What do you think is an archaic or traditional thing we still do in the military that is no longer necessary?

2016-03-31T20:27:26-04:00

There are some things we do in the military that was deemed appropriate for the time it was created or existed, but by today's technology and standard of living and expectations may seem overkill or unnecessary. I think its time that the military evolved itself into adulthood and get rid of some things. Formations are one.

(Let me clarify - not all formations are set to disseminate information. Face-to-face can be done out of formation [if you're not stuck behind your desk], and accountability is typically done before a formation - if someone is missing, you either will call them, knock on doors, or go to their house. There are circumstantial units that exist where formations don't happen; deployments are typically one of them. Most units don't do D&C or Manual of Arms these days. So what are we really doing in a non-event i.e. promotions, awards, or ceremonies that can't be done outside of a formation?)

Response by CSM Michael Chavaree made Mar 31 at 2016 8:35 PM

2016-03-31T20:35:05-04:00

Formations are a great way to interact with all Soldiers at once and put out information directly from the source... what would the alternative be?

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Mar 31 at 2016 8:36 PM

2016-03-31T20:36:07-04:00

Sounds like a Chinese fire drill. No formations? Operate the military w/ text messages? Let me know how it works.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Mar 31 at 2016 9:02 PM

2016-03-31T21:02:55-04:00

I will agree 100% on formations. For us it's commander's calls. The way I see it if it can be disseminated to everyone via e-mail instead of cramming everyone into a packed, hot and sweaty room outside of some people's work hours (which 90% of the time it could) then it should be sent via e-mail.

I also think saluting, at least saluting officer's vehicles, could be done away with as it doesn't really serve much of a purpose anymore in my opinion. That'll never die though.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 9:19 PM

2016-03-31T21:19:29-04:00

There are alot of redundancies. I agree automated documentation and keep a copy of the printout for the unit and SM. Formations is still the bed way at the beginning and at COB to get information out. There are several jobs that do not have formation on a regular basis and information doesn't always get put out appropriately.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Mar 31 at 2016 9:40 PM

2016-03-31T21:40:12-04:00

Morning Quarters! Stupid Way of Doing Business on a ship if you ask me.

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Mar 31 at 2016 9:40 PM

2016-03-31T21:40:46-04:00

When I was in the 82nd Airborne Division as a 1Lt, we had to endure the traditional "Prop Blast". What I remember doing was having to drink alcohol and do stupid things for initiation. It was terrible!

Response by SFC Wade W. made Mar 31 at 2016 9:43 PM

2016-03-31T21:43:08-04:00

Face time with soldiers can never be replaced. Some think formations are stupid. It is an integral part of reinforcing the CoC. Same with PT, road marches, etc. And some admin people think they don't need all that soldier stuff to do their job that was disproven during our most recent wars. The enemy doesn't ask you what your MOS is before they engage. I personally believe to ensure our future we must firmly hang on to our traditions. When I attended basic and all of my leadership courses I appreciated the reaffirming of out history and our traditions as an Army and as an MP Corps.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 9:56 PM

2016-03-31T21:56:32-04:00

Printed hand receipts. Then again that would require the military to maintain a functional computerized record system

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 10:19 PM

2016-03-31T22:19:30-04:00

1. different grooming standards for men and women.
2. chaplains
3. command influenced prayer at CoC ceremonies, etc
3. how officers are selected
4. between the 4 services we have more band members than the State Dept has Foreign Service Officers (and I don't really like the state dept)

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 11:01 PM

2016-03-31T23:01:55-04:00

I'm pretty certain that there's way more change that could be done away with than changes needing to be made...

Response by Capt Brandy (Thompson) McDermed made Mar 31 at 2016 11:05 PM

2016-03-31T23:05:53-04:00

yes this response may seem trivial...

My answer is simply that the waistline on the female version of most uniforms (especially AF Blues) is so ungodly high that mine went over my ribcage! WHY hasn't this been fixed long ago???

1. It affected my ability to breathe at times.
2. The waist/belt line aspect of the pants was tiny in comparison to the hip/thigh area. Therefore if I were to buy a larger size waist, it would appear as if I were wearing MC Hammer pants!
3. They were so hideous in appearance that many of my civie coworkers, friends, and family would go out of their way to tell me so.
4. By the end of Monday I would also get the worst case of heartburn, nausea, and stomach upset from the pressure of the waistline.

All I can say is that I was so thankful to work in the MDG so that I could change into scrubs on most Monday's.

Yes I know it sounds so trivial and that I should have just gotten a pair of MC Hammer pants and busted into the running-man or a Hammertime dance but I didnt want to look more even more ridiculous and I refused to pay one more red cent on this awful piece of clothing.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Mar 31 at 2016 11:19 PM

2016-03-31T23:19:17-04:00

Shining brass

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Mar 31 at 2016 11:19 PM

2016-03-31T23:19:28-04:00

Printing things out hard copy

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Mar 31 at 2016 11:19 PM

2016-03-31T23:19:39-04:00

Promoting people irrespective of merit

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 11:29 PM

2016-03-31T23:29:16-04:00

I disagree - these things inculcated in order to establish discipline.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made Apr 1 at 2016 12:17 AM

2016-04-01T00:17:07-04:00

Those pesky formations are a bother. We should do telework and get rid of PT too.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 12:30 AM

2016-04-01T00:30:53-04:00

emails or texts will never replace face to face communication. Sorry, formations are part of the military, and they should be.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 2:57 AM

2016-04-01T02:57:39-04:00

Getting with the times regarding tattoos. Sure the older folks may not have (m)any, but the current generation are becoming covered in tats. A lot of these people are intelligent, good people. Why limit your talent pool because of old policies seemingly developed back when tats were considered taboo?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 5:05 AM

2016-04-01T05:05:49-04:00

The wear of identification tags!

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Apr 1 at 2016 5:48 AM

2016-04-01T05:48:24-04:00

Sorry Staff Sergeant, but formations are to me the best way to communicate with the men, plus you can't award a person a medal or ribbon over the phone or computer. This also the best way to see who is absent from the group, or who is AWOL.

Response by SFC Familia Gonzalez made Apr 1 at 2016 7:57 AM

2016-04-01T07:57:30-04:00

Stand-To... I'm being facetious of course.

Response by SFC Familia Gonzalez made Apr 1 at 2016 8:43 AM

2016-04-01T08:43:07-04:00

Paying a Jumpmaster conducting Jumpmaster duties, the same as a jumper... Or has that changed? If so, good!

Response by SFC Familia Gonzalez made Apr 1 at 2016 9:11 AM

2016-04-01T09:11:21-04:00

The Koala bear... God I hated doing that!

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 1 at 2016 9:27 AM

2016-04-01T09:27:45-04:00

Thank you all for your comments, I read through them those that contend that formations are necessary, I don't agree that they are not. But is something that wouldn't eliminate communication(s) or face-to-face time. After all, you will still or should see your Soldiers during the duty day; a quick huddle to disseminate information is just as effective if not even more (we all know most people don't pay attention or can hear/retain information in a formation).

The movement from one place to another I agree with is still great (esprit de corps), ceremonial formations (awards, promotions, change of command/responsibility, and urinalysis) are definitely a keep. Its the everyday formations that has nothing more than "receive the report" and "take charge" is what I am referencing to. There maybe a thing or two mentioned such as what's significant going on for the day or week, but once again as things change, we discuss it throughout the day without formation anyway - do we not?

Accountability formation - in most places aren't necessary due to the fact that if only PT is conducted, it should be done down to the Squad/Section level anyway. If there is a need to get accountability - most units have (Platoon Sergeant) meetings prior to formation and usually are aware of who is not going to be there anyway. Since we have moved away from going to the barracks and knocking on doors in the morning prior to PT, if a soldier is out of ranks - what happens? We call or go to their room/house anyway.

How many field grade(s) officers and warrant officers - even senior NCOs actually show up to formations if they are not in-charge of Soldiers these days. Most units, I say its rare to none. Formations are essential in a lot of things - yes! But, in the reality of life today, if it was go away, I don't think it would kill anyone. Remember, we are a force that adapts and overcome.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 9:50 AM

2016-04-01T09:50:31-04:00

Sit ups.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Apr 1 at 2016 9:58 AM

2016-04-01T09:58:09-04:00

The Draft.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Apr 1 at 2016 10:03 AM

2016-04-01T10:03:20-04:00

Stand To........ for those units that still conduct such a thing

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 1 at 2016 10:48 AM

2016-04-01T10:48:38-04:00

There are skills that are no longer taught because electronics and flat panels made them OBE; mostly. Two unique things I had to learn was write backwards and interpret spaced arcs on the radar screen. The first was for the plexiglass vertical plots you needed to stand behind so the people could read it without having to see through you. The second was zooming in on your radar repeater for the IFF code so you weren't shooting down a friendly. So some of it comes in later as I always carried a box of china markers and some clear plastic for when the power went down, as it always does, in the badlands.

"Formation" I presume is similar to our "Quarters". It's more important in some places. Aboard ship, it was to make sure nobody went overboard. In the badlands, it was to hammer again on not touching anything outside the marked lanes. We still had those who did and had to box them up. Otherwise on the small Det sites, whatever you'd do a quarters was handled at breakfast. You never had quarters in an area where concentrating your troops makes an easy target for a preset mortar.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Apr 1 at 2016 12:01 PM

2016-04-01T12:01:15-04:00

Well, here's one that pretty much did go away for the better- Cammo'ing up the hands and face just because you are in a field mode. I had been in infantry units where it was even policy to cammo up for weapons qual. Not sure it helped anyone shoot straighter.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 12:09 PM

2016-04-01T12:09:59-04:00

12 mile ruck marches. I would say 6 miles should be a good distance since most units are mechanized. This would also save LOD injuries. This is but one man's opinion

Response by SrA Paul Pfeil made Apr 1 at 2016 1:32 PM

2016-04-01T13:32:53-04:00

One night while working the main gate at Holloman AFB, I was waving traffic, and officer came through. I couldn't tell the difference in sticker color because the white light on the gate was changed to yellow. So I missed it. I had just pulled a drunk to the side for routine vehicle inspection. The Lt, pulled over , got out of his car, blocking traffic and my vehicle for inspection from getting over safely. He approached my proceeding to give me an alfa Charlie. Big big mistake!!! Not only did I have him in cuffs in like 3 seconds, I called for assistance, my flight chief and Comander came to the gate as they were riding together. Oh that Lt, had the worst night. My Comander had his Comander at my gate, and then they both got a much bigger Alfalfa Charlie. Oh and I got to inventory search and toe the Let's vehicle. Read your post orders, know the rules and use them. At the gate YOU are in charge. You are responsible for the safety of ALL who enter.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 1:54 PM

2016-04-01T13:54:56-04:00

Sorry, but formations and many other things like saluting, and maintaining standards come from a long line of history and traditions that make the Army what it is. Some may be redundant and not loved by many but right now we're in an Army that it's losing a lot of the things that we should hold dear and makes us who we are. I believe we should hold on to traditions, embrace them and enforce them among all ranks.

Response by Cpl Jim Bishop made Apr 1 at 2016 2:09 PM

2016-04-01T14:09:59-04:00

Leave it al alone. It works fine for the Corps

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 2:28 PM

2016-04-01T14:28:58-04:00

Realistic ht/wt standards. Do well on PT test, excellent leader, two master's degrees and 12 deployments in twenty years (3 1/2 in Iraq and 9 30-90 day trips to Central America), but I'm a shitbag because I've been fluffy my whole career?

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Apr 1 at 2016 2:55 PM

2016-04-01T14:55:41-04:00

No Formations are necessary from the stand point of accountability, but there number can be decrease greatly. At least they did away with saluting the flag pole, when by it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 3:50 PM

2016-04-01T15:50:57-04:00

Staff Duty. Either everybody pull it or nobody pull it. Don't say you or your job is 'too important'. If you can go on leave, you can pull Staff Duty. That said, I'd rather see it abolished, because it is nothing but sleep deprivation.

Maybe that's what SD stands for: Sleep Deprivation. :-)

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 3:55 PM

2016-04-01T15:55:33-04:00

ssg you obviously grew up in the millineal age millitary customs and courtsesies are part of the millitary if you cant see this then maybe you should be pcf

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 4:10 PM

2016-04-01T16:10:37-04:00

I am waiting for that first nuclear strike where the EMPs destroy the use of all technology and then we will know exactly how important that survival school training was and that we should have paid better attention to figuring out grid coordinates by hand.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made Apr 1 at 2016 5:11 PM

2016-04-01T17:11:28-04:00

If we get rid of formations does that mean we just have a big cluster gathering like at a company picnic? The military is about organization, order and uniformity. Think about trying to get 150 civilian workers together at 1630 and passing important info. It is a huge gaggle. Now get a military unit of 150 together in a uniformed formation. You have everyones attention and the squad leaders have better accountability of their troops.

Response by SSgt Guy Meloche made Apr 1 at 2016 5:44 PM

2016-04-01T17:44:57-04:00

Head shaving in basic training only for men. Either shave the women's heads as well, or just have everyone conform to a uniform standard. No reason to shave heads except to humiliate.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 6:42 PM

2016-04-01T18:42:33-04:00

Well the formation are still good way too see how our soldiers are doing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 6:45 PM

2016-04-01T18:45:53-04:00

Agree their be changes to an ever growing army but formation are still needed

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 7:45 PM

2016-04-01T19:45:07-04:00

Excluding a flight simulator for practicing emergency procedures, all other virtual training is garbage. Virtual convoy live fire training? Virtual ranges? The software is glitchy and the training value is nil. If you want to learn how to shoot, you do it at a range with real ammo. There's no substitute for real training. You think ISIS is doing virtual convoy live fire? No....they're doing it for real. These programs are government chaff and we need to cut it out.

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Apr 1 at 2016 8:05 PM

2016-04-01T20:05:40-04:00

They need to BRING BACK some traditions, not get rid of them. Everything that seemed/seems outdated or ridiculous has a purpose behind it, formations be one of them. Accountability, discipline or just getting info passed, in my opinion it is the core of unit cohesion. It shows we are one from top to bottom. Besides, I think it's a powerful image to see a platoon, company, battalion or regiment in formation.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 8:28 PM

2016-04-01T20:28:29-04:00

Why would we get rid of tradition personally I think the Army needs to go back to old school and stop with all the changes. We are here to fight and win our nation's wars and to protect our country from all enemies foreign and domestic. I think we have a bunch of un disiplined Soldiers through not fault of their own our Army has gone soft we need to get rid of all these counselings to and start taking it back to the wood line again.

Response by SFC Jerome Ludwig made Apr 1 at 2016 11:54 PM

2016-04-01T23:54:44-04:00

I think the military could do better without candiass NCO's who can't accept or enforce discipline.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2016 3:48 AM

2016-04-02T03:48:52-04:00

Centrally-managed assignment processes. Why are we still using a 50-year old model that focuses on requirements versus a system that fosters competition, allows local managers (say, at the O-5 or O-6 level) to hire folks to do jobs in which they are interested and qualified?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2016 5:11 AM

2016-04-02T05:11:36-04:00

Me as a SPC I think formations are important as far as putting out information and accountability. Who's to say that if someone's phone is either dead or disconnected how are you supposed to get ahold of them you may ask. Face to face. So instead of wasting all that time calling everyone just have everyone come to one location and knock out whatever it is that need to be done.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2016 9:25 AM

2016-04-02T09:25:27-04:00

If there was one thing that I could get rid of. It would be to...here it goes...get rid of 0630 PT. I know that this is going to ruffle some feathers, but here's why I feel it needs to go:

1) PT takes away 3-4 HOURS of work time every day! Think about how many man hours are wasted Army-wide, not just in that 1-hour of PT, but in the resulting traffic jams and the personal hygiene that needs to be conducted afterwards.

2) it's a personal responsibility, so I feel that it should be done on personal time. All of my PT studs (and myself included) are that way, not because the give it their all at 0630-0730, but because they go to the gym in their own time.

3) Those that do go to the gym on their own time can tell you that one hour is almost useless and, in actuality, morning PT uses very little of that hour for actual PT. If you factor in the unit formation, warm up, cool down, and brief on what's going on for the rest of the day, there is really little time left for an actual workout

Response by SGT Jim Donner made Apr 2 at 2016 10:49 AM

2016-04-02T10:49:03-04:00

It is up to each units leadership. Balance, formations, smart phones , walky talky, redundancy should be an Army wide goal at all times. This all or nothing appoach is lazy leadership. Leadership needs to asses where their unit is and come up with a plan to get where they need to be. The officers evaluation cycle can be the most destructive force in the Army because it most likely will push the OPTEMPO above the productive stress level causing burnout and injuries.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2016 12:53 PM

2016-04-02T12:53:35-04:00

I know right. My arm gets so tired of saluting back that 4 or 5 other soldiers who still adhere to those archaic Army standards of discipline and customs and courtesies. Why do privates or subordinate enlisted need to stand at parade rest for senior NCOs too? We need to revamp the Army. Let's start with the name; it's so outdated. US Corps of Colors is better. Get it because we all come in different shades but together as one force. We should also switch our American flags to rainbow flags. Not like the 42nd but like actual LGBTQ rainbow flags. Yup.

(This is a joke as I'm assuming your post was a April Fools eve joke that no one got)

Response by SFC Joe Boombah made Apr 2 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-04-02T13:07:56-04:00

I am glad I am retired because it seems like all the things that made soldiers who they are is being taken away. Pressed uniforms shined boots are no more and now you want to take away the tradition of the salute and the formations. The one that really is grinding my gears is PLDC. It used to be once you met the cut off score you were slotted into an E-5 slot you then went to PLDC and once you came back and you were promoted. Now they just hand out E-5 rank without training. Way to set up our young NCO's for failure. Our traditions and custom and courtesies make us who we are and you want that to go away? Really!? Let me guess you also voted for Hillary didn't ya Sally Boy.

Response by CPO Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols made Apr 2 at 2016 1:57 PM

2016-04-02T13:57:20-04:00

I'm personally against stopping formations as they are a clear accounting of personnew as well as a physical connection with the unit. Manditory drills are seen some over stated until the REAL emergency occurs and massive amounts of people react in unison to stop emergency with minimum loss of life and equipment. I for one witnessed a at-sea major fire with no loss of life. Shipmates in other areas of the ship from the fire helping to cut smoke from going through the ship is only one example. The ESWS designation was very evident that day. Result 1 of 2 engine rooms totally consumed while no. 2 engine relighted fires and our ship was back underway without assistance. I look forward to reading more.

Response by SFC Antonio Nieto made Apr 2 at 2016 3:34 PM

2016-04-02T15:34:11-04:00

None that is why we have the ability to go and fight, there is something's that need adjustment and leaders could created SOP and passed down to future generations

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2016 4:45 PM

2016-04-02T16:45:27-04:00

Accountability is not reliable via text or email & nothing should happen before you get accountability of your troops.

Response by LTC John Mohor made Apr 2 at 2016 9:57 PM

2016-04-02T21:57:05-04:00

1) The way active duty treats reserve service members after their current value is forgotten.
2) having only men register for the draft especially now that all MOS' are open to women.

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 2 at 2016 10:24 PM

2016-04-02T22:24:36-04:00

I do think some don't understand the concept between tradition/archaic versus evolution/contemporary. There were a lot of things that were considered tradition that we evolved from hence is why we are the greatest fighting force in the world. We don't line fight, we don't fix bayonets, we don't march or ride boats to combat, we don't ride horses around the installation anymore, we don't post guards at headquarter's doors anymore so they can open them for visitors, I can go on and on about traditions that no longer are traditions even the uniform(s).

So, when I say that perhaps formations are becoming the thing of the past - this is a validating reason why - we don't have them on weekends, when information needs to get put out. Such as that Sunday night decision to cancel PT Monday morning due to weather. Or that late night/early morning decision to cancel formation for weather, PAI, or whatever. We all done it and been a part of it, so I wish people didn't act brand new like formations is the one thing that will make or break the Army.

To some that say its to interact and have face time with the Soldiers: Do you not see them during the duty day or around the work place? To those that say to put out information: Does information only get disseminated at 0630 or 1700 (or whatever time your formation may be)?

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2016 1:50 AM

2016-04-03T01:50:03-04:00

Bluf: Nope. Unfortunately, you are off target.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Apr 3 at 2016 2:01 AM

2016-04-03T02:01:35-04:00

We need to continue the trend of getting rid of "busy work" and focus on actual training. A lot of the spit and polish from the older days was three fold. To instill discipline, attention to detail and keep the troops from having too much free time.
This was done in earlier times by limitless personel and barracks inspections and parades. With all the complicated equipment that needs to be operated and maintained there is no reason that "busy Work" should be created.
In recruit training its neccessary, but there is no reason for an Infantryman to spend hours painting rocks and shining brass when there is a myriad of weapon systems he could be learning.

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made Apr 3 at 2016 3:52 AM

2016-04-03T03:52:57-04:00

I don't miss wasting a Sunday evening shining and pressing. I don't miss having to schedule and budget for the dry-cleaners. When we crossed the berm into Iraq, nothing about that process was of any value to me or anyone else.

If it's tangential to killing people and breaking stuff (or facilitating and enabling killing people and breaking stuff), then we might not need to do it. If the only reason we do something is "tradition", well then, that's a stupid answer

The hand salute (as an example)? I'd argue that we retain the hand salute for reasons OTHER than just tradition. Most of the time, I think that it's just like a secret handshake: you've gotta be in the club to give and receive one. But there's more to it than that also.

Formations? Yeah, some of them are necessary, but the Friday afternoon Safety Brief? No one will mourn its passing.

Again: if it serves a purpose OTHER than tradition, cool. If not. Send it packing.

Response by SFC Harry (Billy) Tison made Apr 3 at 2016 1:33 PM

2016-04-03T13:33:07-04:00

Formations are one of the first places that a young soldier learns discipline, something today's Army is seriously lacking. And I'm talking about the discipline it takes to stand at attention or parade rest without moving. Also, marching in formation can help teach what it takes to work together as a team

Response by SFC Tony Newburey made Apr 3 at 2016 2:45 PM

2016-04-03T14:45:27-04:00

Saluting ROTC CADETS west Pointers and any other ROTC, my last AR15 was for not Saluting a CADET! My argument is he an Officer ??? If so where is the Omission Papers ?????

Response by Cpl Victor Trevino made Apr 3 at 2016 3:02 PM

2016-04-03T15:02:48-04:00

Yes let's make it a more Kinder, Gentler Military. Why is it that people want to see the military like Mamby Pamby Land. What's next? Participation trophies if you get dropped from Speciality Schools. Sad state of affairs our military is becoming when you water shit down.

Response by CPO Brian Pederson made Apr 3 at 2016 3:51 PM

2016-04-03T15:51:17-04:00

I like a Navy that only changes its technology but NOT its traditions. I LIKE to march but I only did it in boot camp; this sucks! I like the first uniform I got but it changed multiple times in my 26 years. This also sucks! If something works, don't fix it!

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Apr 3 at 2016 3:56 PM

2016-04-03T15:56:32-04:00

We don't have "archaic" traditions. We have traditions. Our tribes, as cultures, accepts our long and bloody history of what works and what doesn't work and traditions teach us that. Salutes were to show a person was unarmed, now it is about recognition and respect. Same way tradition demands youth respect seniority, if not in ideas, certainly in deportment.
From all of these experiences we have developed a complex mechanism for evolving young, self-entitled, self-absorbed, largely incompetent young people into intelligent 21st Century warriors capable of handling our US war fighting machine. We have 18 year olds as helmsmen, nuclear missile technicians and all the rest. There is nothing in our traditions that retards the ability of the individual warfighter. To the contrary, these traditions help shape a wildly diverse population into cohesive and functional units. We teach service over self and insist on high integrity standards. While not fashionable, those ideals have a useful place. How many lives have been saved by the selfless devotion to duty of so many brave men and women? We share those stories to remember and honor the warrior spirit. We always set a table for the missing members. We remind each other, we are there for one another. You just don't find this on civvie street.
This is not to say all traditions are good or remain valid. Case in Point at West Point -- the annual pillow fight morphed into mayhem and cadets were injured. Stupid tradition, stop it. Likewise, excessive demands that troops volunteer to help others, for EPR bullets. Volunteerism should be joyful, not mandatory. Look to the purpose of the function and ask if it is still valid.

Response by CH (LTC) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2016 6:47 PM

2016-04-03T18:47:22-04:00

It is called the military, it is not a civilian job. If you want to just have a job ETS and join the civilian population. We have traditions that contribute to good order and discipline. Formations allow leaders to have eyes on their personnel and know they are alive and based on how they appear if there is anything to be concerned about. We have reduced things in the military that I believe have contributed to the lack of good order and discipline. Jr. Enlisted feel entitled to tell an NCO or officer to go xxxx themselves. Though there are things that technology can reduce, like paperwork. As one who came in in 1984 I have seen technology increase the admin work yet decrease ones tactical skills.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2016 6:49 PM

2016-04-03T18:49:54-04:00

Madness. Nothing will replace the effectiveness of passing word in person. We are not corporate America. Traditions set us apart from the highly inefficient civilian world. These things remind us that we are a different breed and our profession of war fighters must not be dependent on technology. If technology becomes our center of gravity the enemy would find it very easy to exploit that vulnerability.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2016 7:15 PM

2016-04-03T19:15:46-04:00

As a Former Airman a lot of the Army traditions weren't really instilled into me but grew into me as I proceeded thru the grades I've held as Squad Leader and than PSG I can say without a doubt that standing in front of formations and engaging the Soldiers in that formation were some of the best times of my career....The rest of the time we spend just being random staff NCOs but those key leader times which are few and far between for a few of us are what helps keep some of us motivated.

Now granted some traditions need to go but formations and saluting the flag are pretty Much core to the profession of Arms...

Any event that embraces the profession of arms and involved good order and discipline to me are the events I believe we should keep....I also stand behind change of responsibility and change of command ceremonies...While not enjoyable for all in formation what these represent to the SM incoming/outgoing are what I consider a key event in life...It doesn't happen often.

Look at the average career progression of an Officer or Enlister Soldier who stays long term...Their are generally only so many events that that epitomizes your individual success as a Soldier and that seems to be the tradition that people are seeming to take issue with....

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2016 7:24 PM

2016-04-03T19:24:45-04:00

A classic example of a comment from a Soldier in the pay grade of E-6, not a Staff Sergeant. No formation? Seriously?

Response by SSG George Hernandez made Apr 3 at 2016 7:42 PM

2016-04-03T19:42:50-04:00

Don't join the military if you don't like tradition.

Response by 1stSgt Brant Young made Apr 3 at 2016 7:51 PM

2016-04-03T19:51:31-04:00

I find it spellbinding that you are actually a Staff Non Commissioned Officer and you just said that. If you think formations are archaic and serve no purpose, there have been a lot of leaders that failed you over the years, or the Army promotion system is broken, or as I suspect, both.

1stSgt Brant Young USMC (Ret.)

Response by Cpl Dean Ditto made Apr 3 at 2016 9:28 PM

2016-04-03T21:28:07-04:00

Proper grammar for one. WERE instead of WAS in your first sentence.

Response by SFC Stanley Nelson made Apr 3 at 2016 9:45 PM

2016-04-03T21:45:04-04:00

Anti-terrorism Level 1, Been doing it for 16 Years, don't you think we should be on Level 2 by now! Also change suicide prevention to suicide awareness. Also cooks, we have MRE's and KBR down range.

Response by LTC Francis Irwin made Apr 3 at 2016 11:45 PM

2016-04-03T23:45:45-04:00

How about shaving? Time to rock an old school civil war beard. Surely we can design a protective mask for the bearded! http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/who-had-best-civil-war-facial-hair-180951965/?no-ist

Who Had the Best Civil War Facial Hair?

Browse these portraits of officers with great facial hair courtesy of the Library of Congress and then vote for your favorite

Response by MSG Tim Gray made Apr 4 at 2016 12:29 AM

2016-04-04T00:29:32-04:00

Forgive me if I'm a bit outdated on current Army protocols and such, but as I sit here retired in my recliner, my two cents will inevitably fall out somewhere! First let me say I'm very proud of our military and all our combined accomplishments to date. But I can't help but be troubled how the leadership at the very top of our forces are failing our soldiers, albeit with arm twisting by politicians and the outcries of John Q. Public. But I think we're getting too soft on our warriors when we can't even train them in an environment that doesn't come close to actual battlefield environments. Whatever happened to the old days of drill instructors subjecting trainees to strenuous but achievable standards. Yes I was fortunate that I endured those physical, mental and spiritually demanding 13 weeks of IET back in the early 80s. And as a result the weak ones were weeded out, reclassify or on occasion physically motivated by a DS. I believe a good majority of us found a commitment to a cause, not an alibi to substandard achievement. We sweated and it gave us reason to have pride. We were ragtag when we got there and left at the least, soldiers willing to complete our first enlistment. By no means is what is happening in the military restricted to our force structure, it has permeated society as a whole. I'm steadfast in my belief that our soldiers/sailors/airman/marines are the best in the world. But my lord you guys/ladies deserve the best.

Response by A1C Tracy Blackburn made Apr 4 at 2016 12:37 AM

2016-04-04T00:37:30-04:00

Formations are an essential tool in maintaining discipline and unit cohesion! On top of that they convey the pride and history in the US military. You're way off base here!

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 1:13 AM

2016-04-04T01:13:04-04:00

I know it's not really a tradition, but I'd like to see them overhaul officer recruiting in favor of "promoting from within"; which is a practice that you see a lot in the private sector, instead of picking somebody off the street just because he had a good GPA in college instead of somebody who's already in a knows how the system works.

Response by Sgt Clarence Mathis made Apr 4 at 2016 2:16 AM

2016-04-04T02:16:42-04:00

in my marine corps you learn the old so when the new doesn't work you still know how to finish the mission

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 3:33 AM

2016-04-04T03:33:16-04:00

Stand-to

Response by Bob Goodworth made Apr 4 at 2016 3:45 AM

2016-04-04T03:45:37-04:00

In the Australian Army we per se salute officers vehicles unless they are carrying "star officers". The only time a salute is given we the occupant is recognized at entry point to garrisons and unit HQ.

Response by Bob Goodworth made Apr 4 at 2016 3:46 AM

2016-04-04T03:46:35-04:00

Guys and girls should read "don't "

Response by SSgt Christopher Brose made Apr 4 at 2016 4:26 AM

2016-04-04T04:26:37-04:00

Bosun's whistles. A ship's 1MC broadcasting system made them obsolete over half a century ago.

Response by MSG(P) Roger Billings made Apr 4 at 2016 4:52 AM

2016-04-04T04:52:17-04:00

All the military is based on regulations it has to be remember you fight for a democracy you didn't join one. Has to be that way or how could order someone you know to their possible death. In that they are based on a lot of tradition. If tradition dies do does the foundation of the organization

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 7:30 AM

2016-04-04T07:30:08-04:00

Hands in the pocket. Ok I get it no go at formation and official functions. But come on at -10 in the motorpool. Lets have some common sense here.

Response by SPC Greg Andle made Apr 4 at 2016 7:55 AM

2016-04-04T07:55:05-04:00

One reason we have so many tasks, as you so deemed uneeded/waste of time, are also done for discipline, tradition, and teach basic skills/responsibility. Todays Army, and I will not pull any punches, lacks a lot of that. Same thing for shining the old black leather boots. Not only did it look better than a hershey bar wiped across you LPC's, it taught discipline, built honor, and taking care of equipment. Just like D&C used to be a huge part of military training. Buried in what some see as simple tasks and a waste of time is valuable lesson

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 8:30 AM

2016-04-04T08:30:01-04:00

You are one of the reasons this military of ours is going to shit ..... We need to get back to the basics go back to tradition and stop making shit easy for these troops we were not built on being soft we are the best military force in the world not because we babyed the troops but because we have the hardest training of any other military let's stop with all this soft shit and if you want to change the military change it back if anything and stop making our troops soft

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 8:43 AM

2016-04-04T08:43:25-04:00

I'm not a fan of foregoing formations. However, the inherently unsafe practice of 24 hour staff duty needs serious rethinking.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 8:55 AM

2016-04-04T08:55:38-04:00

I think the reliance on CBTs for everything and mistaking PowerPoint skills for actual leadership ability are 2 new "traditions" that can go away yesterday. As for your original statement on formations, as you progress and gain experience, you'll see that they are actually a valuable way to get information straight from command level to a large group, so it's a necessary tradition that serves a purpose... although the minutiae can be overdone.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 9:03 AM

2016-04-04T09:03:47-04:00

I forgot to add all the bands that are not of the marching variety... no offense to Tops in Blue, but nobody listens to that anymore and it's kind of a waste of money.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 9:26 AM

2016-04-04T09:26:39-04:00

Do you think about the stupid sh*t before you actually type or say it out loud??

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 9:48 AM

2016-04-04T09:48:03-04:00

People feel the need to talk during morning formation because they feel awkward. If your formation is just to get roll call and put out any changes to the day's schedule then good enough. Formation is still the easiest and fastest way to account for everyone and get a message out to everyone at the same time. E-mail and text are not synchronized, and unless you want to start making people punch in, there is no faster way to get accountability than to ask "you here?" and get a real-time answer "yes".

Response by CSM David Litteral made Apr 4 at 2016 9:55 AM

2016-04-04T09:55:18-04:00

SSG Purham, when I became an SGM, I often felt that SSG was the most dangerous rank in the Army. SSGs are still close enough to the junior grades to be influential to the most junior privates, close enough to the senior grades to get an inside look at how the Army is really run, and feel more gravity toward the former than the latter. As a CSM (7 years, Bn, BDE, and Commandant of Regimental NCOA) I believe it even more than ever. You think formations are obsolete? Perhaps you recall playing the telephone game as a youth? One person tells something to the next with the instructions to pass it on. By the time it comes back around, it only vaguely resembles the original message. Is that how you propose to put out information to the troops? If you study warfare (and you should if you want to move up the ranks-and be a good leader) you will read how the military evolved and how many of the traditions came about. However, one of the things that has not, and will not change is the human element. People are still people. Ask yourself this: how do you feel about leaders you never see? Formations may be the only time soldiers get to see their leadership. Should formations be limited to one per day? I can agree with limiting the amount of time or times soldiers have to stand in formation.
I encourage you to study Frederick the Great, Field Marshal Helmeth von Moltke (the elder), and Vegetius (De Re Militari). By studying those three, you will better understand the soldier beginning in earlier times (selection, training, etc), Frederick the Great stayed in the field with his men. He was a true warrior-king. Von Moltke was the father of the modern Operations Order and he used the modernization of Prussia's forces to smoke France during the Franco-Prussian War when time and time again, Napoleon had ridden across Prussia taking what he wanted.
Sure, there are traditions that need to be changed- or updated. Do you know why the military wears hats outdoors? Because the helmets Roman soldiers wore were so uncomfortable that soldiers didn't like to wear them in battle. Wearing hats all of the time desensitized the soldiers which made the helmets a little more tolerable in battle.
Good luck with your career, it goes by fast so make sure you (and your troops) continue self-development. You will need the education when you leave the service.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 9:56 AM

2016-04-04T09:56:25-04:00

Changing traditions isn't something that has to be done except for aesthetics. Generally, when a tradition conflicts with a new way of doing things, it gets replaced. Occasionally, an old dog holdout might need a reminder as to why things need to change, but otherwise not much analysis is needed. First formation, for instance, is still the fastest and most effective way to account for everyone for the duty day and share any changes in schedule. There is nothing childish about what we do, or adult about change. The only thing we need to mind is when a tradition is actually in the way of mission....but by and large, those don't last past the first defeat. Don't sweat it...it's just that you don't like them :)

Response by PFC Robbie Cannon made Apr 4 at 2016 10:01 AM

2016-04-04T10:01:28-04:00

We need to go back to traditions. The military shouldn't be a here's your trophy thing. Freaking pansy liberals are killing America one step

Response by SGT Deuce Bartlett made Apr 4 at 2016 10:06 AM

2016-04-04T10:06:27-04:00

Promoting people via the boards system without actual verification that said soldier is actually competent technically in their MOS. Testing needs to come back for technical MOS', rather than promoting people because they have a high PRT score yet cannot actually perform their job.

