What do you guys think of current Army promotions (automatic) vs those who actually strive day and night for stripes (to be a real leader)?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 15:03:11 -0400

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 3:06 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 15:06:30 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member what promotions are automatic? If you are referring to E1 to E4 those are advancements not promotions and do not require a board.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 3:09 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 15:09:58 -0400

Beyond E-4 I've never seen an "automatic" promotion. In some cases I've even seen E-3s get boarded for promotion to E-4.

Do I think the promotion system is broken? Yes. I've seen a lot of people get promoted based only on the fact that they can max a PT test or memorize a book while others who were definitely more deserving were passed up because they couldn't do those things.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 3:14 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 15:14:19 -0400

Not sure what is automatic. But I will admit that the active duty board can be B.S. depending on the unit and who held the board. I work with a guy, says he was a ranger, no reason not to believe him but according to him for his SGT board the only question they asked him was the ranger creed or something like that. What the heck, when I was at Ft. Hood I had 16 troops in my squad. 3 went to the board and we had 12 pages of stuff that the CSM put out for them to know.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 3:25 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 15:25:02 -0400

From PVT to SPC, you are ADVANCED, not PROMOTED. And, depending on the MOS, trying to get promoted to SGT and above, one has to strive day and night and three times on Sundays to meet the cut-off scores. But, doing that in order to get promoted does not make a real leader. Taking care of your people day and night and three times on Sundays and getting the mission done, that's being a leader.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 3:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 15:43:01 -0400

I've been in for about six years now and that doesn't compare to a lot of others before me representing this uniform but I've seen a lot of Soldiers with different jobs that have very low promotion points or even automatic 39 to get promoted while others work very hard just to barely become a buck Sergeant. I happen to be in a MOS for my series that usually has a high promotion point count in order to picked up. I consider ourselves lucky right now as the points are hovering in the 565 range which is pretty low (lowest I've seen in years) considering our MOS is usually maxed out to 798. The issue I'm seeing is that "usually"a lot of people who have a high promotion point requirements work very hard to try to max out each section in the PPW while those who have low point requirements or even automatic 39 don't really even try. I know not everyone is like that and some of those who do get picked up at low scores or automatic are outstanding leaders who filled those positions perfectly.

I'm in the 15 series and unfortunately I have one of the small handful MOS's (15G) that hardly anyone ever gets picked up in. I am by all means not a super Soldier or perfect one at that but I try to improve what I can to meet the requirements because I know I'm ready to be put in that position. Some of the Soldiers don't seem to try because they know their points are low and are already expected to be "given" stripes. Now I could always improve PT to get a higher score but it just doesn't seem right to see an endless amount of Soldiers given hand outs for a higher position and be one of the worse leaders in service. Some of those MOS's retention are so low that they either have automatic 39 promotion, reclass, get kicked out or flat out ETS which in turn requires the Army to prematurely promote the next person under and on top of that....the next person to get picked up was most likely under horrible leadership that taught them absolutely nothing.

Since their previous leadership taught them nothing, they in turn (majority of the time but not always) give them the exact leadership because that's all they know and sadly sometimes don't even change themselves for the better.

Then shortly after that, the cycle continues and the wheel gets "reinvented" once again. It seems unfair when Soldiers careers are on the line and at the same time waste the Army's time and money as a whole. Some Soldiers have to strive to max out every section (weapons qualification, PT, awards, military schools, online training, civilian education, etc.) in the PPW in order to barely make the cut-off score while some really don't have to do anything (maybe a single low score PT test) to get picked up. Some units don't even let their Soldiers go to "any" type of schools or even merit awards to those who truly accomplished something (downgraded awards or even no awards at all) to help progress their careers which can waste years of experience depending how long they're assigned to that unit. What I see that is an issue is that most of these Soldiers who get picked up on low scores are expected hand outs, might not even know how to do their job, don't even know how to lead or support their Soldiers beneath them which can lead to possible toxic leadership, kill morale, failure on unit readiness and flat out kill Soldiers positive experiences.

I know the promotion systems throughout all branches in the military are not perfect but there always room for improvement and logical understanding to make it better and to actually promote those who will give their Soldiers a positive lasting impression and for them to pass on the Army Values to not only improve themselves but to also make the next generation of Soldiers even better than today.

