What does your TIS, TIG say about you?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 15:30:19 -0500

<div>I have a feeling Im going to strike some nerves! </div><div><br></div>Over the past month or two, especially with the new RCP coming out, I have seen an increase in SGTs (E-5)who have 15-20 yrs TIS complaining. While I am aware that not all situations are the same, I have to ask why are you still an E5 after so many years?<div><br></div><div>Most of the cases were SMs complaining that they could not make points. Many said that they had never been injured, demoted, flagged, or any adverse action. How is it possible, assuming they are good soldiers as they claim, to go 15- 20 years and not advance past E5?  <br></div><div><br></div><div>We have so many ways of "judging" good SMs by their accomplishments on paper. Is it safe to assume that these NCOs are not good NCOs? Again I know this is a case by case basis, but if an NCO has no negative action against them why would a good NCO not be promoted one rank in 10 years when the selection criteria is based on your performance and is basically in your hands?</div><div><br></div><div>With NCO of the month boards being 99% voluntary, deployments now producing points by themselves plus a possible award, weapons and PT individual events, college education an individual event, is this the SMs lack of drive or is it a mentoring/leadership issue? While not entirely up to you ALC is worth a minimum 90 points also. If you cant attend and complete ALC in 10 year stretch are you truly a good NCO?</div><div><br></div><div>My MOS points were 798 before I joined and for a while after I joined. I was always mentored to not look at that number, do what I needed to do as a soldier and separate myself from my peers be the best at my job. If points never dropped I would eventually have 798,  and if they drop lower so be it. I have numerous friends who are fuelers and their points hardly ever drop below 660, yet their drive and determination to be a proficient leader has gotten them promoted. I dont see any MOS where points stay at 798 for 5 years, most dont stay there for even 1 year straight. What is the wrong with these SGT(P) that they cant make points in a 10 year stretch if they have no negative actions or physical limitations?</div><div><br></div><div>I have always been a little more critical on my peers than my subordinates when it comes to promotions, maybe that is my skewed view on things. I am harder on them because I am them and I know what the struggle is for this rank at this time. Id just like an outside perspective on why we have so many willing to complain, but not willing to do what it takes to advance. </div><div><br></div><div>* I must point out that MOST of the SMs complaining were close to retirement/ETS or already had retired or ETSd, so they are not actually affected by the new RCP or the old, but were complaining its not fair for good NCOs that just cant make points*</div><div><br></div><div>If it is not already clear, lol, I dont think there is any excuse for a healthy NCO with no adverse action to not make points after 10-15 years TIG as a SGT!</div><div><br></div><div>FMSA, Id be interested to hear both sides, the ones who think RCP is unfair to certain NCOs and why, also the ones who agree there is no excuse to not progress in a semi central selection rank at least once in 15-20 years.</div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2014 3:36 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 15:36:30 -0500

Mine probably raises questions about why I have been in so long, and still a SSG. I enjoyed my time as an E-1 thru E-4. Once I made SGT, I endured a 10 yr divorce which took place throughout 3 deployments and cost me wayyy too much money. Once I was able to get passed that I was able to focus on my career and made my way up to SSG. When I was on the trail I was the VICTIM of a B.S. complaint by a PVT and received a bad NCOER for it but not to mention my 1SG was a bit on the racist side and as the acting BN CSM he pushed it right up thru BDE... smh. So, here I am still a SSG. My performance doesn't reflect why I am still a SSG with my TIS/ TIG because I have had to go thru my own ordeals while trudging along... oh well, We shall see what happens

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2014 3:36 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 15:36:45 -0500

I have seen a few SGTs (E-5) who had been SGTs for around 10 years. I don't know their reasons why, but have always had the same question.

For me, I was a SPC for 5 1/2 years. The first time I was eligible for promotion, I was taken off the Promotion Board MOI because I got selected for OCS. The CSM's reasoning was that if I was going to be an Officer, then I didn't need to be promoted to an NCO rank in his BN. During my second deployment, despite winning Soldier of the Month, BN Soldier of the Quarter, and placing 3rd (out of 9) at the Brigade Soldier of the Quarter Boards, I was told that I "wasn't ready." It wasn't until we redeployed and got a new 1SG who directed that all eligible SPCs be sent to the board unless there was some substantial and quantifiable shortcoming. For me, that illustrated the polar differences in good and bad leadership.