Response by Cpl Kent Mitchell made Apr 4 at 2016 10:38 AM

2016-04-04T10:38:22-04:00

The salute isn't a sign of servitude. It is a greeting between warriors, shared with mutual respect. I still go with the theory, "If it moves, salute it." "If it doesn't move, paint it green."
Semper Fi

Response by MSgt Eric Roseberry made Apr 4 at 2016 10:44 AM

2016-04-04T10:44:31-04:00

Well, there is that long standing tradition of bitching

Response by SGT Jim Filey made Apr 4 at 2016 10:58 AM

2016-04-04T10:58:18-04:00

Get rid of stress cards, go back to full weapons training, formation drills, get political correctness out of the military.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 11:20 AM

2016-04-04T11:20:04-04:00

Shaving: I don't want to hear about the tired arguments over facial hair impeding a proper seal. Shaving came out of a response to the 60's/hippie generation of no conformity and anti establishment. We are currently the only military in the world that requires shaving, it's cultural, not tactical and has no bearing what so ever on individuals discipline. The Army can still have grooming standards while letting men be men and have facial hair.
Also, the Military strongly suggests [especially in Europe in light of recent terrorist attacks] to blend in. News Flash, we stand out like sore thumbs with shave heads and faces. Its cultural, not unlike tattoos and needs to be modernised.

Response by SPC Chris Bailey made Apr 4 at 2016 11:23 AM

2016-04-04T11:23:16-04:00

Well i'm a cold war child so i believe the only thing that should change is a heavy psych eval to make sure you can handle being a solider cuz with what we're producing for young people is pathetic. Why change the military to accomadate sensitive cowards?

Response by SSG Mike Wyche made Apr 4 at 2016 12:00 PM

2016-04-04T12:00:15-04:00

If you don't like the traditions that are the foundation of the military then it maybe time you get out. The weakening of our standards is what has put our military in jeapordy.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 12:25 PM

2016-04-04T12:25:23-04:00

I only have one. Unit songs. Either re written or eliminated.

Response by PO2 Justin Songer made Apr 4 at 2016 12:53 PM

2016-04-04T12:53:34-04:00

Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airman in todays military need to learn that if they were ment to have feelings or an option. They would have been issued one. Its only been a few years since i served, but i have seen a rapid downfall in the quality of troops bein put out. Safe zones and political correctness has no place in the military. You are there to do your job and not act like a little bitch. "Oh, its too hard", "My DIs and COs are not being fare". Tough fuckin titty.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 12:56 PM

2016-04-04T12:56:58-04:00

Respect for our traditions and heritage is important. While they may seem archaic at times, they link us to all the warriors who have gone before us.

Response by MAJ Daniel Flynn made Apr 4 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-04-04T13:07:10-04:00

I used to do it when I was enlisted and now they do to me at the gate, even though I'm retired. Can't get rid of every tradition, IMHO.

Response by PO1 Mark Smith made Apr 4 at 2016 1:37 PM

2016-04-04T13:37:30-04:00

Tell me this, how is someone supposed to survive on the battle field when the batteries are dead in all this modern technology. I you become reliant upon electronics to guide your way, you will become lost when the batteries die. You need to learn ow to do it the old fashion way to survive. The world has become to dependent upon technology, very few people can function when the computer does not work. So young man get your head out of your ass and man up.

Response by SPC Daniel Bowen made Apr 4 at 2016 3:04 PM

2016-04-04T15:04:22-04:00

I have to agree with SFC Zach K on this. There have been certain traditions that could potentially be dropped later on, but as SFC Zach K shared "The fundamentals are the foundation for virtually everything we do, and many Soldiers now believe that technology somehow circumvents actual knowledge."
This statement alone supports the idea that initially what became tradition was set up to be basic standards for a tactical and training reason. As I like to say "there is a method behind my madness". When I was in we had our annual 25 mile ruck march. As an infantryman, even with all of the rucking we did, a 25 miler seemed like a tradition rather than necessary training. I mean, when do we ever expect to march 25 miles? The idea is we train as we fight and prepare for the worst case scenarios. In war, those scenarios come up more than we ever wish them too. The moment we think the mission is going by our plan is the moment half or radios and GPSs fail. Its when our four-wheeler or humvee breaks down and we have to be 8 clicks out in just a few hours. Rucking simply wasn't just a "pain in the ass", it hardened our minds and showed us how far we can go even under all those pains.
As for formations, those are the simplest forms of AARs or simply notifying everyone at once. It is organization at its finest while being able to create effective communication throughout the unit. Such a simple or aged-out "tradition" sets us up as a unit for the important things. The military today has lost sight on a lot of things when adding all of this new technology, training standards and SOPs. The moment we lose sight of those small things that set us up for success or forgetting the very basics, we set ourselves up for failure. Any time our equipment fails we fall back to the basics.
Our basics are tradition, and our traditions are basic.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Apr 4 at 2016 3:14 PM

2016-04-04T15:14:14-04:00

I can think of none

Response by Sgt Skyler Bergeron made Apr 4 at 2016 3:34 PM

2016-04-04T15:34:45-04:00

This is a joke right?

Response by SGT Jon Ehmke made Apr 4 at 2016 3:48 PM

2016-04-04T15:48:05-04:00

I think this needs to be clarified: WHY do you think formations are outdated and pointless? What purpose do formations serve and how would you maintain that without losing things like discipline, mass communication and inspection, or unit cohesion?
Traditions evolved from a necessity. In this case, formations have been around for thousands of years because they provide so many useful benefits with little to no cost aside from a few minutes worth of time. Formations build the unit as a whole when we see each other together side by side every day. Formations provide discipline because nobody WANTS to stand there in perfect rows in all weather. Formations reinforce structure, consistently and visually reminding us of the chain of command and how we interact at the different levels (how do Pvts interact with NCOs, NCOs with officers, and so on). Formations are also the basic building block of unit maneuver. Whether it's a PT formation or COB formation, it has as its main focus the unit working together as a whole.
If you take that away, you end up with a bunch of individuals doing their own thing. Every army that has ever tried that route has lost to an army that enforced structure, discipline, and cohesion through formations.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 4:16 PM

2016-04-04T16:16:19-04:00

Absolutely! How about teleworking? Ranger School by correspondence? Company command online? Maybe a fitbit that gives you credit for the walking you did the day before the PT test run?
Are we not doing enough profoundly stupid things to the Army that we can't hold off on the spectacularly stupid?
Go spend some time with a rifle squad, then come back and tell me about evolving into adulthood. That is not the dynamic, and it can't be.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 4:21 PM

2016-04-04T16:21:31-04:00

This coming from a SSG is proof the Army has taken a serious turn for the worst and may never recover. Everything begins with simple discipline. Making formations, on time, in correct uniform, in a clean and serviceable uniform all breed basic discipline, and it continues to amaze me how many soldiers and NCO's have a problem even today, doing those simple things. And you think the answer is to abolish the formation rather than hold Soldiers accountable!

Response by CPO Michael Butler made Apr 4 at 2016 4:44 PM

2016-04-04T16:44:40-04:00

I think that you should suck it up, Buttercup. You are free to leave at any time if it offends you. Why do you think the entire Military should change just to please your Pansy Ass.

Response by SGT Jon Ehmke made Apr 4 at 2016 4:49 PM

2016-04-04T16:49:16-04:00

Looking over a few of your replies and additions, I don't see anything to change my point. In your original post you said formations were obsolete. You did not specify WHICH formations and under what conditions. You made a generalization that included ALL formations for ALL purposes under ALL conditions. This is why people don't seem to get your point. What's really odd is that you ADMIT that formations are necessary for many purposes - just not the one you have in mind.
If your post had said that Accountability formations (first formation for PT, work formation, and COB formation) done in garrison were obsolete, you might have more traction.
I served in the 90's before all the mass social media cell phone/texting thing happened. We often had, as you described, leadership huddles where the senior NCOs met and made plans and then told their platoons informally. Final formations were often at the discretion of the 1SG or CO. If neither had anything important, then we held a platoon formation of "PT tomorrow, be ready for X,Y, and Z - go home."
The very thing of trusting lower level NCOs actually happened. And I'm sure it still happens. I think the majority of the useless formations involve a high ranking officer and the need to stroke his/her ego, but those do not happen every day (unless you have a CO or 1SG with an ego trip). All of the other reasons for why formations are necessary that I (and many others) explained earlier still exist.
Regardless, there will always be a need at some times for the whole company/battalion to form up regardless of whether you agree with it being valid or not.

tl;dr - You can't sit there and say formations should be gotten rid of and then turn around and say that there are many reasons why formations are useful except for the one type you find inconvenient. If you don't like accountability formations, then become a 1SG and don't have any.

Response by SGT Mark Shinn made Apr 4 at 2016 5:13 PM

2016-04-04T17:13:45-04:00

I think the Rangers are too special. The rest of the Army should feel special as well. I say we give the entire Army Tan berets! And the Rangers can wear orange ones! Then, in 15 years, we take their berets again!!! Everyone wins! Right?

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Apr 4 at 2016 5:48 PM

2016-04-04T17:48:56-04:00

TRADITION! (Fiddler On The Roof). Funny you mention "formations". Here comes a sea story. A great Naval Tradition. All good sea stories start with "this is a no shitter". I was at "C" school after being on a submarine for many years. This is at Great Mistakes errr Lakes. So change of command for the base. The powers that be decided EVERYBODY had to participate and march in formation. Small problem was that us E-5s and E-6s in C school couldn't march in formation to save our lives. Worse than recruits. They tried everything even broom handles. Finally, even the Chiefs gave up and the C school just had 4 kissups march for Change Of Command. The rest of us went off on a 3 day weekend. :)

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 5:49 PM

2016-04-04T17:49:51-04:00

Im really hard pressed to think of anything that should be gotten rid of. Formations are the cornerstone of Accountability. Allows you to come together as a unit get the word passed out to everyone and address any issues as a unit.

Response by Sgt William Barr made Apr 4 at 2016 5:57 PM

2016-04-04T17:57:20-04:00

the young people want to get rid of things they don't want but it maybe what makes us the greatest military in the world.

Response by CW4 Larry Curtis made Apr 4 at 2016 6:08 PM

2016-04-04T18:08:21-04:00

I have been retired from active service for 22 years now, so much of what is now considered modern technology was probably never even a thought when I served. I have read several comments which are critical of relying upon GPS. I believe these are both valid and invalid. However, I DO agree that GPS is a tool which should only be relied upon to supplement your map reading skills, if you are in an environment which will allow it. The most likely reason so much faith has been placed in GPS technology, however, is probably rooted in being challenged with navigating in the Iraqi desert where there is an absence of well-defined terrain relief and vegetation. As an Army Aviator, the GPS we had available to us in limited supply during Operation Desert Storm was a significant key to our success and we may not have had the same level of success without it. The map sheets I was given proved to be about as useful for pure navigation as a sheet of number 10 grit sandpaper with grid lines drawn on it. The most useful attribute of the maps was that they provided grid location, but correlating terrain features and visually maintaining your position along your route at 90 knots or faster was pretty much impossible, and when getting into a hostile area you had better know precisely where you are in relationship to the world around you. We would have been totally screwed, however, if there had been any EMP. There's always something, isn't there? Which begs the question of whether anyone is considering the effects of EMP should things ever go nuclear? Emp will kill all of this modern technology if it is not properly shielded and we will all be forced to rely on the most rudimentary and basic navigation skills which EVERYONE had better possess.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 6:08 PM

2016-04-04T18:08:38-04:00

I think formations are perfectly fine, as long as you don't have your Marines (or other appropriate servicemembers) standing out there for half an hour before the presiding officer shows up. Plus, it's the best way to pass information and take roll. "If you're not 15 minutes early, you're late" - Get that out of here. Let our people be adults and show up on time. I'm usually a five-minutes early guy, but there's no need to put someone on blast unless he is in fact LATE (meaning if you are supposed to be at work/in formation at 0700 and you show up at 0700:01, you are wrong). Another thing that needs to go away is mass punishment. Hold the individual accountable. What good does punishing a Marine as well as his peers do when they can't effectively correct that individual's defficiency without it being called hazing? Lastly, Field Day. That's the weekly room inspection where if they find a speck of dust or a smudge in three places, you fail and get in trouble. I think if your room is generally clean (meaning trash taken out, beds made, everything locked and neat), then that's all that should be required. If you somehow mess that up, then you should be held accountable and then have your room white-gloved so you learn your lesson.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 6:10 PM

2016-04-04T18:10:19-04:00

24 hr CQ shifts seam to be out dated and need to go away. I have to compleat a trips before a 4 day pass and promise to get 8 hrs of sleep before I drive and take breaks every 4 but it ok for me to be awake fore almost 30 hrs then drink home?

Response by PFC Daniel Starrett made Apr 4 at 2016 6:15 PM

2016-04-04T18:15:37-04:00

In regards to the original question, I agree that some things are outdated. However, with that said I have to completely disagree with getting rid of formations. Formations are a very needed form of accountability. Way too many young men and women go into the military with absolutely no discipline to speak of or accountability (personal). Many of them would skip work or go awol and without formations, it would be fairly hard to prove they are missing without leave, versus just skipping duty.

One thing that DOES need to change (and maybe it has since I was in, but I find it hard to believe) is the blatant discrimination between married and single soldiers. When I was in, Single soldiers got ALL the shit details. if something came up, the leaders automatically went to the barracks. Now, in the case of a power outage and the arms room needing to be physically guarded, I agree you grab from the barracks first if it is after hours, because they ARE already there. But after that first shift, you BETTER have married personnel integrated into the watch as well. Another example, is many bases or companies, that do not allow a single soldier to have their own apartment or home outside of the barracks. A single soldier should be able to live the lifestyle he wants just as a married soldier does. If the single soldier wants to spend his hard earned money on an apartment where he can "escape" from the daily grind for twelve hours and cook his own meals instead of going to the mess hall, she should be able to do so.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 6:22 PM

2016-04-04T18:22:35-04:00

The basic traditions are the ones we need to hold on too dearly.. In the last 5 yrs the military has fallen apart.. The marines still carry on they traditions, even to a good old ass whooping. The rest of the branches are following to closely to the commercial business aspect big problem, we are not a civilian company. The more u implement civilian programs, the more u will see these fools coming in and acting like a civilian..

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 6:24 PM

2016-04-04T18:24:15-04:00

The only thing I'm going to say about this is "you're an idiot". OK one more thing, you must be part of the but hurt generation of the military. Man up and NCO up.

Response by MAJ Patrick Hairston CISSP, AWS Certified Cloud Architect made Apr 4 at 2016 6:56 PM

2016-04-04T18:56:38-04:00

Our military is about tradition. D&C is one of them. It's the reason our military is the most trusted organization on earth. We don't bend. We don't change. If we do, that's the day we fail. Don't try to change what works. Being in a formation, learning to walk in formation, learning to run in formation, these are all military lessons that should never go away. Working as a team. Putting a visual to accountability at the squad level is invaluable. No disrespect, SSG Purhan, but that's a stupid idea you have.

I shudder for the future of this nation.

Response by SSG(P) Ell Pizarek made Apr 4 at 2016 6:58 PM

2016-04-04T18:58:04-04:00

Once you get rid of formations, why not get rid of marksmanship, NBC training, keeping the motor pool lined up. Then why don't you all wear green beret. I retired when I did because the military was getting to relaxed. Storing all of the units COMSEC in a single safe with everyone knowing the combo, soldiers not knowing how to communicate, and officers that refused to issue the basic load when deployed to a combat zone. What has happened to traditions, unit and self pride. It is a mindset like this, wanting to do away with these things that lead to poor moral, and the inability to perform under pressure. You said that if someone is missing from formation you would go to his home and look for him, really! I never had to do this in 20 years of service. Go figure

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 7:04 PM

2016-04-04T19:04:12-04:00

With the change to a uniform that isn't pressed, boots that need not be shined, and grooming standards relaxed; where is our ability as leaders to assess a Soldier to happen? Pressed uniforms, highly shined boots, and adhering to grooming standards was the norm when I entered the Regular Army in the early 80's. It was a relatively easy way to spot a problem with who would normally be a squared away Soldier to someone who was having a problem. Sure, you had the dirt bag in any unit, the one that was shown the proper way to press a uniform and shine boots only to show up for formation with one boot shined and half the uniform pressed; usually alternating sides. Tradition is what sets us a part from civilians; from knowing the difference between a Master Guns and a 1SG in the Corps to knowing that I have to plot a grid right and up. Everything has a historical context that ties us together; from my Vietnam era brother in law to my WWII Great Uncle to my Irish great-grandfather who resisted the English and my German great grandfather who served in the Kaiser's Army in the 1880's. Our tradions are what keep us together closer than family. Without the tradition and training NCO's lose the history of their branch, Soldiers lose the context of their branches function, and WE lose the sense of comraderie that allows us to function as a whole made up of many parts. E Plurbus Unum, From Many, One. Our traditions in a large part are our discipline. If we start whittling away at the traditions where do we stop?

Response by Cpl Victor Trevino made Apr 4 at 2016 7:08 PM

2016-04-04T19:08:59-04:00

Purham you are a shitbird of an NCO. It's obvious. Thank God there are not many like you, who want to have a Mamby Pamby Military. Pathetic. NCO's like you would have been hit with "friendly fire" spouting that bullshit.

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Apr 4 at 2016 8:06 PM

2016-04-04T20:06:00-04:00

I'm too lazy to scroll down. Did someone say saluting a officer's car was a pain? SrA, 1 each I believe. I'm curious as to what base you're stationed seeing that decals are gone and the only officers with staff cars are Colonels and Generals. Are there that many driving around causing arm cramps?

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 8:38 PM

2016-04-04T20:38:37-04:00

Hats

Response by SGT Joshua Coppola made Apr 4 at 2016 8:48 PM

2016-04-04T20:48:08-04:00

According to this guy, I guess the Marine Corps should also be done away with. It's tradition, it's heritage, own it, be proud of it. Yeah it can be a bit of a hassle sometimes, but it's part of the job, it's part of the lifestyle.

Response by SGT Brian Dimoff made Apr 4 at 2016 9:34 PM

2016-04-04T21:34:11-04:00

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are not in Combat Arms. I also expect more from a Staff Non Commissioned Officer no matter your MOS or background.
These traditions instill DISCIPLINE. Something that is starting to fall behind these days. It kind of began to go out the door when we stopped wearing BDUs and polishing boots. I had multiple uniforms and pairs of boots ranging from Monday morning formation all the way to field uniforms that would never see the light of day in a garrison environment. We all did back then, and if you didn't, you stood out as a dirt bag. If a soldier cannot take the pride to ensure that even the smallest thing is done not just to standard, but above it... what is to say that same soldier will be paying attention in a combat environment and notice a potential ambush or IED?
The operationalenvironment is another animal completely and what goes when you areliving out of a truck/tent/conex-box having wet wipe showers, and eating expired MREs is never what should go in garrison.
We NEED those traditions back, we need to have D&C, we need to take pride in being not just a warrior culture, but being professional men and women that embody the greatest part of our nation.
Wearing that uniform means being something greater than yourself and most of the time doing things that are uncomfortable and unpleasant.
Honor tradition, uphold the standard, and ensure that you lead by example while ensuring your soldiers the same.
The Army is NOT a corporation, and the closer we get to being one, the less effective we are at defending our Constitutional Republic.

Response by SSgt Kyle D. made Apr 4 at 2016 10:51 PM

2016-04-04T22:51:18-04:00

Basic dog and pony show things. You know, when tons of people get voluntold to do something just so some brass can watch and smile. Security Forces post briefings are good examples. Why would you give the chaplain a post briefing about your weapon, ammo, equipment or post limits...? He's the chaplain. He has no idea what you're talking about and only listens because it's fun to watch someone rattle off info for him.
Another one is computer training for EVERYTHING (and yes, this is becoming the "tradition"). We need to go back to DOING first aid like in basic. Not watching it on a PowerPoint. EVERYONE should be CLS certified. Seems like we're cutting corners to be cost effective, but we don't care about being combat/mission effective.

Response by CPL Tyson Burns made Apr 4 at 2016 11:35 PM

2016-04-04T23:35:01-04:00

Get rid of that fucking useless laundry bag (that we're not allowed to use) on the end of the bunk.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Apr 5 at 2016 12:14 AM

2016-04-05T00:14:41-04:00

Formation is about the unit. We have multiple lines of communications, but we don't have many other opportunities form soldiers to see that they are a part of the whole. It also lets everyone in the unit hear the same message at the same time. In a multi level structure it provides a bit of equality within the ranks.

Response by SFC Phillip Smith made Apr 5 at 2016 12:20 AM

2016-04-05T00:20:54-04:00

Formations are important, it is a way to make sure everyone is accounted for and if missing steps can be taken to find the missing person. Also it is a way to get the information from the source and not 2nd or 3rd hand pass-down. The people complain about formations are the ones that complain everything from the sun being up to whatever.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 12:30 AM

2016-04-05T00:30:58-04:00

These are the kind of ideas that are causing us to loose discipline and therefore effectiveness. We need to return to the days relying on good old fashioned face to face accountability and information flow.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 12:33 AM

2016-04-05T00:33:31-04:00

Negative. It all needs to remain. Our forefathers gave us our heritage and traditions. If you don't like having to salute you need to find another profession

Response by SPC Michael Bailey made Apr 5 at 2016 1:39 AM

2016-04-05T01:39:46-04:00

Well we almost NEVER use D&C with our rifles. Namely because to use the M4 you'd have to lean WAY over and it'd look stupid. But, you should still know it. Honestly I felt like I was missing out on a lot of things that might have been important or rooted me in the traditions of the past. During the early years of GWOT we were so focused on getting shit done over seas that we let a lot of the not-important but still grounding traditions fade away. Even the simple act of shining boots and starching your uniform for motor pool Monday seems to me like an important tradition that we've lost. Carrying around a "blue book," Sergeant's time, payday activities, all of these were things that existed when I joined but ceased to exist when I left.

I will be the first to grant that garison stuff tends to be bullshit, but as long as there's a reason to that bullshit I think we shouldn't be so quick to toss it in the toxic burn pile downwind of the barracks.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 2:01 AM

2016-04-05T02:01:03-04:00

Young man, it is the Military, not a college campus. You should have learned about customs, courtesies, and why we keep those old pesky things around. Even until the day I retired, though they were often long, cherished my time both in and leading formations. I am in no hurry for my military to relinquish our traditions. Though computers have replaced much of our antiquated equipment, traditions of customs and courtesies have not and should not. I pray you do not continue this nonsense into your leadership roles! There is nothing more that brings the spirit of pride to me than a military parade, ceremony, or funeral!

Response by PO3 John Caulfield made Apr 5 at 2016 2:17 AM

2016-04-05T02:17:49-04:00

Obozo has this current military at an all time low, slowly shrinking it. Im see that just the opposite needs to be reenforced. No gays, no women in combat, and each branch that has their own traditions should be upheld and respected. No bs about gay or women in combat.... its not there and u can justify it with pilots and such. Get back to the basics and really make other countries like russia, syria, iran, or any country u want put here and we are the laughing stock of this world.

Response by SPC Pete Zuniga made Apr 5 at 2016 2:23 AM

2016-04-05T02:23:42-04:00

Putting my hands I'm my pockets, it wasn't aloud when I was serving.

Response by Sgt John Cantillon made Apr 5 at 2016 2:57 AM

2016-04-05T02:57:36-04:00

Killing is a tradition that military bodies could profitably do less of. The Irish army is the military wing of a neutral country and engages internationally in peace-keeping duties only. The Irish police are mostly unarmed and their name is GardaI Siochana which means Guardians of the Peace in Gaelic. USA could learn from this. The hundreds of USA American military bases in hundreds of other peoples countries and the regular USA bombings of other nations, assassinations etc. for economic and political reasons do not sit well with the stated fair dealings philosophy of USA. USA military are the enforcement and punitive tools/pawns of a corrupt ecologically unsustainable wasteful and greedy lifestyle. Bringing Democracy to others by killing them was old already when the Spanish were slaughtering South Americans. Enough. The budget for USA military aggression could feed,clothe, house, and educate millions of poor Americans and others.

Response by SSG Eagle Tovar made Apr 5 at 2016 5:14 AM

2016-04-05T05:14:44-04:00

I can tell you four reasons why the Army needs to actually roll back the clock: Morale, Proficiency, Discipline, Esprit de Corps. The United States Army isn't about following anything resembling a corporate mindset. The basic function of the Army is to, when necessary to ensure the safety and security of the United States, break things and hurt people.

The basic function of the Soldier is to close with and destroy the enemy by means of fire, maneuver and shock effect.

Staff Sergeant, formations, drill and ceremonies and the manual of arms exist to reinforce the Soldier's place in his or her unit, as a part of the unit--not as an individual. As THE team--not just a "team member".

If your Soldiers can not operate and maintain every weapon in your arms room; can not march in a straight line or is slack on military discipline or history--it is up to YOU, Staff Sergeant, to ensure that those items are taught and reinforced. Someone can operate a piece of equipment all day long, but it is the Soldier that ensures the completion of the mission.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 5:15 AM

2016-04-05T05:15:37-04:00

Sometimes we need to leave traditions and customs in place. Without them many here would not be the military person they have become. My thoughts.
This captures that sentiment.
2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzO9YTMDksc

2CR: Legacy of 73 Easting

Veterans of the Battle of 73 Easting met with the soldiers of 2nd Squadron, 2nd Cavalry Regiment to share their experiences and to commemorate one of the las...

Response by SrA Roger Titus made Apr 5 at 2016 5:36 AM

2016-04-05T05:36:37-04:00

Why change with the times? well for one Military is about tradition, done by our fathers, grandfathers and so on, for generations, you cant make a strong soldier without discipline, structure and a bit of humility . I remember my first five minutes at lackland afb, right after we got off the bus.... everyone stood in a formation of sorts. first thing our D.I. did was ... Pick em up ...put em down for twenty minutes or so, why was this necessary, well it took fifty people from across the country of different origins, ethnicities, and cultures. it was our first time as a cohesive unit and that was the beginning a all these young mens lives iin the service. if your fellow soldiers aren't at the same level as the next guy they will be inneficiant in a combat related incident and wet their pants. we are not there to think for oourselves but to think about our unit and our brothers next to us. so get off your lazy asses and stop whining. you didn't join the military for a free ride. you joined to become standup members of society and join the brotherhood for life...fucktards.

Response by SGT Ernie Reitz made Apr 5 at 2016 5:48 AM

2016-04-05T05:48:11-04:00

Stop your crying! If you do not like the structure in the Military get out!!!

Response by TSgt Harry Stafford made Apr 5 at 2016 6:05 AM

2016-04-05T06:05:25-04:00

Nothing. We need to STOP..wimpifying our military.

Response by SPC Chris Halpin made Apr 5 at 2016 6:08 AM

2016-04-05T06:08:16-04:00

I was stationed at Fort Sam...common task testing was done rather infrequently...and core items such as navigation/pacing were not part of the tasks....which made many of us feel like it was a "club" because we sure could put on a hell of a parade for retirees or change of command...come on, you know that is real army shit.

Response by CPT Quentin von Éfáns-Taráfdar made Apr 5 at 2016 6:21 AM

2016-04-05T06:21:28-04:00

If we forsake all of these "useless" military customs and acts we are no longer an army but merely civilians in uniform.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 6:38 AM

2016-04-05T06:38:26-04:00

I'm really starting to dislike RP. I thought it was a professional forum. It's more for cry babies and whiny soldiers to complain about how they aren't getting what they deserve. The Army owes you nothing. Serve with honor or get out. It's that simple. Influence what you can at your level, take care of your Soldiers, and be a good person. The rest will work itself out.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 6:42 AM

2016-04-05T06:42:16-04:00

I think all this liberalism is archaic and nontraditional....

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 7:39 AM

2016-04-05T07:39:24-04:00

I agree with most of you on this subject that tradition is important, but I have to say my opinion is that the promotion board should stop. You use to compete for points but now it's just a go or no go. If that soldiers NCO support channel and there Chain of command thinks there ready that's should be good enough. Not every bode that can get a bunch of questions right can lead troops. But that's my opinion

Response by Barry Davidson made Apr 5 at 2016 8:25 AM

2016-04-05T08:25:01-04:00

Growing up on military bases, and my life experiences beyond, has given me an interesting perspective.

When many of us were children we stood every morning, faced the flag in the classroom, put our hands over our heart, and recited the Pledge of Allegiance. If we were out and about during Reveille or retreat, we stopped what we were doing, faced the direction of the flag on base, put our hands over out heart, and stayed that way until the last note.

For all of you military people... Why, during basic training, was it important that your bed was made just so, socks placed in the proper place, and shirts folded properly? Does any of that make you more combat ready? Many of the younger generation would say that it doesn't, but I disagree. Attention to detail with the Mickey Mouse bulls**t ingrains a habit which does carry over to the details of more important matters. Want to know what else it does?

Well, soldiers are masters of bit**ing - aside from breaking things with moving parts. When you and your squad are in the head scrubbing the floors you're probably complaining to each other unless your first sergeant is within earshot. While you're doing that you're forming a bond with the people who will be in that hole with you one day.

Some of you might be thinking, "What the hell does this guy know? He never served." No, I was not allowed that honor because of a medical condition. Still, the things I learned by osmosis from having lived on military bases for 20 years of my life have served me well.

You all were and are the front line - the line in the dirt/sand. Maybe things like company formations aren't the most necessary. I can't think of a nice way to say this so here goes. If you can't stand in formation for a short period how can you be trusted to hold the line of your squad/platoon's flank when it drops in the pot?

Response by SPC Joe Haney made Apr 5 at 2016 8:49 AM

2016-04-05T08:49:08-04:00

I've been out so long the military has changed, but there's nothing like a formation when you are drunk or hung-over!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 8:58 AM

2016-04-05T08:58:14-04:00

Stand at Parade Rest and attention, salute officers, stop walking and driving our cars to salute the trumpets, wear PT belts in broad daylight. Hold morning formations when there is no important information being put out to lower enlisted, shaving when we don't work with food. Female's hair being allowed to be down to shoulders, but males can't have hair that touches their ears.

Response by SGT Alejandro Sarandrea made Apr 5 at 2016 9:41 AM

2016-04-05T09:41:51-04:00

Formations are necessary. Psychologically, it helps reinforce chain of command. It also helps a soldier learn to follow through with orders even when his/her body is fighting them and their mind disagrees with overall idea. We've all at one point or another screamed "F$%^ This S%$#!" in our minds at one point or another during a long formation, but we stayed there and we rode it out because psychologically our mind kept checking itself for the purpose of preserving chain of command. Its a mental exercise. AND as for Land Nav, military dress, and ultimately building pride in troops--- it doesn't matter the task or drill a leader uses to build his troops up. What matters is the mindset of the leader. What are you as a leader doing to build pride in your troops? The oldest tradition in any of the sister services is the emphasis on good leadership--- follow that tradition and the Army will always be an Army.

Response by 1SG George Endicott made Apr 5 at 2016 10:05 AM

2016-04-05T10:05:32-04:00

Attitudes like that have become what is wrong with the military today...SSG. How can an individual become a SSG and have so little respect for military traditions?

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 5 at 2016 10:26 AM

2016-04-05T10:26:16-04:00

Now, while some are so pissed at my comments. Let me divert you to another topic - that will maybe help drive the point home for you. https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/how-do-we-get-back-to-the-traditional-basics-of-the-miliary

How do we get back to the traditional basics of the miliary? | RallyPoint

My question about "what is considered archaic/traditional that we need to get away from?" The responses were - well read them. I made the intentional absurdity - with valid argument - that formations need to become minimal (up in arms we go!) From an objective viewpoint many of these traditions have faded away. But, now that they are gone and holistically changed the military. How do we go back?

Response by Sgt Harlin Seritt made Apr 5 at 2016 10:26 AM

2016-04-05T10:26:39-04:00

If you would have asked me when I was on active duty, I could have probably rattled off a ton of them. Now that I'm out (been out since '93), I'd say I wouldn't have changed a thing. In fact, I think we should have done more of that stuff as SFC Zach K alludes to. All of it helped me to develop discipline that makes it rather easy for me to do my job today and do it better than almost all. Not because I'm smart (no chance of that :-) ) but rather because I refuse to be outworked.

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 5 at 2016 10:43 AM

2016-04-05T10:43:26-04:00

Everyone says: "we need to go back to the basics", "Traditions shouldn't change!" But, what everyone has seem to miss and/or forget - they have! The basics have now changed. What are they now? Whatever we need them to be for the situation we are in apparently, because we are still redefining ourselves as a modern military. Sure, you can reinforce some land nav - provided you don't get issues from range control, and your risk assessment, and logistics are all in order. Yeah, we can take Soldier to the range all day long - provided the Ammo is forecasted 90-days ago (goes back to planning), the range is laid on (God forbid range maintenance days), and vehicles, fuel, food are all in order. Now, lets look the budget cuts that circumvented the modern leader from training.

Here comes the EST 2000, On-line Mandatory training, and simulators (that have glitches and operations are on M, T, W, Th from 0930-1130/1130-1500) Hey, lets go to the field for a week - not when you have Command & Staff, Training Meeting, 1SG meeting, CSM Meeting, Safety Briefing, and oh by the way, Soldiers have to do barracks maintenance and have to be back in before 1600 Friday for that BN awards Ceremony. How dare you plan to train SSG! So, I now formulate the honest question - what basics are we truly going with?

The military has evolved and changed so rapidly we lost ourselves in the mix. Another thread that is rambunctious at best, all concur we need to keep traditions. Uh, too late. Your Stars, Bars and Chevrons before you took them away for whatever purpose and reason they did - where were you at to yell and fuss about keeping them then? Your results are what we have. Now, moving forward we create new standards and forget the old, because we - logistically - can't bring them back to visit them again anyway. Or do we continue to complain and ETS?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 11:09 AM

2016-04-05T11:09:46-04:00

Ruck marches need to go - it's medically proven that despite whatever shape you are in, ruck marches do 10x as much harm as they do good. Even when properly seated and adjusted they harm your neck, shoulders, back, hips, knees, ankles and feet.

Response by SGT Jamison Calloway made Apr 5 at 2016 11:24 AM

2016-04-05T11:24:33-04:00

Tradition is Tradition as a matter of time and honor leave customs and courtesy alone.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 11:41 AM

2016-04-05T11:41:11-04:00

SFC Randy Purham - I challenge you to identify for me ONE company-sized organization in the Army that benefits from not holding company formations. My BS flag is ready to fly. In addition to putting out information in a concise, efficient manner to ensure that the messages are received, understood, and acknowledged by all, holding a company formation allows the Commander and First Sergeant to interact with their troops and get the pulse of the unit on a routine basis. I'll even go so far as to tell you that the example you provided of a company that holds no formations above the platoon level, where the PL and PSG are getting accountability and then huddling with the command team has some serious issues; not the least of which is a command team that are failing their Soldiers by doing their jobs! There is much an experienced, senior leader can glean from reading a Soldier's body language. Attentive, engaged leaders (the kind who routinely put themselves in front of their troops and look at each of them carefully each day) will know when it's time to pull a Soldier aside and find out what's going on in his or her life that is bothering them and affecting their appearance, bearing or performance. Sometimes platoon-level leaders lack the experience to handle this task. The Army is and always will be a hierarchy. It is not an insult to anyone's intelligence when the next level in the chain of command checks on it's subordinates. That's the way it's supposed to be, and no amount of technological gadgetry should rightfully ever be relied upon to change this.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 11:42 AM

2016-04-05T11:42:56-04:00

Im going to have to disagree. I think a lot of the "old stuff" is rooted in tradition and discipline. Some of the things we do are lame agreed. However, they give young soldiers a structure and discipline that can be transferred on the battlefield and in daily activities. After block leave, I tend to look forward to the old stuff like morning formations and salutes. I think it is an honor to do those things because we are the 1% that have the right to do so.

Response by SSG Waldo Yamada made Apr 5 at 2016 11:43 AM

2016-04-05T11:43:16-04:00

Good morning Staff Sergeant,

I disagree with you with doing away with formations. I believe we still need it to be around a bit more. More of saying it's a tradition then just another norm. The reason is that some companies still travel to and from company events in formation. Some call out cadence some don't that's their discretion. Been to two (one combat support and infantry) Companies to know and understand that it is an easy way to spot out who's been skipping on duty or late when marching to and from a designation. But there is a principle here I will not explain because I think we know it from history to PLDC to know why there's formations for everything. But overdoing it is brutal.

Response by SGM Frederic Smith made Apr 5 at 2016 11:53 AM

2016-04-05T11:53:55-04:00

Customs, Courtesies, Heritage and Traditions are exactly what is wrong with the U.S. Army, in particular, today! There are reasons WHY it is STILL DONE and for all those that think they are "Combat Soldiers" YOU and those that wish to do away with these "Principle" will deteriorate this Army before the very next war. These are the "Tools" that many think are to old for a "Modern" tool box for our Military. "IF" they were used correctly by NCOs who were "Mentors" they would ground and give reason and meaning to young Soldiers and Young NCOs that are complacent and want to do away with something they have no use for or understand. Would you do away with your Families traditions and culture if you thought it was outdated and of no use to further your "Social Outlook and Circles"? For an NCO that "Really Cares" about keeping Pride, Respect, Esprit de Corps and Legacy alive and to "Pass on the Bataan" to their predecessors, those who have given us what we have and "What They Did" in order to have the History we have; it would behoove us to "Stay the Course"! The uniform, the Drill and Ceremonies, the Lessons, the Stories, the Individuals, the Leaders and all that goes into "Reminding US WHY we have a Military in the First Place" Should drive ALL Young Soldiers and Young NCOs to "STUDY" your Army! Study both the Good and the Bad and why, even though you may think it outdated, "Why" it has it's part in our Army!

