What do you think about having enlisted drone pilots in the USAF?

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 11:36:36 -0400

A lot of info here about the RPA career field any how the decision will be made in 2016 on whether or not to allow enlisted Airman to be RPA pilots...possibly even fly conventional aircraft in the future.

With all of the changes over the years with enlisted jobs being switched to officer jobs such as Sensor Operators on AC-130s and enlisted Weapons Directors being taken off of AWACS what are your thoughts on this subject?

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/careers/air-force/enlisted/2015/09/28/enlisted-drone-pilots-decision-expected-early-next-year/72806812/

Enlisted drone pilots? Decision expected early next year

For years, the Air Force has had an officer at the stick when one of its remotely piloted aircraft takes off.

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Sep 28 at 2015 11:37 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 11:37:58 -0400

It's like flying a game or simulator, with that said why not?

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 11:39 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 11:39:53 -0400

I don't really have a particular issue with a drone pilot being enlisted or an officer. My guess for why pilots have traditionally been officers is two-fold. One for the leadership aspect in a multi-crewed aircraft (not an issue with any current drones) and two for "aptitude" for education. They know an officer made it through 4 years of college and has a "better" chance of making it through flight school. To start with far more enlisted personnel have degrees than ever before, and second I don't know that making it through college is a good indicator anymore anyways.

Long story short it doesn't particularly bother me.

Response by SSgt Donnavon Smith made Sep 28 at 2015 11:41 AM

SSgt Donnavon Smith — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 11:41:00 -0400

Re-instate Warrant Officers and promote into these billets after "flight" school

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 11:46 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 11:46:09 -0400

Having a baccalaureate degree has absolutely NO bearing on ones ability to fly a drone, unless Drone flying was their major in college!

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 12:14 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 12:14:28 -0400

I certainly feel like enlisted guys can fly and do all the jobs officers do (there are a ton of prior enlisted officers out there proving this point), but I feel like if you are going to have the responsibility you should also have the rank. Open the flood gates to enlisted who meets the prerequisites and if they qualify send them to OTS. RPA is really the only field that I can see us using warrant officers, so that seems like a big step.

Long story short I feel like any NCO that has the aptitude to fly also has the aptitude to finish a 4 year degree, so the requirement should stay the same while increasing the number of accessions to fill the holes.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 28 at 2015 12:29 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 12:29:17 -0400

I think we have some talented enlisted folks who could do the job well

Response by MSgt Darren VanDerwilt made Sep 28 at 2015 2:03 PM

MSgt Darren VanDerwilt — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:03:35 -0400

Well, my two cents. I'm a retired Air Force jet engine, F-15, and F-4G maintenance technician. I currently work for a commuter airline as an aircraft maintenance inspector. I have over 30 years in the career.
We have several sayings amongst enlisted maintainers: It takes a PhD or Masters degree to design it, a Bachelors to fly it, and a High School or Associates to fix what the previous three screwed up. To err is human, but to really mess up takes a college degree. The three scariest things to hear while in the military; 1) A 2nd Lt saying, "Based on my experience..." 2) A Captain saying, "I've been thinking, ..." 3) When a SNCO says, "Now watch what happens next."
The flight manual for most aircraft consists of one or two volumes, the maintenance manuals consist of hundreds depending on the airframe. Enlisted maintenance personnel have to also employ numerous other guidelines, manuals, instructions, etc., while performing their duties. The knowledge/skill base is no smaller than it is for officers. Now, to be clear, I always got along with pilots, though there's a few I wouldn't let drive a bus.
Entry level commercial airline pilots have the equivalent of an Associates in Applied Science degree. It's all about the training, meeting the requirements, and demonstrating the aptitude. Drones/RPV's are generally operated much like a group of gamers on Xbox.
Like a Helmsman in the Navy, the guy/gal who drives the ship/submarine, they receive commands from the Captain and execute them. That's how I see it in drone flying also.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Sep 28 at 2015 2:06 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:06:47 -0400

After watching teens operate RC vehicles (cars, trucks, boats, helicopters, planes, and local drones.... they are better equipped for it than most Officers. I say go for it!

Response by MSgt Danny Hope made Sep 28 at 2015 2:22 PM

MSgt Danny Hope — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:22:47 -0400

The way I remember it...the first drone pilots were enlisted. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Sep 28 at 2015 2:50 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:50:58 -0400

I think it's a good idea. It is a waste of valuable training time to have a fighter jock sitting on a chair in Nevada doing a job enlisted personnel could do just as well.

