What if as a Leader you made an important decision and your CSM below you or Commander above you challenged it?

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:57:29 -0400

Have you ever been in a situation where you have made a decision and it was then challenged by your Command Sergeant Major, Sergeant Major, or Staff?

Have you ever made a command decision that was challenged by your immediate Commander or superior above you?

What happened and how did you deal with it as a leader?

I've been challenged on several occasions! I'll share my experience with you below in a response!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2016 6:05 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 18:05:12 -0400

Being a leader is just that we as leaders deal with situations daily that we have to make decisions based on the information given. Now that comes with a cost because you have to stand by your decision and if challenged have the reason for your decision usually doesn't matter the ranking you explain the situation and usually they understand or give you alternate solutions that what leadership is

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Jul 23 at 2016 6:08 PM

MSgt John McGowan — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 18:08:55 -0400

Sir. As the Branch Chief I didn't take their advise to get a piece of equipment out of supply for a large aircraft movement through to base. I was told in so many words that I better have the equipment ready when needed. I didn't get the extra equipment and the aircraft had the equipment ready to make the move on time. My payback was QC hit my branch like a ton of brick and got a little carried away with write-up's. Two weeks later they were laughing about it. Once i made the call I had to stick with it. I also had to prove my point.

Response by PO3 Steven Stinnett made Jul 23 at 2016 6:28 PM

PO3 Steven Stinnett — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 18:28:15 -0400

Interesting comment, when I was a Correctional Counselor, I had an inmate on my case-load for five (5) years, he requested permission to work at the Dairy outside the wall, I denied him for five years, he and his father both in prison, both escape risks. The Captain (supervisor) over-ruled my decision and permitted him to work at the Dairy. Three days later he and his father escaped from California, went to Iowa and robbed a few banks before getting caught once again, both Career Criminals.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Jul 23 at 2016 7:09 PM

SSgt Boyd Welch — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 19:09:03 -0400

When I was a shop NCO, I was directed to take over the evening shift crew. Worst attendance, highest avionics failure rate and lowest morale. They assigned the "undesirables" to this shift which was straight evenings. Airmen on evenings never got to see their wives or kids. My first meeting was an incentive meeting. I told the crew that if we completed all work on time with no failures, I would let someone go home early. Over the next six weeks, absenteeism went to less than 1%. LRU failure rates decreased and morale improved to the point where we were exercising together. My challenge came when my shop chief chewed me out for allowing people to not work their full shift. I made the right call even though the senior NCO disagreed.

Response by CSM Michael Sweeney made Jul 23 at 2016 7:49 PM

CSM Michael Sweeney — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 19:49:52 -0400

I can only respond to the CSM challenging a Commanders decision. Not publicly I assume. Also, I am assuming the assigned CSM would only privately challenge the commander AFTER THE FACT if he or she had not been asked their advice before the policy or decision was made. Granted I have been retired for nearly a career (17 years), but I doubt that things have changed that much in this respect. I had a few one on one professional discussions with the Commanders I was assigned to as their Senior Enlisted Advisor. I was allowed to candidly provide my input. Sometimes also with XO's and Officer staff present. When a decision was made or a policy directed, it became mine as well, even if I disagreed. I didn't leave the office pouting and talk negative about it or the process. If soldiers or others grumbled, I never talked about our personal discussions, I enforced the decisions or policies. I was proud to have been asked, listened to and be able to contribute. Truth is, there were more than a few decisions reached that I agreed with because of my input or perspective than what I disagreed with. Note: My definition of Command Sergeant Major was a Sergeant Major OF the Command, NOT a Sergeant Major IN Command.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2016 8:16 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 20:16:22 -0400

I haven't had an issue as a leader, as I've never officially been a leader (I've had other junior enlisted come to me for mentorship as they respected my experience), but I've had the issue of leadership giving me a mission but not specific instructions, or partial instructions with the option of doing xyz, and after the fact questioning why I did it the way I did (ARGH, either tell me to do it and leave me alone, or tell me HOW to do it in detailed instructions). I simply told them that I did things the way I found effective within my skill set as they did not give me specific instructions/phrased it in a way that I understood that it was up to me if I was going to do it or not and it was not required.