What I would like to hear from all of you currently serving and have served their honest, blunt, mature opinion on the matter and share some possible insights for those having a hard time to meet their promotion requirements (such as myself) and what they would like to see improved in the promotion system in the future.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 4:02 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 16:02:48 -0400

If by automatic you mean Command List Integration (CLI) it is still not automatic. You still need to meet schooling requirements and TIG and TIS. Without BLC you cannot pin on Sergeant.
It is there for a reason and it works. If Soldiers non deserving of promotion get promoted it is on us as Leaders, it is not the Soldier receiving the promotion. If a Soldier meets the TIG and TIS requirement and has attended BLC and is still not ready to become a Sergeant (if say the points drop to 39) then the Commanding Officer can remove him from CLI, all he/she has to do is circle no. And if after 6 years you still cannot make points at 565, you are hurting in many areas, not just one or two. There is three areas in points we control completely to be promoted in a semi-centralized board. APFT, weapons and correspondence courses. With just those three areas maxed out you would be over 400 points.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made May 23 at 2017 4:29 PM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Tue, 23 May 2017 16:29:38 -0400

Despite my best efforts, I always was passed over.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 5:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 17:49:43 -0400

I read your response, and I agree that it sucks for those in over/at-strength MOSs.

As far as automatic promotions, I'm not sure if you are referring to CLI or (informally) Star MOS promotions, albeit they both play into each other. The Army is more about numbers, and less about quality. Not saying quality doesn't matter, it just isn't the highest priority in a career field that needs warm bodies to keep the machine running. A Soldier on CLI can ONLY get promoted "automatically" if the shortage in that MOS is drastic (STAR MOS); meaning, they've promoted EVERYONE else in that MOS who was eligible, properly boarded, and scored the bare minimum on the APFT, yet the Army still needed to fill that MOS with more SGTs/SSGs.

It can definitely seem unfair when you are in a slow promoting MOS, and have to watch Soldiers practically fresh out of AIT get promoted in their respective STAR MOS, before you do in yours, which may have been 798 for years. That's when most Soldiers look to sacrifice job satisfaction for career progression. Meaning, you love your current job, but promotions will come extremely slow, so you look to reclass to an under strength MOS to be promoted sooner, such as 35L (shameless plug) :D

Lastly, the accumulation of promotion points does not mean a good leader. Even CLI Soldiers have promotion point eligible items in their record (APFT, Marksmanship, etc). However, promotion point conversion doesn't matter UNTIL a Soldier has been boarded. Therefore, since a CLI Soldier hasn't been boarded for one reason or another, they are only authorized to have a grand total of 39 points for SGT and 14 for SSG. There are plenty of bad leaders that are fully qualified on paper.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 6:18 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 18:18:56 -0400

I'd say those soldiers who get promotable status simply because points are low have terrible leadership. One of my specialists begged me to send him to the board. When I asked why he thought he deserved it? "Points are low, and I know I'd get it".
Wrong answer. If you truly want it, you'd earn points to meet the cut off and then a little more just in case. I've been building my points since I was a specialist, and now I meet the cut off for SSG secondary zone (waiting on ALC to actually get promoted) so I get the frustration.
It isn't automatic, but I hear you when it comes to faulty leadership sending soldiers who want the paycheck but don't want to work.
Keep our head up and good luck.

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made May 23 at 2017 7:31 PM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Tue, 23 May 2017 19:31:18 -0400

I've always been of the mindset that not everyone is meant to be a leader. They need to have enlisted ranks like the old specialist hierarchy from many years ago. That way you can still get promoted, recognized, and paid for your vast knowledge and experience, but you never lead or are responsible for others. Frankly, I don't think that anyone should ever be automatically promoted... Everything should be based on merit and performance.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 9:30 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 21:30:40 -0400