I have been a SGT for a little over a year, and am anxiously awaiting the March cut-offs and by-name lists. I am confident that I will make SSG in March!

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2014 4:04 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 16:04:22 -0500

Sometimes there are situations beyond your control. One small thing or a lack of good leadership/mentorship can derail a career, not to mention going through a MEB. During that time no matter what you do, you are considered garbage and told that no one has time for you, as there are other Soldiers that still have a career to look forward to. I just hit my 10 yr TIS in an overstrength MOS and unable to reclass. Sometimes Stuff happens and all you can do is be patient.

Until I can PCS and get a new MOS, I'm stuck.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2014 6:16 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 18:16:41 -0500

SGT Blackburn,

I will go ahead and be the one to agree with you. A lot of people want to talk about how high points are and how many senior positions are open. That may be true but people always leave. They retire, they ETS, they get kicked out for misconduct or they get QMP out. If you place yourself in the right position you should not hold E4 or E5 for 10-15 years. My MOS also has high points, my MOS is also a small MOS with less slots than others. That is why I tracked the trend report and ensured that I was the top guy in my MOS. The month I got promoted to SSG I knew either one of two things was going to happen. Either no one was getting picked up or I was. Because I had the most points. Sure enough they promoted 1 that month. It was me.

As a SSG that is not chasing points any more I just attended the BN NCO of the quarter board because it was not important to any of the E5s in my company. All promotable, all over 8 years TIS, all complain about not getting promoted, and none of them go to the board, take more than one PT test every 6 months or go to the range to get a better score.

Yes some Soldiers have done everything they possibly can to get promoted and the stars just don't align for them. They are the minority; the majority of Soldiers with huge TIS/TIG just don't want to put in the work to get promoted. They just want to complain and hope things work out for them.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2014 7:23 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 19:23:21 -0500

Sometimes it's hard and chance plays a role, but the individual is often the determining factor. I had a very solid 18 year TIS Sergeant E-5 that was medically retired prior to the old SGT (P) RCP. His answers were a hernia that prevented maxing the APFT and a lack of college education. I actually really liked the guy and learned a lot.

In all honesty, if you spend 20 years in the service and didn't manage to make SSG while remaining promotable the whole time, then you honestly did not meet the standard for being a SSG or better within 20 years.

Sucks for the individual, but the Army is an institution that must make mission and if you are not advancing how the Army wants you to then there is a time to call it quits for the sake of the institution.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 5:43 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:43:51 -0500

outstanding!! SSounds like you've sat in a proponent briefing our two. Yes, the math works all the way down. There are only SO MANY OF EACH RANK , private to sgm, at one time. Points can be points all day, but if they're are no authorizations, DA can't simply make new ones (adjust the points, so to say).. those are set by congress based off budget. You can disagree all day, but I've worked the job, and am very familiar with how promotions work. Why do you think some ppl ARE MAXED OUT ON POINTS BUT NEVER GET PROMOTED? ,I know some of these guys..and its usually the smaller MOSs that are more greatly affected...but at the end of the day, every rank is affected. And I.never said it was everyone that isn't getting promoted....some are lazy. But until I worked that job and got an understanding of how big army decodes who and how many will get promoted and why...I used to think it was just points too . But we learn and grow as we work different positions and levels.