I'll be honest, when I see senior leadership challenge lower leadership, when it gives the appearance of being for the sake of challenging, it undermines the lower leadership and makes me lose respect for the higher leadership. ESPECIALLY when it comes down in a micromanaging manner or in an aggressive manner in front of the juniors. Sometimes higher ups overriding the subordinates can't be helped, and it helps if it can be justified (it conflicts with regulation, mission needs, orders from even higher up, etc) whenever possible, but sometimes the senior leadership needs to let leaders lead. When it happens frequently without any explanation, it makes it worse.

The phrase "Don't question orders, just follow them" gets taken too literal a lot sometimes, our Servicemembers are not robots, it's one thing to not question orders during a combat engagement, or to just follow orders like PMCSing a vehicle. But we are all intelligent beings with the ability to improve the success of missions if we are able to question stuff and give input, and sometimes the higher ups don't have the first clue of what the reality of some situations are, yet want to assert their authority.

Response by CSM David Heidke made Jul 23 at 2016 8:38 PM

CSM David Heidke — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 20:38:28 -0400

You and your CSM are a Command Team.

You say he/she is below you.

I assume your CSM challenged you because you didn't seek his counsel. Also, I doubt he did it in public.

And if your Commander challenged you about it or both of them did, perhaps you should have run it by someone first.

I've never had a Commander say I was "below" him.

I have nothing to fear Colonel, I'm never getting promoted again. If you're doing the wrong thing, I'm going to tell you. Whether you want to hear it or not. If you then decide to proceed, I'll support you as I am supposed to.

Response by LTC Trent Klug made Jul 23 at 2016 9:22 PM

LTC Trent Klug — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 21:22:43 -0400

Had a Soldier fall under the Lautenberg Amendment. Was told to counsel him and transfer him to the Battalion HQ.

I counseled him. Found out he and his lawyer were in the process of getting it expunged. I counseled him and put in writing that he would stay with the unit and that I would not allow him to be transferred out. Fireworks ensued.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2016 1:09 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jul 2016 01:09:55 -0400

What if? My question to you is which time? Often times it was because they were ignorant to a change in the situation that required a decision that they were not expecting. Once they were updated on the current situation, they were fat, dumb and happy again or at least they understood why the decision was made.

If it was a major decision, if time allowed, I would run it up the flagpole. Operative phrase being "if time allowed"

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2016 3:25 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jul 2016 15:25:25 -0400

I know my experience is still relatively new with Army leadership (one year as a SGT, compared to what I assume is a 20+ year commission with you sitting at COL), but, for what it's worth, sir...

I've seen officers ignore the objections and advice of those above and below them with positive results, and with career ending results. If I found myself in your position, I would start by asking why the objections were being made. If the objections seemed reasonable, logical, and understandable, then I'd consider adjusting fire, and take the input from my subordinates, peers and superiors and use it as a learning point. It I could not justify their objections even after taking a moment to place myself in their shoes, I'd stick to my guns, be prepared to handle any consequences that resulted from my decision, and still continue to take the input from subordinates, peers and superiors for learning purposes. I'd also do my best to be keenly aware of my resources available.

Another member (A CSM, I believe) made a point which I wish to respectfully echo - your CSM is a member of your team. He has hit essentially the peak of his career, and is the most likely individual within your entire team to give you a no BS assessment of a given situation. As such, it would probably be more beneficial to see him as a peer, despite the differences between enlisted and officer ranks. I note this also because he's also likely to be the first person to have your back, even if he disagrees with you, unless you've royally messed up in a way that causes him to question your ability to be effective in your role as a commander.