Response by CW3 Eric W. S. made Sep 28 at 2015 2:54 PM

CW3 Eric W. S. — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:54:36 -0400

I don't see any issues with it, particularly if we can remove some of the instances of commissioned pilots sucking up flight pay for sitting on the ground... Enlisted are just as capable and competent as any officer. A college degree does not make you a better pilot or leader.

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Sep 28 at 2015 5:28 PM

MSgt John Taylor — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 17:28:24 -0400

An old Maintenance Group Commander of mine had a degree in Forestry. It was his AF training and experience that made him capable. Show me how, and I can do it.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Sep 28 at 2015 9:00 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 21:00:08 -0400

I am just guessing but it could be that they are worried about giving younger and probably less experienced people the responsibility of making the shoot/don't shoot decision. Some gamers might be too eager to blow-up everybody and everything in sight like you do in most games. Of course that problem could be solved with training.

Response by SFC James Barnes made Sep 29 at 2015 1:25 AM

SFC James Barnes — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 01:25:13 -0400

Ma'am seeming that the Air Force has had enlisted pilots in the past and they were very successful I don't see a problem with them flying drones. I know flying a drone is a little different than flying a fighter aircraft but seeming a lot of pilots learn to fly on the civilian side the learning curve should be bad and the AF wouldn't be re-inventing the wheel. Plus this could give the opportunity for the air force to bring back their warrant officer corp like the rest of the military.

Response by CPT Edward Barr made Sep 29 at 2015 3:45 AM

CPT Edward Barr — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 03:45:56 -0400

My title rank says Cpt. However, my profile notes show that be as a GS12, the site doesn't allow for that. I was enlisted as active duty, and I made the mistake of not finishing college because it was too easy and too boring.
I have a private pilots license, and I picked up how to fly a helicopter rather easily. I have spent most of my life in a command or supervisory role, and a lot of people say I can be very smart at times.
However, I have met countless enlisted persons whom are significantly smarter than I am. Extrapolate those numbers service wide, and you have a huge pool of enlisted people smart enough to learn to fly, and have good communicating and leadership skills.
So, yes, drone piloting should be opened up to the enlisted ranks.
The FAST test should weed out most who won't pass flight school.

Response by TSgt Jack Manigold made Sep 29 at 2015 2:32 PM

TSgt Jack Manigold — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:32:33 -0400

I have seen enlisted Airmen after being a sensor operator for a couple of years walk pilots through the pre-flight, post flight and checklists during combat sorties. I whole heartedly believe a warrant officer class should be created. This would allow these enlisted guys a viable career path versus being bottlenecked at promotion time or forced out because there are too many (insert rank here).

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2015 2:53 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:53:12 -0400

So, the reason that military pilots are generally officers is because way more people want to be a pilot than the military has need for. It's just another way to whittle down prospects to a more reasonable number. Plus, in order for that pilot to stay on after their initial commitment, an officer's salary is more enticing than enlisted.

This is opposed to the AF's drone program, which is causing the AF to hemorrhage pilots like crazy. Unlike being an actual pilot, hours in a drone do not translate over to any civilian fly job. So AF pilots are getting out before they have to do a drone tour.

So on one hand you got a pilot, a job that lots of people want to do, and has lucrative prospects outside the military, so it makes sense to make them officers. And on the other hand you have drone operator, which not as many people want to do, and does not provide lucrative outside career options. Makes sense to open up the billet to anyone who wants to do the job. I'd suggest "highschool to flight school" program like the Army has for its Warrant Officer pilot procurement.

Response by Maj Walter Kilar made Sep 29 at 2015 9:13 PM

Maj Walter Kilar — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:13:10 -0400

In today's Air Force, I think there is a trade space for drones to be operated by enlisted operators. The service would need to take a hard look at its force structure and decide if all drones are created equally. A small, unarmed, ISR drone such as an RQ-11 Raven should most definitely be flown by enlisted (as they are now). A medium sized, unarmed, tactical ISR drone such as a Scan Eagle should be operated by an enlisted operator. The debate begins with the "medium sized", unarmed, tactical ISR drone such as the MQ-1 Predator. This drone is large enough to have " multi-crew", multi-mission capability. Does this require the command authority of a commissioned officer. Personally, I think the Predator would be a good case study for promoting enlisted Airmen as warrant officers. Maybe there would be a transition period for rated officers to fly the Predator across international airspace, but hand over control in theater to a warrant officer. An armed MQ-9 Reaper drone should probably be operated by a rated, commissioned officer if there are no warrant officers, or the CONOPs should be to have a rated "patch" standing next to the enlisted drone pilot to give the order to fire.