Response by SSG Christopher Freeman made Feb 19 at 2014 9:26 PM

SSG Christopher Freeman — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 21:26:18 -0500

My TIS/TIG sometimes works against me. just over 6 years TIS and 3 months TIG. I made 6 in just under 6 and I get looks sometimes because I don't look as old as most SSGs do (no offense to anyone). To me, it speaks to my dedication to go big or go home. When people give me slack about my time, I speak of my accomplishments in 6 years.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2014 8:57 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Mar 2014 20:57:19 -0400

SGT Blackbum,
I know this question is more than a month but I felt the need to comment because I too have wondered the same thing. I joined the Army in 2007 made SGT in 2010 and made SSG in 2011. One thing that I can say that has motivated me through my career is the words of my recruiter and now lifelong friend "There is no such thing as trying, either you are doing it or your not, its as simple as that." With that being said I recently had a SGT under me that had been in the Army going on thirteen years and when I did my initial counseling I asked her where she stood in regards to promotion. She made the claim that her previous leadership had failed her, not allowed her to go to schools, and even interfered with her civilian education. I told her as long as you pass height & weight and pass the APFT you will get the schools you need and I would do everything within my power to ensure she was ready for the next level. The SGT in question did have an issue with both weight and APFT and she would go from barely failing or barely passing. I made it a point to have the whole section do remedial PT to not only help motivate her but to ensure everyone would be capable of passing the APFT and tape if necessary. Long story short I helped that SGT improve from a 183 APFT score to a 229 and lose 6% on her tape. While all this was going on I gave the SGT tips on how to manage her schedule get back to college online and ensure she completed ALC CC and the resident course. The SGT morale improved greatly and within my time as her NCOIC she was selected for SSG. I say all that to say this sometimes Soldier's need that extra push from their leaders to get them to the next level. Whether its physical readiness, military training, or academics once you put the stripes on your chest you are a 24/7 mentor to your peers, subordinates, and sometimes even to those senior to you. As far as things being fair goes....nothing in life is fair. RCP is tool to not only shape the force but to thin the herd of those who MAY have exhausted all their potential benefit to the Army. If a Soldier finds themselves in a MOS that promotion points are always high then look at the in/out calls, look into re-classing into a low strength MOS, work to improve their GT/ST scores so they can qualify for other MOS's, they need to get outside of their comfort zone. As my mother always said "where there is a will there is a way." So yes there will be good NCO's and Soldiers removed from the ranks as a result of RCP and they can blame whoever they want but they would have to first look in the mirror and ask themselves did they truly give all that they could give or no? A majority of my peers that I went to basic and AIT with are still E4's or newly promoted SGT's. The reason for that is they spent the first few years in the military partying, not finishing their college, and basically didnt have their focus on their career. So yes every situation may be different but the underlying message is the same and thats they didnt take the initiative to properly manage and plan their career. RCP will also get rid of those NCO's and Soldiers who are toxic and disruptive to the good order and discipline of the Army. They are the ones who have the DUI's, investigations that were founded, cant pass the APFT or HGT/WGT. The list is endless just look at the recent news in regards to the over 5,000 SSG that wont get looked at for SFC because they dont have SSD-3 done. We have known for years it would be a promotion requirement but those 5,000 SSG didnt take the initiative and when the Army hands them a pink slip be the first to say something is unfair. So again take everything with a grain of salt. Yes good NCO's and Soldiers will fall victim to RCP because those of above them wouldnt step down or they werent properly informed about reclassing options or whatever but again no one will manage your career better than your self. Its up to you to do the research and ask questions. There will also be those that need to be removed from service due to poor morale, leadership, lack of initiative, etc. Im in favor of RCP its QSP that Im not in favor of. Thats the one where a good quality soldier can get the boot and have no real control in the matter.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2021 10:07 AM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 May 2021 10:07:11 -0400

When the army put in place the centralized promoting system, they needed a way to promote soldiers based on their work outside of combat since a lot of soldiers in garrison couldn't recieve battlefield promotions. Some points can be accrued simply by the work of the soldier( ie. Pt, weapons, college, ect.) However if you're looking down to barrel of a 798 point requirement, those simply aren't enough. I feel a lot of soldiers hit that tipping point with awards because their units do anything they can to write them up. This works if your unit cares enough about you. But my last unit rode me hard and put me away wet. After two years of hard service on multiple missions, I barely walked away with an single aam and I had to buy my own metal. My orderly room simply printed out my citation and handed it to me. My current unit has been no different. I'm not here to complain because my story is not unique. But I think there is something to say about the correlation in points and the attention paid to a soldiers hard work.