Response by PO1 Felix Rivera made Apr 5 at 2016 12:11 PM

2016-04-05T12:11:47-04:00

I am not sure as to why I had to learn close-order formation when I was on a ship. However, after doing historical research, found that the tradition of close-order drilling/formation was a primal memory left over from the days when armies really did go into battle that way, shoulder to shoulder. Today it is supposedly about discipline and spirit and the fact that soldiers were at least expected to march. Soldiers do close-order formation to learn elementary tactics: fire and movement, laying down fields of fire, holding a fixed position, assault of a fixed position, marksmanship, leadership in combat, how to kill with a knife, how to kill with your bare hands.

Response by SPC David Willis made Apr 5 at 2016 12:21 PM

2016-04-05T12:21:49-04:00

Not being allowed to put hands in pockets. Somehow shoving them down your pants and grabbing your nuts is more professional than pockets.

Response by MSgt Jeffrey Eastep made Apr 5 at 2016 12:33 PM

2016-04-05T12:33:47-04:00

Hats!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 12:59 PM

2016-04-05T12:59:49-04:00

Sleeves that's all I want

Response by LCDR Bruce Cooley made Apr 5 at 2016 1:45 PM

2016-04-05T13:45:32-04:00

I think that there are very few "archaic traditions", and that as we progress further, the traditions we have will take on even more meaning.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 2:05 PM

2016-04-05T14:05:50-04:00

This kept cropping up on my newsfeed and I didn't have an articulate answer. At least, not one I felt comfortable giving. I was distracted by work and other concerns. But I just came across this video and I think it answers your original question Perfectly. There Is a Reason for Every Thing We Do. You might not understand the Reason yet, or even agree with it (though you will in time) but there IS a Reason. See below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzLzbd-zT4

Navy Seal Admiral Shares Reasons to Make Bed Everyday

Adm. McRaven explains at a University of Texas, Austin commencement speech why making your bed everyday may be the best way to start off your day.

Response by CW3 Lou Peyton made Apr 5 at 2016 2:48 PM

2016-04-05T14:48:53-04:00

Don't forget this is the Army, many have gone through and survived with the standards, suck up you are soldiers. I left many years ago and still miss the mondane things. Still pattern my life around what I learned in the Army. I still thank you for you service.

Response by 1SG Larry Taggart made Apr 5 at 2016 3:33 PM

2016-04-05T15:33:27-04:00

The One thing that draws many to the Army as well as retention is that it is Steeped in tradition. Formations are one of them. The Army can evolve with out losing its traditions like Wear & Appearance. The very notion that communication can be best served via other means, well that is not the only reason for these formations. It gives the 1SG an opportunity to see his/her soldiers. As a 1SG I used this time to eyeball my soldiers and get a feel if more attention to him/her was needed positive or negative. There are many reasons for a Formation other than communication.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 3:51 PM

2016-04-05T15:51:13-04:00

I've been out of Marines since 1998, so I don't know what today's military is like on a day to day basis. In my days as a young LCpl, the LCpl Underground would bitch about all things deemed "hurry up & wait." But, I came to understand these traditions are the foundation of military order & discipline. They connect the generations together. The fundamentals are essential & technology only enhances the fundamentals.

Response by SSG Gilbert Bonilla made Apr 5 at 2016 4:27 PM

2016-04-05T16:27:06-04:00

Being an Old timer I have always respected the old ways of doing things face to face is the only way to train a soldier , how are you to reward a person for doing a good job if you don't know the person

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 5 at 2016 4:29 PM

2016-04-05T16:29:29-04:00

That is my point as well. We can't take something back to the basics of anything if we essentially transformed the whole structure. You can't tell me to Press uniforms and shine boots. You can't tell me to do manual of arms with M16s (unless they are dummy weapons) (good luck finding enough). There are a lot of things that we have moved away from traditionally or changed so much from that when I hear - take it back to the basics - the first thing I think of is "SHUT UP!" What basics? From When? We are rapidly changing as a force. So, when someone says to me about going to the field - take it back to the basics, I think cots, camo-nets, and tents with the pot-belly stoves. I tell Private Joe take it back to the basics - they're looking for a building or hardstand with beds in them.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 4:58 PM

2016-04-05T16:58:45-04:00

Every year about the same time, I wish NCOERs and OERs would go away! I don't know what you deem archaic, but I'd like to see us go back to old school BCT and PT. I'd like to see more emphasis on tactical skills over technical solutions. Basically, I want Soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Sailors to be the hardest people on the planet to kill. Seriously...our PT doctrinal standards are terrible.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 5:32 PM

2016-04-05T17:32:38-04:00

The way we conduct Pt tests and unit type Pt, the current system does not determine if someone is in shape or not. What we need are well designed standardized obstacles courses where score is determined by the number of obstacles successfully negotiated with possible bonus points for completion time. Something like you can get a 90 if you complete the whole course but take forever, but if you can run it fast and just can't tackle a few obstacles you could still pull high 80s or in the 90s.

Response by SSG Don Maggart made Apr 5 at 2016 5:37 PM

2016-04-05T17:37:05-04:00

It took Baron Von Steuben to impose discipline on Washington's Army where to mess where to latrine and where to train up young NCO's fine toss it we'll be back to the good ole Days in .03 flat...MilitantCrip We have Officers you may not value or train them but they exist like pine cones just when you think you'll get 20 winks here one comes magically from the ground.. Toss it make it an all NCO Corps see how far we'll get with piss and vinegar...laffs

Response by LCDR William Breyfogle made Apr 5 at 2016 5:49 PM

2016-04-05T17:49:40-04:00

THE legal underpinnings of the UCMJ -- the automatic assumption that officers come from the ranks of "gentlemen" -- need to be scrapped. The entire code needs to be rewritten to anable Equal Justice Under the Law! So many punishments are applicable to Enlisted only (at sea, enlisted sailors can still be [and are] bread and water for 30 days, while officers mare placed in "hack" (restricted to their rooms.) For more serious offenses, enlisted sailors can be fined, stripped of rank and confined in the brig. Officers suffer "loss of lineal numbers," which hurts their pride (supposedly) and hurts their changes for promotion. When I was an enlisted Photographer's Mate, I frequently was called to the Enlisted Club to photograph the evidence after a fight had broken out. The Captain's Mast results were then published, and the culprits usually got the max. BUT I also was called to the "O" Club to photograph the aftermath of drunken revels (officers are just college kids, after all) and -- funny thing -- NOTHING ever came of it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 6:07 PM

2016-04-05T18:07:37-04:00

My young SSG, the NCO's that have trained you have failed you miserably. You clearly have not connected the dots. The military is not in the business of making widgets or portfolio investments. The military is here to wage war when needed. Having formations trains a person to think I have to be a a certain place at a certain time. Now is the world going to end if JOE is 5 min late in garrison? No but when he is in combat and need to provide fire, medical support, extraction whatever you know his mind is thinking about getting it right. Too many young leaders want to make the military more corporate like and that would turn our war fighters in to pussies. It all has a reason and the end goal for all of it is to be triumphant in combat. Training for combat in combat is to late.

Response by MSG Don Herrmann made Apr 5 at 2016 6:14 PM

2016-04-05T18:14:39-04:00

Traditions are what gives the military its culture, creates cohesion and sets it apart. Too bad some of these traditions interfere with the over sensitive emotions of some.

Response by 1LT Gregory Blevens made Apr 5 at 2016 6:39 PM

2016-04-05T18:39:58-04:00

Interesting that you wrote this, as I see it totally differently. Some of the things I miss most you can only do when you're actually together. I was thinking about my time in the Army the other day and posted this (emphasis on the last sentence): "People ask me all the time if I miss the Army. I always say, "I miss soldiers". People who have been in the Army get it, other people just look at me like "What's that mean?". It would take too long to really explain it, but here's what "I miss soldiers" means:
I miss sitting in a torrential downpour, or a blizzard, or a dust storm, or blazing heat, or biting cold, with other soldiers and laughing about how much it sucks. Like tears down your face, gut hurt laughing.
I miss chocolate milk and a backwoods cigar for breakfast, and that seems totally normal, and having other soldiers ask, "where's the chocolate milk", instead of "what are you doing?"
I miss giving an OPORD and knowing in the back of my mind that what I'm asking the soldiers to do is damn near impossible, and thinking somebody is going to say so, and just getting a "Hooah" at the end and the soldiers moving out and getting it done.
I miss taking 30+ troops for their first round of beers after weeks in the jungle, still covered in mud, and grass, and dirt, and walking into the bar and nobody gives you a second glance.
I miss "NCO business"...it was just another way to tell me as a platoon leader or commander that I didn't need to worry about it...and I didn't.
I miss 550 cord and tape, and knowing if you got the right troop, they could fix dang near anything with it.
I miss the "sweet spot" in the cargo netting of a C-130, where you could just wedge your Kevlar in perfectly, so your head couldn't bob around and sleeping to the sweet, sweet sound of the engines roaring, while your troops were all trying to do the same.
I miss being in formation with soldiers...because it was like lining up for a family photo...no matter what unit I was in."

Response by SSgt Donnavon Smith made Apr 5 at 2016 6:41 PM

2016-04-05T18:41:00-04:00

Basing my worth by how hard the earth pulls me down. Give me a physical standard to meet and leave me the hell alone when I smoke it!!!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 6:41 PM

2016-04-05T18:41:01-04:00

No more need to be brought back to lead good order and discipline. Yes our junior troops have rights but we are here to lead, train, and mentor on this foundation of respect.

Response by SGT John Marecki made Apr 5 at 2016 6:46 PM

2016-04-05T18:46:50-04:00

Sorry if it's a tradition then it's a tradition. We need to remember that all of the things we were taught in the military are in place for a reason. Look at our military now, catering to a new generation. We are soft because we lost focus of what the military is truly about. Discipline and men and women who are to defend this country at all cost. I think once we as a military start to kill off our traditions, then where does the discipline and intestinal fortitude come from.

Response by SSG James Beneda made Apr 5 at 2016 6:49 PM

2016-04-05T18:49:08-04:00

Change of command ceremonies. Not saying that the outgoing shouldn't say goodbye and the incoming shouldn't say hello, but if the ceremony serves any purpose but swelling an officer's ego I'd love to hear it.

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 5 at 2016 8:13 PM

2016-04-05T20:13:22-04:00

A couple of things I have noticed with most of the comments: 1.) Some lack reading comprehension skills. 2.) Most of you are retired, ETSd (some for a really long time) and are commenting about - assuming - things are the way they were when you were in. Here's the reality in a snapshot. Yes, formations serve a purpose and always have. However, today's formation does not - or rarely - have a mass publication of information; Soldiers are not sitting there with notepads writing - that's why it really stop happening this way. The 1SG huddles with Platoon Sergeants pass out info, and it trickles from there. That is in fact the norm. We all know it, but will save face and say otherwise.

I remember the times of having a formation 4-5 times a day 0630, 0900, 11130, 1300, 1630/1700. That was from 1998-2000. 2000-2003 (0630 and 0900), then at 1645 the Platoon Sergeants and 1SG would get together in his office and have "notes" over Peach schnapps and Cigars (Germany). Deployment in 2003, didn't have formations - too worried about IDF. We talked behind walls and 5-tons. 2004-2005 unit PT 630, 0900, 1300 (sometimes), and maybe an occasional 1600. 2005-2008 (0630 - if not in classes or had a class in session) that was it. (TRADOC - we operated by email and text mostly). 2008-2012 (outside of the two deployments) 0630 formation and the occasional BN formation on Mondays and Fridays). 2013-2015 (0630, maybe 0900) and the weekly BN Formations on Mondays - to talk about DUIs over the weekend, and Fridays (first and last) for Awards/Promotions/Safety Briefings. 2015-Now. (0630)...

Now, I am not the only one that experience this type of "battle-rhythm" when it comes to formations. Please spare me the "We need to keep the tradition" speech when at least 15 yrs of Chain-of-Commands haven't kept it. In virtually all of these units, Field grades and Warrants are 99% non-existent at them. What reinforcement of Chain-of-Command is happening? What discipline is being enforced? Oh, I know the answer - Rank has its privileges right? They are busy? Oh OK.... Notice the decline in there about maintaining that "tradition" of formations. Change of Commands and Change of Responsibility is the bulk extent of a special formation. Promotions are usually done in a conference room or motor pool bay (for Seniors) with refreshments. E6 and below would be done at formation on a Friday or Monday then its business as usual!!!

Response by SSgt Nicholas Merchant made Apr 5 at 2016 9:26 PM

2016-04-05T21:26:31-04:00

Without tradition we have no identity knowing and practicing these traditions maintains dicipline creates repitition attention to detail and a strong ethic. When chaos starts and technology fails in order to maintain discipline and restore order is the fundamental base set by traditions. When the shit hits the fan you better know how to dawn your pancho dig in and overcome otherwise you end up covered in it

Response by SGT Randy Melton made Apr 5 at 2016 9:30 PM

2016-04-05T21:30:10-04:00

Your out of your everloveing "&@&$$&&@ Mind are you s@$&@ ing me !!! Get out of the servace and become a civ if you dont want to stand in formation !! Or salute i bet your one of those no honer gutless tick turds running for the door when the colors are comming down!!!

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Apr 5 at 2016 9:42 PM

2016-04-05T21:42:28-04:00

SFC Randy Purham great question, well let me see, ok I will start with the ole leaders-book, this might be debatable, I can see, however with technology and apps on cell phones/iPad and gadgets out there why carry around a 10lb book full of trees and paper/document? Maybe a small leaders-book of no more than 10 pages shrinked...etc., if you going to have one. Just my two cents. I am retired nowadays and I have threw away tons of old leader books since being reitired.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Apr 5 at 2016 9:59 PM

2016-04-05T21:59:40-04:00

SFC Randy Purham I doubt many of the things we used to do are still done in the military but here goes:
Shaving or taking a quick field bath out of a "steel pot"
Shining low quarters and black combat boots.
APFT in combat boots and fatigues. Run dodge and jump, inverted crawl, ...
Starching fatigues or khakis
Rolling an M151 jeep back up after it tipped over.
Telling new troops to get a can of track tension; FM squelch, left handed sky-hook
Purchasing non-permanent markers and combat acetate and reusing the former and one-time use for the latter. Thanks for tagging me SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 11:41 PM

2016-04-05T23:41:42-04:00

What do I feel is an archaic or traditional thing that is no longer necessary? All due respect, SSG, but I imagine you and I greatly differ on what we consider "necessary". Concerning formations: Formations provide the entire unit (E1-E-whatever) with the opportunity to see how each smaller unit is throwing in to accomplish a goal. It affords the 1sg/Commander the opportunity to inspect their troops and is paramount accountability. IMO, if your formations do not possess the aforementioned qualities, than you're doing it wrong. Now that I lead in the civilian world, I wish I had the opportunity to meet with my subordinates on such a regular basis; when we do have meetings they are of the upmost importance; that is what a formation is: a meeting. Granted, my civilian employees sit in chairs during our meetings. They do not salute. They do not shout their reports; but is that not yet another quality that separates my current group of civilians from my brothers in arms?! No matter the occupation, a unit MUST meet from time to time to be effective. The tradition of formations, like many others to include the salute, hail to a time when our unit was young; these Traditions are the very reason why I, a veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan, can sit with veterans of Korea, Vietnam and WWII at the local VFW and swap stories as if we were stationed in the same shit hole and chewed the same dust! Again, I don't intend to be rude, but most people of this nation are in need of a serious history lesson, and these Traditions we hold are the only thing that keeps common soldiers from forgetting as well. Make your soldiers know the significance of June 6th. Educate them on the origins of Traditions such as the salute, coins, and "pinning" new rank. And for the love of God, SSG, be the example. Your men deserve it.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 11:58 PM

2016-04-05T23:58:35-04:00

They are called traditions for a reason. We aren't AT&T. Just the fact somebody wrote a post suggesting we get rid of the traditions that make us unique is enough to let me know it's time for me to retire. It also tells me we have leaders who aren't educating our younger generation about our culture, traditions and heritage.

Response by 1LT Lydia Hales made Apr 6 at 2016 1:01 AM

2016-04-06T01:01:06-04:00

There are some traditions that should be kept. Technology can crash. If you don't know how to do something without technology's help and it fails, you have no back up. We need to know how to do land nav "old school" for that reason.
Traditions also set the military aside from civilian world. It's part of the disciple and identity.
One tradition that needs to return is the wear of service uniforms and an inspection one day a week. the uniform should be a matter of pride. You earned it; wear it, It also gives a time for instruction for uniform care so when you go to NCOES, you actually have a uniform ready and know how to wear it. (Or have they done away with uniform inspection at the schools?).

One tradition that needs to go away is the Pre Formation Formations. You know, the CO says formation at 0800. The platoon officer moves it to 0745 to make sure everyone is on time. The First Seargent has you report at 0730. Your platoon sergeant has you report at 0715. Your squad leader says 0700... So, you show up at 0645 because you have to be "15 minutes early" for formation. Right?

Response by PVT Jeffery Fulkerson made Apr 6 at 2016 4:03 AM

2016-04-06T04:03:02-04:00

There are none,all of what is done is for a reason.

Response by SFC Mark Sutton made Apr 6 at 2016 4:46 AM

2016-04-06T04:46:26-04:00

So, how do you propose the information be put out? email? text? Hay 1SG I never got the information to be here be cause I did not get the email/text! I can see this happening to often. Formations are for accountability, information, and awards. Technology does not replace tradition. You would more than likely lose your mind if your PL tried to give you a counseling over the email. There are a lot of tradition the Army/military needs to rethink/readdress and bring back. So standing in formation for PT, Work call, return from lunch and end of day or how ever your unit does it. That is what needs to happen for the main reason of accountability.

Response by MSG Joel Krall made Apr 6 at 2016 5:36 AM

2016-04-06T05:36:21-04:00

Well... I don't see the Corps changing in the Millennium... the Army went in the wrong direction in my opinion... stress cards, values cards, changeing uniforms every other year... and on and on...

Leadership has been eroding for years...

Response by MAJ Ron Peery made Apr 6 at 2016 7:21 AM

2016-04-06T07:21:37-04:00

SSG Purham, promotions, awards and ceremonies are precisely the type of events that call for a formation. Particularly with promotions and awards, the formation allows the troops to take part in recognizing the outstanding performance those presentations represent. Haven't you ever heard the old saw about awarding in public and correcting in private? Granted, a lot of soldiers throw the medals in a box when they get home and never look at them again, but it is good for morale to recognize their accomplishments in company with their peers. Or would you prefer that your S1 just drop an envelope on your desk next time you are promoted?

Response by MAJ Patrick Hairston CISSP, AWS Certified Cloud Architect made Apr 6 at 2016 7:33 AM

2016-04-06T07:33:57-04:00

"What do you think is an archaic or traditional thing we still do in the military that is no longer necessary?"
I say putting up with people who come in to the military and try to change said traditions. If you don't want to do the things required of you in the military, don't join. Period.

But then again, I'm old school.

Response by SGT Ben Williams made Apr 6 at 2016 7:57 AM

2016-04-06T07:57:07-04:00

Tradition is what makes us who we are. If you don't like it GTFO!

Response by PFC Matthew Gildner made Apr 6 at 2016 8:08 AM

2016-04-06T08:08:27-04:00

SSG please don't take this the wrong way but why are you even in the military if the traditions and operations seem archaic and useless to you. Formations are an essential part of unit communication not to mention it maintains cohesion and discipline within the cadre. If technology were to fail how do you propose that your unit receive the vital information it needs to perform it's mission? These archaic and traditional things are what make us a cohesive and well oiled military force. We are supposed to be the best of the best but somewhere have lost our way in these times where political correctness has affected even our standards of training and weeding out those that don't make the cut. The military needs to get back to it's roots and start training soldiers again, not whiney little cry-babies that get butt-hurt over being yelled at for screwing up.

Response by SFC Dennis Brown made Apr 6 at 2016 8:10 AM

2016-04-06T08:10:33-04:00

Unfortunately SSG Purham, true Army purist see the need for tradition. What you see as archaic I see as necessary. Discipline and Accountability are what help transform young soldiers into combat multipliers. Providing respect via a salute yes even to a passing officers vehicle also develops awareness. We do not want to move away from tradition. We did that in our school systems and America lost itself.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 10:15 AM

2016-04-06T10:15:58-04:00

I think that 3-4 formations a day is okay and even understandable, but anything outside of that is just pure madness.

Response by SPC Carl Shull made Apr 6 at 2016 10:58 AM

2016-04-06T10:58:19-04:00

Are you really that lazy, there is nothing wrong with formation, so the military should evolve, maybe you should evolve, it helps promote unity & discipline, your not a civilian, step up and follow the rules, for god sake your an nco....act
like one....

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 11:12 AM

2016-04-06T11:12:21-04:00

Might as well let everyone grow their hair out and get tattoos on their faces. It's to promote structure And uniformity. So... Form up butter cup.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 12:07 PM

2016-04-06T12:07:44-04:00

Respect.......plain and simple respect. Respect is something the military is losing. Young kids know it all I've done it all and don't want to work. Technology is key and old guys like myself just don't want to conform. In reality they don't respect what got us to the point we are today with using technology. When technology quits you need to rely on what the technology was measured up against. Saluting grooming standards just simply respect respect for yourself respect for your military respect for who were protecting

Response by SSG Andrew Vernon made Apr 6 at 2016 1:17 PM

2016-04-06T13:17:35-04:00

Is this SSG serious? Formatiins, drill and discipline are what set us apart from contractors and mercenaries. What this ignorant E-6 fails to see is that tradition is what builds esprit de corps and that esprit is what makes units fight harder and perform better.

Formation is also important as it is where a commander can visually inspect his troops not as individuals, but as a unit. In addition, it provides Soldiers with a clear reminder of what profession they are in (something that clearly many forget). It is also an opportunity for NCO'S to reinforce discipline and check equipment via in ranks inspection and to ram home the military lifestyle.

Thus, if your formations seem pointless as an NCO, then you have yourself to blame for not doing your job. Maybe, instead of complaining about formations being "pointless", then as a leader you should find a way to utilize them effectively. How about you do in ranks inspections, quiz your Soldiers knowledge, etc?

Response by SFC Jeffrey Thivierge, MA, BSN, RN made Apr 6 at 2016 1:18 PM

2016-04-06T13:18:15-04:00

While I don't disagree that formations are, well, dumb, there is a point to them. Sure, disseminating information can be done via other channels, but oftentimes, it is necessary for the 1SG to put out specific information in a specific way, just to ensure that nothing is "lost in translation". During my time in the Army, I spent some quality time in units that didn't have regular formations. In general, those were the units with the biggest problems. During a deployment, our 1SG noticed that a lot of misinformation was filtering around and he squashed it by having a weekly informal formation. It was a requirement that all available personnel would attend. There was none of the pomp and circumstance of a regular formation, but we'd hang around for 30-60 minutes and here what Top had to say and ask any questions. It was amazing. It was at that moment that I realized the importance of formations.

Response by Lt Col John Cheney made Apr 6 at 2016 1:27 PM

2016-04-06T13:27:52-04:00

Jats

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 1:52 PM

2016-04-06T13:52:01-04:00

You're not wrong that units don't do d&c or manual of arms very often. However, units should and it's a damn shame that they don't. The importance of d&c and manual of arms and other "arcaic traditions" you speak of aren't needed for effeciency or convenience. They are needed to instill discipline, military bearing, and attention to detail. Anyone who would suggest ridding the army of such traditions hasn't been in long enough. And by that I mean you clearly weren't around when we wore pressed bdu's and highly shined black boots. Back when soldiers gave a shit about looking as professional as possible. As it stands right now the army is super lazy. One thing I have come to a appreciate about being a drill sergeant is that I started to care again about the little things like arcaic traditions that are what make us soldiers. If you wanna be a lazy half ass dude with no discipline who just wants to shoot guns then get out an go work for some private military group. Leave to army to the real professional soldiers.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 6 at 2016 2:19 PM

2016-04-06T14:19:30-04:00

The staff system we learned from the Prussian military in the 19th Century. The US has been using the "1, 2, 3" staff system for decades in the Army and Joint Commands. In the last 10 years or so it has bled over into the Navy and Air Force. The staff functions are named and numbered, e.g., 1, Personnel and Manpower, 2, Intelligence, 3, Operations, 4, Logistics, 5, Plans, 6, communications (command, control, communications, and computer systems (C4S)). Commands added 7, 8, and 9 to designate staff organizations important to their mission, with 8 frequently being assigned to accounting and finance (money managers). The Army and Marines put a letter in front of the number to indicate the level of command at which the staff operates. G for general's staff (not to be confused with General Staff, which the US has rejected), J for joint staff, C for Combined (multi-national) staff, etc. The Air Force decided to start using A, so the Director of Operations became the A3; the Navy took over N for the Navy Staff. My complaint isn't with the existence of a staff. A good staff at all levels of command can multiply the Commander's effectiveness by processing much more information than one person and improving the quality of decisions.

My complaint is the tendency of staff sections to become fiefdoms. Instead of sharing information and ideas, the staff sections hoard information and feed it to the commander with their own particular point of view to add to their power and build their importance in the eyes of the commander. This is particularly prevalent when the staff section directors are senior officers and executive level civilians (SES) who are equal in rank to the Chief of Staff, for whom they should work. Each director wants their staff to be indispensable so they have immunity to manpower cuts when funding begins to decrease. Consequently coordination and cooperation among the staff officers decreases resulting in less-than-optimum support to the commander.

Funding cuts may lead to the consolidation of staff functions, such as the formation of a G-3/5/7, Operations, Plans, and Training. Logistical and C4S commands have identity issues when it comes to "operations." If the command's mission is a logistical function, then do they have a "3" or a "4" or some version of a "3/4" for Operations and Logistics. On the other hand, if personnel and logistics are combined "1/4" then a single organization provides both the human and physical resources needed for the mission. Strange as it sounds, this combination and consolidation of staff functions is leading in a direction we should go: functional staff organization.

The DoD needs to look at functional staff organization instead of following the Prussian model. Corporations learned this lesson long ago and most have functionally organized staffs supporting their owner or Board of Directors, President or CEO. The power of people in the "C" suites isn't too different from that of General or Flag Officers, but the philosophy of staff organization is different. If a staff function doesn't apply to the company, it probably doesn't exist. Support functions, such as supply and maintenance, are not given the same "C" status as the functions that keep the company alive. For example, the Chief Operating Officer's (COO) functions are roughly the same as a Director of Operations (G-3). Most companies don't have a Chief-level logistician providing supply and maintenance services. The DoD should rethink their General, Service, Joint, and Combined Staffs freeing themselves from the Prussian system and turning toward a truly functional staff system. Some staff organizations may not change much as a result, but others could be down-sized and made more efficient by simply doing away with staff sections that don't contribute to the mission and assigning their few essential duties to other staff sections.

Response by SGT Ben King made Apr 6 at 2016 2:31 PM

2016-04-06T14:31:24-04:00

Thinking that mental health is just a matter of toughness. I think we need to evolve our culture to see mental health the same a physical health. Something that must be trained regularly.

Response by GySgt Joe Williams made Apr 6 at 2016 2:52 PM

2016-04-06T14:52:56-04:00

The Military is based on tradition. You would not have a Rank if it were not for tradition. These thing are needed to instill pride of who you are and pride in your Unit.

Response by SSG Mannix Brooks made Apr 6 at 2016 3:27 PM

2016-04-06T15:27:40-04:00

Technology can never replace the soldier and the things that are done by tradition are for a reason. I would say technology is great and makes things easier but over relying on technology is a problem(email, PowerPoint), especially when it comes to basic human communications. When the so called rag tag armies of the world ISIS, Al Quiada and the Taliban have survived thus far doing basic soldiering what technology can defeat that other than your basic foundation of training. The same technology you speak of can be hacked and can be wrong and with the further development of EMP may be made worthless in some cases in the future. Never forget the basics and there are nothing archaic it all has a purpose.

Response by SSgt Stephen Berry made Apr 6 at 2016 4:08 PM

2016-04-06T16:08:46-04:00

How about we go back to the tradition of taking soldiers like you out back for wall to wall counseling for saying stupid crap like that!!!

Response by PO1 Anthony Barzola made Apr 6 at 2016 4:39 PM

2016-04-06T16:39:02-04:00

Wow

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 5:45 PM

2016-04-06T17:45:26-04:00

Then join the fing Air Force

Response by CSM Christopher St. Cyr made Apr 6 at 2016 7:23 PM

2016-04-06T19:23:28-04:00

I used to think the same thing when I was a Staff Sergeant, then I was given a platoon. I made efforts in a close facility in a combat zone to see each of my Soldiers everyday. It rarely happened and that was working 20 hour days. At home station, at the end of the weekend I would give my platoon an open ranks march, shake each Soldiers hand and tell them something they did during drill I noticed that was good. In my current position and role, I cannot do that and I have half as many Soldiers. If my NCOs are doing what they are supposed to be doing, they can be over 100 miles away from me and in different locations. I don't know what it is like in your world, but covering that kind of ground to watch your Sergeants do good work AND do all the things my boss expects of me just is not possible. Without morning formation, many times I would not see them all at once. Not everyone does text. Not everyone emails. There is no substitute for looking a Soldier in the eye when giving direction or seeking feedback. Formations remain an important, necessary tradition.

Response by CSM Christopher St. Cyr made Apr 6 at 2016 7:28 PM

2016-04-06T19:28:07-04:00

One more comment, we no longer report for pay because everyone has direct deposit. As a result, no more 'payday activities' or passes.

Response by SPC Darren Koele made Apr 6 at 2016 7:59 PM

2016-04-06T19:59:19-04:00

There are some traditions that should be kept up such as formations. While not a big fan of them, I did understand their purpose, and it actually made us feel like a single unit. I never saw the purpose of the starched and ironed uniforms. I was an engineer and it served no purpose as far as unit readiness, job readiness, or discipline. In fact, those who did it often changed after morning formation; in other words, they looked good for inspection, nothing more. According to regs, all that was required was the uniform be clean and serviceable instead of dirty, wrinkled, full of holes, faded, etc. Shining boots I understand as it lends to the water resistance and reduces wear of the boot. But spit shined? I don't think so. Inspections are fine but when they are used to treat you like some recruit in boot camp when you've ben active for 3 years or more, then you've crossed a line. My roommate got gigged for soap residue in his soap dish. The platoon sergeant then questioned his ability to be a career soldier because of that residue.
Perhaps one thing that needs to go back is the lax way people in uniform address each other. In boot camp, it was all, "yes, sergeant", and "no, sergeant". But when I got to my duty station, it "hey, surge". It didn't take long for me to follow in these steps. Also, one thing I noticed with officers, at least in the office, is the using of first names. I can still recall hearing my CO (a captain) talking to a subordinate LT (the XO), "Hey, Pete, can you come here a minute?" Maybe if it was just the two of them, fine, but the room was full of enlisted and I thought was highly inappropriate... but I felt it was not my place to question. The same thing applies to enlisted people of all ranks elsewhere. I heard people calling each other by firth name, more commonly just a last name. The only time you heard rank was when someone was about to get jacked up, then the rank was used as a parent uses a child's middle name when scolding them. And all this was happening in '87-'91.

Response by SPC Todd Curran made Apr 6 at 2016 8:01 PM

2016-04-06T20:01:27-04:00

well when i went to basic training is nothing compared to todays training its more like day camp . all because of political correctness . i think we need to go back to where we started swearing ,busting your butt to strive to be perfect , instead of civilians controlling everything . because technology will fail but fundamentals will not .

Response by SPC Terrance Wilson made Apr 6 at 2016 8:30 PM

2016-04-06T20:30:18-04:00

At the end of the day these traditions serve a purpose and if you don't want to do them get out. Either zip it and comply or leave!!!

Response by SPC William Walker made Apr 6 at 2016 9:11 PM

2016-04-06T21:11:51-04:00

These Tradition are set in place to instill pride. Every Arcaic tradition as you put it has a meaning behind it and a history. You want to away with something, how about we worry less about ppl getting butt hurt and man the hell up. You volunteered to join not forced, uphold the traditions or ETS.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 6 at 2016 9:27 PM

2016-04-06T21:27:40-04:00

I would suggest New Years receptions need to go... They no longer provide value in my view - mandatory fun of literally the highest order. SFC Randy Purham

Response by SGT Mark Herrera made Apr 6 at 2016 10:26 PM

2016-04-06T22:26:11-04:00

What numb nut actually had the nerve to go against years of tradition just cause it was inconvenient for them? I know for a fact that the tradition of saluting isn't going anywhere, anywhere fast. Who thinks of this shit and if you think of it, why even bring it up?

Response by SSgt Christon Blair made Apr 6 at 2016 10:37 PM

2016-04-06T22:37:38-04:00

I think there are some new traditions that need to go. I would start with the excessive emphasis placed on volunteer work and the other extra curricular activities. Everyone has seen people make rank based on school and volunteer work and it sets a bad example. You need (in the USAF) your TSGTs to be technical experts and you shouldn't be able to get to that point without being one. That you built houses is awesome and commendable but if volunteer work is your way of contributing to the mission then you need to go to public relations.

Response by SGT Nathan Almquist made Apr 6 at 2016 10:57 PM

2016-04-06T22:57:26-04:00

Let's not worry about the small issues. Let talk about the military getting all soft and catering to the sensitive. I understand not being able to strike a soldier but no yelling and no smoke sessions..... this is a travesty that needs to stop we as service members train to defend this country aka fight. And for the majority of yall who operate within the wire down range. They are not shooting marsh mellows!!!! We need our soldiers to be tough as nails not stress card raising sissys bc there nco used a tone they didn't like

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 11:15 PM

2016-04-06T23:15:31-04:00

Traditions and customs and courtesies are apart of our history. I believe that following those can help build the espirit de corps if done correctly. Part of the problem is that after years of warfare younger Soldiers don't fully understand or appreciate this.

Response by Cpl D L Parker made Apr 7 at 2016 12:08 AM

2016-04-07T00:08:15-04:00

back in 1987 I was bypassed by an inspector because I had on spit shined shoes when every one else had corframs. And this was in the desert!!! However I never spit shined after that. it was too tedious.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 1:08 AM

2016-04-07T01:08:21-04:00

It's funny because one of the most valuable lesson I learned when i took over as LPO was, don't be an E-Mail leader.

Response by MSgt Victor Moss made Apr 7 at 2016 1:12 AM

2016-04-07T01:12:33-04:00

"What do you think is an archaic or traditional thing we still do in the military that is no longer necessary?"

Having to listen to whiny, sniveling little Airmen Snuffy's who complain about the military. If you don't like the "archaic or traditional thing we still do in the military" there's a simple answer; GET OUT.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 3:11 AM

2016-04-07T03:11:42-04:00

Never under estimate the significance of recognizing each other with honor unless of course your mission requires dismissal of salutation'

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 5:26 AM

2016-04-07T05:26:57-04:00

While were at it, lets just do away with customs and courtesies. The is really no reason why I shouldn't be able to call my CSM and BG by their first name. I really don't understand why I should have to do what I'm told all of the time, even if I know that it doesn't make any sense. This thread should have never been started. It is this kind of thinking that is causing good leaders to leave the Army.

Response by SFC Niles Heggie made Apr 7 at 2016 8:37 AM

2016-04-07T08:37:25-04:00

No place for Unions!

Response by SGT William Howell made Apr 7 at 2016 8:47 AM

2016-04-07T08:47:16-04:00

Change of command. Worthless to everybody!

Response by SFC Jason King made Apr 7 at 2016 9:09 AM

2016-04-07T09:09:31-04:00

Quit changing our services. For any reason! change with the times, that's why we're in this mess. I remember when soldiers stood proud, and would fight to uphold theses traditions. Plus, we are needing REAL AMERICAN service men/women. Not turbine wearing Muslims, Pansies, or gangbangers, These traditions help build and serve our country. Quit trying to make everyone fit in. Let everyone else rise to our Standards. NO P.C. Here.

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made Apr 7 at 2016 9:13 AM

2016-04-07T09:13:27-04:00

This thread has highlighted a key difference in perspective: do we want to be military focused, or mission focused? Military focus reflects an appreciation for the entire military culture, to include traditions and history, and an emphasis on the long term development of human capital. This focus neither desires nor is truly sustainable while executing continuous combat operations, but when called upon is capable of deploying with overwhelming force and achieving tangible objectives.