Again, sir, my .02 for what it's worth, and no disrespect intended.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2016 10:37 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jul 2016 22:37:02 -0400

As a SRNCO, a portion of my job is to be an advisor to the Commander. At the end of the day, it is the Commanders decision and he/she will reap the what ever comes from that decision. Our job has never been to be "yes men" and my loyalty is to do right by the Army first. If your CSM, SGM, Staff, or higher HQ CDR "challenged you", I think the first thing you should do is relook your decision, your probably on a slippery slope.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2016 1:23 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jul 2016 01:23:17 -0400

As a squadron commander, I expected my Chief and First Sergeant to challenge my decisions (in private) if they disagreed. Well, in reality, I generally discussed with them ahead of time as I valued their advice. More than 9 times out of 10, we agreed.

I did have a deputy group commander disagree with a disciplinary action I took on a member, and he told the member so. I violently disagreed with his doing this, and told him so. In private.

I agree with picking your battles. It better be really important to publicly disagree, and you need to be willing to accept the consequences. But if it's the right thing to do, do it.

Response by MAJ Michael Pauling made Aug 1 at 2016 9:59 AM

MAJ Michael Pauling — Mon, 01 Aug 2016 09:59:28 -0400

While Company Commander of an MPC in the Guard, I was told by my 0-6 BDE CDR, he wanted me to replace my 1SG (of over 2 years in service) becuase he failed the APFT by 2 sit ups while attending ANCOC with a different NCO who was unknown to me, new to the Unit and was fired for cause as a 1SG while on Deployment OCONUS. The COL thought that this other NCO deserved a second chance at 1SG Slot. I told the 0-6 I would not do it unless ordered so by him. I pointed out that my 1SG is one of the reasons my Unit was 180% strength, had high optempo and well regarded in the BDE as "the" Unit to be a part of. To remove him for a single failure would be detrimental to morale and bond between Commander and NCO's of the Unit. The 0-6 replied it angered him that I would not voluntarily make the change but he did not want to make it an order as it was my Unit my Command my decision. This 0-6 later went on to Star land and we still keep in touch as he respected the fact that I could disagree with him and not be easliy swayed by the Collar Holler from above on doing what I thought was best for my Unit.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 4:47 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 16:47:14 -0400

If you haven't you probably never made any of the hard decisions.

How to deal with it? Explain yourself (though not in every case) and then move on.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 7:43 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 19:43:57 -0400

I listen very-very closely to my senior-enlisted men and women... I trust the disagreement would be aired privately.. either way, I look closely at the disagreement and evaluate my reasoning for the decision... If I believe my path is still true, I share my perspective and reasons with my senior enlisted members and trust them to follow my decision. If I see error in my path (which has happened, and I'm grateful for my NCOs and SNCOs for speaking up), I admit my error, thank the person correcting me and I adjust accordingly. It's really not that hard for me to admit I'm wrong -- nearly 22 years of marriage has taught me a lot about humility because I can count on one hand the number of times my bride has been wrong... and I'm probably wrong about those...

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 3 at 2016 7:59 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 19:59:15 -0400

Public / Private issue.

Commanders have Staff to expand their expertise and cover their blind spots. In the case of CSMs, he is the Senior Enlisted Advisor. Every Commander has one, in some fashion, whether it be a PSG, 1SG, or CSM. Most Staff Officers have their Staff Chiefs as well.

A Commander needs the best information to make decisions. If he is missing a piece of "Contextual Information" it can lead to an "incorrect" decision. ANYONE who has that contextual information, and knows about the decision and its potential repercussions has an obligation to route it up the chain so that the Commander can reevaluate said decision, so it is at least "informed." We fight battles from positions of Knowledge, not Ignorance.

"Challenging" a decision is just a fancy way of saying providing new information. Unfortunately, it might be "too late."

