What does it mean that the chapter process for APFT failure has started?

Bucky Daniels — Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:15:02 -0400

My son is 20 years old and has been active Army for over a year, 68W if it makes a difference. He's a good, smart kid but he doesn't have a lot of life experience and tends to go with the flow more than he should rather than asking the right questions to make sure that he understands what's going on. He has failed two, maybe even three, record APFT. He's actually in pretty good physical shape and has no trouble with the push ups or sit ups but can't complete the run due to extreme knee pain. To his credit, I can vouch for the fact that he has had knee pain while playing high school football for years. At the direction of the recruiter, this wasn't disclosed at enlistment. He tells me that the chapter process was started well over a month ago after the second failure. He has dragged his feet in going to be medically evaluated and also missed an earlier scheduled appointment due to being in the field. He was finally evaluated recently and referred for physical therapy. When asked by the physician if he wanted to be put on profile, my son told him no because as he later told me, "I don't want everyone thinking I'm an even bigger piece of shit."

His goal is to stay in for the remainder of his tour. Given his situation, would he probably have been better off asking to be put on profile? Am I wrong in thinking that without it, he's still going to be doing whatever PT his unit is doing and also will still have to retake the APFT if it's offered to him, all the while he's not any more likely to pass and is probably doing more damage to his knees than therapy is going to help?

Also, what happens now that the chapter process has started? Am I wrong that the only thing that could stop the chapter process is him passing the APFT? So if the chapter gets completed before he is diagnosed and treated, he's just out of luck? What's his best course of action at this point to try and keep himself enlisted?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2019 4:27 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:27:51 -0400

Keeping quiet about his knee pain? Not smart.
Wants to stay in but refuses a profile due to stigma? Not smart.
Dragging his feet with medical evaluations? Not smart.

The best chance your son has is to get his knees evaluated and see if he is eligible for a P2 (permanent) profile. If he is, and gets one, he can take the alternate cardio event for the APFT. While the Chapter is in it's process (and it's a lengthy process), if he takes a Record APFT and passes, his Commander can elect to recall the Chapter. If the Commander recalls the Chapter, then he will be good to go (as long as he continues to pass the APFT). If he doesn't get the permanent before the Chapter is complete, then yes he will be just plain out of luck and he will be packing his bags. Also, with no profile, and Chapter pending, he will continue to do normal PRT with his unit...causing further injury to his knee(s). Which is REALLY NOT SMART.

So....his best course of action is to suck up his pride (because his pride is literally killing his time in the military), get his knee evaluated and get a permanent profile in order to pass his test and hope the commander rescinds the Chapter.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2019 5:03 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:03:20 -0400

Your son is not a kid, he's an adult. He made the adult decision to forego being placed on profile and having the option of taking an alternate event for his APFT. As a medic, he is especially aware of this fact, and it's especially easy for him to meet with the provider and get a profile while he recovers.

Now that the chapter process has started and he has no documented medical issues with his knee because he refused a profile, he will likely be separated. That is, unless he is referred to a med board, at which point he will still be separated, but medically.

The other option is that he goes and passes his APFT after getting evaluated. Good person or not, the Army will not retain people who can't pass their APFT repeatedly

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2019 6:04 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Sep 2019 18:04:55 -0400

Honestly I think it would be easier to give feedback on this if I spoke to him directly. I have sciatica and it began in AIT and destroyed my run time by 6+ minutes. I refused a profile so i didn't be seeing as incapable and I didnt tell my instructors so they didnt kick me out (the fear of just joining). Long story cut off and now short....he needs a profile among other things.

But in all honesty if you'd like to message me I can give some advice and I dont mind speakjng with your son too. If he wants in then he needs a plan, otherwise the plans already in the works to get him booted.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 11 at 2019 6:27 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 11 Sep 2019 18:27:47 -0400

Sometimes soldiers make the situation worse by not owning up to profiles.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Sep 11 at 2019 10:09 PM

SSG Brian G. — Wed, 11 Sep 2019 22:09:58 -0400

Ok, first? Your son is not a child. He made that decision to lie on his application. But we will look over that for now.

He's failed a record APFT. Which means that at that time he was barred from re-enlisting, a second failure means that the chapter process has started. Now, should he have sucked it up, no matter how it looked and gone to the DR and gotten a profile? Yes. It might have helped him. MIGHT. But it is too late at this point.

The ONLY thing that will help him is IF he can convince his Commander to allow him to retake the APFT and IF he passes it. Even then? The Commander does not have to put paperwork in to reverse the chapter or remove the flag. The Commander CAN, but your son has to convince him or her that he is not a waste of the Armys time and thus far that has not been the case.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Sep 12 at 2019 4:26 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Thu, 12 Sep 2019 04:26:27 -0400

Your son failed to disclose important medical issues to the Army. If he withheld information, he did so knowingly and as an adult.

The reason there is a fitness test is to ensure that Soldiers retain the foundational level of fitness required to handle the rigors of combat. Bad knees and ruck sacks don’t mix. His only recourse is to come clean and see if his knees are treatable (he has the right to seek medical evaluation). Whether or not the Army retains him should, his condition be treatable is up to certain regulations and policies, it is not based on him as an individual.

The Army, whose job it is to fight Wars, has rules of conduct as well, without them the military would be an unruly band of individuals instead of a cohesive Team of Warriors.

I am sorry to say (for you, not your son) that he lied to the Army on more than one occasion. He needs to come clean and see if his conduct, other than fitness since he entered service is good enough for the Army to determine he is physically and ethically fit to serve. Mom, he is a Man!

Response by Bucky Daniels made Sep 12 at 2019 11:14 AM

Bucky Daniels — Thu, 12 Sep 2019 11:14:47 -0400

I continue to welcome any additional replies to my original post. I would also like to express my appreciation for each and every piece of advice offered here. It has certainly helped me to understand the situation better.

As a follow-up I would ask one more question...
Assuming this situation reaches the point of actual discharge and understanding that the final decision is made well up the chain, does anyone have any thoughts regarding the typical characterization of discharge for failure of APFT? Is there anything that my son can do to influence the characterization of his potential discharge?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2019 3:02 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Sep 2019 15:02:00 -0400

Should have taken the profile. Once the process is started, there is little that can be done to stop it other than passing an APFT or getting referred to a med board which will also most likely result in him getting chaptered. The only benefit is that with med board his discharge will be medical instead of failure to pass APFT.