Response by SPC George Long made Sep 29 at 2015 9:59 PM

SPC George Long — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:59:33 -0400

They should already be flying them.

Response by CMSgt John Momaney made Sep 29 at 2015 10:27 PM

CMSgt John Momaney — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 22:27:39 -0400

I asked this question once in the an Air Force fighter squadron commander. Why must you have a college degree to be a pilot? The answer was; it indicates you have the desire and fortitude to complete a extended coarse of training and will not quiet half way through it.

Response by CMSgt John Momaney made Sep 29 at 2015 10:38 PM

CMSgt John Momaney — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 22:38:00 -0400

Have you ever watched you son or grandson playing combat games were they are flying a plane using a joy stick? They are great at hitting targets and shooting down enemy planes. could they be an enlisted drone pilot - absolutely. You are not physically strap into a seat and physically flying a fighter plan. Your oxygen mask is not stuck to your face so tight when you land the outline of the mask is on your face. I believe enlisted men would excell as a drone pilot and they should be allowed to.

Response by Maj William Gambrell made Sep 30 at 2015 12:56 AM

Maj William Gambrell — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 00:56:00 -0400

No problem with me. Flying a drone is not hard. The technical piece of managing sensors/C2 information and weapon release are the issue in today's world.

Response by GySgt Moses Lozano made Oct 2 at 2015 8:06 PM

GySgt Moses Lozano — Fri, 02 Oct 2015 20:06:16 -0400

This is a good idea because most enlisted will do a better job than some officers would. Too many officers let their positions get to their heads. Instead of using their positions to lead from the front many tend to do the opposite to the peril of their units.

Response by TSgt Bill Parker made Oct 9 at 2015 2:54 PM

TSgt Bill Parker — Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:54:20 -0400

For many years in the "Original" Air Corp, Officers were only too happy to forego flying and delegate it to enlisted. Now that it is relatively safe, they want to be able to regain the "glory seat" and go home to kith & kin every evening.
The former USAFSS command were comprised of about 95% enlisted under 5% officers and were proud to be able to provide real-time intel to all levels of commands up to the Pentagon and POTUS. Many times visiting officers/DoD brass were miffed when they were greeted by enlisted people to meet & greet them. Didn't want to talk with anyone less than the rank of Major until they were told that one would have to be flown in.
Enlisted not smart enough to do the jobs?? I've worked shoulder-to-shoulder with PhDs and Masters degree E-3/4s in a Command that was the top 2% of all AF enlisted educationally. So put that your smoke and pipe it!!

Response by SGT William Howell made Dec 18 at 2015 7:11 AM

SGT William Howell — Fri, 18 Dec 2015 07:11:41 -0500

The one thing I found interesting was the legal part of this article. I find it humorous that they would think dropping a bomb needs to be done by an officer. While I have never dropped a bomb, I have been a trigger puller in combat. there was never a officer next to me saying "OK shoot that one, now shoot that one." Come to think of it most of the time there was not an officer even with us. ROEs are established, they are a lawful order and all are required to comply. What makes an airborn weapon any different than a Hellfire launched from the ground?

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Dec 18 at 2015 7:37 AM

Capt Walter Miller — Fri, 18 Dec 2015 07:37:56 -0500

I thought everybody in the Air Force was a drone. No?

Walt

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Dec 18 at 2015 11:40 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:40:31 -0500

If they are properly trained, I think it is an excellent move by the Air Force. I think the reasons why one might want an office at the stick of an aircraft are not the same for drone pilots.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Dec 18 at 2015 11:42 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:42:00 -0500

I never really understood the requirement that drone pilots needed to be fully qualified aviators considering that drones pretty much take off, land and fly themselves anyways. But overall I think it's a great opportunity for enlisted members.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Dec 18 at 2015 11:49 AM

Capt Walter Miller — Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:49:54 -0500

Ah, the joy of a liberal arts education:

If you’re the parent of a tween, be warned: your cautious 10-year-old is bound to turn into a wild child in a few short years, with seemingly no regard whatsoever for safety. Indeed, teenagers have the double the risk of dying compared to their preteen selves.

Adults have long reckoned with ways to protect adolescents from their own misjudgments. Only recently, however, have researchers really begun to understand how the teen brain is wired and that some of what appear to be teens’ senseless choices may result from biological tendencies that also prime their brains to learn and be flexible.