Response by SA Jim Arnold made Aug 4 at 2016 11:05 AM

SA Jim Arnold — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 11:05:48 -0400

I've been a drifter for over 20 yrs. Living my life free, has been both amazing and tormenting.
If you don't let go and live free, your stories get boring and you'll get old, quicker than expected

Response by COL Herbert Holeman made Aug 4 at 2016 2:30 PM

COL Herbert Holeman — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 14:30:24 -0400

I concur with CSM Sweeney.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Aug 4 at 2016 2:52 PM

SPC Byron Skinner — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 14:52:55 -0400

Sp4 Byron Skinner…I guess this is something that depends on when and where. In CONUS garrison see Lt..Col. Clements…If you are i a combat situation it s definitely different. The senior OIC definitely should consult with the soldiers last in the area. I can recall a Lt. Colonel who had decided to sen a convoy that the troopers who had bee on patrols and night ambushes and saw foot prints and other evidence knew the area at a critical stretch of road was infested with NAV… The convoy was sent, and the intelligence for the ranks was ignored. I was in the sent over form another platoon to fill in for missing personal due to combat injuries and vehicles damaged or destroyed in engagements the previous week we were the point track… We got hit, the Platoon that was leading the convoy escort and had primary responsibility for the convoy had four KIA's and monist of the Platoon was wounded including the Platoon leader. All of the Platoons NCO's were wounded to the extent they were executed stateside and never returned to duty. As for that ring know Lt. Col., he would retire as a Colonel…The moral of the story is good officers of all ranks should pay attention to their troopers and not on intelligence from up above.

Response by COL Dale Dahlke made Aug 4 at 2016 7:28 PM

COL Dale Dahlke — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 19:28:28 -0400

I had a few times when my CSM took me aside and recommended/suggested a different approach.

Response by 1SG Perry Jefferies made Aug 4 at 2016 8:49 PM

1SG Perry Jefferies — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 20:49:42 -0400

Be ready to defend it privately and, as long as ethical issues were not compromised, be ready to re-priortize.

Response by SSG Drew Cook made Aug 5 at 2016 12:28 PM

SSG Drew Cook — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 12:28:54 -0400

I always tactfully make sure the Commander understands who the subject matter expert is, and then I relent if he or she insists, since it's on them anyway.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2016 1:10 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Aug 2016 01:10:00 -0400

1st I would not have made an important decision without discussing it with my Sr enlisted advisor. If we finished discussing it and still didn't agree I would bring in more advisors including the platoon and section leaders who would be most affected.

If my commander challenged a decision I made I would explain why I made that decision and if we still didn't agree I would do it their way. If their way was unethical, illegal, or immoral I would go over their head.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2016 2:41 AM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Aug 2016 02:41:10 -0400

Honestly, I'd stick to my decision and use facts to support it. If it were my decision to make and my leadership and subordinates trusted me, it shouldn't be an issue. However, I believe a good leader makes decisions with the help of his trusted advisors and the support of his wardroom or enlisted-mess. Always use the chain, up and down, to support your decisions.

I'm a lower enlisted man, so perhaps I am the wrong person to be answering this question, but I've had the unique opportunity to serve closely with both junior and senior officers, and a boss that constantly questions my decision and rational (right or wrong) in order to shape me into a better and more confident leader.

Response by CH (COL) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2016 10:31 PM

CH (COL) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 22:31:23 -0500

Yep. Briefing an OPLAN to the CG. The G-3 and the CoS tore into the plan. The division commander told them that I (then a CPT) was right and that we would execute my plan. It didn't work out so well in the long run for me but my work is still Army doctrine and being taught about 25 years later. I ended up on my feet and moved on to greater things. As you can see, it didn't kill me.

Response by SSgt Keith Foster made Mar 6 at 2017 11:17 PM

SSgt Keith Foster — Mon, 06 Mar 2017 23:17:05 -0500

Listen to his reasoning and his suggestions for an alternative and consider them.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2017 10:28 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Mar 2017 10:28:46 -0500

If you can't justify your decision with sound reason, it was probably not the right decision in the first place. Good leaders are willing to accept when they are wrong. Great leaders are willing to admit it.

