martin made Nov 9 at 2019 4:31 PM

PO2 Michael Martin — Sat, 09 Nov 2019 16:31:51 -0500

Great question. I can only speak from back in the day but, You would never think of disobeying an order. I cant tell you how many times I got pulled in and got pushed around, literally. Into lockers the floor. You didn't dare refuse anything if you knew whats good for you.
Now days I can't really wrap my head around how soft the new military has gotten. I've heard that now you can even ask for a "time out" !!!!!!!!!!!!! A time out!!!! what the hell , these people aren't6 yrs old and have to sit in the corner...... or are they???? I dont have a good answer for you because we never had that problem when I was in...... good luck

Response by SN Robbie Malone made Nov 9 at 2019 5:35 PM

SN Robbie Malone — Sat, 09 Nov 2019 17:35:10 -0500

It is funny, if they want to wear that why be in the military, might as well be a civilian. Don't they know what the oath is, you are suppose to obey people that are your commanders, DI, officer etc. They are disobeying a direct order, i looked it up on a goggle search it is an Article 92 in the UCMJ.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2019 7:45 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Nov 2019 19:45:40 -0500

It wouldn't hurt to actually counsel your soldier. Inform said service member to see you after formation to address this concern. From the front leaning rest. There are a number of reasons why the glasses may be on (lost auth. pair/ migraine, recovering from eye strain). Going nuclear (UCMJ) isn't always best for your team chemistry.

Response by SPC Andrew Murray made Nov 10 at 2019 5:40 AM

SPC Andrew Murray — Sun, 10 Nov 2019 05:40:59 -0500

I love how these sorts of questions always bring out the tough guys who believe that bullying is the same as leadership.

Response by SPC Franklin McKown made Nov 11 at 2019 1:17 PM

SPC Franklin McKown — Mon, 11 Nov 2019 13:17:18 -0500

THAT question almost REQUIRES an illegal response, in COMBAT ARMS positions. I was a night person ,BUT I also would not wear them in formations,because I KNEW BETTER and the response FROM DOING so ,would be a destruction of property. IT IS the ARMY.

Response by LTC Russ Smith made Nov 17 at 2019 2:08 PM

LTC Russ Smith — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 14:08:37 -0500

Disobeying a lawful order. Article 15.

Response by SPC Donn Sinclair made Nov 17 at 2019 6:51 PM

SPC Donn Sinclair — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:51:15 -0500

Mind you, I was in a long time ago, but back then, a couple things would've happened. If GI'ing the dumpster didn't make a dent, the individual was assigned to "laundry detail." The soldier would report after hours to the supply room. Waiting there would be several cadre who'd administer an "attitude adjustment." Laundry bags would be stacked against the walls to prevent injury should anybody accidentally bump into them. Don't know if you could do that now, but back in the day, it worked.

Response by SSG Harper Peterson made Nov 18 at 2019 12:28 PM

SSG Harper Peterson — Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:28:22 -0500

After getting past the fact that Marines are pictures and the question refers to soldiers, you have the ignorant subordinate drop and continue doing push-ups, flutter kicks, mountain climbers, planks, over and over during what will be an extremely long formation. Some people only understand through physical examples of learning. As “wall-to-wall” counselings are deemed barbaric nowadays this serves as a great first step. Charge sheets, njps, all too harsh of punishment for the ‘crime.’ He’s making a statement in front of others, so are you!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2019 9:18 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:18:33 -0500

There is what I think and what I know.

What I think is that the Soldier is testing this NCO, and he/she needs to pass the test. Backing down is not an option. If I get in my way-back machine to my E-5 days, I think my (then-less developed) creative juices would get flowing. The immediate thing would be that those sunglasses would be removed from the face of the offending party, and placed in a secure combination locked place. Then a series of feats would be performed to earn the combination numbers, some of which that would require the cooperation of the squad - as well as some, shall we say, alone time with them. A little land-nav scavenger hunt, a hike and climb to the top of a remote fire tower, some Where's Waldo in the motor pool... stuff like that. I would imagine that mind-sets would be properly adjusted at the end of the Seven Labors of Specialist Johnny Cage.