Take teens’ perception of risk. It’s certainly different from that of adults, but not in the ways you’d expect. Research shows, for instance, that teens tend to wildly overestimate certain risks — of things like unprotected sex and drug use — not to lowball them as one would predict. So, it may be that teens’ notorious risk-taking behavior stems not from some immunity to known risks, but rather, as a new study now suggests, from their greater tolerance to uncertainty and ambiguity — that is, unknown risks.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/02/why-the-teen-brain-is-drawn-to-risk/

Why the Teen Brain Is Drawn to Risk | TIME.com

If you're the parent of a tween, be warned: your cautious 10-year-old is bound to turn into a wild child in a few short years, with seemingly no regard whatsoever for safety. Indeed, teenagers have the double the risk of dying compared to their preteen selves.

Response by CW3 Jim Norris made Dec 18 at 2015 2:32 PM

CW3 Jim Norris — Fri, 18 Dec 2015 14:32:55 -0500

Gonna piss off a bunch of prima donna flight suits.......if Sergeant Smith can 'fly' and Abrams, he can fly a drone......too much overpaid help in the Air Force. Top Aces in WWII where Flight Sergeants in the British Air Force. Just like everything else, we have inflated both the ego and the pay grade overtime.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Dec 18 at 2015 6:06 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Fri, 18 Dec 2015 18:06:27 -0500

I will give my honest opinion, I am befuddled to no end at the grades used in the USAF for the duties that get done in other services. I have had maintenance platoons larger than some USAF units that are commanded by people far senior to me. I don't get it? How can the Army fly its helicopter fleet on WO's and the Air Force can't. How could the Army guard its nuclear units with Captain )-3 as the commander, and the Air Force can't. the grade inflation in the USAF is unreal, so back to the original question, I see no reason other to preserve officer billets.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Dec 24 at 2015 6:14 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 18:14:41 -0500

I'm against it. Naval officers have been burdened with more responsibility than infantry officers (for example) because the vessels they command are pieces of America. They expand the national boundaries to touch on those of other nations whenever they sail across waters. Thus they are diplomatic officers as well as military officers. Thus they enjoy a somewhat loftier perch than their non-naval counterparts. Those who pilot aircraft are modern adaptations of the same concept. Having a non-commissioned person pilot a warcraft into the airspace of another nation is to put a heap of responsibility on the shoulders of those who are not prepared to carry it.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Jun 12 at 2017 7:00 PM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:00:38 -0400

Why not? With their "gaming" skills they can probably controll an RPA better than most active officer flyers.

Response by SSG Jeremy Sharp made Jun 12 at 2017 8:55 PM

SSG Jeremy Sharp — Mon, 12 Jun 2017 20:55:31 -0400

I think that skill and talent in operating these weapons systems have no basis in rank requirement. If an enlisted person shows the skill and aptitude necessary then the real right answer is to use the best and most qualified person for the job. The commission does not equal competence or technical proficiency. If the enlisted drone pilot is more skilled then come up with a warrant officer program that recognizes his competence and put him to work.

Response by SSgt John Carter made Nov 8 at 2017 12:11 PM

SSgt John Carter — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 12:11:42 -0500

I think it's a step in the right direction, but the Air Force should be the same as the other services and offer WO pilots, and other avenues of promotion and pilot training than a 4 year degree/academy.

Response by TSgt Steve Wheeler made Mar 15 at 2018 12:10 AM

TSgt Steve Wheeler — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 00:10:15 -0400

The "total airmen concept" applies here. It was stated earlier that more enlisted folks have a BA or Masters degree with great leadership/management training and experience. Applicant competition will be awesome and lose nothing in transfer. The attitude should be that of fair coach, "The best players will play, period."

Response by SPC Tino Valentine made Jun 4 at 2018 9:25 AM

SPC Tino Valentine — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 09:25:10 -0400

A few years ago Nissan partnered with Polyphony Digital, the company that brought us nerds the Gran Turismo series of games, to create a worldwide competition. Gamers would compete in-game with lap times, and be placed on a global standing tracker. This went on with smaller and smaller qualifying groups, and finalized with a group of 12 going to Nissan’s proving ground and holding a contest for the opportunity to become a licensed racing driver. I think they’ve held it twice so far, and have come through with capable, competitive drivers added to their roster who have started successful racing careers, with little to no experience other than playing online.
This isn’t to say pilots should be found online, just that they may be found in a variety of places.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jun 5 at 2019 8:12 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 20:12:01 -0400

I hadn't seen the aspect of no enlisted weapon director's on AWACS, to me, at least, that seems unusual, though, certainly, warrants, as mentioned here, could certainly be a quite viable solution, I should think, you know?

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jun 5 at 2019 8:12 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 20:12:20 -0400

Same with drone pilots, as well, I'd also expect....