Response by SFC Don Vance made Mar 7 at 2017 10:34 AM

SFC Don Vance — Tue, 07 Mar 2017 10:34:39 -0500

As an Military Police SFC my last assignment was as the Battalion S-1 NCO. I was in Mannheim and our Battalion had six line companies and a headquarters unit. I was given the assignment because the S-1 was broken and I wasn't able to carry a weapon for at least a year due to surgery on my wrist. The objection that I got was from the SSG that I was taking the job from. What I observed in the first three days in the position told me that the soldiers hadn't proper supervision in a long time. After discussing my findings and planned corrective actions with the S-1 Officer, I instituted several changes that the soldiers didn't like. The SSG complained to the CPT that I was being too harsh. He informed her that all changes met with his approval and he sent her back to work.
Oh, the biggest changes that they didn't like? They had to be at their desk working at 0900 hrs and didn't leave until 1700 hrs just like the rest of the battalion. And they only got an hour for lunch not 90 minutes like they had been taking. By implementing these changes and a few others the section began passing inspections and receiving complements and awards within 90 days.

Response by GySgt David Weihausen made Mar 7 at 2017 10:46 AM

GySgt David Weihausen — Tue, 07 Mar 2017 10:46:44 -0500

I can only respond from my experiences. I had a active duty SgtMaj trying to get rid of a reserve SgtMaj. When I pointed out that he didn't have that authority or ability by regulation, it put me on his hit list. I stood by my convictions and never lost a minute of sleep over it. If you are doing what's right for the right reason, that's all you need worry about. Semper Fidelis.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2017 11:54 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Mar 2017 11:54:04 -0500

My job as a Senior NCO is to get the work/training done using the least amount of resources, and still get the most out of the work/training completed. During my last active duty assignment at Ft. Lewis-McChord, WA as the Battalion S4 for the LDAC mission in 2012 I was in conflict with my CSM and unit Commander many times due to the fact that I felt that on certain missions I could get things accomplished faster and better than I was instructed to do. On one occasion I had to obtain CIF gear for instructors that had the same pattern as the Cadets who were on their 2 week training cycle. Unfortunately, CIF would not issue me the same pattern gear as the cadets because their orders were to save it all for the Cadets. What they issued me was the old style gear. My CSM was not happy at all. He told me to return it, and I did. I then used my brain and found a round about way to get the instructors gear that had the same pattern as the Cadets, by going to the Cadet Drill Sergeants and explaining the situation I was in. They agreed to obtain several extra sets of CIF gear for their Reserve Army Instructors. As soon as they agreed to this and the plan was put into action, I notified my CSM of what I accomplished and he made sure that all future rotations got the message to do the same. Problem solved. As there are still a lot of Reverists that do not have this gear, or didn't during my tour there, everyone on the training sites looked the same - which is what my CSM wanted. I found ways to accomplish my tasks even though some of them went against my commander and CSM. But then again, that's what my job was. Senior Non-coms don't complain, they just get the job done.

Response by CPT Scott Sharon made Mar 7 at 2017 1:01 PM

CPT Scott Sharon — Tue, 07 Mar 2017 13:01:08 -0500

In Vietnam as a 1LT platoon leader in the 19th Combat Engineer Battallion, I was given a high priority project to blow out an old stone arch bridge and replace it with three 5' dia, culverts to widen the road from one to two lanes. We could not start the project until the road (HWY 1) was closed for the night and it had to be in and open by daylight the next morning.
While gathering materials at the site we needed that night, a Major, the bat. S-3, stopped by and started yelling at me because I was not doing something exactly by the book. He was yelling at me and calling me names but the problem was what he wanted me to do could not be done and still get the project completed on time,
I started yelling back at him to explain why I could not do what he wanted. I thought I would be locked up in the stockade but he actually agreed and apologized. We became friends after that.

Response by PO1 Bill O made Mar 7 at 2017 2:17 PM

PO1 Bill O — Tue, 07 Mar 2017 14:17:46 -0500

At least once a week, I never gave in! Challenge became education, education became knowledge, and eventually if you are correct 95% of the time challenge became a custom! You can never learn without challenge, without challenge you never learn! Outcomes differed in respects to the level of importance, each was always contemplated first, then executed, otherwise you look silly if the answer was not thought of before being asked! Always prepared for anything and everything!