What I know is that in any formation that I have ever been a part of, SGT Healy would not be alone in dealing with this box of rocks. Every NCO in that formation would get in joe's ass and explain it to him in terms he'd understand. Indeed, it is quite likely the Specialist Mafia would send a couple of Turks over to explain it to him in the next 24 hours as well.

No officer in their right mind would go near this. Even if you go the PC route and document this incident on paper for some more senior leader(s) to handle, the right thing to do is keep this as NCO business. If for some reason this travels remotely near the PL or Company CP, you have admitted failure as a junior leader. 1SG Healy, should he get wind of such a fiasco, would be spending at least as much time on the NCO involved as the offender.

Response by Maj John Bell made Nov 29 at 2019 6:18 PM

Maj John Bell — Fri, 29 Nov 2019 18:18:31 -0500

I'm not familiar with Army lingo, so I'll speak Marine.
_I would ask if he understood my order. If not I would explain it to him and re-issue the order. If he did not comply...
_I would ask if there was some legitimate reason for him to refuse to comply. If there was not a legitimate reason...
_I would inform him that refusal to follow a legal order could result in a NJP or a court martial and that the effects of that court martial could range from extra military instruction, restriction to quarters, loss of rank and loss of pay all the way to confinement in the brig, a bad conduct discharge and loss of all veteran benefits. Then
_I would ask if he was ready to face those consequences. Then
_I would let it rain fire and $#!* and hopefully the command would bounce his ass after a very public court martial. There ain't no stopping the train now.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2019 12:00 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 00:00:12 -0500

This guy is circling the drain and has issues. The Army may not be in his future much longer. Article 15, eventual discharge either by ETS or under less than honorable circumstances unless he suddenly sees the light. The Army isn't for everyone.

Response by MSgt Frank Askins made Dec 22 at 2019 1:26 PM

MSgt Frank Askins — Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:26:36 -0500

A couple of observations for you....
1. As a sergeant, you should not have to ask that question in this forum. Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with your rank, authority, and responsibilities.
2. Read this..... https://www.thebalancecareers.com/punitive-articles-of-the-ucmj-3356858 and if you still have questions, talk to the JAG office.
3. You might want to inquire whether or not the individual has a medical condition that requires them to wear sunglasses (photophobia).
4. You apparently don't have the respect of that individual and I don't need to know the reason(s) for that. Regardless, he/she should show the proper respect for your rank and uniform.
5. Not really enough information for anyone to provide you with a 100% suggestive course to correct this situation.
6. Grow a pair and lead!

What Happens When You Fail to Obey a Military Order or Regulation

Articles 77 - 134 of the UCMJ are known as the punitive articles. Here is information about Article 92—Failure to obey order or regulation.

Response by SGT Peter Paden made Jan 3 at 2020 11:12 PM

SGT Peter Paden — Fri, 03 Jan 2020 23:12:42 -0500

Years ago SGT would of crushed glasses into his sorry head now adays it is not PC to touch your troops. Maybe a time out would be needed

Response by SrA Brett Stratton made Jan 12 at 2020 2:42 PM

SrA Brett Stratton — Sun, 12 Jan 2020 14:42:00 -0500

First I'd give him one last chance. I'd take the glasses, toss them behind me, and then get in his face and speak these words: "I'm not giving you a choice. You never had that option when you signed that dotted line. Follow orders." If they still are beligerent, yeah, I'm writing them up and letting them feel the full brunt of the UCMJ. During the whole time, I'll also drive the point home how they're in the military and they are property, not people. If that makes them sad, we got therapists they can go see about it. Until then, they are expected to follow orders, but if they intend to keep flaunting orders, they can do so inside a jail cell.
Works every time!

