What do you think should be done about a service member that does not promote?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 14:03:54 -0400

When you have a SM that will not go to the school needed to promote (WLC, ALC, SLC) and is holding a slot that prevents others below him/her from promoting.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Aug 4 at 2017 2:09 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 14:09:35 -0400

You also have the option of transferring laterally to another unit with a slot open for your mos just across the border in a neighboring state. We saw this all the time in our unit. You can also re class but in some situations the unit you go to can put you in an over strength slot which might be temporary until that position opens up. The very best of luck to you in your search for those buck stripes.

Response by SPC P. John Zimmer made Aug 4 at 2017 3:00 PM

SPC P. John Zimmer — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 15:00:19 -0400

I was in the same position after I re-classed. I return to my National Guard post and the E-5 slots were gone. The promise of holding one was worthless. If there is another job you wanted in the military now is your chance to get, however chance are it won't be available at your current duty station. You may want to see if there are any duty stations within a reasonable distance to see what opportunities the offer. Most if not all will pay travel pay and if necessary put you up in a hotel.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2017 3:09 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 15:09:31 -0400

I see that you are a Paralegal SPC, which has limited promotion potential pretty much everywhere.
BDE and higher typically will have a spot, maybe two for a 27D NCO. It is not a good MOS for career progression.
I think that for your career to progress, you will need to reclass at some point.
Now for that bonus, keep in mind that just because the Army CAN take away your bonus, doesn't mean they WILL. Your 27D MOS doesn't go away if you reclass, it just becomes a SMOS. It takes a deliberate pay action on the part of the commander to collect that money back.
If you reclass within your unit and pick up a promotion in that MOS, talk to your commander and see if he/she is willing to support you for career progression. If the answer is no, you need to look for another unit anyway. If the answer is yes, problem solved.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Aug 4 at 2017 7:14 PM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 19:14:44 -0400

Well, I don't know about the Army, but the Marine Corps will remove you if you aren't upward moving in the ranks. They might not give you the boot right away, but when it comes time to re-up, that package isn't being approved. They really enforce that once you hit E-5 though, because E-1 - E-4 you're either on your 1st or 2nd enlistment. But once you hit 10 years in, if you get passed over for promotion twice, you're basically done for.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2017 9:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 21:49:03 -0400

Awesome question! This isn't much an issue in the reserves, but I have heard horror stories about that in the National Guard. In the reservist world, I wouldn't see it as much of an issue if someone wasn't ready to move up. I don't want someone not ready or willing to move higher in the leadership be promoted and appointed over me. That being said, I believe that the National Guard should make it easier to move up and promote. If that means removing those who do not want to promote, then so be it. No reason to hold back the great Soldiers looking to advance because someone who doesn't have the drive to progress doesn't.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Aug 4 at 2017 10:02 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 22:02:44 -0400

I look at this in a couple ways. Our system is a meritocracy. We are raised to go for that next position, that next promotion. Either by way of a dim view of their abilities from low self confidence or a truly informed understanding of their shortfalls, some do not pursue leadership or promotion.

I had a case in a unit I commanded where a soldier who did not want the responsibility, was forced to board for E5. Points dropped to 450. Poof. Sergeant, on a deployment he was stop lossed into. He would later clash with his leadership and got his wish. Back to E4. No one won there.

I think what you do varies case to case. A bar to reenlist is certainly a tool. Clears things up quick. Admin reductions could be another. Real authentic communication with raters and senior raters and the rated soldier is important to figure out what next.

I understand this has a direct impact on others in the unit in the NG, but in he AD formations, you simply PCSnto a new opportunity.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2017 11:46 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 23:46:54 -0400

Based on what you said and the description you gave, what I think should be done is have the Army show that Soldier the door to assist them in seeking like elsewhere.

Response by MSgt Philip Ogiba made Aug 5 at 2017 10:58 AM

MSgt Philip Ogiba — Sat, 05 Aug 2017 10:58:11 -0400

Some people are happy at their position, and are also needed there. I believe promotion should be considered by performance, not by an unwillingness to move on.

Response by 1SG Donald Elmore made Aug 5 at 2017 11:27 AM

1SG Donald Elmore — Sat, 05 Aug 2017 11:27:54 -0400

I would say that the individual needs to be moved to a lower slot and if not promoted after a certain time, that individual not be allowed to re-enlist. I served in many slots above my pay grade and got promoted in a timely manner. I went to all classes that my Superiors wanted me to go to.

Response by 1SG Clifford Barnes made Aug 6 at 2017 10:04 AM

1SG Clifford Barnes — Sun, 06 Aug 2017 10:04:52 -0400

I feel that its the soldiers option.. Some soldiers enjoy their job and are happy whee they are. Promotions in that MOS are few and far between. I have that MOSand it was really hard. I have also met soldiers don't won't the responsibility that goes with higher rank. Talk to the individual and see there feelings. Being a retired 1SG and encourage all my soldiers to strive for bigger and better things in their career.