Mission focus: is not sustainable nor desirable without constant operations, does poorly at tasks not directly related to specific mission sets, and is mostly unconcerned with traditions, heritage or history.

It seems that the Army system (the one with which I am most familiar) has managed to get people of either perspective into places where they fit best.

FWIW, I'd rather be deployed half a year, every year, than stand in one more change of command or retirement ceremony.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 9:21 AM

2016-04-07T09:21:54-04:00

SSG Randy Purham new age NCO like you these days is what is wrong with the Army today. Can't do D&C disseminate information to keep soldiers informed. Correct soldiers when they are wrong or doing wrong, You are too afraid to hurt their feeling or being unfriended on social media by them. I see your so called new age soldiers walking and talking on cell phone NOGO, walking around hands in pockets NOGO, no head gear NOGO, in wrong uniform NOGO. They dont give greeting of the day, salute officer vehicles when they pass bylearn their jobs like weapons, land navigation, basic tasks that all soldiers need to know. They are use to mommy and daddy coddling them and and now you and the rest of the new age NCO's that should have never been promoted to NCO are ruining the Army and running it into the ground.

Response by LTC John Campbell made Apr 7 at 2016 9:41 AM

2016-04-07T09:41:33-04:00

Here is a story I tell that helps illustrate the "Things we should forget" subject: There was a great story I heard a “million years ago” that illustrates the consequences of a military organization not completely “forgetting” something. The story goes: After WWII, NATO forces in Europe had an annual artillery “shoot-off” competition; where the best howitzer teams of each nation would compete against each other in a timed firing drill i.e., determine the target location (range/distance), load the cannon, and hopefully hit the target faster than the others.
Apparently, the British Army team lost year after year. As a result, the Brits called in an outside organization (something like Rand Corporation if you will) to analyze British firing procedures and recommend any changes that might help improve their performance.
At a gathering of high-ranking British Army artillery officers and NCOs, the group dissected each step in the firing sequence in order to find any time-saving modifications. It seems that during one step in the sequence, the howitzer loader would place the round in the cannon breach, do an about face, and take 3 steps to the rear of the gun, and then do another about face and look in the direction of the target.
After much arguing about the necessity for this movement i.e., was it for safety, to observe the round, or some other reason, the outside organization decided to do some research. From the old British Army archives, they discovered an 1850’s artillery manual that had the step outlined in detail.
While the assembled group of artillerists insisted and shouted that they had “always done it this way”, they became silent when they found out that the original reason for the movement was so when the loader loaded the round, he was to take three steps backward and “Hold the reigns of the horses so they would not spook when the cannon fired”
This is an example of not forgetting everything that needed to be forgotten. Hope you enjoyed the tale.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 10:02 AM

2016-04-07T10:02:49-04:00

If you do not like the Army traditions, join the Air Force. They deplore being disciplined.

Response by SFC Robert White made Apr 7 at 2016 10:11 AM

2016-04-07T10:11:58-04:00

with seeing the lack of discipline from officers and NCOS (up and including MSG) it amazes me you want to take more traditions away. how about putting the soldier back in the army. marines and navy are deep in traditions. we have lost this. it needs to be taught from basic thru all training schools. remove cell phones and electronics from basic,a it and service schools (ncoes) get back to basics. uniform inspections, equipment layouts. get mother America back in the house and out of our services. lost count of uniform violations specially off post (WOs, NCOs, going to bars to drink and eat while in uniform, taking boss off in bars, sunglasses inside. headgear either missing or being worn undercover in stores) civilian clothing and dress that looKS more like walking the block instead of a lifestyle of discipline aND professionalism. the army has gone to hell in a hand basket. and I place this blame on the army chief of staff and the CSM of the army all the way down to the newly promoted cpl or sgt. all I can say is every rime you let a violation go uncorrected or you are in violation yourself you have set a new standard. what have you done for your soldier today? glad it's not my army anymore. I hate seeing it turn into JR. ROTC.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 10:39 AM

2016-04-07T10:39:42-04:00

Because of ncos like you soldiers at at the px,mall or the house instead of being at work. Hav

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 12:09 PM

2016-04-07T12:09:28-04:00

doing away wit hthe traditional contracts seems like a decent start. most people know that their jobs are safe and don't feel the need to be more than mediocre cause lets face it you cant discharge someone for performing slightly below standards. if we follow the model the civilian security contractors have it seems like we might meet more success. you can cut down on the folks that joined and decided it wasn't for them (nothing wrong with that) and continue to be a morale suck on everyone around them with their negativity. if they were free to quit (in some way) then it seems beneficial for both the person and the service. on the other hand, if you can quit you can be fired. this could end a huge problem with toxic leadership. most notably the immunity most junior officers and senior enlisted seem to have. more often than not (from what I have seen) a junior officer has a fraternization charge (lets say) and they are reprimanded and simply moved. same goes for senior enlisted. loyalty tells me that senior enlisted have earned a second chance but that's probably just personal feelings. basically if underperformers can be fired and the regretful can leave it seems like it would do a world of good for the service and create a better spirit of competition amongst service members.

Response by SgtMaj Anthony Goss made Apr 7 at 2016 12:16 PM

2016-04-07T12:16:54-04:00

I'm not sure who wrote this article, but apparently they don't understand some of the traditions, customs and courtesies, and why they are done even though they are in the military. Yes there may be other ways for accounting for someone other than a formation, but the best way is putting your eye on them. There has been too many instances where someone has died or been hurt because of poor accountability. I'm sure there are other things in each branch of service that someone can think of that could go away. However, if they have e been around since that service was created, there is a very good reason for it!

Response by SSG Steve Van Erden made Apr 7 at 2016 12:20 PM

2016-04-07T12:20:31-04:00

Those military TRADITIONS! The millenal generation needs to get withe program!

Response by MSG Gary Saffell made Apr 7 at 2016 1:03 PM

2016-04-07T13:03:17-04:00

I guess that I have been away from the community so long I am shocked at the topic! I applaud the many of respondents on their comments of retaining our military traditions. As many of you have already said and that I totally agree with, total dependence on electronic devices to accomplish their mission is so misguided. Unit communications need to retain their morning formations for the purpose it was originally designed....distribute information first hand-face to face, all at one time. To make sure those scheduled to be there actually are, so that the mission does not break down.There is a difference between field and home station duty, but the idea is the same. Eyes on reporting is better than emailing. Doing away with military basics, as aptly reflected, just makes the military a hodge-podge of a bunch of people. I DO understand the advantages of todays technology but what happens if it goes away...does everyone get up screaming, waving their arms, running heater skelter? Basic and deep ingrained military traditions and procedures are maintained and practiced, kicks in and survival is maintained.

Response by CPL Stormi Miller made Apr 7 at 2016 1:09 PM

2016-04-07T13:09:36-04:00

Aretha said it best "R.E.S.P.E.C.T." The younger generations don't have enough of it. The only purpose saluting a general officer's car ever had was to show respect. They've done enough time in the service to deserve that respect.

Response by PO1 Dave Porter made Apr 7 at 2016 1:20 PM

2016-04-07T13:20:02-04:00

Marching Bands. In the USCG, you come in as a E-6. Useless in my opinion.

Response by SGT Tony Quilici made Apr 7 at 2016 1:28 PM

2016-04-07T13:28:44-04:00

This is what Political Correctness has wrought upon the Military. Service Members who are too lazy to give the respect as warranted by the traditions founded at the birth of this Nation and the Military.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 2:29 PM

2016-04-07T14:29:31-04:00

Not so great an idea. Much of what you want to do away with are foundational to discipline and unit integrity. But also foundational to being in the military. Why not just do away with all of it and civilianize the service. Maybe I'm old corps, but if those don't fit you, you should consider another career.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 2:29 PM

2016-04-07T14:29:58-04:00

Facial hair restrictions have got to go!

Response by Cpl Raul Hernandez made Apr 7 at 2016 3:37 PM

2016-04-07T15:37:02-04:00

Formations, close order drill instill discipline necessary and teach an individual to function as a unit, teamwork. There is a old saying. If it isn't broke, don't fix. These practices have been around since the beginning and they work, that simple.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 4:52 PM

2016-04-07T16:52:03-04:00

Let's not forget where we came from. As we continue to evolve we have to remember our basic soldiering. There is a reason behind these things that has a bigger impact than you might think. Formations aren't as many as they used to be, however in the old days if you were caught at the OX during duty hours you had to answer for why you weren't working. Tax payers pay our salary and if we are not engaged in duty them we are defrauding tax payers. I use this example because formations were brought up and at any given time during the duty day, I can go to te PX and more than likely find a couple of dozen soldiers, in uniform, just shopping. So with that being said, how are they accounted for and how do you account for them performing duty? Yes I have been one of those soldiers a few times and as I walked around the PX I couldn't help but know I was wrong so I ended my "shopping" and went back to the company area. This is just one example. Discipline, command and control, and accountability. Just my two cents that may not be worth a hill of beans to anyone.

Response by SPC Craig Hill made Apr 7 at 2016 5:11 PM

2016-04-07T17:11:19-04:00

I disagree, we need to bring back the old school Army, people have been destroying what it means to be a soldier in the name of progress and it has weakened us to a point that we are becoming a JOKE! Fuck all the pc shit let's become strong once again!

Response by 1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 7:31 PM

2016-04-07T19:31:53-04:00

I'm not going to harp on the formations thing like everyone else is. The point is made, it's a way to get the whole squadron, platoon, battalion, etc together to pass information. It's something that's good.

To answer your question. I can't think of anything that needs to go, but I can think of a couple things that need to come back.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 7:56 PM

2016-04-07T19:56:28-04:00

Ok, I'll bite the bait.... CQ. There are several units across the DOD and most primarily the Air Force as a whole, that do not perform 24hour CQ operations. CQ is not as necessary as it once was. Sure, maintaining good order and diciine, and a clean and safe living environment, are a must for our people. It can be done without the use of CQs though. The Air Force has already demonstrated this over the years. CQ used to be a great tool for alerting soldiers in times of crisis or extreme events requiring units to muster. However, with damn near everybody having some form of communication, they are not that necessary. I know there will be about a million comments about "quiet hours, after hours visitors, sexual harassment, underage drinking, etc", but we have systems in place that are utilized despite the presence of CQ staff. For example, a suspected assault sexual or not, the security teams (MPs, CID) will use the barracks camera system to help identify perpetrators along with witness statements. Sure, CQ has a chance of stopping something before it happens, but let's be honest with ourselves.... No matter how vigilant the people on duty may be, shit still happens. Barracks catching fire because some ass hat over cooked their popcorn... Fire system activated, and building flooding because it was apparently a good idea to throw a set of keys to you buddy down the hall, but accidentally hitting a sprinkler head with them and busting the stick thing to activate said system. It boils down to witnesses policing up their battle buddies, and/or reporting improprieties. Along with strict but fair punishment of violators that trash the barracks, cause noise disturbances, drink underage, or God forbid forget that no means no. Barracks should be more like appartment buildings, if there is a problem, call the MPs, after all they need something to do other than guard the gate. These things are what they are trained for. It's who people in on post housing have to call, why should it be any different for young men and women staying at the barracks? Hope my point was clear enough, and now I guess que the what ifs...

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 7:59 PM

2016-04-07T19:59:03-04:00

Formations are two fold, at least in my limited Air Force experience. I would rather see everyone and how they're doing and you get flight, squadron and base information to us in formation instead of email blasts from every member in the chain of command, info that could have been put on a bulletin board or sharepoint. Although, it's the fact that almost nothing meaningful is said at morning formation that ruins it. Leaders should prepare what they should and need to talk about rather than rambling about half remembered staff meetings.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 8:00 PM

2016-04-07T20:00:33-04:00

Sorry there SSG. The Corps prides itself on Close Order Drill and Manual of Arms. I disagree.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 8:26 PM

2016-04-07T20:26:53-04:00

I kinda like the tradition of it all.......

Response by TSgt Julie Miller made Apr 7 at 2016 8:46 PM

2016-04-07T20:46:39-04:00

To be honest I've been retired for over 10 yrs. But, looking back I really can't see too many 'Archaic" or outdated traditions that could be done away with.

Why? Well after having retired I have seen a greater lax in military discipline. I've seen pride in units fade away... No longer do we get excited to share unit patches and talk about our units/squadrons/etc.... Nope! Instead I see a constant flow of unhappy military just bidding their time till their term of enlistment is up.

I own and run a restaurant just off base. I get a mix of active duty and retired in here daily. The old guys/gals we talk shop and swap stories. The younger guys come in and either don't chat at all or have legitimate complaints they just don't want to talk about.

If the military does away with Uniform standards, traditions, etc... then we should just all go civilian and see how well that works. Too many times we try to be too politically correct and in doing so we loose the automatic respect for authority that helps maintain good order and discipline.

If the complaint is about going to formations or attending ceremonies then the military is not for the one complaining. I guess my question in closing, is what traditions are considered old and archaic and why?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 10:20 PM

2016-04-07T22:20:03-04:00

Frankly, any time I hear "grown up" or "21 century" or any other buzzword that basically says the current way of doing things is archaic and backwards in the opinion of the speaker - I know someone is trying to use emotion rather than logic to prove their point. If you want to say something isn't worth doing any more, then tell me why. But don't try to sell me on the idea that the only way I can prove I'm not a cave man is by doing what you tell me to do. That's a load of horse shit.

Response by GySgt David Andrews made Apr 7 at 2016 10:50 PM

2016-04-07T22:50:01-04:00

I'm not sure how to answer this one! I'm not sure if I should laugh again or roll my eyes or pour a very strong drinking after reading this one. At first I thought maybe it was a joke but then I saw how it was signed and at least had an idea and some understanding why. But I also wonder if this is just the start of more to come in the military as it decays along with the civilian side of this country. I'm still at a loss!!!!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 11:19 PM

2016-04-07T23:19:17-04:00

Wearing hats is pointless unless it's a helmet especially in dress uniforms

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 11:56 PM

2016-04-07T23:56:07-04:00

In my mind formations are there to maintain good order and to make sure that all are accounted for. We are steep in tradition and we have been moving away from it for a while now. This is one thing that will help keep us grounded in our traditions

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2016 12:19 AM

2016-04-08T00:19:11-04:00

I'm an old First Sergeant, USAFR variety. Formations do still serve a purpose. They instill discipline and esprit de corps. These are still important concepts in any combat unit Technology cannot replace that.

Response by PO2 Thomas Froburg made Apr 8 at 2016 1:42 AM

2016-04-08T01:42:18-04:00

Here is how I feel about this subject. Keep the traditions and keep the formations. Allowing to much freedom causes less discipline and more personality. Personality can and will get you killed if you cannot work as a unit. Now I am a USCG veteran and traditions at sea is what keeps us alive in the event that something goes down you are your ship and help is not close. Other branches have their traditions for a reason, if you are not happy with how the military operates then it is time for you to get out.

Response by SGT Merle Tester made Apr 8 at 2016 1:52 AM

2016-04-08T01:52:52-04:00

I'm a former Intelligence Analyst of 10 years of service. I server 2003-2013 which is basicly the entire war. I saw Soldiers go from being able to plot and map grid coordinates and arrive at them to not being able to tie their own boots without an app. This has been a disgrace to the armed forces. Formations not only give out information and accountability but serve to remind Soldiers, Airmen, Seamen, and Marines that they are there for a purpose. Being a Service Member isn't a 9-5 job. It isn't like working at Wal-Mart. It is an honor, and the very notion of doing away with such things is no less than an idea from one who comes from the generation of spoiled children that want nothing more than to sit and play games all day rather than uphold the values and dedication of his forbears.

Response by LCpl Daniel Gibson made Apr 8 at 2016 9:15 AM

2016-04-08T09:15:23-04:00

The Marines hit the nail on the head with differentiating uniforms. Combat uniforms and working uniforms should be treated exactly as that, uniforms to fight and be productive in. Service uniforms for non-physical purposes and dress uniforms for special occasions. We were the first to integrate the no-shine boots and nonstarched uniforms and no one ever talks about Marines having esprit de corps or combat effectiveness issues. What the army is missing is a lack of leadership. When they started taking guys with hand and neck tattoos just to feed the war machine, allowing fat bodies to get medical profiles and slip on unit readiness, that's when it went to hell. A lot of the retirees complain about uniforms and grooming standards affecting discipline and combat ability when they were in during the 80s and 90s when most didn't even see a deployment to a hostile AO, let alone cycling through multiple combat deployments in a single enlistment period. You're service is still valid, but maybe you should consider an alternative point of view. But what do I know, I was just a pog reservist that got jacked up training for a deployment that never happened. YMMV.

Response by SSG Sean Chambers made Apr 8 at 2016 9:15 AM

2016-04-08T09:15:58-04:00

Pretty sure a bunch of colonial officers thought the same thing. It wasn't until Lafayette came over to show us he errors of our em ways that we started actually winning that war.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2016 11:52 AM

2016-04-08T11:52:06-04:00

I'd like to see us do away with saluting. There's no purpose for it other than ceremonial. Back when officers were career folks (and educated) and enlisted weren't for the most part, it made sense. Officers basically were an enlisted's betters. Nowadays, any motivated troop can get a bachelor's degree. Some officers are better than me. I'm better than some of them. But there's no reason to keep the salute around. My first sergeant is my superior and I don't salute her. We should keep that for formations and ceremonies, only.

Beards. No reason not to have them. "Professional appearance" is an asthetic judgment. Before the Great Wars, Soldiers had beards. The armies of many other nations have them now. Special Ops are allowed to grow them, and they're more likely to get gassed than anyone in garrison. I'm not saying we should allow the full Duck Commander look, but lets be real here.

As far as formations...? That's crazy talk. I could see only having them at the company or higher level at the beginning/end of the week/month or for special occasions, but at the platoon and section level it can't be dispensed with. Gotta have that face time.

Response by SFC Thomas Twigg made Apr 8 at 2016 12:33 PM

2016-04-08T12:33:00-04:00

This country was founded on principles we dare not utter for far now of offending someone who is not Jewdeo-Christians. So we abanded that which has been so successful in the growth and maturity of this great nation. It seems to me, that abandoning the customs which have made the Army what it is will have no different result. An organization without a foundation. An organization without principles. An organization without value or values. We are not and never should be treated like corporate America. We are and always should be the defenders of Freedom and Liberty. Just as NCO's are the bearer of the standards. And if that means that our customs and courtesies, which are part of who we are, are "outdated" so be it.

Response by SGT David Emme made Apr 8 at 2016 12:39 PM

2016-04-08T12:39:29-04:00

Technology should be a multiplier but not a replacement for face to face, day to day operations. Shorten the communication circle when it is effective and efficient to do so without replacing soldiering and accountability formations. For example, change 10,001 when in transit for a training mission for equipment or location of a meeting or supply operations would be a good use of communication technology. As a Supply Sergeant in a Calvary Troop going through transformation in the second Stryker Brigade at Lewis in 2001-2004, this sort of technology would have allowed me to do a lot more-get more done and give more support to my commander and troopers as I endeavored to do!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2016 1:29 PM

2016-04-08T13:29:04-04:00

It is sad that an NCO would think this way. Traditions are how we build resilience and respect. Especially the salute. A salute goes both ways, there have been many times I have saluted and NCO or enlisted without them saluting me, as a sign of respect to them. Posts like these just reiterate the fact most people are too involved in themselves to realize they are part of something bigger, a team, and a family.

Response by A1C Melissa Jackson made Apr 8 at 2016 1:49 PM

2016-04-08T13:49:49-04:00

Here is the deal about that:
1) consider what social media has done to our culture as a whole. It has reduced PERSONAL contact and conversation by a huge margin.
2) the military can ONLY function effectively as a big TEAM. For that you absolutely MUST have personal contact and group cohesion.
3) squadron formations bring a large number of service members together in one place- from various different MOS' and they are then a big group.
4) not to mention- when I was in the military that was the absolute ONLY time I ever even SAW my commander. It might be a good idea to know what he looks like!

I see your point a little bit, but formations are an important part of military culture, and the military is not a corporation. I imagine there is already a good deal of information passed along via email- like- there is a formation today!!!!!

Response by SGT Jack Kelly made Apr 9 at 2016 8:05 AM

2016-04-09T08:05:13-04:00

You can't ensure mission objectives and directives are followed and properly understood without face to face. Go to the private sector

Response by SFC Terry Murphy made Apr 9 at 2016 11:29 AM

2016-04-09T11:29:03-04:00

The one thing I hated from day one in the Army, and tried to change as much as possible when I was a senior NCO was the waiting around for the 1SG to have his platoon Sgt meeting at 1700, then waiting around until 1800 to get the big news that PT was at 0600. As a junior soldier, I was always wondering why we needed to be sitting around for that last hour or two, just to hear what we already knew. When I became a Company NCOIC (basically a 1SG) I would send all my people home. When the SGM would ask why my soldiers had already left, I told him the truth. I sent them home and if there was any information that they needed to hear before 0600 PT formation, each one of my NCOs had a phone, and I would call them. He actually thought that was reasonable!
I know several soldiers who are still serving and the practice of having a 1SG meeting and having the soldiers waiting around seems to have grown worse. Some of these current soldiers are having to wait around until 1900-2000 just to hear "PT at 0600".

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 1:25 AM

2016-04-10T01:25:58-04:00

It serves for one simple reason. DISCIPLINE!

Response by SFC David Dawson made Apr 10 at 2016 7:48 AM

2016-04-10T07:48:56-04:00

I am about to loose my mind you punk's come to the Military for structure and then try to change the name of the game, run all of us old bastard's out and wonder why shit is fucked up? Ask your awesome butter bar that you as a NCO look up to what should I do now? Dumbass!!!!!!

Response by A1C Bob Soper made Apr 10 at 2016 8:08 AM

2016-04-10T08:08:47-04:00

"if someone is missing, you either will call them, knock on doors, or go to their house". You got to be kidding ? Go to their house ? It was simple in my outfit " you were not missing" if you were missing you were in serious trouble. Are you talking about the Boy Scout's or what ?

Response by Sgt Chris Papierz made Apr 10 at 2016 9:10 AM

2016-04-10T09:10:22-04:00

Traditions are born from actions that worked. Our society today seems to believe that if it doesn't affect them, directly and immediately, they don't need to worry about it. We no longer look at the larger picture to realize how important the simple act of spit shining boots really is....pride, work ethic, these go on to a larger picture of unit pride and cohesion. One problem I see is parents and society are not reinforcing the simple ideas of the basics, and great morals and ethics; then they go into the military and become resentful to things they feel have no bearing on anything they do.

Response by SFC H.L. Nettles made Apr 10 at 2016 9:14 AM

2016-04-10T09:14:24-04:00

Its been 21 years (June 2016) since I retired. I am greatful for all that I learned while serving. It carried over into my civilian life (work/school). We will alwways need standards. The basic tools will always be available, because technology will break down. Go back to the basics, the beginning. Good discipline and basic knowedge will always win out. Thanks to all of you for your service.

Response by SSG Steven McDanield made Apr 10 at 2016 12:05 PM

2016-04-10T12:05:57-04:00

You're missing the biggest point of Formation. It's about the Face to Face of team building. It’s part of building the unit to function as one. You don’t get that from e-mail, texting or video chat.
Customs and courtesies are what separate us from the civilian world (and less professional armies around the world, by the way). They are important because they help to define the very essence of our profession by shaping the expected behaviors of those who choose to join us in military service. They are also one of the major reasons that our “customer”—the U.S. civilian—holds the military in such high regard. Some customs—such as saluting and D&C—instill basic discipline. Others are designed to build esprit de corps and camaraderie in fighting units. All customs and courtesies link us to our history and provide a sense of purpose and solidarity as Soldiers. These traditions bind us to our brothers and sisters in arms going back to ancient Rome.
Maybe some stuff needs to be “modernized,” but failing to carry on customs and courtesies is a recipe for allowing our profession to be shaped by people other than professional Soldiers. At the company-command level, it comes down to communicating the importance of these traditions through leader professional development, example, and ensuring that Soldiers are receiving proper instruction as a part of Sergeant’s Time Training. It’s been a long time since I’ve been on active duty, but I can say that our traditions not only shape us as professional soldiers, but continue well into our civilian life after our military careers are completed. It is this professionalism that separates and elevates us from our civilian peers.
Bottom Line: When I was a young NCO, I hated the change-of-command ceremonies I had to march in. I couldn’t believe we “wasted” so much of a Soldier’s time doing that stuff. In my years of service, I’ve seen many things change: green fatigues to BDUs to ACUs; PT banana suits to Army Greys; steel pots to ACHs; MREs have evolved many times over; patrol cap to beret … to patrol cap. However, what have not changed are our customs and courtesies. We still have the “Adjutant’s walk” during changes of command. We still pass the guidon. We still have cadence calling in formation. We still play “Taps” at military funerals. These are things I hope never go away. I look upon our customs and courtesies as being family values, and much like my own family’s values, I’d be hard-pressed to change any of them.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 4:33 PM

2016-04-10T16:33:25-04:00

Getting paid is an outdated tradition also, the government should give out food allowances weekly. Lol.JK BTW

Response by LCpl George Hale made Apr 10 at 2016 5:36 PM

2016-04-10T17:36:54-04:00

formation is done so all personnel gets the information,that way no ,i didnt get the word,or given miss info.

Response by SGT Bruce McDonald made Apr 10 at 2016 9:13 PM

2016-04-10T21:13:14-04:00

WTF???? Some of these people need some RTandR!

Response by HN Keiran Fallon made Apr 10 at 2016 9:17 PM

2016-04-10T21:17:11-04:00

Nope. Those traditions are what make us what we are.

Response by HN Keiran Fallon made Apr 10 at 2016 9:24 PM

2016-04-10T21:24:40-04:00

As annoying as those traditions seem in light of the changes in technology and in certain standards, they are the base standards we all fall back on.

Response by Sgt Steve Hall made Apr 10 at 2016 11:43 PM

2016-04-10T23:43:39-04:00

I believe you are incorrect drill and ceremony should be used more to develop more discipline. The military today lacks basic discipline. Formations to password are for a purpose things can changes with a phone call or a text. Plus face it troops lie for their buddies to get out of stuff. Formations due suck but if you do it as a unit to bring the wak up to speed with all and you work as a team to accomplish this it is worth it. After serving in the Marine Corps and then the Army I can truly say that many soldiers lack pride in their Unit, their history, in the Army.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2016 12:24 AM

2016-04-11T00:24:39-04:00

I was trying to just vote down on your comment, but I think you are way off the mark on this and if you have a problem with simply showing up to a formation to report in, be accounted for and inspected, then maybe you don't belong in the Army. Not trying to be mean, but this is a time when leaders can gauge their entire formation for well being, appearance, ability to follow simple rules, discipline, etc. It is only a "check the box" when leaders fail to engage as leaders.

Response by SGT Hugh Bowman made Apr 11 at 2016 1:28 AM

2016-04-11T01:28:52-04:00

To a certain point shaving should go

Response by SGT Hugh Bowman made Apr 11 at 2016 1:31 AM

2016-04-11T01:31:45-04:00

Personally you really need 2 perhaps 3 a week of there is info that's so important. That's why you have a psg aka platoon Sgt. If they. Can't send out the info there the ones that need to go

Response by SGT Mike Moschkin made Apr 11 at 2016 6:11 AM

2016-04-11T06:11:00-04:00

Are you really in the Army or in the Boy Scouts ? Or do you want the Army become Boy Scouts if this how you feel you should get out of the Army !!!

Response by SGT Mike Moschkin made Apr 11 at 2016 6:27 AM

2016-04-11T06:27:33-04:00

I was in the Army for 4 years and I understood the whys of formations, The reason for marching togther it was all about unit cohesiveness. The saluting is about discipline and respect for the chain of command. Those marching orders in the battlefield were used to effect directions such as echolon or forward ! I really don't think you are cut out for the Army I wasn't and got out !

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2016 12:21 PM

2016-04-11T12:21:45-04:00

I have worked assignments where my flagpole was 400ish miles and 3 States away. Our Command mandated that once a month we all show up at the flagpole in our uniforms (day 1-3 PTs/BDU, day 4 Class 'A'). There were a number of reasons for this, chief among them were "who got fat and blew off PT" and who looks like a slob in uniform. There were, of course, awards, H&F, and other stuff. You just cannot accomplish those issues by email or text and still retain cohesion and the ability to look your troops in the eye.

Since I've retired and am working as a DAC I have been to some installations where it seems they are running it like corporate America. We are a war fighting force that relies on rules, discipline, cohesion, and, often, rote repetition of various things. If it's too "much" for someone to handle there are tons of jobs out there for you.

Response by TSgt Walter Hirsch made Apr 11 at 2016 1:27 PM

2016-04-11T13:27:41-04:00

I agree with not saluting cars so far but also all people on base do not where burka or other masking affects. And the uniform is a shaved face.

Response by SSgt Matthew Ward made Apr 11 at 2016 4:30 PM

2016-04-11T16:30:14-04:00

I came here because RallyPoint selected a comment from a fellow airman saying something to the extent of "saluting our officers should be done away with, or at least saluting their vehicles" to show on my newsfeed. With all do respect to you if you are reading this, you are an idiot, and on behalf of all Air Force personnel I want to apologize for that SrA's ignorance! Lol

As for SSG Purham's post, formations are also still quite necessary. A few of the positives I can think of off the top of my head are direct communication (we all know how much orders or information can change with every channel they pass through), commanders getting face time with entire units, discipline, professionalism, and the chance to informally or formally inspect uniforms. Hell it even looks better when it's absolutely necessary for units to gather for whatever reason, even if it's a squadron or platoon full of desk jockeys. There's also the military presence it puts out, if I were a civilian I would feel so much comfortable seeing a formation with perfectly formed columns and every sailor/soldier/marine/airman following orders and looking sharp while doing it, knowing that those are the people defending our country! Also think about the message we send to our enemies when they see us in the media looking professional, do you really think we could send the same message without formations? Man I'm only 5'8", I hate being reminded of how short I really am when I wind up in the back of every formation and I don't like spending my time forming up when I could be off with my lady somewhere, but it's still necessary. Now with all the legitimate arguments I can think of out of the way, you're in the military, get the hell over it!

Response by SSG Sofie Martinez made Apr 12 at 2016 7:42 AM

2016-04-12T07:42:57-04:00

This traditions are what instill discipline, responsibility, accountability. What are soldiers supposed to meet up with the 1SG at the local IHOP wearing shorts and flip flops? These traditions have molded soldiers that otherwise would of taken a different turn in life had it not been for traditions. These traditions are there for a reason. Maybe you need to find another more casual line of work.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2016 11:48 AM

2016-04-14T11:48:39-04:00

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
-George Santayana

Response by Lt Col George Muller made May 10 at 2016 11:56 PM

2016-05-10T23:56:26-04:00

Get rid of the artificial barrier between enlisted and officer. In todays military the enlisted personnel are much more educated then in years past. Corporations don't have such a barrier. Let the cream rise to the top the services will be better for it.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jul 23 at 2017 5:51 PM

2017-07-23T17:51:30-04:00

From the tone, it seems like the belief is that we've gone downhill ever since we stopped fletching arrows and shoeing horses =o)

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Jul 24 at 2017 11:00 AM

2017-07-24T11:00:57-04:00

Having read many of the responses here I will have to agree with almost every basic point. Today. from what I can observe from the outside, our troops lack the discipline that was reinforced with those "little" things that we have always done, Formations are in place for accountability reasons, as well as the comradeship of KNOWING that you are not alone, accountability for the same reason that we have always had it, we are still responsible for 17- 21 year old's who are still thinking too big for their britches. It is a part of the growing up process for all of us in any decade you want to name, if anything, the further back we go in time, the MORE responsible the teens were. One of the threads got off on how GPS is so much greater than Land Nav skills, and that is pure BS, anything mechanical can break down, this is a law of facts, parts fail, today, computer parts fail the same as a piston would if in a different manner. but you have to keep in mind that the enemy WANTS you to fail, which is why cyber security is such a thing these days, they can and will introduce a virus or a worm or something else to make your electronics fail. There are satallite killer missiles (we have actually had those on the shelves since the 70's). Knowing the basics as you (supposedly) learn in basic, is only the beginning, that GPS is only intended for you to VERIFY where you are located, putting 40 rounds downrange to hit a piece of paper is only the beginning of knowing how to shoot, ARM used to be taught at FT Benning, this was a moving target range out to 300m, and you had to pass that as well. Bayonet training could very well save your life, because your supply convoy can get interdicted by enemy forces (or as already talked about LOST).
Please do not get me started about the "Safety Nazi's" (my term) this is the military, I was surprised when people freaked out over a broken arm in training (I think most of us were) our job is dangerous on it's face, we are not here to be nice and cuddly, even if we do everything perfect (which we all know is never going to happen) people will die in combat. When we ran on FT Campbell, the main road that everyone ran on was a no vehicle road from 0500-0830 road guard vests were only worn by a few if any, or flashlights. if there is driving going on, then the speed limit is not much more than walking speed, but this is part of YOUR attention to detail, convoy coming through, then the formation gets off the road, simple. If someone gets run over, then there is an investigation and if someone is at fault, they get punished. But wearing road guard vests, or safety belts in a combat zone is stupid in the extreme. easier to just wear a neon sign that says "SHOOT ME" Foxholes are something that will save your lives, but I have seen officers who deem them a "Safety hazard" and want them filled in to no more than 6" deep. but their bunker is 6' deep.
My point, and I believe that of many of us on this chat thread, is that there are reasons for almost every one of our traditions or foibles, and they come down to 2 basic points, they will either help reinforce and deepen our discipline (which will help with the second) it will save lives on the battlefield. (Our lives, I do not care about theirs and neither should you) For myself, I would much rather loose 2 or 3 in training and then everyone on post gets a lesson about it, than loose 20 or 30 on the battlefield. The burned hand teaches best is a phrase that I heard many times. As an NCO I would try to tell you and even show you why this way or that is wrong, but there comes a point where all I can do is stand back and let you find out that, yes, that plate is hot after all. If you truly think something is outdated, I challenge you to stop, take a step back, and really and honestly look at what it is you are trying to change, find out when this was enacted and WHY it was done in the very first place, then look around and see how you can apply it to the soldiers around you, or your situation today. Not saying that some things cannot be modified, but the basic point of everything has a sound reason I would bet more than 90% of the time, and apply today as much as when it was put in place.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 1:14 AM

2017-07-25T01:14:58-04:00

I think a lot of traditions that the Army does is archaic, but that's what makes the Army the Army.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Aug 14 at 2017 6:37 PM

2017-08-14T18:37:55-04:00

I haven't been to one in a few years but the old Army NCO Dining Outs where hard drinking was generally required seems to me to be a bit outdated if they haven't changed already.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2017 1:45 PM

2017-08-22T13:45:57-04:00

I agree there are plenty of "traditions" that need to go as the military has to advance with technology and culture to maintain combat readiness. Formations are not one of those. You can't replace face to face time with soldiers.

Response by SSgt Lynn Bourchier made Aug 22 at 2017 1:47 PM

2017-08-22T13:47:13-04:00

Call me old school, but I am all for keeping traditions. A lot of what people want to get rid of involves discipline & respect - two of the things our society lacks most right now.

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Aug 22 at 2017 2:07 PM

2017-08-22T14:07:02-04:00

the dying cock roach!

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Aug 22 at 2017 2:14 PM

2017-08-22T14:14:52-04:00

Don't ever take formations away from the soldiers because you will completely remove the standard from the FORCE. just because we have computers and cell phone we will always need that face to face to let JOE know we care.

Response by SPC Tommy Faircloth made Aug 22 at 2017 2:39 PM

2017-08-22T14:39:03-04:00

The only thing I'd get rid of is the shitty leaders. I would never change the traditions or standards in the military. Whether you think that there shouldn't be a formation for all those things or not doesn't matter. It's what we've always done and it's what we should continue to do. If you can't stand in a damn rectangular gaggle for 20 fuckin minutes the get out. I think saluting officers vehicles should still be a thing too. Maybe not their povs but they're tactical vehicles we should salute. It's not a sign of them being an officer. It's a respect thing. I think all of these "senior" ncos need to stop being as toxic as the shitheads that they're in charge of and man up and be good ncos.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2017 6:38 PM

2017-08-22T18:38:32-04:00

Night infiltration course has no real practical use today but good workout LOL

Response by SGT Stephen Jaffe made Aug 22 at 2017 6:45 PM

2017-08-22T18:45:35-04:00

Bring back bayonet training. Its the spirit of the original warriors. I wasn't in the infantry, but when I took basic at Ft. Jackson in 1965, many of our cadre were Korean War vets. They told us if we ran out of ammo, the bayonet would be all we had. We were going to die anyway, but you could take some of the enemy with you. Going through bayonet drills does make you feel like a warrior. It did for me anyway.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Aug 22 at 2017 7:53 PM

2017-08-22T19:53:17-04:00

I think they can do away with those ugly fake rifles the platoon is drilling with. Ridiculous. Let me guess without taking more than the Origional quick look they were AF?