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2020 7:40 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jan 2020 19:40:23 -0500

Article 92—Failure To Obey Order

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Feb 1 at 2020 1:40 PM

Cpl Jeff Ruffing — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 13:40:32 -0500

I would dismiss that Pvt from formation. Have him stand in the back of the formation until such time as to the end of the formation. Does he have a medical chit that requires him to wear them? I do know that soldiers that have corrective eyewear can get a pair of sunglasses as well. They are no stylist in any way. If he has a medical chit for them, then he/she is out of uniform as well as disobeying an order. He/she also has muttered under there breathe ( come on, we’ve all done that) which is another charge as well. I would not physically try to remove the sunglasses because that can open up another whole can of worms and you do not want to lose your professionalism or your bearing in front of other troops. I would write this person up and recommend UCMJ actions.

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Feb 3 at 2020 7:05 PM

LCpl Michael Cappello — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 19:05:55 -0500

I will assume that the Army has a little thing call "disobedience of a lawful order". Stand him up before "The Man". You are building warriors, not wimps.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2020 8:03 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 20:03:28 -0500

As much as beating his face in would be lovely, I feel JAG frowns upon this.

I would definitely formally counsel him and make him do some sort of public remedial training (like forcing him to teach a company level block of instruction on AR670-1 or such). If he wants to be wild I’ll after that I would definitely push for NJP.

Response by SSG Clayton Lam made Feb 21 at 2020 2:14 PM

SSG Clayton Lam — Fri, 21 Feb 2020 14:14:53 -0500

Write a counseling statement and give a corrective action that relates to the incident. Allow the corrective action to take away their time; for example if they show up in a messed up uniform or wrong uniform, during the weekend or time off have them report to the Staff Duty desk or somewhere every few hours in a different uniform and ensure you told them it has to be worn to standard. If, after that they do not listen you may have to recommend them for an Article 15. I hope it does not come to that, but sometimes when they do want they want to do, you have to do what you need to do.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2020 12:34 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Feb 2020 12:34:41 -0500

My recommendation to any NCO is to document. Nothing is worth getting emotional about. The pen is mightier than the sword. If you dont document then you might as well be quiet because being making a whole bunch of noise cussing and fussing will definitely be amusing to those watching but to the Soldier he's just waiting for you to cool down waiting for the next opportunity to break an Army regulation. You will be known as the weak NCO allowing your Soldiers to do whatever they want. Then your going to PCS and that Soldier will be someone else's problem! No such thing as likership, only leadership! Lead or get outta the way!

Response by SP5 Derick Johnsohne made Feb 23 at 2020 5:24 PM

SP5 Derick Johnsohne — Sun, 23 Feb 2020 17:24:17 -0500

when did this man's force become a democracy ? :D

Response by SSgt Paula L Glover made Feb 23 at 2020 6:30 PM

SSgt Paula L Glover — Sun, 23 Feb 2020 18:30:34 -0500

Ask again. If he still refuses; put him/her on report.

Response by MAJ Alan Montgomery made Feb 24 at 2020 12:44 PM

MAJ Alan Montgomery — Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:44:27 -0500

We use to put them on point during patrol - solved all kinds of attitude

Response by MAJ Alan Montgomery made Feb 24 at 2020 12:52 PM

MAJ Alan Montgomery — Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:52:48 -0500

We would put them on point during patrol, solved all sorts of attitude problems. In this new Army, I'd start with Sergent's punishment, escalate to Article 15, and if he or she still had hearing issues move on to a summary court. I have no use for those in the new generation who have issues following the lawful orders of those appointed above them, whether they are in the direct chain of command or not. I'm not putting one soldier's life in jeopardy for a slacker's or dead beat attitude who won't follow orders or instructions given him by his superiors and the Army shouldn't have any use for them either.

Response by MAJ Montgomery Granger made Feb 24 at 2020 8:35 PM

MAJ Montgomery Granger — Mon, 24 Feb 2020 20:35:36 -0500

This is not a soldier, and doesn't deserve to be called one, nor his/her rank. They have abdicated their enlistment oath and are guilty of fraudulent enlistment. Counsel them and then get them OUT.