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 7 at 2017 2:18 PM

Maj John Bell — Tue, 07 Mar 2017 14:18:01 -0500

I was a Company Commander of a Marine Barracks company when the barracks reorganized from a three company structure to two companies. I and the other Company Commander, along with our 1stSgts literally took turns picking SNCOs and NCOs. When we presented our rosters to the Barracks CO, XO and SgtMaj, the other Captain and both 1stSgts were excused and I was asked to stay behind. The CO, XO, and SgtMaj then collectively asked me if I was out of my "ever loving mind". They told me that based on their evaluations of the SNCO's and NCO's I had virtually cornered the market on the bottom 50th percentile of NCO's. They talked a lot. I spoke very little and the end result was that they were going to divide everybody up, instead of us Captains.

I asked permission to speak and reminded them that I was with these men 90% of the work day and that they spent very little time in comparison combined. When the XO stopped ripping my ass for being out of line, the CO asked me if I was willing to bet my career on my picks. I said yes and he said "You have 90 days to convince me". Instead of the 1stSgt and I picking the LCpls and Privates, we let the NCOs pick them.

In my opinion the other Captain had picked very loud, flashy, cult of personality SNCOs and NCOs. I picked NCO's that in my opinion were smart and more concerned with getting the job done than getting credit for getting the job done. During that 90 days, my company did not have a single Marine win Marine of the month or quarter, or NCO of the month or quarter. However, out of six platoons we placed 1, 2, and 3 in mission evaluations, Naval Weapons Station BZ's, fewest complaints from civilian contractors, weapons station personnel, supported submarine crews; no disciplinary actions, highest re-enlist rates, and rifle/pistol qualifications, and zero off-base liberty incidents. The 1stSgt and I both received complimentary letters in our record books.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 7 at 2017 3:49 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Tue, 07 Mar 2017 15:49:05 -0500

Once in a blue moon would a superior asked for my reasoning, and most of the time accepted it. The easiest way to keep it from happening was to ask for the input from both above and below and factor that into your decision. Notice I didn't say pander to or dump the responsibility on them. You should be able to defend your decision to anyone, if you can't, then it was probably the wrong decision.

Response by SMSgt Roger Horton made Mar 7 at 2017 6:09 PM

SMSgt Roger Horton — Tue, 07 Mar 2017 18:09:48 -0500

When I was 1st Sgt of MABS-49 Det C. I had several MOSs under my wing. All the sections was small as we were part of MABS-49 with HQ in Willow Grove, Pa. We only had a 6X6 as equipment until we went on AD. The only training available for them was MCI courses. I got the cooks into the Mess Hall, Bulk Fuels I got to labor at the fuel Farm. Where the rub came in was getting the Crash Crew Section some real training. I graduated with one of the Fire Captains at Crsh Crew. The only stipulation was they had to check in at 0800 on Saturday morning and stay till 0800 on Sunday. Crash did all their training on Saturday nights (live fires). We held Saturday formation early so they could muster with Crash and Sunday Morning they did admin requirements before they went home. I made the decision to do this so they could get some actual training but I didn't tell my OIC till Sunday. After explaining what, who, and why, he agreed to it and all worked out well.

Response by GySgt Melissa Gravila made Mar 7 at 2017 8:49 PM

GySgt Melissa Gravila — Tue, 07 Mar 2017 20:49:19 -0500

I don't know how others will take this, but I LIKE BEING QUESTIONED- I want my subordinates to always be looking for a better, more effective way. Just because we've always done it that way doesn't mean it's better, it just means that we are used to doing it that way. Sometimes it doesn't work out, but like I've always told my Marines and my staff, "I can correct a mistake, I can't correct a blank page. Good, bad, or indifferent, make a decision." I don't hire sheep, I hire people- people with brains, that can think. js

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 8 at 2017 12:19 AM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 08 Mar 2017 00:19:18 -0500

COL Mikel J. Burroughs Good question... indeed.... Since I always approached leadership positions with humility, and as a team effort, this rarely happened, certainly never with an NCO. I did have one company commander bow up me, as a battalion commander, and he is one of the 5 or 6 troopers in 33 years I raised my voice at... I locked his heals and told how it was going to be... This was after he would not shut is trap at a QTB, even after out Brigade Commander told him more than once he understood, and needed to take this discussion offline. He thought he was smarter than everyone.