The key things here are choosing an MOS that does not effectively lead into a dead end for promotions and taking charger or your own career. Make sure you go to school, take correspondence courses, excel at basic soldier skills, and do your "it's a waste of time" SSDs! The more you put into your career the more you will be able to find success. As you continue higher into NCO ranks make sure you are doing your NCOER Support Form. Make sure that you are making a network of connections. Put yourself out there and takes on those additional duties that nobody wants - and OWN THEM! That's the key to success.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 11:20 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 23:20:37 -0400

dude if youre stuck on points, especially since it seems your mos is always maxed on points, ypu probably should have chosen a different mos. the way the system works is the army only needs a certain number of that rank each month so they fill that number by promoting x number of people. if x is 30 that month then the 30 people with the highest points get promoted and whoever had the lowest points of the 30 is the points limit put out by the army. I know for E5, infantry has been at the minimum or less than 300 or like 3 years straight now, sucks but should have chosen a different mos

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2017 8:46 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 May 2017 08:46:38 -0400

E-1 to E-4 I understand. E-5 and above, I think the Soldier needs to do their own packet so they can teach others how to do it (for the Reserve side). If it's Active Duty and they have to stand in front of the board, that's all on the Soldier as well. I personally don't feel that E-5 and above should be automatic.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made May 24 at 2017 11:36 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Wed, 24 May 2017 11:36:05 -0400

Yours is the classic example of a statement disguised as a question; not that there is anything inherently wrong with that. But in answer to your question, perhaps there are certain circumstances, but as a general rule, I never liked the concept.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2017 1:09 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 May 2017 13:09:19 -0400

The only time there are those who get promoted from the CLI (Command Liste Integration) I believe usually depends on MOS. "Soldiers who meet the established criteria will be integrated onto the SGT/SSG standing list and awarded 39 and 14 points respectively. However, in order to attain more points, Soldiers with CLI status must appear before a promotion board." So you only get "automatic promotion" if your commander circles "yes" and your cutoff is the minimum. If it's not the minimum cutoff then that person still has to make points. So I'm trying to understand the shade thrown at those on CLI.

I have seen very few people come up on the CLI. Someone I worked with two units ago she came up on the CLI or "automatic promotion." The CSM who was there still had her go to a board because the commander can remove someone from CLI.

I don't think you can say someone isn't a real leader because they came up on that list and got promoted that way because they only are getting that promotion if the cutoff scores are super low.

http://www.cutoffscores.com/enlisted-promotions/command-list.html

Command List Integration and Promotion Points for Deployments

Why are promotion points for command list integration (CLI) for Soldiers integrated onto the SGT promotion list 39 promotion points and for Soldiers integrated onto the SSG promotion list, 14 promotion points?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 24 at 2017 6:07 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 24 May 2017 18:07:37 -0400

There isn't a rank or promotion system in the world that can make you a real leader. You either are, or aren't. There are more than enough zebras in the military to illustrate that rank and boards do not confer or validate any leadership ability. You are who you are. Swapping out the cloth on your chest will not magically imbue you with any additional knowledge, wisdom, experience or competence. It's the person that matters.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2017 7:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 May 2017 19:12:54 -0400

To those who are saying automatic promotions equate to bad leaders, take a knee and drink some water.

I've seen my share of Soldiers that appeared to have potential for increased responsibility and all of the traits of a leader. Sent them to school, took them to the board, and became useless once they pinned. Whether they genuinely couldn't cut it or simply played the game to get more money is anyone's guess, but getting promoted "the right way" --a 30-day school and a board--doesn't guarantee success.

Then, and I'm not a fan of blowing my own horn but the situation fits, there is myself. I was promoted automatically both times. I was promoted to Sergeant, and aftwr some soul searching, I figured it was time to "put up or shut up" and perform as some bearing the rank should. It didn't take a week, or a month to turn it around. I'd say it took a couple years. I was looked at and treated negatively for being auto-promoted to the point that even I began to hate myself. I went to a NCO of the month board and killed it, but it didn't matter to anyone. I was still "that guy that was given his promotion"

Same thing for Staff Sergeant. I was prepping for the board when DA beat me to it. Now I was that guy that was promoted twice without seeing the inside of a board room. I'm sure you can imagine how well that went over with the locals.

Both times, I used the negativity as motivation to become better. I have seen other people who were promoted automatically perform the same. Some people just won't dance unless someone is shooting at their feet.