Response by SFC Francisco Roman made Feb 25 at 2020 10:21 AM

SFC Francisco Roman — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 10:21:42 -0500

Remove him or her from formation,explain to he or her that if he can't no fallow instruction he or her can't be a part of a team. If there's a problem with the order he or she most reports to first sergeant office. No one will disrespect the platoon sergeant or the squad leaders. That's being nice about it in today's Arms force's..

Response by SP5 Douglas Murphy made Feb 25 at 2020 2:07 PM

SP5 Douglas Murphy — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 14:07:46 -0500

Front-leaning rest for 4 hours (or more). Destroy the sunglasses.

Response by Sgt Jerry Genesio made Feb 25 at 2020 4:30 PM

Sgt Jerry Genesio — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 16:30:28 -0500

You say: "Son, all I've ever asked of my soldiers is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help you, because inside every soldier there is a good American trying to get out." (Full disclosure: Paraphrase of a quote attributed to an anonymous Marine Colonel in Vietnam and used in the movie Full Metal Jacket.)

Response by SGT Joseph Dutton made Feb 25 at 2020 11:28 PM

SGT Joseph Dutton — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 23:28:11 -0500

You haven't reviewed your UCMJ and Manual of Court Martial very well. One you, ask he/she and doesn't comply, then you give a demand and still don't comply. Then issue a Direct Lawful Order. If subject still does not comply then put the said subject on report under ARTICLE 15 under the UCMJ for disobeying a direct lawful order. There is two types of Direct Lawful Orders. 1. Is verble & 2. Is Written. Oh! don't be under the misconception that only a higher ranking person can only issue a Direct Lawful Order. Lower ranking can issue the same to a higher ranking person.

Response by Sgt Peter Schlesiona made Feb 26 at 2020 8:49 AM

Sgt Peter Schlesiona — Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:49:23 -0500

I can only tell you how I handled it. Scenario: less than 4 months since I returned from ‘Nam. E5, but there was only a section of the barracks set aside for E5s. Just before lights out one night, observed a Corporal tell a PFC to sweep down the center of the barracks. The PFC refused and walked away. The Corporal then picked someone else for the job.
My first action was to belay the order to the second guy. My second action was to tell the Corporal to meet me in the E5 section in 2 minutes. My third action was to tell the first guy (1) Say or to something else to give me an excuse and you will be charged with insubordination and (2) Now grab the broom and sweep or you can sweep with the handle shoved up your ass.
I then went back to the Corporal and made it clear that if I saw him take that kind of crap from a PFC again, I’d see what I could do to make him a Lance Corporal again.

Response by PO2 John Driskill made Feb 26 at 2020 11:51 AM

PO2 John Driskill — Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:51:59 -0500

Goodbye, hello brig or stockade, which ever the case may be.

Response by LCpl Rich Baker made Feb 28 at 2020 8:19 AM

LCpl Rich Baker — Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:19:59 -0500

Well we all know that it isn't concerning MARINES for we have measures to deal with this an FNG (rank doesn't matter) be walking Point, guaranteed that it cease ! Sf.

Response by SSG Alfred Woods made Feb 28 at 2020 8:09 PM

SSG Alfred Woods — Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:09:32 -0500

Well, it could be that the soldier has a medical reason for wearing the sunglasses. If that is the case, the soldier should have informed his chain of command, for the reason he\she is wearing sunglasses. if that is not the case. then, yes, have the soldier to remove his\her sunglasses. If the soldier refuses to do so, then informative counseling would be the next thing to consider, keeping in mind, the corrective actions, must be in line with correcting the actions of the soldier.

Response by SSG Alfred Woods made Feb 28 at 2020 8:21 PM

SSG Alfred Woods — Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:21:43 -0500

Well, there could be medical reasons for the soldier wearing the sunglasses. If that is the case, then the chain of command should have been aware of it. If that's not the case, then counseling may be in order, followed with corrective measures to correct his\her actions. Keeping in mind, good communications is always a must and at not time, should any soldier place his\her hands on another...