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Aug 22 at 2017 7:57 PM

2017-08-22T19:57:22-04:00

@ CSM Charles H. I don't see how either..
I'm AF and I got our shift time changed to a half hr. earlier at Dinning Hall We worked at. Why? Review that their whites were clean(ea. Amn had 6 sets of Cook whites, no excuse they could give would do any good. We had Linen exchange and they sent our whites out every day just about to Fort Lee, VA. We got them back quick too.. Blacked and brushed boots.. they all had a couple pair..
they all had cook's aprons. then we went over the cook work sheets and how the meal was to be prepared , approx timings
Contingencies happen.. so if we might be short, what our back up was.. and everybody was assigned .. I already had their names .. like I said contingencies
Happen so I have to do a switch.. I may not find out until that morn'g.. that's why I wait to write their names in.. I hate messy work plans (scratch outs). I have a rough draft and at that last half hour I transcribe it real neat to the one I turn in .. there's no confusion about what it says.. One of iour main things is keeping clean as we go. Don't get sloppy.. too much of a rush haste makes waste.. don't overload pans..
spill s'thing get it cleaned up, especially grease.. juice.. get a kitchen Orderly to help(civ. Kp)., The 1st Cook and I go over and close out paperwork , make returns if any.. I kinda work close to chest .. on some items ; veg's , meats like liver .. not many like and We prepare pretty close ..
We were giving two pieces, too and I still didn't use more than a case -1/2.. 9 boxes. 108 pcs. 54 svc.. that's not much that want liver when serving about s 1000 troops.. (we had some civilian workers that were authorized to eat).. So L&O was a third item.. BBQ hot dogs went better.. We grilled ours, then poured the sauce over and put on the line.. brown sugar, vinegar, a little mustard, diced onion) best BBQ.. same way on chicken..
We only used instant potatoes for emergency.back up.. I hated them, our troops did too.. If it looked like we be running low We had the 60 gal kettle getting warmed. With water.. if we were sure, crank it up ! Our facility NCO got in some cases (20)of Idaho brand instant flake, these were boxed for Hotels.(2 10lb boxes in a case) Potatoes.. how he got them Force issue(free) I wasn't asking.. I think he did some trading.. because s'how the store room mgr. and him did some black magic.. the books were straight when we were audited.. I got interviewed.. 3 times by our OSI and Army CID.. why, Army I thought? What's going on?.. I fill out my Sr. Cook requisition, turn it in and Stores guy fills it.. what they put on my food cart is what's on my requisition.. make sure they match.. s'times I don't get veg's I ask for..
Some veg's don't go well with some meats.. some people cook them to death.. you can put all the butter in the world and they're still disgusting.. canned veg's are blanched already and don't need much cooking, just be 145•F.-150•F When they go on that line..
I don't load pans to the brim .. by time some items get low, depending what they are don't look good.. try not to let them see bottom of the pan some items it can't be helped. I used the 2" high 13x9 pans as much as possible.. the product went fast didn't have time to get looking sloppy
Because there wasn't that much in the pan.. can't layer to much in 2" 9x13s..
yes I went through a lot of them.. we tell them civ. Contract ldrs to put 2 guys in that scullery if they have to we need those pans ! We made good looking product and wanted it looking good when it gets to the last piece. .. not looking like it was backed over twice.. we encouraged all our Airmen to fill out critiques, good or bad,, the only ones that complained was because the line was too long.. that was true on day before payday.. Every other day we worked late shift(0930-7p). Every other week s'one gets a short weekend.. gets off late on their Friday and goes in early on their Monday. When first got to that base, guys had been on the same shift for a whole couple years..
things got shook up and the cliques got broke up.. a few guys got booted out for the scam(s) they pulled.. I'd ask where
A1C J_____ was, oh he's TDY.. why isn't he on the TDY board. I asked.. I don't know, I don't do the board.. where's the Sgt. That does it? Oh, he's on leave.. who's taking his place doing the board? Oh SSG K_____. Where's he? On leave..
Then we had the shaking up.. new Cmdr.
New 1SG, new admin Ofcr.. New Food Svc
Mgt team.. for a while we had meetings every week.. it seemed.. finally things fell in place.. and it all started working like a well oiled machine.. We got new Airmen in to fill the slots of those booted out and those that got orders..

Response by CPT John Sheridan made Aug 22 at 2017 9:10 PM

2017-08-22T21:10:34-04:00

Physical fitness. Who needs that when you can kill people from your couch on Xbox? All of this toting around firearms too. Don't we want to be a kinder, gentler society? Uniforms. We are a nation of individuals. Why should service members be denied the opportunity to be fashionable at work?

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Aug 22 at 2017 11:43 PM

2017-08-22T23:43:40-04:00

I have to disagree with you. In my opinion the reason those traditions were established was to teach one simple thing, "Attention To Detail". In the military as in life its not the big things the will get you, its the little things that you have to look out for. Technology will only take you so far.

Response by SPC Justin Foster made Aug 24 at 2017 9:29 PM

2017-08-24T21:29:24-04:00

The good idea fairy, while sometimes good, can be a dangerous creature. Often traditions are traditions for a reason. I'll leave it at that.

Response by SP6 Gerald Clemens made Apr 10 at 2018 2:10 PM

2018-04-10T14:10:10-04:00

Traditions! Why do all these new troops wish to dispense with traditions? This is where the core values come from, this is what sets the military apart from civilians, and contractor's...I'm glad I've retired, lol... My turn to tell the stories..."In my day...Up hill both ways, through the snow..on foot..with a ARMY SMILE..." TRADITIONS!

Response by SSG Brian Carpeneter made Apr 10 at 2018 2:38 PM

2018-04-10T14:38:45-04:00

The problem with your opinion is that it is already been determined that all these are coming back because lack of discipline in the ranks. Let's talk about NCO's that don't know how to insert magazines, soldiers who are being chaptered disrespecting their COC and nothing being done about it, ragged ass uniforms and personal hygiene as well as no pride in being a soldier when off post.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2018 4:21 PM

2018-04-10T16:21:58-04:00

I couldn’t agree more SFC, the reliance on technology is far too much.

It’s far better to learn how we got to where we are vs relying on a box. I went to college for Engineering, everything today is done by computers from Drafting to machining a prototype, when I first started we didn’t touch technology for almost a year. You had to hand draw, hand machine and the only thing you got to work with is a calculator. You learned how it all works so you didn’t have to rely on technology to be a crutch to get your mission done.

Crawl,walk,run, it’s the best education you will ever receive, building a strong foundation of the fundamentals to exceed the standards for the future

Response by SPC Rick LaBonte made Apr 10 at 2018 5:08 PM

2018-04-10T17:08:55-04:00

The bayonet needs to go- has there been a bayonet charge since WW1? And officers that demand being saluted in a combat zone need to rethink that-they might as well paint a target on their head!

Response by SGT Joshua Strup made Apr 10 at 2018 5:41 PM

2018-04-10T17:41:28-04:00

Technology will improve, but military bearing, discipline, and tactics do not. What may seem outdated and archaic is part of establishing the foundation of these principles; thus, integral to military life.

Response by PO1 Barbara Matthews made Apr 10 at 2018 6:50 PM

2018-04-10T18:50:36-04:00

We had plenty of formations in the Navy, only they were called "muster", basically the same thing.

On a ship, especially one at sea they are vital to ensure nobody's missing out fallen overboard.

It is an effective way to get information out quickly to everyone. As a leader it would be a headache to try and find everyone to pass information one at a time.

Response by 1SG Juan Calva made Apr 10 at 2018 8:03 PM

2018-04-10T20:03:47-04:00

Amen. Formations need to stay.

Response by HN Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2018 9:22 PM

2018-04-10T21:22:41-04:00

Look, when you get down to it, we need to be effective and efficient. And the US military is neither. You wanna tell me heritage is our backbone, and technology is our new god, but here's the truth. Forget the military for a second. Think about life in 50 years. All the technological, societal, and economical progress we're going to make. Now scale it back to now. The military is slow to adapt to the current time, but it does and will. Field excercises make sense for infantry. But a drone? Or an unmanned recon boat? Think about practicality. So yeah, in those terms, a lot of time honored traditions will become obsolete. Formations, change of command ceremonies, hell most ceremonies in general, they don't affect combat readiness. We are a fighting force, not a parade. We need to become more utilitarian. You can have tradition and still be utilitarian. Use a proper time and place for both

Response by SSG Jeff Gerfen made Apr 10 at 2018 9:25 PM

2018-04-10T21:25:39-04:00

Call me old school, I don’t care but Military formations are an integral part of discipline and good order in the Military. it shows we can function as a team, and as a fighting force, it instills esprit de corps and pride in your unit instead of this stupid willy-nilly crap. Don’t get me wrong technology does have a place in the modern military but so do formations

Response by LTC William Fisher made Apr 11 at 2018 8:02 AM

2018-04-11T08:02:42-04:00

As a new 2LT the best advice I received was to "listen to and talk to the NCO's" Most of these old soldiers were Korean war, WWII and early Viet Nam vintage. Most of them had "seen the elephat". My concern now is the the "old soldiers" now grew up in the era of technology. Can they teach what they may never have been taught? Tradition, discipline and training are the bed rock virtues that our Army must be based on. Teach the basics! One more thing, from experience"never wear your cover in the 1SGT's orderly room or give direction to the Bn Sgt Maj" Lessons learned the hard way.

Response by SGT Nathan G. made Apr 11 at 2018 9:38 AM

2018-04-11T09:38:36-04:00

I like the concept of formations, personally. As many have said, Face to face communication is the best way to interact with soldiers instead of email/texting.

Response by SSG Ron Raade made Apr 11 at 2018 11:46 AM

2018-04-11T11:46:06-04:00

The idea that traditions are outdated, is why we have them. Go to land nav without gps, why so you can function without it. Texts, phone calls not sure how you evaluate appearence without seeing the Troop. Yes the Military has old fashion traditions and some seem outdated but they each have a reason. Formations allow a leader to see and gauge Troops. So if you do not enjoy it go be a civilian.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2018 12:48 PM

2018-04-11T12:48:13-04:00

Alot of the people commenting are the exact reason we have to keep lowering standards. When retention sucks, you need to suck from a bigger recruitment pool. Maybe some of you seniors should think about that.

Response by LCpl Richard Brennan made Apr 11 at 2018 1:00 PM

2018-04-11T13:00:50-04:00

Tradition, Order, Discipline. Without them you have a mob. And the head photo shows some ridiculous people with fake rifles and silly hats.

Response by SPC David Cimperman Jr. made Apr 11 at 2018 2:20 PM

2018-04-11T14:20:28-04:00

Here is a tradition to get did of. All the long drawn out ceremonies when troops return from deployments. Not every O something needs to spend 60 minutes talking about how great everyone is. Families are waiting.
My speech? "Thanks for all your hard work, see you back for PT Monday, DISMISSED "

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2018 2:36 PM

2018-04-11T14:36:02-04:00

I hated countless formations when I was in the Marines and now that I’m in the Army I don’t like going to pointless ones, but they are necessary to maintain good accountability of the personnel. That’s is an easy for juniors to get in trouble and no one know about it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2018 2:45 PM

2018-04-11T14:45:56-04:00

Mandatory short hair for men.
It's sexist, it's discriminatory, expensive, unfair, and it singles us out to terrorists.

Response by LTC John Rogers made Apr 11 at 2018 5:23 PM

2018-04-11T17:23:18-04:00

We need to return to a more traditional miltary when it comes to customs

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made Apr 11 at 2018 5:34 PM

2018-04-11T17:34:02-04:00

All D&C is outdated. One half originates with tactics from the era of muskets (such as 4 ranks deep and spacing rules). The other hal comes from the days when the old aristocracy held most officer positions.

Response by SGT Tj Casiano made Apr 11 at 2018 5:36 PM

2018-04-11T17:36:22-04:00

Military, at least army customs and traditions are meant to stay in place for the sake of posterity. I got out of the military 8 years ago, but I think that military Traditions is part of what brought a sense of fulfillment. It's obviously not the only thing or even the most important thing but it is one of those things promotes unit cohesion in my opinion.

Response by SGT Tj Casiano made Apr 11 at 2018 5:54 PM

2018-04-11T17:54:14-04:00

I think the specialist rank should be done away with.

Response by SPC William Szkromiuk made Apr 11 at 2018 6:59 PM

2018-04-11T18:59:51-04:00

This particular question.....errr remark sounds a lot like a "weather forecast" to me. Prediction.............snowflakes! Sorry, what is newer is not necessarily better 100% of the time.

Response by LCDR Tim McKenzie made Apr 11 at 2018 7:09 PM

2018-04-11T19:09:46-04:00

Those traditions are what make the military special. We should march, hold inspection and reward rank with privileges. We need to go backwards.... otherwise the military will be a corporate entity.

Response by SFC Raymond Morales made Apr 11 at 2018 7:37 PM

2018-04-11T19:37:03-04:00

It’s tradition, get over it

Response by SFC Raymond Morales made Apr 11 at 2018 7:39 PM

2018-04-11T19:39:13-04:00

It’s tradition and part of the day to day activities. Deal with it!

Response by Cpl Mark Sullivan made Apr 11 at 2018 9:18 PM

2018-04-11T21:18:39-04:00

Formations and drill ate taught so you learn instant obedience to orders

Response by SPC Michael Dehn made Apr 11 at 2018 9:38 PM

2018-04-11T21:38:06-04:00

To me, at least, formations are a very important tool. Things can get lost in translation. Especially in a text. I wouldn't call a formation outdated. I understand technology can help. But not in this case Formations are tried and true. Why mess with something that works,?

Response by 1SG Paul Beal made Apr 11 at 2018 9:43 PM

2018-04-11T21:43:21-04:00

High tech will never replace high touch. While technology can be a great tool ( my company commander daughter was able to sign off on a last minute “0-dark-thirty” issue for a soldier at 1930 while on the phone with me) leaders will still be at PT formation leading the way in the early morning. A text message can never replace leadership by example.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Apr 11 at 2018 9:44 PM

2018-04-11T21:44:46-04:00

I will bring up just one point that I feel has merit, it was called “The Doolittle Board”

Response by SFC John Diane Loyal made Apr 11 at 2018 9:48 PM

2018-04-11T21:48:37-04:00

Some people just will bitch if you hung them with a new rope

Response by SPC William Wells made Apr 11 at 2018 10:27 PM

2018-04-11T22:27:17-04:00

Formations build unity and trust.

Response by PFC Robert Shadwick made Apr 11 at 2018 10:43 PM

2018-04-11T22:43:30-04:00

Some things were a pain in the well you know what. But traditions build esprit De corp. In stills loyalty, respect. Leadership from the bottom up. You have to respect the rank, it doesn't matter how you feel about your leader or your followers as long as they have your back, and you have theres.

Response by MAJ Doug Mattox made Apr 12 at 2018 12:07 AM

2018-04-12T00:07:06-04:00

The only time I chewed butt heavily in Iraq was when a subordinate sent a tex message to a unit about an enemy position and did not follow up immediately, actually he did not follow up. Took awhile to come down after that one

Response by PFC Tom Burgess made Apr 12 at 2018 12:35 AM

2018-04-12T00:35:28-04:00

I come from a culture that every marine is a basic rifleman. I think that is a good place to start. USMC 66-68

Response by SSG Joshua Tanton made Apr 12 at 2018 12:52 AM

2018-04-12T00:52:16-04:00

Formation is also not just for face to face. It’s to physically see if your soldiers are doing ok in appearance and hygiene. Also to put information out to the masses. To keep the chain of command in tact. It’s nice to know exactly what’s going on and when and if you’re lucky you might now why.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 1:09 AM

2018-04-12T01:09:10-04:00

I do not think traditions are the issue. I think it comes down to a leadership issue. It comes down to time managment to be honest. I mean if I have micromanging leader and im in formation six times a day then sure it is an issue. But if those formations are for valid reasons then ok. Its all dependent on the situation really. I think the biggest non official tradition we need to fix is the emphasis of focusing on the little things. My unit was the only combat engineer company in the brigade. We had the M2A2 ODS-E, yet everyone else had the A3s. So as the onlh engineer unit we had shitty equipment than an entire BN of infantry. Yet big army is more concerned with stupid shit like black socks in PTs or headphones or another uniform change. How ablut we focus on readiness and not trying to appease joe.

Response by MSgt Ronnie Sherwood made Apr 12 at 2018 2:10 AM

2018-04-12T02:10:20-04:00

The military is the military, not some social club or business environment. Start doing away with those things that separate the military from every other organization, and you no longer have the discipline, cohesiveness, and other factors which make a military organization what it is. You want to be part of a social club, join a social club. You want to operate in a business environment, go to work for a business. If you are joining the military, be prepared to accept those things that make a military unit what it is. Saying that the military needs to change, or adapt, or grow up with the times, is just a way of turning us into Burger King, so you "can have it your way ".

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 12 at 2018 2:42 AM

2018-04-12T02:42:20-04:00

Reading some the responses this morning, I can certainly tell who actually read the article, read a couple of sentences, or just read the title. LOL. In either case, great commentary.

Response by MSgt Frank Graham made Apr 12 at 2018 4:15 AM

2018-04-12T04:15:32-04:00

Get rid of all the guns and other weapons also. We don't want to hurt anybody. We'll just talk to the people who want to kill us and ask them not to cut people's heads off anymore.

Response by MSgt Frank Graham made Apr 12 at 2018 4:18 AM

2018-04-12T04:18:09-04:00

Let's get rid of the uniforms, guns, and other weapons. We'll just talk to the bad guys and ask them to behave.

Response by SSG Curtis Mcneill made Apr 12 at 2018 4:47 AM

2018-04-12T04:47:43-04:00

Keep the traditional formations they are still important part of the military.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 5:34 AM

2018-04-12T05:34:19-04:00

I think the exact opposite. The entire military needs to go back to standard customs and courtesies, old school disciplinr and bring back intensive training during basic training. Basic land navigation especially. What happens if the GPS goes down or you are in a multiple canopy jungle environment and the GPS won't work because it can't finf the satalites? I have yet to see a map and compass fail. I have seen morons screw things up with a map and compass, but that is a training failure. I thought we were supposed to learn from our mistakes. When the 507th Maintenance GPS went down during the invasion phase of OIF, they did 2 things wrong. If you are unsure of your location and not in danger, you stay put. I don't know who was in charge of that unit, but a decision was made to keep moving. They drove right into an Iraqi position and got decimated. We all remember the Special Ooerations (Army SF & AF PJs) rescue of Jessica Lynch. If one person in that unit knew basic land navigation they probably would have avoided enemy contact. Leave the contact to the Combat Arms guys who are specifically trained to handle it.
I will however give you one thing that needs to go: All those pockets and not being allowed to put your hands in them is just dumb. Ike was caught several times with his hands in his pockets.

Response by SSgt Bill Charles made Apr 12 at 2018 6:05 AM

2018-04-12T06:05:34-04:00

That is exactly not what is wrong with today's military. What is destroying the military is the absence of custom and courtesy that have had a foundation in keeping the warfighter in a military enviroment.
We cannot do without the technology but never let it rule.
Customs and Courtesy are the backbone of a well run organization

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 6:07 AM

2018-04-12T06:07:33-04:00

Really this platform and a formations rant wow, how about the dumb looking Navy dress uniform. I keep hearing about tradition but every other branch has updated their uniforms to a more modern style why don't we

Response by CWO4 Ray Whiteaker made Apr 12 at 2018 7:06 AM

2018-04-12T07:06:07-04:00

We went down hill when we stopped carrying swagger sticks. Formations, manual of arms, close order drill are essential to be building a highly disciplined, “well-oiled” war machine, unit. If you don’t like leave it.

Response by SPC John Scheelk made Apr 12 at 2018 8:09 AM

2018-04-12T08:09:39-04:00

I was overseas in Army Signal Intel units. One formation in 11 months in Japan. 2 formations in my first three months in Thailand and none in the last nine months. We knew where the Ops Building was and what time we had to be there. All communications took place while at the Ops building.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Apr 12 at 2018 8:45 AM

2018-04-12T08:45:48-04:00

Okay I am going to catch some Flak on this one but it is my thoughts and that is what RP is about. So lets just grow our hair, out and grow long beards, skip weapons training, forget map reading, skip PT, Just forget it all. Have little 9-5 office job Do every thing by cell phone, and sure lets Make the Military issue your super cell phone/apps, then we can just sit at home or in the barracks and not have to interact with one another. The Military has work better and been better organized than the civilians for hundreds of years many organizations have model close but not exact to the Military and had better success with that. Now by all means lets just get rid of the standard things that offend every one because some one wants or doesn't want to do something. What happened to the real Military where Soldiers wanted to Soldier instead or change everything to fit them. The best way to get good account of Soldiers is to see them face to face. If That Offends you Maybe you need to ETS and be done with it. What you find or anyone else, no longer a Necessary or not needed is not exactly what make the Military (THE MILITARY) . Maybe we can just find a place like star bucks to meet for morning coffee and then spend the rest of the day sunning in the back of the billets we don't need all the traditional things like training and so on we are already the best so it is not needed either. JMT

Response by SFC Mark Klaers made Apr 12 at 2018 9:15 AM

2018-04-12T09:15:33-04:00

Formations are vital to unit cohesion! I've seen what electronic communication has done for the breakdown of first line leadership. Without direct interaction with your troops they won't know you and you won't know them. As a leader, your presence must be seen constantly, not just felt. Leading from the rear or at a distance will always fail. Like Patton said when asked why he always was out front..."Have you ever tried to push a string?"

Response by LCpl Aaron Freeman made Apr 12 at 2018 9:25 AM

2018-04-12T09:25:46-04:00

Personally, I could've done without some of the mindgames... I would've been much happier in my time in service, without meeting Milton Bradley...

Response by SSG Erik McKinster made Apr 12 at 2018 9:40 AM

2018-04-12T09:40:21-04:00

It's all about good order and discipline. So disciple yourself, suck it up and drive on.

Response by SSG Mike Bell made Apr 12 at 2018 10:29 AM

2018-04-12T10:29:17-04:00

Land nav and the use of a map is very important if your gps dies. You could walk in to deep shit.

Response by SPC Thomas Bourland made Apr 12 at 2018 10:44 AM

2018-04-12T10:44:34-04:00

This in my opinion falls along side of previous Kvetch sessions of having to stand at attention for retreat or when family complain about listening to the sound of troops running and doing what soldiers do... Formations serve numerous purposes including but not limited to accountability, determination of whether or not your soldiers are meeting standards and hygiene. While text and FB are a tool one should not rely on gadgets to achieve the mission.

Response by MSgt Ashton Reams made Apr 12 at 2018 11:08 AM

2018-04-12T11:08:30-04:00

I have to say I disagree. Formations serve many purposes, only one of which is communication and many of which are difficult to directly see or describe.

Response by SSG Richard StJohn made Apr 12 at 2018 11:28 AM

2018-04-12T11:28:34-04:00

There are certain traditions that are essential to instill pride in your unit, branch of service and Esprit De Corps. All of these examples are part of that tasking. I think it would be disasterous to do away with any of these activities.

Response by SGT Dale Burke made Apr 12 at 2018 12:29 PM

2018-04-12T12:29:00-04:00

Getting lazy is never a good option, and we all hated having to make formations. However, it ingrained punctuality, discipline and a few other character traits. I agree with Zach. The fundamentals have worked for a very long time. You may not like, or understand, the underlying objectives of a particular military tradition, or method. That doesn't make it obsolete. The attitude expressed by this individual is indicative of the current break-down in bearing, discipline, and esprit de corpe, that has been identified, and is being addressed at the basic training level, by military leadership. Its time to eliminate this idea that you can pick and choose what to comply with, or accept, while ignoring what you dislike.

Response by SGT Thom Knott made Apr 12 at 2018 2:21 PM

2018-04-12T14:21:25-04:00

Why dont we get rid of our uniforms. Grow out our hair and wear casual sportswear. We could all get jobs at McDonalds.... I think we step back to about 1980.

Response by PV2 Mark Wilson made Apr 12 at 2018 2:43 PM

2018-04-12T14:43:20-04:00

One must maintain discipline. One has to honor the past, and teach not the how to, but also the why.

Now here is something that can be done away with, and it is slowly happening..ALL soldiers, Marines, Seamen, Airmen, Guardies should be able to participate in the Combat Arts (infantry, Armor) Male and female alike

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 2:50 PM

2018-04-12T14:50:00-04:00

I'm all for keeping the face to face formations text messaging is to informal to in personal

Response by PO2 Karl Lehn made Apr 12 at 2018 3:11 PM

2018-04-12T15:11:37-04:00

Many of these traditions remind the junior ranks that they are in the military ans contributes to good order and discipline.

Response by SFC Deb N Bob Spruill made Apr 12 at 2018 3:20 PM

2018-04-12T15:20:20-04:00

“You can not, not communicate”! Texting is the poorest form of communication!

Response by SGT Patrick Knockwood made Apr 12 at 2018 3:25 PM

2018-04-12T15:25:55-04:00

Traditions in the military were formed long ago as a way to teach us, boost morale and learn discipline, respect, teamwork and other such things.
Most soldiers do not see the bigger picture. If they actually researched some of the traditions they can learn about some of the military's history and some of it could and has saved lives.
What you may not see in a tradition as necessary could have a whole different meaning to another soldier and a positive effect on them. To say a tradition is not necessary is solely a matter of opinion. I for 1 could not stand singing the Dog face soldier every morning but after leaving the military, I'm glad we did. I'm proud of that song and the fact that I served in 3rd I D. I guess what im trying to say here is, what may not seem important to you, may be important to someone else and may become important to you some time in the future.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 3:38 PM

2018-04-12T15:38:18-04:00

My point of view might not matter but I'd have to say that running things through text messages and phone calls would never work. It would be to easy to say "I never got the text or call" and phone signal is always reliable. If you say something right to a person's face you know for sure that they got the in formation. Also D&C is a dying art that needs to be brought back to life, my PSG encourages us to practice at and give time in our down time

Response by SSgt Bruce Probert made Apr 12 at 2018 3:55 PM

2018-04-12T15:55:08-04:00

It is our respect for each other and belonging to something larger than ourselves that binds us together. Morning formation is more than just a formation it is the tradition that we start each day with the affirmation that we stand ready and that we are all present and accounted for each NCO and Officer in turn takes their responsibility. Tradition is the glue that holds us together when the going gets tough those before us didn't quit and gives us a reason not to. Formation reminds leadership what their responsibility looks like the holes reminds them of the sacrifice and losses and gives a daily window on morale so if you think the old ways are a waste of time. Then maybe you don't belong in this Brotherhood. I served proudly and I'm still proud of my service It has been my honor to render honors to some very fine NCO's and Officers. I have been honored by the return.

Response by SGT Scotty Faircloth made Apr 12 at 2018 5:59 PM

2018-04-12T17:59:55-04:00

Totally agree, every soldier should have to pass the land nav with no electronics, needs no explanation, common sense(seems there's little of this anymore). People always bitch about formations.....get over it, when info needs to be put out, it needs to be face to face, no excuses cupcakes, it also keeps soldiers in check, this is the military, not a f...in meet and greet. Old school got things done, this new military needs to get a grip......

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 12 at 2018 6:00 PM

2018-04-12T18:00:35-04:00

CQ/Staff Duty

Cell phones made these obsolete years ago.

Response by SGT Scotty Faircloth made Apr 12 at 2018 6:27 PM

2018-04-12T18:27:07-04:00

Question.
Just before I got out in 2013, when smokin a derilect soldier, was told I couldn't make him do more than 20 reps of corrective training, of course there are ways around this. Is this still going on?

Response by SGT Nick Kilday made Apr 12 at 2018 7:53 PM

2018-04-12T19:53:18-04:00

I disagree with this being the one thing that is talked about getting shitcanned from the Army. Formation is a top unit function for command to get proper accountability as well as pure dissemination of information. I think from my experience is to backtrack back to the old ways of doing things. Before my retirement NCOs and senior leaders were constantly walking on egg shells because the younger soldiers did everything they could to make a mockery of the military and thinking it’s ok to get away with it. It angered me to a cellular level. I had to put my knifehand away and get my soldiers a bear and a blanket to go along with their 4856s. Most of them anyway.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 7:58 PM

2018-04-12T19:58:24-04:00

More traditions need to come back. Traditions weather you agree with them or not actually do serve a purpose . I have no problem with saluting. I have no problem with formation....unless its the never ending dont do stupid shit formation on fridays

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 8:49 PM

2018-04-12T20:49:42-04:00

To tell you the truth, I am very surprised this is on a senior ncos page, because it is the topic of discussions for privates/junior sergeants to cry about, and by me saying privates I mean the general lack of knowledge and care about the Army. The Army isn't about you or me, it is about the Army and the stewardship of the profession.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 9:55 PM

2018-04-12T21:55:08-04:00

Don’t really agree with formations going away. I do agree that they are over used and redundant at times, but they serve a purpose, and I think the discipline that D&C CAN provide when properly executed is invaluable and missed. However things I think need to change/update:
1. Leave forms. Every other branch operates digitally, so should we. Put a “leave” link on AKO fill out a da-31, attach a LES, forward to first line. End of story. No more “lost” no more waiting to get seen by so and so. E-mail is checked and handled with much more frequency than an inbox especially when it goes to CSM, BC’s blackberry. Too many soldiers are getting in bad situations from leave forms taking 1-2 months to go across the street. It’s a paperless Army right?

2. Staff duty- pass around a duty cell phone and call in case of emergency. Factor this in with subject 1. And there is no longer a reason to have to manage a leave book and go sign out, or sign back in. Leave start date means “YOUR LEAVE STARTS ON THAT DATE.” Also the security thing is mostly Outdated. Many installations have locks on timers and other such security measures. And as far as CQ goes, every single person in those barracks are old enough to rent/buy an appartmemt or house. Nobody is going to there to make sure they are behaving right? If something breaks in their house they have to pay to fix it right? Hold these adults responsible, something gets jacked up, you’re paying for it. Someone calls the MP’s on you for acting foolish, you’re getting locked up. We trust them to be armed and watch our 6 where it matters, but not to behave themselves in their own apartment building.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 10:23 PM

2018-04-12T22:23:44-04:00

So instead of getting everyone into one mass area to pass word you want people to telephone relay the information. Just because someone has a phone or email doesn’t mean they read it, or play the oh I didn’t see it game. The majority of the armed forces is early 20’s that are just learning about adulting and you want to give them an inch. You give an inch and they’ll take a mile. Just because it might be inconvenient to people doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a good sound purpose. Technology doesn’t teach discipline and fundamentals, it aids and makes the knowledge you already ha e more powerful. What other things besides formation (weak example) could be done away with?

Response by TSgt Don Mott made Apr 12 at 2018 10:40 PM

2018-04-12T22:40:23-04:00

Just two comments! Forget the past and you are doomed to relive It!
And
A structure is only as good as it's foundation!
Some things do NOT need to change so the feeble can feel strong!
Just Sayn!!!

Response by PFC Duane Snell made Apr 12 at 2018 11:28 PM

2018-04-12T23:28:28-04:00

Its called drill and ceremony. Its part of the Army. Get used to it, because its coming back even stronger. Im guessing you are one of the new millenial entitled types.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 11:40 PM

2018-04-12T23:40:31-04:00

Physical Fitness needs a severe revamp. The Army PT program is the most ludicrous joke I’ve ever seen in my life. Too many units just run, do push-ups and sit-ups, and that’s all they do. Sure, the current PT program allows all sorts of decent and challenging exercise, but most of the Army upper leadership is to blind to even take a look at the book and realize that you can do stuff besides those 3 things. I’m glad progress is being made on changing the PT test, however, I believe they made a critical mistake by keeping the 2 mile run. The 2 mile run doesn’t judge endurance properly, at all. All it really judges is if you know how to breath. (Disclosure, I’m a sub 13 min runner, no, I’m not saying this because I hate running.)

Promotions, good mother of god, it’s atrocious. Yeah, the recent changes will make a difference, but severe damage has been done. Maybe it’s just bad in ADA, but the buddy promotions, false leadership, and NCO corruption are off the charts. I see maybe 1 out of every 15 NCO’s that actually give a damn about their soldiers beyond what’s required of them to look professional. Hell, I wanted to be a great NCO one upon a time, but what I’ve witnessed across my soon to end six years, has completely disgusted me.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2018 11:43 PM

2018-04-12T23:43:29-04:00

Also, on the formation note, PT formation, work call formation, and end of day formation. That’s all that’s needed except in briefing situations. Any formations beside that is IMO an excuse not to one on one your soldiers. NCO to individual soldier relationship is critical to effective leadership.

Response by MSgt Richard Gal made Apr 12 at 2018 11:48 PM

2018-04-12T23:48:15-04:00

Being in the military is all about deep rooted tradition. It’s the foundation of structure and order on how the military functions. If this is not what you want, there’s plenty of 9 to 5 jobs. The military is not about I, it’s about building team work and earning respect and that is what formations and saluting teaches us.

Response by 1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2018 1:30 AM

2018-04-13T01:30:33-04:00

Formations are necessary for those in command to literally touch base with their men. Technology will never replace the active voice

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2018 2:30 AM

2018-04-13T02:30:10-04:00

1. Organized PT should be Revamped to incorporate more regimented combatives (jiu-jitsu), and weight training. PRT and "do you know all of the x y z things in order" is super sham and silly and gets nobody's blood boiling.
2. Shooting should be less about "outcome" and more about performance.
3. Why do we need a band? Or even dress uniforms? or a good conduct medal? AAM's are handed out like candy... I get a lot of heat for this one.
There's new stuff that needs to go as well such as...
1. Online certs... Mostly useless and exploitable BS that doesn't even work half of the time because of the ridiculousness of army websites. Why don't they have information like how to program an MBITR? or a JCR simulator? If anything should be mandatory it should be stuff of that nature. but no... SHARP...
2. Safety briefs... Formations have their place but, unless there is actual pertinent information to be shared it's just redundancy.

Response by PO1 Richard Borowski made Apr 13 at 2018 3:34 AM

2018-04-13T03:34:54-04:00

I think that most of the traditions have been proven because they work. Does anybody remember the old saw "If it isn't broke, don't fix it" ? Out of school any real traditions are there because they work the best.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2018 3:49 AM

2018-04-13T03:49:12-04:00

SrA Paul Pfeil , the navy has actually done away with this. When I was enlisted 6 years ago it was a thing. And then when I commissioned it was gone

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 13 at 2018 4:29 AM

2018-04-13T04:29:18-04:00

I agree that formations are a great tool to utilize to share information and have face-to-face time with your unit/soldiers. As I stated in the article, those things can and should be done outside of a formation anyways. I used formations as a stark point; not to be absolute. Some comments have pointed to things that are no longer necessary or can be utilized as a "traditional practice". Take for instance, Manual of Arms and Rifle D&C cannot be done when units have transitioned to M4s or M9s all together. Staff Duty/CQ in a lot of units are going away and having duty phones assigned.

Most non-traditional units are mixed becoming mixed organizations with services (joint) or mostly civilians. Do you think Mr. Smith and Mrs. Ross are going to 0630 formation? Or 1700 safety brief formation? NO. We point to es sprit de corps and Leadership as the necessary components to having a formation - to be seen and heard. If that is the necessity for your approach to leadership and building a team, you may want to re-evaluate that.

Once again, I point out, I can tell who actually read and understood the article.

Response by CWO4 Tim Hecht made Apr 13 at 2018 5:12 AM

2018-04-13T05:12:26-04:00

In the play and the movie: "FIDDLER ON THE ROOF" Tradition is the opening song for the musical. In the song, the main character, Tevye, explains the roles of each social class in the village of Anatevka, and how the traditional roles of people like the matchmaker, the beggar, and the rabbi contribute to the village.

Although the formation is but one of many of the military's traditions I see it as still being a vital part of the entire military culture. It is but one small, but important part of the military that is crucial to a unit or the service being successful in their mission be it combat or maintaining the pay records. That vital cog is discipline.

Discipline is core root of the military; without it there is no cohesiveness, no ability to act as a unit. Sure we're all trained to take the initiative; but the bottom line is when the NCO or Officer in Charge says fall in - it should be automatic - you fall in. Sure e-mails, text messages, i.e. social media is a great way to send out information but the physical formation; the morning PT run through housing (living in Military District of Washington DC Housing which was part of Ft. Belvoir) by Army Units in the AM showed me that what a better way to show discipline and the cohesiveness of a unit?