I was promoted to SFC on my first look in the secondary zone (my first "board" I suppose). I've had a successful 2-year tenure as Platoon Sergeant and have been recommended to submit an application to the NCOA at Rucker to be an SGL. I think I've done pretty well for myself for someone who has never been to a promotion board.

To those that think that autopromotees aren't real NCOs, I ask this. Do you treat kids born without limbs or other deformities as less than human? Do you think that they won't grow up to be productive and successful adults? I hope that I didn't offend anyone, and I apologize if I did, but those kinds of comments are exactly what you're telling someone who was auto promoted. It doesn't help them succeed. It doesn't help unit cohesion. It doesn't help...anything really. All it does is undermine the NCO Corps as a whole.

So pull that new NCO aside and lay it on the line. Tell him he just as much of an NCO as the next one. Because of that, just as much of him will be expected. He'll need some extra mentorship, and some tough love once and awhile. When he messes up, council him. Hold him to the same standard as everyone else. If it keeps up, recommend an administrative reduction. If he picks it up and runs with it, you have every reason to be proud as he has for becoming a leader. I have had both results from Soldiers over the years.

Bottom line: you have to give them a chance or they will for sure fail, and you will have failed too.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 25 at 2017 1:23 AM

COL Charles Williams — Thu, 25 May 2017 01:23:17 -0400

Can you explain... ? Yes, I am few years removed... SSG Private RallyPoint Member .... Nothing is automatic... Junior enlisted promotions (are/were) are based on slots available and then merit based. For 1LT, you meet the requirements 1st.... E-5/6 you have to be recommended, do well on the board, and have the required points... CPT and above, and E-7 and above all based on centralized selection boards, as are Battalion and above Command selections, and now CSM positions.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2017 2:05 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 May 2017 14:05:35 -0400

In the Air Force E-1 to E-4 are automatic. Is that what you are talking about? Its not worthy of the cost of boarding and testing. Those can be delayed by disciplinary action.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made May 26 at 2017 9:43 AM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Fri, 26 May 2017 09:43:59 -0400

There is no automatic advancement or promotion. You become eligible, but it is still the Commanding Officer's responsibility to attest to your qualification to serve in the new grade or rank. On the flip side, it is also his or her responsibility to have a superior performer advance ahead of their contemporaries through meritorious or other means.

Response by CPL Kevin Bright made Jun 5 at 2017 10:15 AM

CPL Kevin Bright — Mon, 05 Jun 2017 10:15:09 -0400

Being a Desert Storm era soldier I received Specialist at 2 years of service and went to the promotion board at 4 years. After returning from Desert Storm Being promotable I never sought out sergeant stripes because I knew I had to make cutoff but my primary MOS every month was maxed at 999. Which to everyone knows means overstrength no promotions. I maintained a max score on my promotion points and let my performance speak for itself. Well after another 4 years and a combat tour under my belt I was at my 8th year and got caught in the drawdown after Desert Storm. So because the promotion ladder was clogged up with so many NCOs I could not make sergeant by my 8th year and was discharged. I enlisted into the Army right after High school and a soldier is all I knew what to be unfortunately I was researching my records and noticed that after I went to the promotion board I was recommended for sergeant 5 times! Some people will say you should have went into a secondary MOS well I did. No luck there. I always tell my wife that I woukd have stayed in for 20 and there isn't a day that I dont miss being a soldier.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jul 5 at 2019 1:35 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Fri, 05 Jul 2019 13:35:34 -0400

We were automatically promoted up to E4 unless you screwed up of course, from there only on merit. It helps younger married earn a bit more money, and even that’s tough on the budget, don’t know how they make it.

Response by PO3 John Keas made Jul 5 at 2019 1:35 PM

PO3 John Keas — Fri, 05 Jul 2019 13:35:39 -0400

Promotions/Advancements should be earned by the qualified. Not just handed out. We always looked down on the E4s that came out of school. We called them "Pushbutton 3rds" They were given 3rd class just for completing A School. Hardly any of them were ever taken seriously in the fleet. I earned my crow in the Fleet. I honestly think only those who deserve advancement should get it. It isn't candy.