Response by CW3 David Covey made Mar 2 at 2020 12:29 PM

CW3 David Covey — Mon, 02 Mar 2020 12:29:18 -0500

While stationed in Germany back in 1987 I was a Motor Sgt and Squad leader. A Bn Organization Day gala was scheduled and as a bn directive our commander put out that the company was being bussed to Bn and no POV's were allowed. Upon arriving my 1SG an myself walked to the on post Burger King and found one of my PFC's in the drive thru in his car. We walked up and told him to report to us when he was finished. Upon arrival back at Bn the 1SG ordered him to hand over the keys to his car, which the young PFC refused. After several minutes of explaining that he was risking non-judicial punishment and he would be talking to the Commander he finally told the 1SG that he would give me his keys but not the 1SG. LOL.. He handed me the keys and I passed them to the 1SG.
Upon return to our kaserne he was given a Company Grade Article 15 and had his driving privilege's revoked for 6 months, during which time he dismantled the car to restore it and the car never saw the road again..

Response by GySgt Marc Dickerson made Mar 7 at 2020 4:35 PM

GySgt Marc Dickerson — Sat, 07 Mar 2020 16:35:44 -0500

March him up to command office, tell the offender to have a seat, and fill out a formal charge sheet. Tell admin you wish to speak to the senior enlisted at admin level. Company Gunny, 1stSgt, SgtMaj, etc. Let them know the situation, tell them your plans to press charges, and ask them their opinion. I'm sure this will get worked out real quick.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2020 1:22 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 01:22:52 -0400

You can either yell and scream and make a scene. Or take the professional route, inform the soldier that since they do feel the need to respect an NCO, you'll be counseling and recommending them for UCMJ. Then, go grab your next up NCO, fill them in, find the Article, or get with legal if you can't and begin the process. The over the top displays only go so far, and now days soldiers know you can't put hands on them anyway. So save yourself the stress, and take the easy way, counsel and recommend they lose time and money. My opinion anyway.

Response by SMSgt John Lemon made May 4 at 2020 11:41 AM

SMSgt John Lemon — Mon, 04 May 2020 11:41:20 -0400

In 2000 I was TDY to Kuwait Int'l for airlift support. I was an E-7 and acting first shirt for the small detachment of airmen at the base. We were getting cargo ready to go on a C-130 bound for Bahrain. I asked the A1C to make sure he measured the height of the pallet so that we would know it would fit on the ramp. He brushed me off and when he tried to put it on the ramp it was two inches too high. I didn't yell at him. I just looked at him and asked, " So I guess you didn't do as i asked you to do. You didn't measure it." He didn't answer but looked at the ground. I told him, I didn't get these stripes from a cracker jack box. Now, I want you to tear down that pallet until you get it to the required height. Measure it again and next time I ask you to do something, then you better do it or you will be breaking down the pallet again." At the time I had 18 years of service and the airman had three. However, i was a reservist and he was active duty. Over the years I met many active duty who discounted our service because we were reservists. Of course I met many who told us, "I'd go to war with you any time."

Response by SMSgt John Lemon made May 4 at 2020 12:00 PM

SMSgt John Lemon — Mon, 04 May 2020 12:00:23 -0400

In 2000, I was deployed to Kuwait. We were port dawgs and worked out of Kuwait Int'l. We were getting a pallet of cargo ready to go on a C-130. I noticed that it seemed to high (maximum height on a pallet for a C-130 was 96") So I asked the airman to measure it. He blew me off and said it would fit. Well, he didn't measure it and guess what, it was two inches too high. I didn't get mad, I just told the airman to take the pallet back to the yard and break it down until it was 96 inches tall. I told him I didn't get my stripes (E-7) out of a cracker jack box. So when I tell you to measure a pallet then I'm doing for good reason." Well he took the straps off the pallet and broke down the pallet until he had the right height. We loaded the cargo and I think he was a little bit humbled for the experience. He was an A1C (E-3) with about 3 years in service. I was a MSgt (E-7) with 18 years in service and about a dozen deployments be hind me. The one thing that was a problem was that I was a reservist and he was active duty. Over the years I met many active duty who discounted our knowledge and professionalism just because we were reservists. Of course I met many who were just the opposite. We were on an exercise called Patriot Partner where the active duty guys told us, "We'll go to war with you guys any time anywhere."