So Tradition - its important - just as everyone wearing the same uniform; (remember "HEARTBREAK RIDGE" and the Tee Shirt issue); the formation, and other traditional tasks, are what teaches us (well maybe me, retired 17 years ago after 30 years) how to be a cohesive unit; not a bunch of individuals responding to quarters (formation in the Navy and Coast Guard) with their I-Phones or Tablets...

Response by SSgt Ryan Jensen made Apr 13 at 2018 6:34 AM

2018-04-13T06:34:57-04:00

Sounds like the words of a B.O.B...formations are commonly utilized to pass on critical information that shouldn't be relayed via text or email, to ensure one cannot utilize the excuse, "Sorry, I didn't receive that." Formations are necessary for a lot of career fields, not as many in the AF as other branches possibly, but aside from ceremonies, my AFSC had formation every day before posting. It allowed the Flight Chief to physically see that his or her troops knew what was expected for the day and we all were prepared....because E3s and E4s will almost always try to skate on required gear or "extracurricular" gear

Response by PFC Evan Bortner made Apr 13 at 2018 7:37 AM

2018-04-13T07:37:39-04:00

Listen, a lot of the customs and courtesies can be, to put it frankly, a pain in the ass, but it’s part of the military’s core foundation of what it was built on. Like the old saying goes, there’s a reason for everything.

Response by SFC Phillip Allen made Apr 13 at 2018 7:39 AM

2018-04-13T07:39:42-04:00

The military is built on its traditions. Some of the comments show a lack of respect for, or further a lack of understanding the purpose and benefits of some of these “outdated” traditions. If anything the military should be reemphasizing these systems. D&C, weapons drill; formal inspections, Class A, B; land navigation, etc.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2018 8:36 AM

2018-04-13T08:36:24-04:00

I agree with the part that not all formations are needed, they can be a waste of time. At least make it informal, no one wants to stand at parade rest for god knows how long just to listen to some bullshit spew from someone’s mouth

Response by PO3 Joel Henderson made Apr 13 at 2018 8:50 AM

2018-04-13T08:50:39-04:00

It's that exact attitude that is making the military less and less military like. The powers that be give in to whining and this is what you get. Tradition is one of the things you're buying into when you join. You're not applying for an 8-5 job. If that's what you want then please go do it. Next you'll be asking to drop that pesky uniform requirement.

Response by LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr. made Apr 13 at 2018 9:29 AM

2018-04-13T09:29:17-04:00

I’ve been retired (medically) since 85. I worked for the Navy as a civil Servant for 20 years. One base I worked at had a Marine Corps Security Force Bn. I talked to a couple of young Lance Corporals and Corporals and asked about their land navigation capabilities. They spoke of GPS and other gadgets and never mentioned the “3” major navigation tools: 1. A map, 2.A compass, 3. The Brain housing group!
I told them to meet me on a Saturday morning and to bring a base map and their compasses. When the showed up I had my 25 year old compass and case( I had my 782 gear all 1970’s issue) they had the same compass I had only newer ( still wrapped in paper). We spent 4 hours going over the principles of land nav and actually moving from Point A to B then to C! Two of the L/Cpls were set to go to the Corporals course soon, upon their return they proudly showed the note from the lead instructor commending them for showing initiative by getting maps and compasses and helping their classmates in LandNav. Felt good to help those young men!

Response by SP5 Barry Brasfield made Apr 13 at 2018 9:33 AM

2018-04-13T09:33:50-04:00

It attention to details they are teaching and how to follow instructions

Response by SPC John Phillips made Apr 13 at 2018 10:40 AM

2018-04-13T10:40:33-04:00

Bring in the military isn’t like working at Starbucks. Formations are part of the accountability process that is inherent in the military. Yes, they do seem useless sometimes, but if you get irritated about attending formation, what else won’t you be willing to tolerate? It part of the deal!

Response by SP5 Billy Anderson made Apr 13 at 2018 12:27 PM

2018-04-13T12:27:51-04:00

If you can’t do it the old way what are you going to do when the battery or system goes down and you can’t read a map or use a compass, you will be lost & possibly be killed or captured in war! We depend to much on technology! Hooah

Response by SPC Dawn Appelberg (Johnson) made Apr 13 at 2018 1:23 PM

2018-04-13T13:23:00-04:00

To be blunt, I am really annoyed with the new age thinking about the military. It is not a civilian gig. It is not a safe space. It was not meant to be a free ride and an ego boosting adventure. Most of those joining now would NEVER have made it through even 15 years ago.

Formations serve a purpose. Saluting a purpose. At attention, parade rest, lock up, and smoked out all serve purposes. These new recruits have NO military bearing or respect.

Response by SPC Bill Schatzman made Apr 13 at 2018 2:11 PM

2018-04-13T14:11:07-04:00

Get over your self, this is not a civilian job, it is the Military, you have formation! Be on time, uniform squared away! Be the example!

Response by SGM David Laycock made Apr 13 at 2018 2:14 PM

2018-04-13T14:14:31-04:00

I would like to see the traditions reinstated. What’s happening now is r

Response by SSG Raul Lopez made Apr 13 at 2018 5:58 PM

2018-04-13T17:58:24-04:00

Formations are more than for promotions and accountability. Its for discipline, team work, attention to detail and above all that it is a proud tradition. I disagree, some things are meant to be there

Response by CSM David Draughn made Apr 13 at 2018 8:42 PM

2018-04-13T20:42:46-04:00

Formations, if nothing more than reinforcing tradition, unit pride and esprit de Corps most certainly reinforce what the US Army stands for. If one will refer back to “The Regulation for Drill and Diacipline of the Troops of the United States,” more commonly known as”The Blue Book” requires formations of troops. In days past. When written, drill formations were fighting formations, hence accountability of troops before and after battle was paramount. Today, we no longer march into battle with colors waving; however, we do not roll them up and leave them in a storage locker during deployment. Telephone calls, e-mails and text messages are the manner a weak, uncaring leader leads his troops impersonally, thus poorly.
Soldiers demand interface with their Sergeants. Soldiers will not attack the enemy based on an e-mail or text message order. Formations and close order drill training are more important in the contemporary than in any other time in history.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Apr 13 at 2018 9:15 PM

2018-04-13T21:15:36-04:00

SFC Randy Purham Archiac things not needed in the military? Certainly not the non-Pushups as depicted in your opening photograph.

Many Soldiers have learned the proper Pushup position from my personalized instruction.

Recently, watching Future Soldiers train at a local Recruitng Station; I was tempted, but did not ‘DROP’ and execute proper Pushups for them to observe!

Response by PO1 Charles Harpole made Apr 13 at 2018 9:32 PM

2018-04-13T21:32:00-04:00

Once you get rid of formations you may as well get rid of man overboard drills and GQ drills.

Response by PO2 William Bonczek made Apr 13 at 2018 9:50 PM

2018-04-13T21:50:19-04:00

Disagree need more drill for unit fortification of being a team.

Response by SSG Wade Lindwedel made Apr 13 at 2018 10:43 PM

2018-04-13T22:43:54-04:00

How can you utilize wall to wall counseling via text message?

Response by MSgt Frankh Barro made Apr 13 at 2018 10:59 PM

2018-04-13T22:59:08-04:00

Disagree, formation is not mainly used in today's military for accountability and passing information but as team work, leadership skills are the top 2 reasons I could think of.

Response by Sgt Robert Lorrison made Apr 13 at 2018 11:39 PM

2018-04-13T23:39:24-04:00

Riiiight... And while we’re at it, why not get rid of everything else that instills good order and discipline on the armed forces as well?

Response by Sgt Daniel J. Daly made Apr 13 at 2018 11:47 PM

2018-04-13T23:47:01-04:00

Let me tell you I’m my Marine Corps I’m not going to your house. You either report in or your UA.

Response by SGT Tj Casiano made Apr 13 at 2018 11:48 PM

2018-04-13T23:48:43-04:00

HAHA!

Response by SFC Doug Meadows made Apr 13 at 2018 11:59 PM

2018-04-13T23:59:13-04:00

When did recognizing Soldiers for promotions and awards become a "non-event"???? You lost all credibility at that point. Promotions and awards at a unit level are the most grass roots level of motivating the squad level. Wake up!!

Response by Sgt Randy Harrison made Apr 13 at 2018 11:59 PM

2018-04-13T23:59:48-04:00

The SrA who said saluting should be done away with - I think his pride in his uniform disappeared along with his common sense. Esprit de corps is very important - he probably disappears into the nearest building when the first note of Retreat sounds. Good luck with your being promoted to SSgt - with this attitude it doesn't look promising.

Response by MSG Tom Behan made Apr 14 at 2018 1:51 AM

2018-04-14T01:51:26-04:00

Formations are.neesed. d and c are needed. Excessive formations are not needed. Texting emailing and no formation is a lazy day syndrome. You practice in Garrison so when technology is crap and doesn't exist you are able to have accountability of everyone. War is hell and you always need to know where your soldiers Are at.

Response by PO3 Thomas Prentice made Apr 14 at 2018 2:08 AM

2018-04-14T02:08:55-04:00

Formations help to build a "unit" mentality. In formation you all work and function as one. Its the first stage of building an effective fighting team.
Alot of military traditions are not there to be bothersome. They are observed to build respect. Respect for those before you, with you and to follow. Honoring these traditions build honor in yourself.

Response by Cpl Dave McNally made Apr 14 at 2018 4:07 AM

2018-04-14T04:07:43-04:00

Snowflakes can even ruin our military. Fuckin pussy, bitches.

Response by SPC Daniel Rankin made Apr 14 at 2018 4:46 AM

2018-04-14T04:46:07-04:00

formations teach organisation and readiness it is not always about inspections. be prepared and ready bto go check youyr buddy to see if they are all togrther and then you have not an individual but one group that works as a single unit

Response by PO1 Riley Greenwood made Apr 14 at 2018 5:49 AM

2018-04-14T05:49:49-04:00

Ah, the fond memories of Quarters on the pier after a great liberty port, trying to focus through the hangover and having the Captain say “gather in close boys” and then learning you will be delayed getting home because of a “Mission”

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2018 7:04 AM

2018-04-14T07:04:48-04:00

Jeez. The military has already gotten to a point where you can't smoke someone without them going to EO or complaining about it until they get their way. Society needs to realize this isn't a social experiment. Personally I think the military needs to roll itself back a decade or two when respect was still a thing. No formations or salutes? That's stupid, the point of those is disseminating information in an orderly and efficient method and maintaining an understanding of hierarchy.

Response by CPL Ray Eanes made Apr 14 at 2018 7:35 AM

2018-04-14T07:35:03-04:00

Sounds like progress in the wrong direction... the old ways to maintain discipline have proven to be the best!

Response by SGT Brian Lorkowski made Apr 14 at 2018 8:53 AM

2018-04-14T08:53:46-04:00

We need to crack down and start enforcing the old standards. Those old standards are what made good soldiers, keeping soldiers aware and on their toes. And created a personal discipline in order to keep you alive in a combat environment. I've seen and heard of training not being as hard as it used to be. Bottom line, stop changing the military standards, it will eventually have repercussions.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2018 9:02 AM

2018-04-14T09:02:13-04:00

Have the officer / enlisted corps structure that we have had for hundreds of years. I'm not saying I have a great alternative, because I don't.......BUT.......socially and educationally it is archaic and needs changing.

Response by Sgt Robert Ace made Apr 14 at 2018 11:31 AM

2018-04-14T11:31:22-04:00

Amen brother!

Response by SSG Ronald Taylor made Apr 14 at 2018 11:48 AM

2018-04-14T11:48:21-04:00

You salute officers no matter what our armed forces need to be old school to many sissies and punks tryin to water us down!

Response by SSG Ronald Taylor made Apr 14 at 2018 11:50 AM

2018-04-14T11:50:03-04:00

SFC Randy Purham you’re a f-cling idiot

Response by PO2 Richard Rodriquez made Apr 14 at 2018 1:18 PM

2018-04-14T13:18:23-04:00

Your childish stupidity is amusing. Other eating up your precious time to admire your ovaries, formation serves many valid purposes still. The least of those is to instill a sense of group unity, of family with those many be called to sacrifice with and for. Now if that fails to show value then you are wasting oxygen as you have nothing to offer our community

Response by LTC Joseph Bost made Apr 14 at 2018 2:19 PM

2018-04-14T14:19:42-04:00

Are you, were you active duty?.......as a former 3 x commander, i can’t agree with you. How about safety briefs for one, general information dissemation, leader to personnel in his unit. Have you ever been on a team? ..........Coaches call in their entire team when critical information needs to be disseminated, not only does it facilitate management, but if questions are asked.......all personnel can hear the question and response. Not only that but the Army is a team, teamwork is key and having your entire team together as necessary develops a team ethos. If you have 40-50, 120-150 personnel in a unit and you need to get important or critical information out......formation is the best way to do this. Can you imaging taking 15 minutes to discuss safety x 150 times versus once?
Ever notice how airlines wait till everyone is on board and seated before they give the safety brief.......instead of 3 minutes x 300 passengers. Additionally, leaders get to see their personnel at one particular time and place.......rather than tracking down 150-300 personnel at their homes, even at their dispersed areas of work could be spread out over a wide range of distances. I think it is a good and efficient means to keep leaders and personnel on the same page and apprised of each other......as long as its not overused or used as some form of punishment.

Response by SPC Korey Kilburn made Apr 14 at 2018 3:12 PM

2018-04-14T15:12:38-04:00

Even the Boy Scouts still have formations.

Response by Pvt Mike Calhoun made Apr 14 at 2018 4:45 PM

2018-04-14T16:45:16-04:00

Keep them all!!! I don't understand why you would want to get rid of tradition!!!!

Response by SPC Kyle De Wolf made Apr 14 at 2018 6:54 PM

2018-04-14T18:54:11-04:00

The hierarchy, the authoritarianism, the culture of conformity, the restrictions on medicinal herbs.... We don’t really win wars and we shouldn’t even be going to war without the consent of the whole people. The stigma on mental healthcare or even just going to sick call.

Response by CPT Adam Ragsdale made Apr 14 at 2018 7:17 PM

2018-04-14T19:17:09-04:00

So said the bitter soldier. We have structured formations for a well tested reason.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2018 7:20 PM

2018-04-14T19:20:18-04:00

Your generation puts far to much faith in technology. The reality is that it may not always be there. As a Military, we should be operating as much as possible with out it. That way when it is not there, we can still function. Sorry young SSG, but you are wrong.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2018 7:51 PM

2018-04-14T19:51:23-04:00

No formations? Why not do away with uniforms also? These traditions are the fabric of our Army that binds us to past and future brothers and sisters in arms.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2018 7:52 PM

2018-04-14T19:52:22-04:00

Mmm. Did they not read the fine print before they raised their hand. Or maybe they slept through that part on the why’s during basic training. Sorry if you want to be coddled but you should have stayed home with mommy if that’s how you feel.

Response by SGT Charles Teer made Apr 14 at 2018 8:43 PM

2018-04-14T20:43:24-04:00

I’ve always said the basics need to stay. Can’t read a map GPS is no good. can’t shoot all the optics in the world want help.

Response by SCPO William Entrekin made Apr 14 at 2018 10:33 PM

2018-04-14T22:33:52-04:00

Must be a millennial.

Response by SPC Joe Fusco made Apr 14 at 2018 10:49 PM

2018-04-14T22:49:36-04:00

Hey you are all soldiers, you volunteered to be in the military so stop whining and sick it up

Response by Col Gordon Johnson made Apr 14 at 2018 11:10 PM

2018-04-14T23:10:01-04:00

Hmmmm. Does that"boot" think he's saluting a vehicle???? Perhaps he needs to be educated!!??

Response by GySgt Michael Whaley made Apr 14 at 2018 11:25 PM

2018-04-14T23:25:53-04:00

Nothing can replace formations and face to face, it’s not just for accountability but also well being. In today’s military loosing 22 a day is too much.

Response by SFC Sarge Richard Cohan made Apr 14 at 2018 11:41 PM

2018-04-14T23:41:33-04:00

To current youth in the military that have no knowledge of history or of tradition or pride of service and believe that technology is the be all end all. Have to be trained in the purpose of what the military does, fight wars!!! Formations D&C land nav. Teach discipline, coordination what to do when technology fails as it does quite often you must have the basics or technology will let you down when you need it
Most!!!

Response by SGT Donald Ridley made Apr 15 at 2018 8:16 AM

2018-04-15T08:16:48-04:00

I have been out of the Army for a little over 20 years. I can say, however, that formations are not outdated or pointless. They go much deeper than that. Unit cohesion, esprit de corps, comradery are a few words I can think of to describe it. I used to love marching in formation when an NCO starting singing an amazing cadence. It’s not just about accountability and passing out information. Just my 2 cents.

Response by CW3 Robert Haffly made Apr 15 at 2018 10:10 AM

2018-04-15T10:10:25-04:00

Drill and ceremony instill order and discipline in an otherwise unruly mob. However, one thing I hated about D&C was parades. I absolutely hated practicing for them and participating in them.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2018 10:42 AM

2018-04-15T10:42:32-04:00

“All hands to quarters, for muster, instruction, and inspection.”
These words have been passed on Naval vessels for centuries and is embedded in Navy tradition. Army and Marine formations hold the same purpose; it gives the leadership in your department/division/unit/platoon/squad, to get eyes on your personnel, pass required information, conducting needed training for everyone at one time, and conduct uniform inspections. Technology will never replace that! Yes some duty assignments (like Walter Reed Hospital) are more challenging to accomplish that due to the nature the job, however, as leaders we have an enate responsibility to ensure our junior members are well informed, trained, and present to good military appearance. No better way to do that than morning formations/quarters. Regardless of how many civilians work for the government, the Uniformed Services of this country do things for a reason, and has been the bead rock of our core for over 200 years and has aided us in becoming the strongest military in the world.

Response by Cpl Edward Barber made Apr 15 at 2018 11:12 AM

2018-04-15T11:12:50-04:00

The whole purpose of drill and close order formations is to instill discipline and respect with in the unit. The unit that trains together forms a bond and respect and a brotherhood. Take away formations you take away the fundamentals of a highly organized and disciplined fighting force and we would then turn into a second rate military. The rules are clear conform or don't join.

Response by CPL Sharmin Anderson made Apr 15 at 2018 12:36 PM

2018-04-15T12:36:21-04:00

People need to be taught the basics. What if there was no cell towers or gps possible. They need to know how to survive. I have talked to young men and women about when I was in. They said it is so much easier now. They need strict discipline. We are not civilians getting our own way. This is the military that has been working for over two years. We can't coddle people. That is what makes people weak.

Response by SGM(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2018 1:58 PM

2018-04-15T13:58:27-04:00

It was put to me very simply as a young troop.
I still say it to my troops today.
So, for the tide pod eating, condom snorters...
It goes like this:
"You joined the Army to change you,
You didn't join to change the Army."
There are so many traditions that would make our nation and country better if we'd practice them.
Don't try and modernize and change my Army. A lot of what we've already changed has done nothing but degrade the Army and weaken our soldiers.
I'm not talking about our lethality or technology, but the soldierly attitude, and conduct of or soldiers these days is deplorable. It hurts my heart to know this institution is now considered an inconvenience to it's soldiers. WTAF?! It's the Army, it's not meant to convenience you! It asks and demands of you, and you rise to the challenge. In the process you discover something more about yourself and your ability to endure. You gain confidence, develop abilities, learn skills, build teams and make life long connections.
Grow up, soldier up, or get the hell out! After all, it is an all voluntary force.

Response by Sgt Jason Tippett made Apr 15 at 2018 2:06 PM

2018-04-15T14:06:45-04:00

You must be a Fucking P.O.G to come up with some dumb shot lime that formations are essential to the military go back to your desk and stare at facebook on your computer some more let the adults do the real military thing now ummmm kaaayyy

Response by Sgt Jason Tippett made Apr 15 at 2018 2:19 PM

2018-04-15T14:19:28-04:00

You must be a P.O.G to come up with some dumb shit like that. Formations are essential to the military, the fact that your a SSGT and you don't know that also screams your a Fucking P.O.G. So why don't you go back to your computer and post some more dumbshit on Facebook and let the adults do the real miltary thing ummmm kaaayyy

Response by SGT Duane Huggins made Apr 15 at 2018 2:28 PM

2018-04-15T14:28:21-04:00

First off I would love to know how you became a senior leader. All of the things you are wanting to get rid of help to instill and maintain discipline. Which in my opinion has dropped when the Army went to the wash and wear uniforms. Soldiers no longer take pride in themselves or how they look.

Response by PFC Jack Jones made Apr 15 at 2018 2:46 PM

2018-04-15T14:46:21-04:00

I avree with the aforementioned reply. We need to take a step back in time and regroup. Technology, in many ways, is a serious hinderence on the ability to think outside the box.

Response by SrA Leonard Barnett made Apr 15 at 2018 4:43 PM

2018-04-15T16:43:50-04:00

Formations take a long damn time. If the battalion commander wants a formation at 0800, the Sgt. Major wants us out there at 0730, the company commander wants us out there at 0700, the platoon commander wants us out there at 0630, the platoon Sgt wants us out there at 0600, the squad leader wants us out there at 0430, and the fire team leader wants us out there at 0400. Used to spend half my day in formations. And that was just the first one of the day, usually with two more to follow!

Response by SSgt Jeff McLean made Apr 15 at 2018 4:58 PM

2018-04-15T16:58:03-04:00

Formations are like the all hands staff meetings of the business world. Going away from face-to-face information passing is the wrong direction. Just look at how kids interact today. They don’t know how to interact with people.

Response by PFC Aaron Cox made Apr 15 at 2018 5:38 PM

2018-04-15T17:38:44-04:00

Traditions and basics give us a foundation to build on. Good solid foundation equals good building. Bad or no foundation. No building.

Response by CSM Michael Sweeney made Apr 15 at 2018 6:44 PM

2018-04-15T18:44:10-04:00

I've been retired now for nearly 20 years and so much new technology has appeared during that time. I have wondered how it has changed things. I am reading the comments out of curiosity. I am also respectful of the opinions of those currently serving.

Response by MSgt Ray Cadena made Apr 15 at 2018 7:19 PM

2018-04-15T19:19:29-04:00

I'm old Corps.

Response by SCPO Randy Breidel made Apr 15 at 2018 7:39 PM

2018-04-15T19:39:20-04:00

Maybe we should just Tweet instructions to the troops...God knows that is never misunderstood, staying retired

Response by 1SG Mark Mead made Apr 15 at 2018 8:05 PM

2018-04-15T20:05:14-04:00

The basic fundamentals will always prepare a soldier for the worst.

Response by SGM James Threadgill made Apr 15 at 2018 8:40 PM

2018-04-15T20:40:26-04:00

Formations are the best for information passing

Response by HA Jace Gallagher made Apr 15 at 2018 9:53 PM

2018-04-15T21:53:30-04:00

Military traditions instill both knowledge and discipline. Many of the people I served with would never survive a battle because they were too busy whining about stuff like this instead of training to better themselves. There is a reason for everything in the military. Embrace the suck and move on.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2018 10:00 PM

2018-04-15T22:00:35-04:00

Not allowing facial hair in garrison and not allowing males to have long hair. We allow females into all MOS’s, we give profiles to those who claim to get razor bumps or religious exemption to shaving. If we’re all supposed to be equal then grooming standards, fitness standards, and every other standard should be equal as well.

Response by SPC Jeff Smith made Apr 15 at 2018 10:13 PM

2018-04-15T22:13:41-04:00

Bullys in NCO positions. Discipline is important, and sometimes it is neccessary to be harsh, but too many junior NCOs are cruel to their soldiers simply to be cruel, in part because that is how they were "led" earlier in their careers. Senior NCOs generally have this out of their system. It's past time to teach the junior NCOs that respect goes both ways.

Response by MAJ Lee Goehl made Apr 15 at 2018 10:18 PM

2018-04-15T22:18:50-04:00

Having come up through the ranks I can and will tell you there are reasons we do D&C and all the other formations. Sorry if that means you have to put you video game down a little earlier so you can make formation but it is important to have accountability and accountability. If your on the college scholarship plan maybe you can see it but those of us who spent a career putting our lives in anothers hands understand all too well.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2018 12:15 AM

2018-04-16T00:15:46-04:00

Baaaahhhhh. Blllleeeee. Whatever mindless sheep sound like.

Response by Lt Col David Nadeau made Apr 16 at 2018 1:12 AM

2018-04-16T01:12:15-04:00

Dog and pony shows for CODEL visits

Response by SSG Eldon Eldred made Apr 16 at 2018 1:30 AM

2018-04-16T01:30:03-04:00

Well lets rewind. Oh about 45 yrs ago. The Army was transitioning from the draft into a full volunteer Army. One of the things cut was PT, every soldier was responsible to maintain their own physical fitness and pass their PT test. The unit only had two formations, 0800 work call and 1700 release for the day. All was good, until soldiers would drag butt to morning work call, came late back from lunch, but sure would be at the end of day formation. This didn't last to long, PT started back up, three formations a day, and marching to every place we went. Esprit de Corps was back, soldiers were soldiers again, they were proud to let everyone know who they were. What happened, traditions came back and it was effective means of bringing units together as one.

Response by SPC Steve Lythgoe made Apr 16 at 2018 3:07 AM

2018-04-16T03:07:02-04:00

Mist if my military was spent on a vine marrow transplant/oncology ward so I do not want to enter into the argument of outdated military traditions. I think it was Churchill who commented on an argument about naval traditions with a retort "like keelhauling sodomy and the lash..."

Response by SSgt Stephen Berry made Apr 16 at 2018 5:44 AM

2018-04-16T05:44:48-04:00

Don’t like it, then don’t sign. The military needs to go backwards with regards to military discipline. If you want a laxed environment, seek other employment.

Response by Sgt George Kovach made Apr 16 at 2018 2:38 PM

2018-04-16T14:38:04-04:00

Not sure getting rid of formations is a good thing. For starters formations gather the unit in one location for the most part, reinforcing the unit bond and it actually does allow for direct information dispersal. Remember your on uncle sams clock not your own. 2 cents

Response by SSG Charles Duke made Apr 16 at 2018 4:10 PM

2018-04-16T16:10:29-04:00

How did you make it to SFC with a pvt mentality?

Response by SGT Kevin McCourt made Apr 16 at 2018 5:01 PM

2018-04-16T17:01:32-04:00

The military has already changed too much for a lot of us to stomach. Now you want to change it more... When will it end. Technology is great. But, it is spoiling a lot of you. Everyone thinks the next war will be high tech. How effective will you be if the next war if it goes nuclear? You'll be lucky to find a landline that works. Low tech will never be replaced in full. As far as formations. Accountability is key. That will never go away.

Response by SPC William Smith made Apr 16 at 2018 5:54 PM

2018-04-16T17:54:51-04:00

You must have a disciplined military. Don't join up if you don't want to learn how to be disciplined. It could save your life.

Response by PO1 Dan Beals made Apr 16 at 2018 6:10 PM

2018-04-16T18:10:27-04:00

I think morning formation is important I used to have surprise inspections as well as give out information for the day and answer questions anyone had. There are other uses as well

Response by SGT Aric Lier made Apr 16 at 2018 6:21 PM

2018-04-16T18:21:23-04:00

there are a lot of forgotten traditions.... ie battalion Pt runs if you were slacking id run up steal your guidon out of your hands..... I d run laps around your company formation in mockery and if you wanted it back your whole damn company had to fight for it. land nav? if you can't do it without electronics you are going to lose. everyone should know 6/8 and leaders should have them practicing 12. marching is more than D&C if you can't march or dont understand why its done ,talk to an E8 or above if you are an E8 and dont know retire now.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2018 7:07 PM

2018-04-16T19:07:01-04:00

There we go with the millenniums, trying to burn everything on the pad, just remember these generations are descendent of those punks from the 80s who did not face any real world danger, enough saying

Response by SSG Chris Morrison made Apr 16 at 2018 7:16 PM

2018-04-16T19:16:44-04:00

I retired from the army and now work for a Fortune 500 company and all I can say is "wow". Everything is done much more efficiently from putting in for time off, random drug screens, exc. looking back now I think why did we do that? Oh yeah because "it's the way it's always been done". Then sprinkle in some snarky comments from SGT's about smart phones. As they complain from a smart phone.

Response by SSG Chris Morrison made Apr 16 at 2018 7:23 PM

2018-04-16T19:23:23-04:00

I once heard an officer say the army didn't need NCO's above the rank of SFC.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2018 7:25 PM

2018-04-16T19:25:49-04:00

If you don't want to participate in traditions that have been around for over two hundred years then don't join the military. Keep all the traditions they are there for a reason. It's to remember the past generation and what they did for us. So guit your bitching and suck it up

Response by LCpl Michael Sunderland made Apr 16 at 2018 7:37 PM

2018-04-16T19:37:25-04:00

technology has made people lazy in my opinion. One day when the EMP goes off, let me know how your technologies work then...Ooooorah...RIP Gunny

Response by SFC Jerry Sodan made Apr 16 at 2018 10:46 PM

2018-04-16T22:46:21-04:00

Sorry you are so wrong. If you dont like formations you should get out SSG. The Army and the Marine Corps are not jobs. No idea what your MOS is, clearly not Combat Arms

Response by SGT Terry Lang made Apr 16 at 2018 11:34 PM

2018-04-16T23:34:54-04:00

Formations are more than a head count. Morning formation may be the only time a Platoon Leader / Platoon Sergeant may see the Soldiers under they're charge all day. A lot of information about Soldiers can be handled in morning formation. Are they squared away? Grooming standards up to par? Do they look sick? Are they sober? Way more can be handled looking into a Soldiers eyes than sending a text..

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2018 11:57 PM

2018-04-16T23:57:46-04:00

Let’s look at the other side though. I’ve seen leaders use formations as an excuse to keep soldiers late because they didn’t double check or plan for “the list”. We all know what “the list” is. I had a Brigade Commander in 1CD that had a window that overlooked our company area. If he saw us there at 1705, you’d see him booking it over to Battalion, then you’d see our BC book it over to Company, then we’d be heading home while the NCOs and the PL’s finished up. We had a lot fewer late days and mismanaged time after a few days of that.

Response by LCpl Steve Camp made Apr 17 at 2018 12:17 AM

2018-04-17T00:17:54-04:00

Traditio s exists for a reason. It separates the military from non military. It promotes espre de CORPS. I say change nothing.

Response by SPC Jason Hamilton made Apr 17 at 2018 12:43 AM

2018-04-17T00:43:41-04:00

The units described that don't do formation, roll call, etc al, those were the units that had to get whipped into shape while NG did the heavy lifting in Iraq. Sorry, they should reemphasize all these things and perhaps the Army would be combat ready at the beginning of the next war.

Response by SP5 Jim Bruce made Apr 17 at 2018 8:33 AM

2018-04-17T08:33:18-04:00

Being from the what I call the old Army I think traditions are very important. Formations seem to be a point here.
Being a medical person and a medic in the Army formations were quite important. We had a formation if you want to call it Called "Report" the medical people going off duty would report to the oncoming duty people. Same with any MOS everyone needs to know what is going on.
Many of the things I learned in the Military I still use today and it has been 30 plus years since I was on active duty.

Response by MSgt Ben Bunting made Apr 17 at 2018 8:37 AM

2018-04-17T08:37:48-04:00

Our military has had enough changes recently. let's maintain our military methods. customs and courtesies that have made out country's military the best in the world.

Response by LCpl Jeff Moore made Apr 17 at 2018 10:00 AM

2018-04-17T10:00:14-04:00

formations are also a time for leader to observe their troops, sailors and Marines. something you can do over facetime and text messages

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 10:36 AM

2018-04-17T10:36:53-04:00

Just as D&C speak to Tradition, Formation Assembly speak to RESPECT. I hear these youngsters talk of calling their superior on the cell phone, or worse sending a text message. I recall a time when Jr Enlisted would Not dare to enter a casual relationship with an NCO. "Hey, Jim. Did ya catch the game last night? Whats on to do list for the day?" WTF kinda crap is that. There is a couple reason you address them by Rank and Last Name; 1- RESPECT, They've earned it. 2- It eliminates bias and favortism, you're all equally worthless. 3- When you earn your rank, you will understand. Frigging self-entitled millennials. SMDH.

Response by CPL Neil Hollis made Apr 17 at 2018 12:42 PM

2018-04-17T12:42:13-04:00

The military is all about tradition. Those traditions and experiences past down from generations save lives.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 4:45 PM

2018-04-17T16:45:01-04:00

Formations are a part of discipline...

Response by SSG Jeffery Payne made Apr 17 at 2018 6:07 PM

2018-04-17T18:07:35-04:00

Technology can go down anytime. We all need the skills to perform our tasks. Formation is a must, we do head count at formation, rules are rules, I want to tell the information once, not 40 different times

Response by SGT John C. made Apr 17 at 2018 8:15 PM

2018-04-17T20:15:44-04:00

What it boils down to SFC Purham is basic accountability. We've all had that one troop who will hide, trust me I still do in my ARNG unit, whenever they get the chance. Try calling them and they'll ignore the phone and then there is the infamous I never got your text. I could go on but I agree with SFC Zach K and say that we need to return to the basics and instill the discipline that was drilled into me at the Ft Benning Home for Wayward Boys Harmony Church Campus. Thankfully the Army is beginning to realize they f*cked up and are bringing back some of these to Basic/AIT. Kids today get participation trophies but that mentality downrange can get them killed.

Response by MSG Moises Maldonado made Apr 17 at 2018 8:49 PM

2018-04-17T20:49:57-04:00

SFC R. Purham I'll bet, is a Product of the Soldiers of the Late 90's even of the 2000's early.. A time Frame Where The Service Corps were Diminishing in Traditions. Chances Are He is one of the Many Recalcitrant and Undisciplined Soldiers of the time... But Granted that Nowadays everyone Gets Promoted Just for Being.. Not Necessarily for Merits.... Trust me.. When I retired (1991) there were E-7 that Could Not March a Platoon Around the BN Area.. Without Stumbling... I even got to Observe a 1SG Cutting Grass, Because "SHE" Didn't have the Spine/fortitude to get someone to Do it..... Soldiers nowadays are So Weak on Military Traditions,,, I must Say they are Still the Best In the World, But are or have been Pampered So Much in Life that Are a Bunch of Whiners... Military Traditions are Part of a Service Men/Women.. And should Not be Eliminated Just B'cause they seem Trivial... Get on With it... March Along... Be Proud.....

Response by SGT Luke Leatherman made Apr 17 at 2018 9:21 PM

2018-04-17T21:21:22-04:00

Man these kids are getting whiny

Response by FN Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 9:31 PM

2018-04-17T21:31:51-04:00

I’m a boot so I know but so much but going through boot camp I wish they brought back some of the things they did back in the day. Such as having a rifle with you at all times and teaching you things more in depth than just doing stupid lectures. Also here at A school a lot of the learning is done via computer (CBT). I’m sorry but as an engineer I’m pretty sure we’d learn 1000x better when we’re hands on learning the equipment. But since some dirtbags got themselves injured for not following instructions, they’ve shut down all forms of hands on learning just about. I understand technological advances and appreciate their existence but there are some things that a computer can’t teach as well as human interaction. Also, on a side note I think weekly uniform inspections on deployment are ridiculous (Heard rumors about them).

Response by SSG Jim Strickland made Apr 17 at 2018 10:22 PM

2018-04-17T22:22:51-04:00

Stay as is!!!

Response by MSgt Thomas Welch made Apr 18 at 2018 2:20 AM

2018-04-18T02:20:49-04:00

I will not beat the bush. you are full of it. if you can't cut formations be what you are a candy ass and quit

Response by PV2 Wayne Grinnell made Apr 18 at 2018 3:10 AM

2018-04-18T03:10:27-04:00

The Factor Your not thinking of is that Kids nowadays aren't Disciplined enough to be adults. They mostly dont get it at Home and need the DI's to teach them how to be an Adult. Formations, Drill Doing PT and Confidence Courses and Calling everybody Green all give them lessons on how to be an Adult. Who they can rely on and introduces them to what Brotherhood means. This was something I learned when I went to basic.
Traditions also gives them a background and history to the Branch they are serving under. If You didnt have a tradition to follow You would just be a Rootless wandering soldier without being able to look back over your shoulder and see those who came before You. Knowing why You do what You are doing and why its Right.
I admire the Marines for Holding on to their Traditions and Having a History....It gives them Pride in Knowing where they came from and Who They Are.