Response by CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) made Aug 7 at 2017 12:07 AM

CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 00:07:21 -0400

Soldiers who refuse to go to PME schools are chaptered out in my unit after two years - generally speaking. Sometimes there is a valid reason but outright refusal? Chaptered out.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Aug 7 at 2017 10:29 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 22:29:13 -0400

If the SM is not going to career progression schools by choice, then there are consequences for that choice. I have served under 1SG's that have deliberatly placed a junior SM over a senior one for a myriad of reasons, incompetentcy, failing to go to required schools, etc etc. Most 1SG's I have served under have an unwritten rule, decline or fail an NCOES school, and you will be offered it again when hell freezes over, or they change responsibility. Not to mention if your window opens for re-up, the commander would be recommended to not bless off on it. There is a form that the Commander has to sign prior to re enlistment that states his view on your retainablity.

Response by 1SG John Moffitt made Aug 8 at 2017 6:32 PM

1SG John Moffitt — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 18:32:49 -0400

Administrative reduction/RCP

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 2:05 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 14:05:19 -0400

initiate a packet to get him/her out.

Response by SFC James Heath made Aug 9 at 2017 4:33 PM

SFC James Heath — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 16:33:30 -0400

Council the soldier, brief the Commander and flag the soldier from reenlisting or promotion. That will free up the training slot for a deserving soldier.

Response by 1SG Kc Caulder made Aug 14 at 2017 10:05 AM

1SG Kc Caulder — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:05:41 -0400

I held the position of Battalion CSM as a MSG for almost a year, due to a shortage of E9s. I had TIG/TIR and all CivEd/MilEd prerequisites for promotion. So, once a suitable SGM was being located and being considered, I was given the option of extending and going to SMA or retire. I retired.

So, to answer the question: leadership roles being held by subordinate ranks should be displaced by the appropriate ranking soldiers when possible.

Response by SGT Charles Napierala made Aug 14 at 2017 3:38 PM

SGT Charles Napierala — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 15:38:47 -0400

In my very humble opinion, I feel that the 'up or out' mentality the military takes is the wrong approach. It's a fairly simple concept to understand that some people just don't make good leaders. Some people enjoy doing the job that they're currently doing, fulfilling their responsibilities and duties honorably, and are good at what they do. Why can't we expand on the skill sets that these soldiers have instead of forcing them out of their position and kicking them out the door?

I feel that army needs to offer each soldier the same opportunities to advance themselves. If these soldiers aren't looking to advance and aren't looking to leave their position, then they should be passed over and the next readily available soldier should be given the same opportunity.

Retention may start to become an issue though and we might run into a handful of soldiers that find a sweet spot and twiddle their thumbs and collect a check. To mitigate this, when a soldier is eligible for BLC, ALC, or whichever advancement classes and passes the opportunity up, then a retention watch needs to be put on this soldier. Annually, a board, or review can be held that analyzes the improvements these soldiers have made in their skills, the improvements these soldiers have offered to the military, or the achievements these soldiers have made as individuals for the company. Did they obtain any banners? Did the compete in any competitions for the company? You feel me? If they're sitting stagnant, then they need to be removed. Similar to the privatized sector.

Response by 1SG Jesus Lopez made Aug 14 at 2017 8:29 PM

1SG Jesus Lopez — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:29:48 -0400

That's why COUNSELING is important, you can send somebody home, YES, for lack of performance.

Response by 1SG Scott Ferris made Aug 19 at 2017 12:07 PM

1SG Scott Ferris — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 12:07:48 -0400

Said sm should have a paper trail so that sm can be processed out. Sounds like you have a dud and a cancer, and should be removed. Sounds like you have a sub standard soldier

Response by SP5 Norman McGill made Aug 19 at 2017 5:07 PM

SP5 Norman McGill — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 17:07:50 -0400

The CO could transfer that person but if that person is really good at what he does then he will probably stay there until he gets out. Or you could transfer to another place that moves faster. Remember that regs say you have to have time in grade for promotion but nothing says that you get promoted just because you have time in grade.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 20 at 2017 3:26 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 15:26:23 -0400

Their are time limits for all grades, there should be no issue. If a Soldiers fails to attend a required NCO development program there are many actions that can be taken to fix the issue, in the end it will be time that gets them.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2017 5:14 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Aug 2017 17:14:20 -0400

Find out the issue if there is none transfer them out! Soldiers want to move forward so stand up step up or get outta my way!

Response by 1SG Dale Cantrell made Sep 7 at 2017 11:02 AM

1SG Dale Cantrell — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 11:02:01 -0400

I have seen 20yr E-4s, they will do their job, you just have to be told several times. Somebody had to be a E-4. Just stay in shape .

Response by 1SG Duane Sundstrom made Sep 10 at 2017 3:16 PM

1SG Duane Sundstrom — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 15:16:04 -0400

Yes, some people are great following orders, but are not very good at giving orders, especially in combat

Response by 1SG Gary Bacon made Sep 18 at 2017 10:03 PM

1SG Gary Bacon — Mon, 18 Sep 2017 22:03:29 -0400

The more mos you have, the better for promotion. I had 3. Made promotions available, although it csn require changing units.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2017 3:14 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:14:02 -0400

In AD, If the SM is basically stagnant-and has shown no interest in bettering themselves-then a bar to continued service may be warranted.