Response by CPO Albert Kennison made May 30 at 2020 7:11 PM

CPO Albert Kennison — Sat, 30 May 2020 19:11:43 -0400

As a noncom you handle it at your level. If you can't handle insubordination, then maybe your unit can find someone who can. Stop asking stupid questions, and earn those stripes.

Response by PFC Anthony Bruce made May 31 at 2020 2:07 AM

PFC Anthony Bruce — Sun, 31 May 2020 02:07:35 -0400

Are they prescription glasses? If so no such thing as unauthorized. I was told 1 time to take off mine, I refused and said they were prescription. Same NCO told me again, my Platoon Sargeant steped in this time and told the NCO that they were prescription and to leave me alone.

Response by SGT Michael Raymond made Jun 1 at 2020 10:34 AM

SGT Michael Raymond — Mon, 01 Jun 2020 10:34:45 -0400

Response by SGT Damon Garland made Sep 16 at 2020 7:28 PM

SGT Damon Garland — Wed, 16 Sep 2020 19:28:47 -0400

Depending on the soldier, it honestly varied. My trouble makers, I was roughshod on. Always started by explaining, why it had to be done, other than top says so. if they still refused it would escalate, unfortunately.

Response by SGT Michael Boston made Aug 5 at 2021 3:20 PM

SGT Michael Boston — Thu, 05 Aug 2021 15:20:31 -0400

In this situation situation, UCMJ, Need to be done to the max Allowable for the change(s) filed. Even more so, if this soldier is a problem child. Make an example out of him/her and all else, to send a clear message. This will not be tolerated. Once the cancer spreads, it will be hell getting it cut out.

Response by SGT Erick Holmes made Sep 4 at 2021 4:53 PM

SGT Erick Holmes — Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:53:07 -0400

Normally you would take them to the woodline and have a corrective training session. Add a few years and now everyone has rights so you just have keep doing counseling statements and any other paperwork and hope for the best

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2021 8:49 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Sep 2021 08:49:11 -0400

Take them to the tree line

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Sep 6 at 2021 5:52 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Mon, 06 Sep 2021 17:52:18 -0400

Company Gunny was the man, lol.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Sep 6 at 2021 8:15 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Mon, 06 Sep 2021 20:15:11 -0400

Have to say back in my day you’d be invited into the woods at French Creek and your manhood tested. A rare event because Marines follow directions, but there’s the odd asshole. It was just understood, I grew up with some guys I thought were true tough guys, but nothing like I saw in a fleet unit. Some if these guys were scary, this coming from just a normal guy. But there was usually respect given and taken, not much bs at all, fuck up the Company Gunny would be waiting.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made May 7 at 2022 2:32 PM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Sat, 07 May 2022 14:32:14 -0400

Take Him & His Entire Squadron Out For An Exceptionally Long Hike......
During One Of Their Days Off.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 7 at 2022 11:19 PM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 07 May 2022 23:19:12 -0400

The standard is immediate, intelligent obedience. I'd ask "why not?" If the answer doesn't fall into the category of intelligent (there's a damn good reason), write him up.

In my opinion, direct refusal of an order without good reason should go to field grade NJP in formation on the parade deck, with the entire command present. The knot head should get max'd out. If he refuses NJP, jump right to a special court martial and bounce his ass.

Response by SGT Jared Lopez made Jun 2 at 2022 9:19 AM

SGT Jared Lopez — Thu, 02 Jun 2022 09:19:50 -0400

The corrective action used to be called wall to wall counseling back in the day! Lol

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Sep 5 at 2022 1:30 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Mon, 05 Sep 2022 13:30:27 -0400

Office hours, take a rank, reduce pay, restrict to barracks, shitty performance review. Rinse and repeat until he cycles out or is dismissed from service, then he gets a shitty General discharge. Only seen this happen once but they hustled his ass out, no need or room for him, but they stuck it to him until he was discharged.