Response by PO3 G S made Apr 18 at 2018 3:44 AM

2018-04-18T03:44:41-04:00

All that took the oath made that extra step to serve our country, just a small percentage of the population did that. The majority of us knew what we were getting into and what could possibly happen, for me it was aboard a ship and later a Riverine unit in the Mekong Delta. We learned some traditions in boot camp and more after. Traditions are our life force, without them we could possibly fail. I know that some old outdated traditions are history, but many are not. I was last active duty 47 years ago. Our youngest son is a 23 year old First Class (E-6) Master at Arms in the Navy. He served two years in the Persian Gulf with a coastal Riverine unit and is now on a nuclear aircraft carrier homeported at Norfolk, VA. He has told me many times that several of the traditions during my time in the navy are now still in place. Traditions are our backbone. I'm a retired Oklahoma state trooper (2005). My father was a combat medic with the 45th infantry division during WWII. He also retired from the highway patrol. Tradition is highly emphasized during the highway patrol academy. The patrol is much more state of the art than during my fathers time, but the majority of Oklahoma troopers are very proud of the traditions that have been carried on since the patrol was organized in 1937. Formations, musters, tradition, it's all part of it, military and the patrol.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 18 at 2018 8:35 AM

2018-04-18T08:35:52-04:00

So you are saying accountability is not important- assigning last minute details or info is not important? You really think that you can text a E1-E3 and expect it to happen? I don't not what world you are living in there Randy, but I would be freaking out. Seems like if you text you are out running already at 0600 I should believe you are doing your on PT and not still in bed? I made damn sure all my troops in the billets were in formation, and those off-post got a screaming phone call after formation. In my units there were/are times when we did D&C- just because the Division has a division wide parade annually, or perhaps the 1SG/CSM got ticked off with sloppy marching.

Response by Sgt Dennis Hamson made Apr 18 at 2018 9:46 AM

2018-04-18T09:46:31-04:00

If you dont like formations , standing in line, waiting forever to do something, saluting a superior officer, being held accountable for being ready to go at any time, being on time. Then don't join the military. Change happens , Marines overcome and adapt so we come out on top. Every Marine is a rifleman and cannot graduate boot camp until they qualify. The first job of a Marine is rifleman your secondary job is your MOS.
We are all 0311s first.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2018 10:00 AM

2018-04-18T10:00:19-04:00

Don't fix what ain't broke....

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 18 at 2018 10:13 AM

2018-04-18T10:13:54-04:00

I don't want to write an essay here but formations are not just traditional but it's functional. We're just not the military; I want to see my service members at least at the beginning of the day or shift. I won't see everyone due to appointments, personal times, special tasks and missions, etc. and that's fine. Maybe we're do some physical training and if I use it to build up team up more than accessing their physical agility that's okay. Formations should stay because that's how they punch in at the clock. We don't always have a formation at the end of the day but I or another key leader will see my service members face to face so I know they have been released from work and they are going home.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Apr 18 at 2018 11:01 AM

2018-04-18T11:01:01-04:00

"Formation" carries over into the civilian world. Meetings to regurgitate what was said at other meetings. I had a senior management person say this about meetings "1: Only used for NEW information so the boss can see the reactions. Updates are done by email. 2: If you can't put out the information in 10 minutes, review the information until it is 10 minutes or less. Otherwise you are wasting everyones' time 3: Meetings start on time. Even if the person who called the meeting isn't there. It is about respect."

The military could learn from that. Admiral's Call is a waste of time especially for us older farts who don't want to stand around while you blather on about where you have been this last quarter and who you have met with. Nobody except brown nosers care. We barely want to see awards given out. Unless they are ours and they involve money.

Keep the meetings/formations/all hands short and sweet and to the point.

Oh and to THAT person who just HAS to ask a question ...... yeh. Special place in hell for you.

Response by SSG Shawn Kramer made Apr 18 at 2018 11:42 AM

2018-04-18T11:42:35-04:00

Soldiers today are not the same, some of them feel that there shouldn't be all the Traditions that we have and what we've had. Personally I find it disgusting that someone would even think about getting away from what we are Who We Are. Sometimes we need to go back to Old School like a little wall-to-wall counseling. Maybe then some of these snowflakes would get the idea. The Army has to be tough and has to have standards if we don't have standards that takes away from what we are

Response by GySgt David Gustavson made Apr 18 at 2018 12:04 PM

2018-04-18T12:04:07-04:00

That a SFC would even consider this is astounding. I may just be an old Marine, but at formation word is passed and each formation is an impromptu inspection. Not just for those in the ranks but for those in charge. Set the damned example, that is the point. That cannot be done by e-mail of text. Formations needn't be long, and even though I myself hated them they have a purpose. Much like requiring the response of "Yes , Sergeant," it works both ways. Not only is that to show who is in charge, it is also to remind the senior who has the responsibility (not just authority).

Response by CPL Jim Wiens made Apr 18 at 2018 1:40 PM

2018-04-18T13:40:14-04:00

I got out in 1986 how do they teach land nav now

Response by PFC Henry Pauke made Apr 18 at 2018 1:43 PM

2018-04-18T13:43:50-04:00

No formations, what's next casual Friday? The time honored traditions,in light of technology advancement, is what makes the Military great. Don't like going to formations then get a Civilian job. Seems like POG rules are making service in Military no more Honorable than selling used cars.

Response by SSgt Nicholas Merchant made Apr 18 at 2018 5:20 PM

2018-04-18T17:20:18-04:00

So the military thrives on core values discipline and attention to detail. Daily these integral parts of the military are tested. Formations are exactly that another way the military reminds us of the bigger picture. Discipline of mind, body and spirit, attention to detail prooves discipline, you see both easily in formation. You cant get rid of these as they are not about tradition its about mission readiness and focus on the dsily job ahead.

Response by Sgt William Margeson made Apr 18 at 2018 5:39 PM

2018-04-18T17:39:06-04:00

This was probably written by a non war fighter. Two thirds of the military are in place, to support the one third, that are war fighters. Land navigation has a place today, just as much relying on GPS, if not more so. GPS can be disabled, electronically or destruction of the satellites. If you are in the sand box, an GPS goes down, how will soldiers navigate, from point A thru D.??
The Navy uses GPS. However they have a reduntecy built into the system. Paper charts. When in the sand box, if you lose GPS, and don't know where you are, you probably will not go home.

Response by Cpl James Rowlands made Apr 18 at 2018 6:03 PM

2018-04-18T18:03:28-04:00

I get what hes saying. Hes not talking about getting rid of all formations, just unnecessary ones, if no word is being passed its not needed as frequently, in the Marines in oki, we had a morning formation before our morning formation, a battalion formation before chow, a battallion formation after chow, and a batallion formation at the end of the day, and on field days another battalion at the bricks. All that isnt needed, you could do a plt formation for half of those things and pass word up

Response by GySgt Wayne Neff made Apr 18 at 2018 6:05 PM

2018-04-18T18:05:30-04:00

We need to go back a number of years and start teaching respect and leadership and and professionalism teach them how and when to sulute

Response by SFC Charlie Broadus II made Apr 18 at 2018 6:06 PM

2018-04-18T18:06:43-04:00

I think traditions should be standard and upheld today's solders are too soft and undisciplined enough as it is

Response by Cpl Kent Mitchell made Apr 18 at 2018 7:04 PM

2018-04-18T19:04:46-04:00

My Marine Corps thrives on history & tradition.

Response by SFC Christian Van Riper made Apr 18 at 2018 8:22 PM

2018-04-18T20:22:28-04:00

No. Keep it as it is and enforce the ones that are not being enforced. These things require attention to detail which enforces discipline in battle. Another reason to keep and enforce it it tradition, and if you do not know that the armed forces is all about tradition then you either never served or your drill instrictors failed you

Response by LT Steve Brant made Apr 18 at 2018 9:21 PM

2018-04-18T21:21:47-04:00

Keep the formations. That is the making of the military family. Text messages,
phone calls just don't cut it.

Response by PFC Tim Arnett made Apr 18 at 2018 11:54 PM

2018-04-18T23:54:52-04:00

One thing that was done twice a day while in formation that I cherished was doing a right face toward Division Artillery Headquarters and saluting during reveille and retreat. Is that an important enough reason for formation?

Response by MSgt Alejandro Hernandez (RETIRED) made Apr 19 at 2018 9:10 AM

2018-04-19T09:10:49-04:00

I’d say saluting staff vehicles needs to go. That officer probably gets enough salutes daily anyway. Plus it’s dangerous. We are taught to keep our hands 10 and 2 while driving. Heavens forbid some over zealous officer who needs thier salute doesn’t get one and looks back to teach the wrong doer about military customs and courtesies hits some kid/person in his moment of angst for not getting his/her salute. When you drive, you drive. Nothing else.

Response by PO1 Michael Hyland made Apr 19 at 2018 11:05 AM

2018-04-19T11:05:31-04:00

No formations bring discipline to start the day for one thing, the military is not a civilian job, order and responsibility are necessary, tired of people trying to bring the down what had worked

Response by SGT Joseph Miller made Apr 19 at 2018 3:30 PM

2018-04-19T15:30:38-04:00

I agree with 3 out of 4 but chaplains? This is the problem with non Christians and atheists, they believe their rights and non beliefs are more important than others and they think they know more than others what's good for them. Chaplains play a major role in units with guidance for service members and spiritual teaching and comforting for people of faith. I would pray that if I was a soldier dying for my country and being Roman catholic like I am that a chaplain was there to give me my last rites and these may not be your beliefs but no one is forcing you to utilize the chaplain if you don't want to and a chaplain may be a priest or rabbi or preacher but the reason they are called chaplains and not by their respective religions name is because they are non denonminational to other Faith's and will conduct their practices for a soldiers benefit and that's even including for atheists. This whole attack on religion in the military needs to stop, as long as it is not forced on service members then if you practice religion ,practice it and if you don't then don't, just stay in your f@#king lane and don't try to push your beliefs of non beliefs on others.

Response by CPO Jeff Branum made Apr 19 at 2018 3:32 PM

2018-04-19T15:32:36-04:00

Formations are a fundamental part of military structure. If you start chipping away at the basics then you will eventually cause core structural damage. The way the military does business will evolve with technology. However, certain things should not be tampered with.

Response by SP5 Lynn Circle made Apr 19 at 2018 5:53 PM

2018-04-19T17:53:50-04:00

My own military experience is now so archaic that I am incapable of answering the question!

Response by SSG Robert Rusiecki made Apr 19 at 2018 5:54 PM

2018-04-19T17:54:44-04:00

Formations may not be the most productive part of the day but it does instill reliability and is one of the basic orders that need to be followed daily. If you can’t follow a simple formation order how are you going to accomplish a large march order?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2018 6:45 PM

2018-04-19T18:45:52-04:00

Shaving

Response by SSG Kenny Gomillion made Apr 19 at 2018 7:01 PM

2018-04-19T19:01:31-04:00

Stupidity and waste we could do without, yet there's to much of it.

Response by 1SG Robert Vanhoose made Apr 19 at 2018 10:16 PM

2018-04-19T22:16:48-04:00

Sorry but nothing better then P to P communication in the service. Person go person. Emails and text need to go ASAP.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2018 10:58 PM

2018-04-19T22:58:01-04:00

As a support NCO, who has served in mostly Combat Arms units, I can say we definitely need formations. From my experinece in a BSB, the support (heavy technology/modern) units we need more customs and traditions to enforce discipline and repair the relaxed envirenoment some wish to create there. Just a simple sergeant’s opinion. Respect.

Response by SSG James Schmerber made Apr 20 at 2018 12:15 AM

2018-04-20T00:15:51-04:00

If people would look and see why the military does what it does then and only then will they start to understand as for as shooting jellybeans they were intended to wound not kill because it takes more people out of the fight

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2018 1:45 AM

2018-04-20T01:45:36-04:00

I wish the guidons were gone. They are not particularly useful and streamers.

In all honestly I wish they would dismantle the armed forces, create a single force with rank structure, funding, uniforms, and quit acting like it matters if you are 101st or any other unit. You weren't the one there on D-Day or any other event from those wars.

Response by SFC Joseph Morini made Apr 20 at 2018 8:18 AM

2018-04-20T08:18:25-04:00

When information is put out in formation there is no excuse for not getting it. Using a device allows for "Sergeant I never got the text".

Response by SSG Arlo Gleghorn Jr. made Apr 20 at 2018 9:07 AM

2018-04-20T09:07:43-04:00

Stress cards.....this was not around during my military career....however it's seems to me that this is here to stay....you as a soldier are going to experience stress at one point and time in your career while serving ....stress is a part of what you are doing in the first place when you decided to wear the uniform....

Response by PFC Dominick Lambino made Apr 20 at 2018 10:42 AM

2018-04-20T10:42:04-04:00

I say they need to bring back all the traditions and keep it that way or military is going soft and I don’t like it the traditions made our military stand out

Response by SSgt Ken Shefveland made Apr 20 at 2018 10:43 AM

2018-04-20T10:43:50-04:00

Tradition instills pride and discipline.

Response by CW5 Dennis Stewart made Apr 20 at 2018 10:38 PM

2018-04-20T22:38:53-04:00

Formations have a place and always will. Not saying dailey or anything like that but often enough to recognize folks and announce major assignments

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2018 10:48 PM

2018-04-20T22:48:20-04:00

No one really likes formations but theres so much miscommunication and having the opportunity to clarify really helps out

Response by LTC Paul Crum made Apr 21 at 2018 2:26 AM

2018-04-21T02:26:14-04:00

Give up Formations for no reason! 82nd ABN had a Formation on every Saturday when one of their men was drunk on Friday. He stood up invited himself to counseling. The entire unit showed up in formation to help a fellow soldier. All of the soldiers and officers were in the stand up formation. Formations muster the troops before a significant experience. Before a field trial, deployment or battle. The day to day, battle rhythm for a units training is up to their individual leaders. I have seen over my 26 years of service, more time wasted from our soldiers, away from their family more time wasted by leadership and more formations for no reason. The pre-formation experience is real for all soldiers. It adds nothing to the Leader's message.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2018 2:41 AM

2018-04-21T02:41:04-04:00

Formations and marching instill discipline. Land navigation form the basics in survival . Yes we need to go back to where are military was.

Response by MSgt David Loftin made Apr 21 at 2018 8:15 AM

2018-04-21T08:15:56-04:00

Take care to remember traditions bind present day warriors with those of days past. They can be used to enhance many things. They like the fore mentioned formations serve many purposes, such as the instilling and reinforcement of discipline. The confidence of command in NCO’s, and multiple other intangibles. We should be careful as to what we see as outdated and no longer viable. Disciple and instant obedience to orders is one of the core fundamentals, the foundations upon which victory is built. Harnessing today’s technology is a must however to turn away from our past and traditions is done at great peril.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2018 8:45 AM

2018-04-21T08:45:21-04:00

Keep it traditional. Keep it the way it used to be. If people can't handle it, well that's natural selection. IMO basic training is getting softer. The MTIs can't even say "what the piss" any more. I've also heard something about stress cards for the trainees now? Are you serious? It's turning Into a joke. I say we keep the so called "outdated traditions and old military styles, and if people can't deal with it, well then the military is not for them is it?

Response by SSgt Cary Anderson made Apr 21 at 2018 7:04 PM

2018-04-21T19:04:03-04:00

We need more Commander's Calls. I can't get enough.

Response by PO3 George McCullough made Apr 21 at 2018 7:44 PM

2018-04-21T19:44:30-04:00

Discipline is most important in the military. Without discipline, the machine loses! We are in a period of time where younger people are being raised without discipline, and if we are to have a functional fighting force, discipline needs to be enacted and made absolutely necessary in order to maintain a force that can win wars. Every tradition, including the salute, is part of that discipline, and needs to be enforced. No exceptions!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2018 8:42 AM

2018-04-22T08:42:51-04:00

The only reason anyone wants to dissolve face to face time with leadership is cowardice! These recent generations have become so non-confrontational, it makes me sick. How will you ever deal with a real threat if you can’t deal with your own people face to face. We as members of the military need to uphold these old traditions. We need to stop our military from being so progressive. Remember when Rome fell it was also during the time when the Soldiers tired of carrying all of their body armor. It was too heavy and the Army made the Soldiers the concession. They weakened as an institution and Rome fell.
We need to stop giving in to the whims of the weak. It will in turn make this country weaker than it already is. If you don’t believe me, go to a gym and watch today’s youth work out.

Response by PFC Clint Doss made Apr 22 at 2018 9:38 AM

2018-04-22T09:38:52-04:00

Drill and Ceremony are an integral part of Military discipline.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2018 12:22 PM

2018-04-22T12:22:47-04:00

Yeah let's just get rid of all discipline and standards too

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2018 1:45 PM

2018-04-22T13:45:53-04:00

I used to find it both sad and humorous that during "big" Cavalry ceremonies (Retirement, Change of Command) that a poor donkey was pulled along by a horse drawn wagon, with a crazy assed barking dog following. I appreciate the tradition it represents, but always questioned the necessity of the practice.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2018 3:29 PM

2018-04-22T15:29:34-04:00

Formations, manual of arms and all of the rest of D&C are the foundations of providing unity, uniformity and discipline in our units. I have recently seen and been extremely frustrated with "Joe's" not knowing any of these. That is one reason our military has fallen into the lackidaisical shape it presently finds itself. The basics are the basics for a very important reason. I, as an NCO, should not have to take the time to train my soldiers in material that was supposed to already be taught them. Are the D.I.'s not doing their jobs these days or have their jobs changed to only teaching the technical aspects of the MOS's?

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2018 8:44 PM

2018-04-22T20:44:16-04:00

I put my hands in my pocket
There I said it!

Response by PO1 Mike Meehan made Apr 22 at 2018 8:58 PM

2018-04-22T20:58:04-04:00

Formation, or Muster as we called it in the USN, is where peer accountability happens. It is where you see what kind of shipmates you are dealing with. Are they serious about their duties, show up on time in a clean, neat uniform, or do they show up disheveled at the last minute or even late. Do they pay attention to important information being put out, or space out and not stick with the daily plan?

Response by SP5 Gary Smith made Apr 22 at 2018 9:11 PM

2018-04-22T21:11:22-04:00

End the officer/enlisted dichotomy. Use the same ranks as the government. 0-whatever. Advancement by merit.

Response by MSgt Timothy Bridgham made Apr 23 at 2018 10:57 AM

2018-04-23T10:57:56-04:00

This article is typical of someone that has only a 10th of the knowledge of how a military works. Get a few more assignments, try a few Joint assignments, cross train and see other prospectives, then come back and let us know if you still feel the same.

Response by SCPO Rev. Dr. Thomas Peavy made Apr 23 at 2018 11:31 AM

2018-04-23T11:31:05-04:00

Quarters/Muster (Formation) aboard ship are necessary for accountability and safety. A Sailor not at Quarters or on Watch signals a missing person. At sea this has proven necessary to account for all personnel. At times the Navy Musters on Station (In the assigned working space) for safety or other reasons. In this case an accounting of personnel is done in the work spaces. Recently there was a Sailor who hid himself in an equipment area for several days while at sea. This resulted in a search and rescue effort since it was believed he cold have fallen overboard. Formations in a combat zone on land is a non-starter. The USN learned a lesson during Desert Shield/Storm when a SeaBee Commander on the beach held a formation and a mortar round was fired into the formation. There is a time an place for for much of what has and is done in the military. The foundation of the military is on its practices and traditions Technology does not replace that. Object Lesson, the recent collisions and loss of life when US Navy Destroyers were involved in at Sea collisions. All the technology on those ships did not replace the absence of Watch Standers, their eyes and verbal communication to the Officer of the Deck and the absence of Navigation skills based on Celestial Bench Marks.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2018 11:35 AM

2018-04-23T11:35:36-04:00

You think that formation is a useless tradition? Of all the useless things we do, you pick that one to try and make a point?
You know what is useless? Storyboards. Making soldiers stop and pose in the middle of training so that a random S-shop lieutenant can take a picture for on single slide that a Colonel will see one time, for fewer than five minutes. All the little photo opportunities that desk jockeys want to take, are entirely useless. They're also disruptive.

Response by LTC Chad Uhl made Apr 27 at 2018 3:22 PM

2018-04-27T15:22:39-04:00

Bring back BEARDS, MUTTON CHOPS, & HANDLEBAR MUSTACHES!

Response by Sgt James D. made Apr 30 at 2018 12:24 AM

2018-04-30T00:24:37-04:00

formations are for accountability~ AND dissemination of information but it also gives your leaders 1st sgt capt a chance to look you in the eye once a week! not to mention a place were your imitate supervisor can check you out before you go to work! IE are your eyes bloodshot from an over night drinking binge! or other things! having to call your house or go knock on your door to find out where you are is a big NO as an nco if I had to go to the barracks or call your house you better be so sick you need a ride to sick call or dead! you have a responsibility to be in formation at a specific time! it get you in the habit of being where you are supposed to be when you are supposed to be! comes in real handy when you are doing combat drills! or actual oh shit hit the fan!!!

Response by Sgt R Zan made May 1 at 2018 4:16 PM

2018-05-01T16:16:51-04:00

Shaving *every day*.

It wasn't a deal-breaker per se; but when I considered the pros & cons of re-enlistment, it was the very first item on the whole list ... the 'pro' list never caught up.

My Norelco pocket shaver always got a tight seal on both the M17 & M40 masks. I've never used more than a half-dozen razors in one calendar year. It seems like just another regulation to fuel pork-barrel spending in some Senator or Congressman's district ... just like floor wax.

20.) No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection. (Murphy's Laws of Combat)

Response by MSG Kevin Elliott made May 10 at 2018 9:36 PM

2018-05-10T21:36:49-04:00

I always thought they should get rid of the up or out rules. Not every soldier is ready or wants to be a Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, or higher. I had a few soldiers that came back in after a long break in service and were not able to get promoted fast enough to stay in. I also had some soldiers who were great machine gunners, but absolutely didn't want to be promoted. Not everyone would make it as a career E-4/E-5, but if someone can, and that's what they want, why not?

Response by SFC James Beasley made May 13 at 2018 8:29 AM

2018-05-13T08:29:08-04:00

Running a 4 mile run in combat boots at a 7 minute pace just because someone's uncle in Vietnam did it. Running in combat boots is one of those archaic (not necessary) traditions that should be held in memory only.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2018 5:46 AM

2018-05-21T05:46:53-04:00

SFC,

Can you expound on your thought? Meaning, get rid of formations entirely or in most cases? I am trying to understand your thought but need more from you.

I appreciate the discussion.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2018 11:47 PM

2018-05-21T23:47:21-04:00

Visibility equals a major part of accountability and recognition. Plain n simple!!! NCOs n Ofcrs need to get out from behind the desks n in front of their Troops. See them, let them see you and create recognition!

Response by Maj Eric Gumz made May 23 at 2018 7:41 PM

2018-05-23T19:41:05-04:00

If you want to get rid of things how about some of the new things introduced like the online annual training requirements that most service members just click through? How many hours do we sit through for "training requirements" when we should be in the field increasing our lethality. How about the annual requirement for sexual assault prevention training? Want to stop sexual assault? Stop giving service members their own barracks rooms and bring back squad bays. I'd be willing to bet nobody gets raped or assaulted in front of 50 other people or have the chance to do drugs in front of their entire platoon. The new barracks only make it easier for young service members to hide out and do their own thing, instead of camaraderie we get the anti social kids with no other interaction with their fellow unit members other than what they get at work. Want to save money and decrease divorce rates among service members? Make it illegal to get married before you completed a full first enlistment and also restrict vehicles on base unless for NCOs and up. Think of the money saved from Tricare costs from dependents that are no longer there and how much more accessible medical care is for service members due to reduced demand at the medical centers. Young service members push out kids at the cyclic rate and are hardly old enough to legally drink and we wonder why marriages fail which is also the fastest track to ruin a young service members career and make them financially unstable. We need to go back to the old school and undo the new ways of doing things. Our focus should be the protection and preservation of our greatest asset (our service members) even if that means protecting them from themselves. Invasive leadership and getting to actually KNOW your subordinates and speaking to people in person instead of delegating via email. We are in the people business whether you like it or not and if you don't know your people you are failing them. Get rid of formations? I think not. If your formations are pointless then your leaders aren't doing it right.

Response by SGT Donald Howard made May 26 at 2018 3:30 AM

2018-05-26T03:30:47-04:00

Formations are not archaic in my humble opinion SFC. Purham. Though you could do accountability check of the platoon before a formation, there is far greater likely hood of overlooking an individual that isn't there, where when each platoon in the unit is in formation in front of their Plt. Sgt and Plt. leader, 99.9 times out of 100, it will be noticed. The other reason that the formation is still very pertinent is because 1: The unit commander XO and 1st Sgt, as the 3 individuals assigned responsibility to the personal in that unit, their training, behavior and ensuring that all are operating as a cohesive unit, need to see them for themselves. Yes, you and the other senior NCO's could get the information from the CO or Top sgt and relay it to the Plt, but beings everyone does not always here the same message the same way and often retell what they were told that said and worded in a manner that can and often does change the point the message was intended to express. On a basic fundamental level, formations require all the unit's members to be responsible and disciplined to be where they are supposed to be when they are required. It all my seem archaic and dated, but it is all about order and accountability for every member from the private to his plt.leader ship and the (ie. you) to your superior and right up the line. There is plenty more I could bloviate about, but your a SFC and I'm not going to bore you with what you already have probably thought of your self.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2018 9:53 AM

2018-05-27T09:53:28-04:00

Sweat more bleed less

Response by SSgt Robert Prest made May 28 at 2018 8:56 PM

2018-05-28T20:56:09-04:00

All necessary, need to bring back about twenty of the old things they use to do, to get things right in all branches.

Response by SPC Steve Willis, PhD made May 29 at 2018 4:55 PM

2018-05-29T16:55:37-04:00

As a teenage/early-20s enlisted man, there was plenty we bitched about having to cope with in the Army. That being said, in retrospect 50 years later, I can't think of a single military tradition which I feel should be changed.

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Jun 2 at 2018 11:50 PM

2018-06-02T23:50:18-04:00

I really hate to sound like the old fart that I am. It seems to me that there are altogether too many people these days looking to rid themselves of all things "old". They seem to have a few things in common. first and foremost is a lack of respect for tradition and esprit de corps. Youngsters and noobs (we used to say FNG's) are all hot to get rid of everything that is not "cutting edge". However, those things that are deemed to be no longer necessary are most often the very basic things that form the heart and soul of our tactics, training, and traditions. There have been many modifications and advancements made on everything. But, you can ALWAYS rely on the old Mark 1 Mod 1 anything. Take away all the tech and toys and you are left with your basic ass in the grass grunt who will stomp a mud hole in your ass barehanded. Do a little research on an old French and Indian war soldier named Robert Rogers and Rogers Rangers. Then ask any Spec Ops warrior how much of that "ARCHAIC" knowledge is still being taught today and how much of it is still pertinent. I guarantee it will be an eye opener for you. Respectfully yours. Mike C.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana (1863-1952)

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2018 2:05 PM

2018-06-11T14:05:55-04:00

I don't necessarily agree with getting rid of formations altogether, but I do believe that they are a very useful tool when used properly and without excess. In my view, the only important formation is the 0600 PT formation. I find all others redundant and a waste of time, although in certain circumstances they are very useful because information gets disseminated face-to-face and to the vast majority of the unit in question, thus achieving accountability AND getting everyone on the same page.

Things I'd get rid of:
-Division Review, and anything of the like (looking at you, 82D ABN). The most grueling waste of time I have ever experienced in my military career. Yes, it looks pretty for a couple of hours while some senior folk "keep the speech brief" for a couple of hours while there's Soldiers passing out from the heat.

-Contra-indicated exercises during PT (and D&C during PT, FFS)
There is sound science and vast research in the field of health and fitness. What we do during PT should be both soundly researched AND relevant to what we do as warfighters. Doing flutter kicks and push-ups non-stop isn't conducive to being effective at carrying a fallen comrade out of a kill zone, but it is conducive to shoulder and hip injuries (I'm not saying "no to push ups", I LOVE push ups, but to there are diminishing returns when you do them excessively for the sake of quantity of reps vs. quality of reps).

And maybe I'm wrong, but I think that almost everyone, will agree that D&C during PT time is better used to exercise rather than issuing preparatory commands and commands of execution for every single transition. But, I think it's a useful tool for IET environments where life is supposed to suck 24/7, and does help build discipline and helps new/young Soldiers learn basic D&C commands.

-MILES gear and "bang-bang" stupidity. We need to be using Sim rounds during our training. There's a huge difference between pretending that we got hit and actually getting hit by something that hurts. Concerned about eye/face/ ear injuries? Wear a freaking paintball mask and/or Sand Goggles, problem solved. Yes, it costs more money, and YES, we should be spending more money on that.

Response by SSG Brian Carpenter made Jun 14 at 2018 6:06 AM

2018-06-14T06:06:20-04:00

I think what bothers me most about all this is that this is a SSG who believes this. Who were his leaders? Who let someone reach this rank with that attitude? Trust me even in my day I had some sergeants who were like this. In BNCOC I had a Sergeant complain about Drill Sergeants dropping a Pvt in the rain, I immediately rocked his world with a "what you don't believe in tradition and discipline" what kind of soldiers are you training at Ft. Bragg? My soldiers at Ft. Carson were better trained than this douche. We now see that the Commanders and the Pentagon realize that a stress card carrying Army had no discipline in training. Disrespect, low priority training and NCO's who can't load a magazine into their rifles are the aftershocks of such politically correct fallout. I was a Platoon Sergeant when stress cards came out, my orders were to issue them. I held an open ranks formation as Squad Leaders issued them. Then I did an inspection of my troops and collected them all back. Were my soldiers surprised? Hell no because they knew me and knew discipline. I followed orders but then I made my judgment call and took them back as my soldiers were not a bunch of sissies that couldn't handle their feelings getting hurt. So SSG get your head out of your fourth point of contact and train your troops with discipline before they go to war and die from lack of training!

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Jun 15 at 2018 12:29 AM

2018-06-15T00:29:52-04:00

I have spent the last couple hours reading responses to this thread. I must say that I am overwhelmed and choked up at the almost unanimous attitude in response. It is tangibly powerful, the esprit and dedication. The pride and professionalism. Officer and Enlisted alike, I salute you ALL. You are, and continue to be, what keeps this nation great. Semper Fi

Response by CW3 Larry Rankine made Jun 15 at 2018 10:37 AM

2018-06-15T10:37:53-04:00

Without getting into the "back in my day" response it's still important (meaning vital) to know how to shoot, move and communicate when the batteries go dead.

Response by SSgt Max Gonzales made Jun 18 at 2018 12:25 AM

2018-06-18T00:25:31-04:00

I, personally,never had any kind of protocol,to speak of. My promotions came via,1st Sgt.or a junior officer. No pomp and circumstance,maybe that's why I really don't have a valid reason as to what should or shouldn't happen.

Response by SSgt Max Gonzales made Jun 18 at 2018 12:50 AM

2018-06-18T00:50:17-04:00

Thank you SFC PURHAM,GLAD TO MEET YOU!

Response by PO2 James Andrew Herndon Jr made Jun 18 at 2018 10:09 AM

2018-06-18T10:09:54-04:00

The military is not for those that think we are a corporation it's the military. The problem today is that there are to many that what it to be a typical business ( the military is for killing people and breaking things) and they need to understand following orders is important no matter how dumb they may seem, sometimes they may save your life.

Response by PO1 Douglas Shonk made Jun 26 at 2018 10:58 AM

2018-06-26T10:58:19-04:00

Without formations you lose all accountability of your people. Yes there are special circumstances where it is not feasible for the formation but it is a “must do” and will always be a way of military life.

Response by MAJ Bob Firth made Aug 11 at 2018 7:59 AM

2018-08-11T07:59:37-04:00

No more safety briefings or PT belts.

Response by Lt Col John Culley made Aug 13 at 2018 3:22 PM

2018-08-13T15:22:57-04:00

Saluting when not in a class A dress uniform is unnecessary. Years ago the Air Force nixed saluting and wedding rings on the flight line.

Response by LTC Anthony Heltsley Sr made Aug 18 at 2018 11:37 AM

2018-08-18T11:37:44-04:00

I started seeing many within the military start acting like they did with mom and dad prior to my retirement. What you say am I talking about. Well, this subject is just one. The lack of military bearing, respect, etc was everywhere. Another example of this was when I went through Armor Officer Basic Course. The active duty students got the M1s (nicknamed, Jedi tanks/tankers) and those of us in the Reserves and Guards were placed into the M60s (nicknamed the Dinosaur tanks/tankers). The end of the course was called the 10 - day war where you apply everything you learned in mock battles on defense and offense. The Jedi's never won one battle, NOT ONE! Why? They believed in technology instead of doing a tankers job.

Response by SGT Breck Wilson made Aug 20 at 2018 4:30 PM

2018-08-20T16:30:26-04:00

You do realize that things like an EMP do exist and are actually considered one of the biggest threats to the US. The military is designed to operate under the very worst situations and conditions. All that technology you speak of is usually not available on envisions type deployments. Your JOB as a war fighter is to train and prepare for the absolute worst situations period. If that's not comfortable enough for you or any military members you should probably look for a different line of employment!!!

Response by Cpl Ryan McGrath made Aug 24 at 2018 12:41 AM

2018-08-24T00:41:00-04:00

Just think of all the " I didn't see that message" crap if word wasn't passed in formation. Be at a specific place at a specific time. Not hard to grasp. If you weren't there you were accounted for and plenty of people to tell you what's up and you can ask what the word of the day is. Too many valuable aspects of unit formations. Too many intangible and tangible reasons, tangible meaning you the person I can grab you by the f****** throat and ask if your deaf

Response by PO3 Tyler Siers made Aug 31 at 2018 3:29 PM

2018-08-31T15:29:07-04:00

Personally I can only speak for the Navy . There are no old traditions that need done away with There are however some new policies that should be done away with and a return to tradition. Just my take

Response by PO1 Michael Bruner made Sep 3 at 2018 9:10 PM

2018-09-03T21:10:30-04:00

I don't think I'd call this archaic, but just plain ignorant: The Navy's 1.5 mile run. It's a crappy way of measuring physical endurance. It took me at least 3 miles just to warm up.

Response by PO1 Michael Bruner made Sep 5 at 2018 11:55 AM

2018-09-05T11:55:00-04:00

I don't even know if this one even counts. But I've had to work at several joint commands as either active, reserve or as a civilian contractor. And everytime someone was PCSing at a fusion intel site I was working, the office director (usually an O-5 or O-6) would say something uplifting during the morning meeting about the person who was leaving. Next understandable, it was the persons team lead. Then, all of a sudden the dam would burst with random people would relay some anecdote about the guy or gal, making it sound more important that it really was. For example, some girl would stand up and say: "John's so sweet. So, like, one morning last month, I came in really drunk from the night befoooore. And he found me with my head in a trash caaaaan, puking. So, he walked up and pulled my hair outta my faaaaaace and helped me to my desk. Oh, yeah, by the way, that was me who left all that puke in the trash can that smelled like Jack last month........... He's so sweet."

Response by CPO Lou Oliver made Sep 5 at 2018 3:59 PM

2018-09-05T15:59:25-04:00

Let us follow SFC Randy Purham's logic and see where it leads, shall we? Using his logic, the Army and the Marines need not do forced march drills, after all we have APCs and the like. Oh, you say they may not be available? Well, for those who do not have their head in that dark damp place, you understand that the next military conflict could be a real war against a major power, such as China, who has shown that she is more than capable of taking out our satellites. Therefore, there will be no more GPS, SatCom, or the like. As for formations which I never enjoyed, especially Change of Command Ceremonies, one should know that even multi-level marketing companies know the value of having the group come together to celebrate various events. So, if they rub you the wrong way, do not join any groups of that nature, and the military holds these formations for the same reasons that the multi-level marketing companies do; it is called team spirit.

Response by Cpl D L Parker made Sep 9 at 2018 11:26 PM

2018-09-09T23:26:55-04:00

One thing I thought odd when I was in the USMC; that I think they got rid of, was shooting the M16 in a tight parade sling. I always asked myself how does this apply in a war. Shooting with this sling and a hasty sling is like two experiences (i thought we should have at minimum been in a hasty sling), that's why I hated going to the range.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2019 11:13 AM

2019-03-26T11:13:21-04:00

Contact information for approving authorities on DTS that kick back vouchers with no reasons.

Response by LTC James Washington made Mar 26 at 2019 12:21 PM

2019-03-26T12:21:47-04:00

The headline was on saluting Officer vehicles. That went away a long time ago. To my knowledge it only survives for flag officers with a displayed star plate.
On formations. They form a necessary tradition & discipline foundational to a military ethos.