Response by SPC Saundra Teater made Mar 8 at 2017 12:50 AM

SPC Saundra Teater — Wed, 08 Mar 2017 00:50:26 -0500

Once, while on motor pool guard, someone thru a bomb over the stone wall around it. It worked perfectly, blew a hole right thru it. Now, you have to understand, I was stationed in a military intelligence unit, so you should get the part about being smart and being book smart. Before guard, we were given rubber m16's. The OIC was afraid we might damage a real one. So when we heard the bomb go off, I made the decision, as highest ranking, to report to command and hide the keys to the million dollar trucks locked up in bays. As well as us. I called my OIC and told him what happened and he informed me that I was to go out there, and try to stop anyone coming in. I said sorry, no. They have actual weapons. The proof was in the damned hole in the wall. Did he remember we only had rubber guns? He did and still ordered us to stop anyone we could. We are admin. The only real important things to guard was the intel trucks, which were locked in a bay in another area. I already hid those keys. So I told the two p2 with me to hide. I looked out to see what was going on. Just two guys walking around with rifles, one took a shot at a window so I'm confident their weapons weren't rubber. I then took my scared ass off to find a hideout were I could watch. They walked around for a bit and just left. I called OIC and told him and it was only then he reported to his higher up. And he reported me for disobeying an order. The CSM asked if I did. Yes, I did. I had the right to refuse an order if it was suicidal. When asked what made it a suicidal order, my reply was because the maximum effective range of a rubber gun is about fifteen feet on a good day. I knew their shit worked and ours didn't. I wasn't going to go Rambo with a rubber gun. The CSM sided with me, and that 1LT hated me after that. He was trying to show everyone he was infantry ready. The rest of us knew the closest we would get to being infantry ready was handing out maps to them.

Response by SPC Jerry Addis made Mar 8 at 2017 11:27 AM

SPC Jerry Addis — Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:27:17 -0500

In the military I only supervised a small amount of troops and even then only as a SPC. However, in this situation I would likely preserve any concerns I had until I was able to assess the situation with said lower or higher to get a clear understanding of their decision. It may not have been a direct undermining, however if it was, I wouldn't address the situation in a public environment. Professionalism must be taken into mind under any and all circumstances. As a lower enlisted who was typically the subordinate, I was always taught that the last command given stood.

Response by MAJ Norm Michaels made Mar 9 at 2017 12:56 PM

MAJ Norm Michaels — Thu, 09 Mar 2017 12:56:15 -0500

As a Company Commander in 1985, I requested a Summary Court Martial from my Battalion Commander for a Sergeant in my company that was discovered to be having an affair with one of his own section SP4's wife. I was so angry that I wanted this 'person' to be made a public example. My new Battalion Commander refused, saying that they were consenting adults. I quoted the UCMJ on adultery and some other article about sex within the chain of command. [My memory is fogged on the exact articles I used, since this was 30 years ago...]. He refused. I finally convinced him to do a Field Grade Article 15; that was my mistake. He punished him with extra duty only. I could have punished him way more with my own Company Grade Article 15. This LTC was such a wimp, and he just didn't understand unit morale.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Mar 12 at 2017 2:37 PM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Sun, 12 Mar 2017 14:37:58 -0400

I was voluntolds to remain off a deployment and lead the Reserve and Air Guard Cooks deployed to our base in operating our Dining facility. Even our Cmdr. had been deployed. We had our Admin officer filling in as Cmdr.
We had a menu item that I felt had to be changed for time sensitivity: Stuffed cabbage .. I didn't have that many Additional troops on my shift.. I had other items to be prepared.. The personnel that last night didn't put together the burger-sausage-rice mixture to roll up in the cabbage.. it hadn't thawed enough they said. . I had stopped in and they could have done a third of it( 20 lbs).. by morn'g it was almost all thawed.. so "we" got the mix done and cabbage blanched..
We sprayed the pans and put Liight tomato sauce on bottoms and inside sides of pans and layed the cabbage leaves in. On bottom and sides. Then we packed the 2-1/2" pans with the ground mix. Lightly put more tom' sauce on and then top layer of cabbage and more tom sauce.
We set pans in roasters with some water to poach-bake the casseroles. It worked fantastic.. it took a lot of line pans, we opened a lot of new boxes to get enough pans (we had 30 [12 svgs ea. Pan]but needed 10 more pans to give us 120 more servings. Which we actually didn't need we used up 5 more pans. ]but better to have.. considering the complaints we served a lot of seconds .. they complained that the menu said stuffed cabbage.. I came back with due to time contingencies and some inexperienced personnel(Reserve and air guard) and I said that after they were gone so as not to catch flack from them.. The Lt. Backed me .. The Airman advisory council made a formal complaint to the Quartermaster Corps which makes up the master menu
Board and the base I.G. Base I.G. Backed us. And just copied mine and Lt's statement verbatum. The Air Force and it's units reserves the right to make its own changes to menu as it sees fit to meet budget and contingent sitreps. And that's what I'd done. We also were ready for a secondary backlash but it didn't arise.. some had never had it served the way we'd done it.. I said it's easy.. and told them what we done.. after that I got to thinking I got set up... (ha-ha we got him! He only did it that way to get out of making up them cabbage rolls and the mess it creates.. [only if one is sloppy and doesn't control their methods and their a.o])...

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 12 at 2017 4:38 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:38:22 -0400

I worked in a different role for most of my military career than the Army folks on RP. As a pilot in command, I usually had complete authority to execute or abort the mission based on operational or safety considerations. I was called on to answer for decisions during my career, but fortunately always survived the review. Here's an example:
We landed the C-130 at the Air Base after a shuttle to a remote field to deliver Army troops and equipment. We were scheduled for a quick turn with another load of equipment for the same remote airfield. Maintenance personnel and the Flight Engineer did a abbreviated post- and pre-flight inspection of the aircraft. They found a hole about 3 inches by 14 inches on the underside of the aircraft near the ramp hinge. The maintenance superintendent (E-8) looked at it and said it was no problem, didn't effect structural integrity of aircraft. The Flight Engineer, E-6, advised me he didn't want to fly an aircraft with a large hole in it. I crawled under the aircraft, took a look, noticed the spars and ribs were exposed. The E-8 wouldn't be flying with us, the E-6 was part of the aircrew. I decided not to fly the aircraft. Maintenance was pretty pissed because they lost a sortie. The Group Operations Officer (O-6) reviewed the decision with me. He agreed with my assessment and called the Maintenance Officer (O-4), situation resolved. Not every call I made was resolved so easily or in my favor. I did make some no-go calls for safety in my early years that the Squadron Ops Officer discussed with me. His critique was intended to make me a better decision maker.

I learned to get the best inputs I could in every decision making situation. Also, to value the expertise of the NCOs with technical experience and to take very seriously the team members who were willing to risk their ass based on your decision. I also learned to stand behind my decision in the face of disagreement as long as new facts weren't brought forward to change the basis of the decision. If I said an aircraft wasn't "safe" to fly, then I stood behind that decision until the aircraft was fixed. I've had the Ops Officer pull me off a mission and give the aircraft to another aircrew because I wouldn't fly it. The second aircrew turned it down also. After that, maintenance quit complaining and fixed the aircraft.

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made May 2 at 2017 11:13 AM

SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM — Tue, 02 May 2017 11:13:39 -0400

Have you ever been in that situation you ask? YES as a PLATOON sergeant but backed my stuff because when the 1SG and CSM came to me and asked to the Risk Assessment I had and I had for every soldier and NCO in my Platoon so they back down. Every leader must be ready for anything, You learn these things when you go through your SAMC process and LEADERSHIP process when being groomed as a young leader, when high leaders come to you better have your shit in order. ENOUGH SAID.