Response by SSG Roland Shelton made Mar 26 at 2019 12:31 PM

2019-03-26T12:31:41-04:00

I couldn't disagree more. D&C serves many purposes, the primary purposes are:
- it organizes troops for movement from one point to another, promotes unit cohesiveness by acting as one and maintains order and discipline. The individual is no longer an individual, but part of a team.

- It reenforces promotes prompt obedience to orders, without hesitation or question which is critical in the Army's mission.
- D&C is Not a tradition, but a fundamental aspect of maintaining order and discipline and esprit de corps.
- Formations are crucial in that everyone receives the same information at the same time. Leaders should make it a priority to be there with the troops. A soldier should be at their appointed place and time of duty and if anyone has ro go Knocking on doors or to the soldier's home, there's a problem.
- formations not only provide accountability, they insure soldiers are present and that orders for the day are disseminated, if necessary.
- Adulthood? I do not see this point at all. Thinks like D&C and formations not only support command and control, both maintain it.
In all units, there are some soldiers that would take advantage of loose standards and that affects readiness.
Leaders should always know where their soldiers are and they are performing their duties. "Assuming" is a trap and a violation of leadership responsibilities.
Being treated like an adult and being treated like a soldier are one and the same. I accepted that when I volunteered.
That means that soldiers accept duties as mature adults and good soldiers alike.
You cannot sacrifice disciplane to accommodate technology
You train for combat and combat conditions not for the old complaint of being treated like a child
Those that believe that complaint are missing the entire point of being a soldier.

Response by CW4 Brian Haas made Mar 26 at 2019 3:02 PM

2019-03-26T15:02:37-04:00

Sounds like a great NCO and leader. I don’t want to see my guys. I just want to text them. How damn lazy can someone be? Don’t like the way it’s done? GTFO...it seems the unit would be better for it.

Response by PO1 Andrew Plack made Mar 26 at 2019 7:49 PM

2019-03-26T19:49:31-04:00

It bothers me every time someone wants to do away with a tradition, simply because it’s outdated. Tradition is where our collective roots are planted, and I firmly believe that it’s the responsibility of senior service members to ‘feed & water’ the new folks in the traditions until their own roots take hold and they take ownership. And don’t just make them do it ‘because you say so’; learn and understand the reasons for the traditions and pass those on, too. For instance, if you explain the history of the hand salute, it becomes more than just a hand gesture that you have to do.

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Mar 27 at 2019 1:21 AM

2019-03-27T01:21:00-04:00

PO1 Andrew Plack, I'm sure it bothered a lot of SMs over the years when things they were used to changed and went away due to Command (Personnel changes), technology, or the inefficiency of that process. No matter how much history and education on the subject, I am most certain you wouldn't have your soldiers row a battleship or a fleet carrier while on sea duty.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2019 4:58 AM

2019-03-27T04:58:11-04:00

You are a tool. The idea that a company commander will make face to face contact daily with 140 separate individuals is idiotic. Even if that we’re feasible, 15 minutes times 140 individuals beats the hell out of 10 minutes times 1 person times 140 times from a guy who is responsible for 140 people. I had 305 people in my company, with whom I had personal contact with maybe 30 per day in combat. 140 is a dream.

Response by SPC Eric McInteer made Mar 27 at 2019 7:34 AM

2019-03-27T07:34:21-04:00

Outdated traditions, how about change of command ceremonies, and the change of responsibility ceremonies. There isn’t a soldier there who wants to listen to the LTC or CSM blather on. As for those who want to do away with formations and drill/manual of arms those are core common skills for all soldiers. Medic, mechanic, grunt, all are soldiers first and much like they all participate in PT, etc., they should all regularly participate in drill.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2019 12:09 PM

2019-03-28T12:09:01-04:00

I'm bout to get blown up for this
Treating the Infantry like they are the greatest thing in the world.
Why are they treated like they're the best, getting unique uniform items, badges, and stuff when they are the most basic type of soldier with literally no specialization?
Infantry means child soldier, the most unspecialized type that are utilized with casualties in mind. Is it appeasement "Hey you're a simple soldier and we expect half of you to get whacked the first day of combat so here's a blue cord and some disks so you can feel and act like you're better than everyone else who actually has a specialization. Feel free to treat them like crap even though without them you won't get paid, fed, repaired, etc..."

Response by 2LT Earl Dean made Apr 21 at 2019 12:34 PM

2019-04-21T12:34:18-04:00

We need to get back to someone the old ways of doing things. Gps is great a d the use of thec is wonderful, however! Get hit by a. Emp and you will be instantly back in history using compass and map, sending messages by runner instead of by text or cell. Knowing the old ways can make things easyier for you and your men. Plus get into a firebase that can't be reached right away and your battery goes to hell what will you do then?

Response by SFC Robert Walton made May 21 at 2019 11:28 AM

2019-05-21T11:28:16-04:00

None of it should go away that is why the Military is so soft today. The stuff everyone wants to get rid of these days is the things that Made Soldiers SOLDIER'S not Civilians. Most of the things Soldiers of today want to get rid of are things that were evaluated and considered for the next promotion but then now they hand out stripes like candy so guess none of that is needed any more. JMT

Response by SFC Robert Walton made May 21 at 2019 12:02 PM

2019-05-21T12:02:39-04:00

I have read a Major part of this thread. I can't but shake my head. Little scenario for those who care. May 30th 2019 America is under attack like (9-11) communication towers are destroyed phones don't work cell phones don't work News media is a local thing. How do you bring Soldiers to arms?

lower enlisted through CSM in my day all knew we're going to the unit for a formation. time immedate.
equipment combat all Military issue except dress.

Enlisted most but not all today will just stay home because no one called or text what to do.

I our day if America was attack and communications were out you knew where to go when and with what. Today not so much. We were train with everything we done so we could operate with little or no information.

Now everyone is waiting for orders in my day if communications was down we had alert rosters who notified whom and if not by phone then drive to their house and each individual knew where the person or persons live that they should alert. Now alot of people do not know where anyone in their unit lives. Nco's of today are (from what i have read on RP and other sites) not allowed to even visit lower enlisted Soldiers unless they live in the Barracks. God Help us we are doomed. JMO

Response by SSgt Bob Murray made Jun 9 at 2019 5:09 PM

2019-06-09T17:09:30-04:00

There are too many things today that are being discarded. What negative results are there in following traditions that come with the breeding of discipline, esprit de corps and pride in ones self? Our society has declined with elimination of teaching our youth or, I should say not teaching our youth basic tenants of our government and our culture, which is an amalgam of the world.

Response by CPT David Starkey made Jun 9 at 2019 6:10 PM

2019-06-09T18:10:14-04:00

I had several troops that if you didn't look them in the face would be somewhere else. Specifically they would sign into an event (vaccinations, equal opportunity, etc) and disappear. Even put them on a truck to the rifle range and poof.

Response by SFC Terry Wilcox made Jun 9 at 2019 7:43 PM

2019-06-09T19:43:18-04:00

There are thousands (maybe more) young men and women that might become great soldiers but cannot meet the Military's standards. Many have no HS diploma or GED (I didn't 1964), many are way out of shape (I saw many in basic 1964 that the Army worked, carved out viable soldiers) Mental standards I can understand... Crazy's don't need to have extreme combat skills. Some of those below today's standards (as I did) remained in the military retired after a great career, productive citizens vs a drain on the economy.

Response by LTC Gene Moser made Jun 9 at 2019 9:44 PM

2019-06-09T21:44:26-04:00

I may have heard of this from poor sources. I went through the FA Advanced Course in 72-73. The Gunnery Department still taught manual gunnery . I heard - second hand, third hand? that the Gunnery Department went from manual to computer to solve the gunnery problem. After that training rounds began to land outside of safe more and more. They went back to manual gunnery. No problem. I think there are time honored events that need to be retained. Case in point, when I was an army brat right after Custer left Ft. Sill for the Wachita, we - my five, six, and seven year old friends stopped what we were doing when "Retreat" began.

Response by SGT Mary G. made Jun 9 at 2019 11:38 PM

2019-06-09T23:38:30-04:00

It seems that being present in formations is the specific issue being addressed as an "archaic or traditional thing" which is leading to considering formations to be archaic. In garrison as long as an SM can reliably be accounted for there are times when it is not necessary for individuals, on a case by case basis, to be in formation. And the amount of formations per week probably varies from Company to Company. Formations do have their place, and accountability is a big deal actually, in some circumstances more than others. Unit cohesion is also a big deal - everyone present and accounted for, face to face presence makes a good difference. Of course PT every morning served that purpose too - but that is (was?) the Army. I don't know about Sailors, Marines, and Airmen.

Response by LTC John Bush made Jun 10 at 2019 11:27 AM

2019-06-10T11:27:17-04:00

I don't know about the other services but when the Army does its business it is as a team. Everything is done to increase the identification and spirit of the team. I understand that individuals that do administrative/ technical functions sometimes fee divorced from the team, particularly in peacetime. However, that is an indicator more not less is needed. Perhaps the nature of activities to maintain cohesion can be altered but the objective is the same. I remember going to firebases where I got artillery support and talking to FDC people also medevac so I would not be just a voice over the radio.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2019 1:48 PM

2019-06-10T13:48:58-04:00

Change of commands.

Response by SGT Ronald Audas made Jun 11 at 2019 11:37 AM

2019-06-11T11:37:29-04:00

I stood in very few formations after Basic and AIT .Therefore l can't see it as much of an issue.Formations were a big part of the break down from civilian life to military.This sets the stage for traditions.I'm pretty sure that E-6 and above get tired of tradition,but that's how we less ranked soldiers maintain control.

Response by LCpl John Shad made Jun 12 at 2019 12:30 AM

2019-06-12T00:30:08-04:00

Just like moderation of sexes, I don’t think anything should be changed for the same reason. There are only two sexes which are male & female but somehow in moderation we think there is more or we been programmed to believe that there is more. Paper Maps still have their place as like when I’m traveling across the US. Sure I use gps but a paper map would be good to draw the lines so I can see where I have been and make adjustments from that. Also good to show people exactly which route I took

Response by 2LT Antonio Gonzalez made Jun 13 at 2019 11:13 AM

2019-06-13T11:13:02-04:00

Another nut job whom does not fully understand how to follow directives, if you don't like the heat MORON get out of the kitchen or go play some video war games

Response by SMSgt John Ridlehoover made Jun 13 at 2019 12:37 PM

2019-06-13T12:37:28-04:00

The primary reason for formations is to maintain discipline. Having said that, I have never been a fan of formations, especially past basic training!

Response by SSG Simeon Mokhiber made Jun 13 at 2019 3:07 PM

2019-06-13T15:07:04-04:00

Women in the military

Response by SPC Steven Oxley made Jun 13 at 2019 5:37 PM

2019-06-13T17:37:07-04:00

What kind of panzy ass question is that.

Response by TSgt Gary Garvin made Jun 14 at 2019 11:05 AM

2019-06-14T11:05:58-04:00

We have lost a lot when we got rid of traditions ie; tacking on stripes, uniforms, Esprit de corps, etc.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Jun 14 at 2019 2:28 PM

2019-06-14T14:28:04-04:00

Keep off the grass.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2019 9:15 PM

2019-06-14T21:15:49-04:00

This was posted by a SFC?
Troll level 9000. Or (and I mean this with as much respect as I can muster) OP is a complete shitbag.

Response by LtCol Paul Bowen made Jun 15 at 2019 1:56 PM

2019-06-15T13:56:28-04:00

Join the Marines and find out!

Response by SGT Kenneth Cox made Jun 15 at 2019 5:09 PM

2019-06-15T17:09:06-04:00

Bloused dress pants for Paratroopers. I know this is the traditional way the paratroopers use to be identified but in today's dress uniforms bloused pants look like clown pants. The army changed the garrison cap for the red beret , time to unblouse the boots

Response by LtCol Paul Bowen made Jun 15 at 2019 6:19 PM

2019-06-15T18:19:40-04:00

The Marine Corps is 200 years of tradition, uninhibited by progress.

Response by PO2 James Brown made Jun 15 at 2019 7:48 PM

2019-06-15T19:48:40-04:00

https://www.rallypoint.com/assets/default/avatar_feed.png

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Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2019 8:04 PM

2019-06-15T20:04:47-04:00

For me, there is only one: Blousing the pants.

Response by LTJG Paul Bronder made Jun 15 at 2019 9:16 PM

2019-06-15T21:16:32-04:00

Tradition needs to stay in my opinion. In this time new recruits think that technology is the way to go, however if you can’t think outside the box what is going to happen when the satellite goes out and your coms are dead. Would the new recruits know how to use a compass or just be able to read the stars at night or the position of the sun to let them know where they are. Will they be able to read the tide without their newer electronic devices?

Response by LTC Charles "Pappy" Patchin made Jun 15 at 2019 9:43 PM

2019-06-15T21:43:28-04:00

I saw some of the products of the new Army spawned by technology on the coverage of the D-Day Anniversary. I was embarrassed. I saw troops that could not march and keep in step. A consequence of a lack of leadership at all levels, perhaps? I saw uniforms that did not fit and berets that looked like popovers. All indicative of leadership failures at all levels. I felt sorry for our representatives we sent to Normandy to pay homage to soldiers that were their same age 70 years ago. Our allies sent troops that marched and looked very sharp. They looked professional. Ours looked undisciplined and untrained. Even though our "technologists" have more combat experience they looked terrible compared to other armies. I've worn no stripes, stripes and was commissioned. Basic leadership builds teams, discipline insures that when an order is given it is obeyed. Today's "technologists" want everything easy. No formations, no face-to-face and nothing more difficult than pushing a button to order a pizza in the field. March to the range, rifle, pistol or land nav course. Stop and do sit up and push ups. Be proficient, be hard, look competent and professional. IT SAVES LIVES. A disciplined unit will overcome a horde every time.

Response by GySgt Thomas Vick made Jun 16 at 2019 9:50 AM

2019-06-16T09:50:14-04:00

I agree I think we need to go back in time, knowing how to read a map and compass can be really helpful when your GPS isn't working.

Response by MAJ Francis St.Jacques made Jun 16 at 2019 10:22 AM

2019-06-16T10:22:55-04:00

Our "traditions" are based in history and the foundation of who we are today. The origin of the salute and even the hand shake are a part of military history and yet no one mocks them?

Response by A1C Elizabeth Najjar made Jun 17 at 2019 9:14 AM

2019-06-17T09:14:21-04:00

Get from behind that desk, soldier!

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Jun 18 at 2019 9:29 AM

2019-06-18T09:29:52-04:00

The breakdown in discipline begins. First you eliminate the teaching of history under the guise it is offensive to some. Then you denigrate and eliminate traditions and customs...because it's so...archaic and 'in our opinion...no longer needed.' Then you emphasize tech over hands on learning. This should work well except for the swim qual, but I'm sure there'll be an app for that soon. The Profession of Arms is not a vocation for everyone. It's why a volunteer force is much more effective than a conscripted one. You have to want to. It's why anyone who volunteered only because they wanted a 'free education' are never as happy as those who joined to be part of the profession and the education was simply a benefit. Those 'archaic' traditions...formations, uniforms, saluting, manual of arms...are all about discipline...which in our society today is rapidly disappearing. So, as it usually rolls around every few years, as newer element of our society infiltrate our ranks, they bring their upbringing with them. Boot Camp is more difficult than ever because the hardest thing to teach is discipline. I would say that if you don't like tradition...have issues with customs and courtesies...and feel that history is either boring or doesn't apply to you, and ultimately, things that instill discipline..i.e..formations, marching, repetitive training, ....respect....then I'd submit you are mostly in it for the pay and benefits and maybe the family tradition. It's good to question what we do...but it's also a good to put it in perspective. It's a PROFESSION...not a 9-5 job.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Jun 20 at 2019 12:23 PM

2019-06-20T12:23:09-04:00

I know I'll catch hell for this one and I don't care----the reveille and retreat on Air Force bases and the accompanying "Attention" even in civilian clothes always pissed me off to no end. Try explaining THAT to a UK born (ex) wife whom is a complete idiot in the first place, even though she was so smoking hot I had to put up with her for a while. But, it wasn't just that. No one wanted to participate. I have seen every rank there is time their outside trips to not coincide with the music, seen every rank dodge it. Well, ok, don't think I ever saw a General officer do that, because I wasn't around them much.

I've also had to stand outside in the pouring fucking rain (17 of my 21.5 years was in the UK) holding a fucking hand salute waiting for that long-assed song to finish. It never failed to occur to me that the very definition of stupidity in our society is not being smart enough to come in out of the rain.

Believe it or not, I'm a traditionalist. Salutes should never be abolished, just for one example, and I can't think of anything else at this point in time that I think should. Much of it serves us very well and has for literally, centuries.

You asked.

Response by SSgt Stan Sugrue made Jun 20 at 2019 4:27 PM

2019-06-20T16:27:11-04:00

On GPS as a subset of the discussion...its great till it isn't. If your out on water at night and GPS goes south (pun intended), in for not fun time if nobody has coastal nav skills (if you're lucky enough to be near a coast when GPS take a dump) or celestial nav if even further away from home. EVERYONE should should plan for no SATs or cell phones. Specials shouldn't be special in this regard; even civilians need emergency skills.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jun 25 at 2019 7:14 PM

2019-06-25T19:14:41-04:00

I have a hard time with this. The longer I live, the more I am concerned because we can't seem to find many who will do the hard things. The basics are hard to endure. I think as leaders we have allowed too many creature comforts and tech to the point we have lowered the tolerance of the suck. I think we are going to have to do hard things because they are hard and not allow whining that is sure to ensue.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2019 8:13 PM

2019-07-11T20:13:36-04:00

You're a fucking idiot.

Response by PO3 Michael Sackett made Jul 11 at 2019 11:35 PM

2019-07-11T23:35:14-04:00

As far as I am concerned, all military traditions are invaluable. At headquarters on the quarterdeck was a sign that I will always remember, Doing dumb things is good for discipline. There is no way of knowing if something is not a useful tradition, it could be lifesaving information. Something that is ingrained in your mind from the training we receive can make the difference panic or action, or fight or flight. There are reasons to learn map and compass, GPS is often inconsistent and unreliable. Military traditional haircuts were such that a enemy could not grab you by the hair. Military time, less chance of an error. The civilian population has many ridiculous traditions that make no sense at all. I hope that you will find that these traditions join us together as veterans, we share these traditions proudly. It is what makes Brothers in Arms.

Response by LTC Howard Lund made Jul 12 at 2019 5:14 PM

2019-07-12T17:14:48-04:00

Military traditions set us apart from the rest of our citizens. Formations demonstrate unity, ability to follow orders and shows strength. Other traditions, such as stopping and getting out of your car for Retreat ceremonies shows we are a part of something larger than ourselves and that we honor this wonderful country.

Response by SGT Donna Millar made Jul 14 at 2019 10:48 AM

2019-07-14T10:48:35-04:00

Actually, I disagree with most everything about this and have to wonder “how the heck did you get to SFC with ideas like this?” I honestly believe that many of our defunct “traditions” be brought BACK! As has been pointed out by several people, land navigation definitely needs to be taught WITHOUT the use of GPS. If you can’t read a map get out! NBC...get in that gas chamber and learn what the equipment is for, when my husband deployed all the protective masks were left in the mil van. D & C...come on, learn how to march. I’ve seen some of the most god-awful Honor Guard marches at events, just makes my head spin. The PT test needs to evolve into something more than sit-ups, push-ups, and a run. Formations... learn how “dress-right-dress” is actually supposed to look. What a bunch of rag tag soldiers I have seen in some formations. And bring back boots that need to be spit shined. There’s no better way to develop comraderie than sitting in a circle with other soldiers working on a common task. I could go on and on about “today’s Army”....but I won’t.
SGT(r) Millar
Desert Storm

Response by CMSgt Dennis Hawxhurst made Jul 14 at 2019 6:14 PM

2019-07-14T18:14:54-04:00

The whole hat wearing whenever outside is a ridiculous custom in my opinion. As a SERE Specialist, I can tell you that sometimes hats are a bad idea when trying to regulate body heat, etc.

Response by PO3 Rod Arnold made Jul 15 at 2019 3:06 AM

2019-07-15T03:06:36-04:00

So much has changed since Vietnam it would be very hard to come up with a good answer!

Response by SFC Brion Wood made Jul 15 at 2019 5:13 PM

2019-07-15T17:13:37-04:00

Formations are for accountability, which, by the way, is the core of a leaders job, information, inspection and essentially basic soldiering skills. If you dont want formations, maybe the Air Force better suits you.

Response by MCPO Hilary Kunz made Jul 16 at 2019 11:20 AM

2019-07-16T11:20:08-04:00

Morning Quarters is more than just tradition, it allows for a good count of personnel, ensures that there’s no “telephone game” missed information, and promulgates daily assignments.
Quarters for inspection, or ceremonies are also a military necessity, making sure that Sailors have their uniforms, letting them see the rewards for hard work, or discussing upcoming pivotal events.

Response by PO1 Mike Wallace made Jul 16 at 2019 4:30 PM

2019-07-16T16:30:02-04:00

My granddaughter has been in the Navy now for a year. I was amazed at the way information was communicated to the enlisted. Emails, chat, and more and it might be ok for an old salt who understands how things work but it is counterproductive to those newbies that are still finding their way around. In addition like in all things there will be interpretations that vary from sailor to sailor. As an LPO during my time serving I liked everyone hearing the same thing and having questions answered so all could hear. As commented new technology does not necessarily mean progress!

Response by LT Richard Mondak made Jul 17 at 2019 8:50 AM

2019-07-17T08:50:03-04:00

Nothing to Report.
Military "traditions" are mostly founded on tried and true methods. In retrospect, I am glad that as a young enlisted sailor, I had to ask permission for just about anything - including permission to be married when I was an E-4. My CO actually sent my "request chit" to my then fiance "to prove that someone actually wanted to marry me".
It seems to be taken for granted that after duty hours, you don't have to "be in the _______ (service branch)". After Navy retirement, I also worked for the Army at Fort Drum, NY and was appalled at the lack of military bearing when the uniforms came off. Granted, I wasn't perfect, but I never forgot who and what I represented. It seems just too easy to separate one's self from a voluntary service commitment.

Response by CPL Michael Moore made Jul 17 at 2019 9:10 PM

2019-07-17T21:10:04-04:00

Formations , DC etc are not just done because that’s the way it’s always been done. They are part of the pillars of discipline. There is no better way for troops to gauge their leadership, no better way to feed off commands confidence in the assigned mission.
If your commander exudes military bearing , logic, humor and warrior spirit it transmits through that face to face that formations allow. Look at the history of your profession of Arms. Most of our successful commanders exhibited 2 or more qualities that led their commands to have absolute confidence in their leadership.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Jul 18 at 2019 8:53 PM

2019-07-18T20:53:21-04:00

Sp4 Byron Skinner…Marching in formation goes back to the 18th. Century with the British Army. The reason then still applies today it is the fastest way to move a group of soldiers on foot…even ragged formations such as road marched in a hostel fir situation, it drastically reduces stragglers and thai prevent the enemy for picking off the individual where as they would not fire on a format that in a matter of seconds can have solders is pre designated firing positions. The Drill and ceremony just get everybody on the same page of how and where to carry his/her service rifle. Again its order. order is efficiency efficacy is getting the drop on the enemy. What is next, say the Army doesn't need Combat Boots and Nikes would be more comfortable and cuter….I think the PT uniform is unnecessary. A shoulder should do his road work (what tay running was called in the day) in their Combat uniform with their helmet and with their service rifle at port arms and and cadence should be called, you are not going to wear you PT uniform in combat and not providing it would save the Army a lot of money.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jul 18 at 2019 9:33 PM

2019-07-18T21:33:47-04:00

Ya know, I've really gotta hand it to you, that's a really good question, really well-phrased...admittedly, I've gotta give it some serious thought, however, really, once in awhile I see one on here that really makes my mental gears turn, yours definitely did...serious kudos for that one, for real, honest....

Response by SGT Jeff Everhart made Jul 19 at 2019 1:57 AM

2019-07-19T01:57:03-04:00

What's up with the Stetsons and spurs?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2019 1:06 PM

2019-07-19T13:06:20-04:00

Calling the room/area to attention any time an officer comes in. How many manhours are lost every single day because people have to stop working and come to attention when an officer decides to pay a visit? Prime example: I was working a road project at Langley back in the day. Pet project of the MAC commander (build a road through a tidal swamp around the gold course so he didn't risk his car getting hit with a golfball on his annual inspection tour to the Engineering facility at the back of the course). I swear he was out there at least 2-3 times a week to "see how things were going". Of course, every time he came out all work stopped. His visits were usually 30-40 minutes, so you can image that at 2-3 times a week we were losing several hours of work each week due to his constant visits. Inevitably we got behind schedule and he was pissed. He came out to reprimand us for being behind and, being the brash young E5 I was at the time, I made the comment, "Well, you know Sir, if you would stop coming out here all the time we might could get some work done.". Yep, it took less than an hour for me to lose a stripe. But he stopped coming and we not only got back on schedule but finished a couple of weeks early. I got my stripe back, an AFCM and a personal letter of recommendation from 4 star General Robert Russ.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2019 2:34 PM

2019-07-19T14:34:34-04:00

Not archaic but definitely becoming a tradition: PT belts during the day time. I can never wrap my head around that one. Midday, not a cloud in the sky but you've got to wear a PT belt.

Response by PO3 Terry Miller made Jul 19 at 2019 5:38 PM

2019-07-19T17:38:58-04:00

I can only cite Navy experience. We marched in boot camp everywhere we went. We learned the manual of arms. After boot camp I never once marched again or touched a rifle. That wasted time could have been better spent learning about ships, the sea, naval history and a hundred other things that actually do matter out in the fleet. An introduction to the various ratings recruits might be eligible to strike for would be of better benefit than doing things that will never again be required after boot camp.

Response by SFC Dennis Yancy made Jul 22 at 2019 1:32 PM

2019-07-22T13:32:44-04:00

Traditions are what makes us who we are. West Point gray uniforms come from Winfield Scott and War of 1812. "My god those are regulars" I think is close quote from British general. Keeps reminding us of our history and we are part of something bigger than us. Yes some units do not have formations. Overseas Nike-Hercules units rarely held formations and those that did could barely get a third together at one time. These "archaic" practices are what keeps us in touch with those that came before.

Response by Joe Rock made Jul 29 at 2019 2:43 AM

2019-07-29T02:43:26-04:00

Written test

Response by Sgt Patrick Chesbro made Aug 13 at 2019 9:20 AM

2019-08-13T09:20:24-04:00

regular formations are necessary for discipline, and unit cohesiveness as well as uniformity. we also need to get away from political correctness and get back to the Patton/Puller military, our job is to defend the country by any means at our disposal, to destroy our enemy and not to worry about treading on their culture.

Response by PO1 Richard Nick made Aug 15 at 2019 11:44 AM

2019-08-15T11:44:48-04:00

One thing that I have always believed was archaic was the many rules within the UCMJ that are outdated. The UCMJ needs to be purged and updated to include pertinent information that has led to the decline of good order and discipline within the ranks. The military is reactive and not proactive in creating a governing document that addresses the legitimate issues faced in the world that is solely based on technology.

Response by CPT Endre Barath made Aug 17 at 2019 1:08 AM

2019-08-17T01:08:35-04:00

I have a hard time believing that four people voted this post down. Seriously?? What were they thinking???

Response by CPT Dennis Stevenson made Aug 17 at 2019 8:25 AM

2019-08-17T08:25:28-04:00

Even though I've been in the hi-tech business since 1964, I don't buy reliance on hi-tech on the battlefield. Things go wrong with tech -- like quit working just when you need them. Or they don't work as advertised. It still takes grunts to take a hill and hold it. In Vietnam we faced an enemy without all that technology but they knew the terrain and the people; we know how that turned out.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2019 10:08 AM

2019-08-17T10:08:38-04:00

Be nice, act nice to others. We should just act like regular people. Have common decency and respect. In the past as well as right now, many times we are told to act a particular way while off duty. We should just act regular, like hard nose disciplined types we are. If a problem comes up act accordingly. No more being overly polite or low key. Because someone said it's a good idea. In todays world the nice guy will come up short.

Response by MSgt Steven Harris made Aug 17 at 2019 4:01 PM

2019-08-17T16:01:23-04:00

The modern person's way of thinking is wrong and based on individuals' rights to make their own standards in life not fully focused supportive teams, which all military units require for success in the hazardous environments they operate. This requires the breakdown of the concept of individuality of a person to build a team-player who is ready to give their all, (heart, body mind and soul), 24 hours a day to the missions and their service careers as soldiers and later leaders of soldiers! It is the "profession of war, defense of nations, and peace sustainment," not a business for profit or higher education sorority or a video game simulation! All members must be prepared the same mentally, physically, and spiritually to become emerged into a greater family and team operations, where they are willing to die for each other and kill the enemies when needed; No Less IS EXPECTED from each signee of the contracts. They own your life and every aspect of it for the term of your contracts! anyone who does not understand it upon entry will once boot camp starts and their first assignment begins and preparation for that first mission begins! Your family, friends and other relationships and goals are secondary to the Mission success-- Fight Win or Die Trying is a soldier's motto no matter what branch assigned- The ways to prepare a soldier for WARS and chaotic terrifying environments will always be the same and society will never understand what it takes to build a "soldiers'. You are a highly valuable asset, chess piece, and guinea pig, but still an expendable member in the eyes of the civilians ho pay for your lodging, training, education, skills and leadership development ! It is the truth and that simple. You sign on to the team and they own you and anything attached to you. So be sure you understand your rights for self are gone if they deem it necessary! Find a new way of life, if you can't live by our code and higher standards and the inconveniences involved! It is a brotherhood and life of sacrifice & challenges & successes like no other--Retired MSGT USAF!

Response by MSgt Steven Harris made Aug 17 at 2019 4:37 PM

2019-08-17T16:37:21-04:00

Here's what you and most of the new technological generation do not understand. You survive on your personal skils and teamwork when technology fails! It always fails in combat and you are there to restore it or succeed without its advantages. It weakens a soldier to trust primarily on his armor and technology. As others have said , the old ways got us this far and special ops units go in with very little technology to accomplish their operations because it is too heavy and restricts their movements and agility and brains and on the spot problem solving and innovation is the key to success when nothing is assured. You think you know better than your older supervisors and commanders but you don't know War and team-building of people like they do! You better wise-up and realize they are your ticket and only way young troops make it home alive and when the technology, aerial & logistical support and planning fails! A theater of War is not a perfect science or strategy, but a living, flexible, highly intelligent organism made up of many functions and organs that must adjust and survive in whatever extreme environment it exists, and this entity must be able to think on their feet and change directions in an instant if enemy tactics or conditions are different than expected by intelligence reports. You as soldier are just one tiny microscopic piece of this gigantic being who has one goal and purpose to defend against all enemies foreign and domestic and preserve the rights of the people given to them by our US constitution! The leaders appointed over you are both military and non-military not elected or approved by you, but your life is in their hands to use as they please! You have one choice to go as commanded or get out and return to the peaceful society of which you came! You will never belong to that civilian society once you have lived fully as soldier and especially not as a leader of soldiers- They will never understand what we faced and did nor want to be apart of it! That is what makes us special and unique and outsiders to the rest of society. You will never be a part of a team or society that gives you the opportunities and requires more of you and your family than the military! It is based on merit and trust and necessity for success-any job after it is apiece of cake, as long as you can accept their lower standards of living and poor leadership and lack of concern for the each member, because money-driven operations don't care about the people's needs nor the tools they need or the risks involved by the workers like the US military does! The leaders know our true value and they do their best to provide whatever we need to succeed in our missions and reduce casualties because we are loved and valued by the brotherhood and its commanders! Only God has placed such value on a person and his family! Who created the concept of honorable service to a nation? Not human rulers but Divine superior minds! You will understand those things too once you have walked in the boots and faced your true enemies of flesh and spirit forms. One day, you will know the meaning of faith, hope and forgiveness and mercy and life's true purpose in development of greater people who live by much greater standards, laws, and honorable codes of conduct than the rest and will die to preserve it all for future generations and their "Good" GOD.

Response by SFC Terry Wilcox made Aug 26 at 2019 5:14 PM

2019-08-26T17:14:53-04:00

Get rid of Daylight Savings Time - According to a member of congress.

Response by CPL Rustin Briggs made Aug 31 at 2019 11:18 PM

2019-08-31T23:18:15-04:00

Technology is like the safety on your weapon SFC Purham. It is a device that can and will fail, and then what? Formations gave me pride, that I was there in a uniform with my brothers in theirs together, being a unit and not a bunch of individuals. And all coming and going walking underneath the Rakkasan Tori, all the same together. A txt or email could never give me that sense of pride. And yes if you ever go to a Lowe’s or Home Depot before they open theyhave a formation and end it with a yell.

Response by SPC William Szkromiuk made Sep 29 at 2019 2:34 PM

2019-09-29T14:34:40-04:00

I feel a "snowflake" weather report coming :-)

Response by SGT William Nixson made Oct 8 at 2019 10:25 PM

2019-10-08T22:25:01-04:00

Sad times that we are even considering this!

Response by CPO Heidi Cermak made Nov 2 at 2019 7:29 PM

2019-11-02T19:29:13-04:00

bring back liberty cards for E-3 and below in the navuy. I carried one until i got promoted. My senior chief would pull them.

Response by SGT Ed Matyjasik made Nov 3 at 2019 4:59 PM

2019-11-03T16:59:09-05:00

Don't know if they still train you this way. But one of the stupidest things we were ever taught was to get on line and attack a bunker complex. That's a good way to get everyone killed. Some lifer's never learn.

Response by SFC Charles Temm made Nov 14 at 2019 11:13 AM

2019-11-14T11:13:12-05:00

Certain things are done to reinforce you are part of something bigger than you. Tradition maybe but the idea that you are a part of a unit, reinforced by daily formations where you can see the men who work w/you and also depend on you....

Response by SPC David S. made Feb 7 at 2020 1:02 PM

2020-02-07T13:02:15-05:00

I say we need to go in the other direction - when all the tech stuff fails it get primitive real fast. ACOGS break, batteries go dead in GPS gear and so on.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2020 2:35 PM

2020-02-25T14:35:41-05:00

Funny cause I never check email or respond to text messages!!!

Response by MSgt David Winstead made Feb 25 at 2020 7:01 PM

2020-02-25T19:01:16-05:00

I agree that saluting an officer's vehicle at the gate is unwarranted and unnecessary...the object at the gate is grant entry of vehicles not the person inside it. As a gate guard granting entry of vehicles, i must admit, it was fun saluting after the permission to enter wave.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2020 9:50 AM

2020-02-26T09:50:21-05:00

Yes let’s do away with basic soldiering and military baring. This type of leadership will only bring more chaos and more poop-baggery to the military. If you can’t handle having formations, maybe you shouldn’t be in the military. any formation I’ve ever been in was to disseminate information, check for accountability, awards and ceremonies and to get a company wide butt chewing. Stay with the traditions the army has had for 200+ years. If anything we need to bring back a lot of things from the “old army”.

Response by SPC Phillip Vossler made May 24 at 2020 4:23 PM

2020-05-24T16:23:14-04:00

I Ets'd in Feb 05, with 60% disability, am now at 100%. Ive been gone for just over 15 years, what in the name of all that is holy have you done to my beloved Army? You people are killing me. As a person who had to endure pass and reviews in full battle rattle in Virginia heat, to listen to a General thank everyone, from the doctor who slapped him on the butt when he was born, to his last command, i get it, some traditions can be tiresome. However some are humbling and amazing, and make you feel a part of something larger and grander than yourself. I have watched for years on FB, the decline of the Army, now this, OMG these soldiers have lost their damn minds. Surely the officers and senior NCO'S can fix this, can do better than this. Just my 2 cents, but then again, im just an old school Spc, what the hell do i know, right?

Response by SPC John Decker made May 27 at 2020 9:00 AM

2020-05-27T09:00:21-04:00

Formations are not only about disseminating information. They are also about discipline and the maintenance thereof. You chose to enlist. That life is different, in many ways, from life on the street.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2021 11:59 AM

2021-05-23T11:59:47-04:00

Yes many want to just text until the person texting isn’t your Soldier. I’ve had to hold formations where Soldiers had to voice call in due to appts., and other extenuating circumstances. It was in our unit policies. It confirmed I am talking to my Soldier, confirming there whereabouts and that they are ok. I don’t think we should let the last year dictate unit accountability or formations. Hopefully we can stop virtual because we almost got rid of all the time wasting sitting Soldiers at computers before COVID.

Response by SFC Don Ward made May 23 at 2021 11:43 PM

2021-05-23T23:43:03-04:00

This from an E-7?