What is considered Combat Related to you?

2015-09-24T18:27:10-04:00

I am asking this because I was on the VA website and saw where it has me listed as having PTSD, but have it down as non-combat related since it stems from SGT Akbar (AKA Mark Kools) killing at least 2 and wounding 12-14 soldiers/officers at camp Pennsylvania before we went into Iraq. I know we weren't techniquely in combat yet since we were in Kuwait & not Iraq, but he was fighting against us so I would think that would make it combat related. What are your thoughts?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2015 6:30 PM

2015-09-24T18:30:47-04:00

Apparently they think you were not engaged by the enemy you were going to fight.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Sep 24 at 2015 6:34 PM

2015-09-24T18:34:33-04:00

SPC James Seigars to me combat related is reliving your vivid memories of a trauma event, that you can't get out of your head. Good movie to watch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob%27s_Ladder_(film)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2015 6:48 PM

2015-09-24T18:48:19-04:00

The problem is that he was not classified as "the enemy" even though he sided with the enemy and engaged US troops. It's the same reason the people attacked by MAJ Hassan were considered casualties of workplace violence rather than a terrorist attack. I think the rules should be changed so that insider threats are considered enemy combatants.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2015 7:15 PM

2015-09-24T19:15:05-04:00

The problem is, even if you were in the next tent over when he conducted his grenade attack, and you suffered shrapnel wounds, you wouldn't be awarded a purple heart since it isn't considered "enemy action."

On the other hand, people have service-related injuries from doing PT, so this definitely seems like a grey area, especially where mental health is concerned. The problem with PTSD is, it's hard to prove, so it's often viewed in the lens of what you were actually exposed to. Since you were not there, your PTSD claim seems no different than people who watched a terror attack on the news and suddenly felt the urge to duct tape the seals on their windows.

Yes, bad things can happen while deployed. If you watched 9/11 footage prior to a deployment and it had the same effect, they still wouldn't consider it service-related, because it was something everyone was able to see, not just those who serve. It's not a question of whether or not it could cause PTSD, but whether or not access to what caused it was service related.

Response by CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) made Sep 24 at 2015 7:20 PM

2015-09-24T19:20:44-04:00

The lawyers would have a field day with this question. First off, sorry this happened to you. Being attacked by someone you should trust has to be traumatic. I would argue this with the VA. 1) Were you in a combat zone and being paid combat zone pay? 2) SGT Asshole aligned himself mentally and publically with the enemy. He was raised as a Muslim. He attacked what he believed were enemy Soldiers (Americans) with grenades, killing and wounding American forces. He also shot and killed a Soldier. He confessed to his crimes in court. During his trial, he convinced an MP to remove his cuffs to use the restroom. He then stabbed the MP in the neck before being wrestled to the ground. He was convicted of premeditated murder and is going through the appeals process.

The victims of Maj Hasan (Ft Hood) and those of the recruiting station at Little Rock in 2009 were awarded purple hearts. More recent victims of terrorist attacks in the US will also receive purple hearts – did you receive a purple heart for this?

I believe Akbar has two appeals left. Once his appeals are exhausted and his sentence is upheld, the president must order his execution, commute his sentence or pardon him. Given all these attacks, particularly the one on the MP back here in the States, he clearly (IMO) has aligned himself with our enemies. I view him the same as the Boston Bombers (I view him less than dogshit but that’s not the point).

So, if you are doing this for retirement pay reasons (more tax free pay), you may want to discuss this with a lawyer – arguing such a case by yourself against the VA would likely be futile. If you are simply curious and are wondering why, compose a letter to the VA and ask them (If you writing skills are not top notch, get some help composing it). Go through an advocate such as DAV (Disabled American Veterans). I hope all works out for you and I’m sorry this happened to you.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Sep 24 at 2015 7:31 PM

2015-09-24T19:31:58-04:00

Did they tell you that he used civilian grenades?

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Sep 24 at 2015 8:23 PM

2015-09-24T20:23:08-04:00

You can always appeal it, and point out that it happened inside a Combat Zone. The VA's definition of Combat (Veteran) is different the "common knowledge" definition of Combat.

Kuwait is a Combat Zone according to VA regulations (the entire Gulf is since 1990~).

If they want to play the "technicality game" escalate it and use their own rules against them.

Response by MAJ James Woods made Sep 24 at 2015 8:32 PM

2015-09-24T20:32:55-04:00

Combat related used to be simple to define; physical injury as result of direct and indirect enemy contact. Nowadays they added emotional and physiological damage in a combat theater of operations. Kuwait although a staging area isn't considered a combat zone. Neither is Qatar or Krygizastan(sp?) where we stage troops for OIF/OND/OEF. The victims of the Ft Hood shooting are non combat related PTSD even though it was a terrorist related attack.

Response by SPC Nate Lamphier made Sep 25 at 2015 9:08 AM

2015-09-25T09:08:37-04:00

Sad thing is, if a "known" figure (aka politician etc) was injured/killed in one of these attacks, I bet it would not be classified as "friendly".

Response by SSG Nick Tramontano made Sep 25 at 2015 9:46 PM

2015-09-25T21:46:26-04:00

If you haven't already , I would get in touch with a liason from the American Legion, DAV, or Order of the Purple Heart to assisit and advise you with any claims.

Response by SGT Kevin Smith made Oct 3 at 2015 2:08 PM

2015-10-03T14:08:09-04:00

Damn I remember that. I was at Coyote waiting for the go. Didn't they at least list it as service connected? The combat related nomenclature shouldn't really make a difference? Good luck on your claim.

Response by CPT Topher Murphy made Oct 6 at 2015 1:10 PM

2015-10-06T13:10:25-04:00

A couple issues here: is this a C&P exam stating this? Is this your mental health provider saying this? What do you mean "VA website"? The way the law is written it talks about "fear of hostile military or terrorist activity, ". If SGT Akbar was not defined as a terrorist then by law the rater would probably move that way. However it's important that you receive help with whatever is ailing you.

Response by LCpl Jesse Foust made Oct 6 at 2015 2:05 PM

2015-10-06T14:05:20-04:00

Maybe this will be unpopular, but I'm going to say it anyway. No, it's not combat related. You were attacked, and that means something. However, it's not the same as combat. I'm not familiar with the VA process here because I overcame PTSD on my own by coming to terms with what happened, and recognizing that it is a part of war, which has been part of humanity for thousands of years. Do you need the combat related rating for some extra benefit?

Response by SPC Tyree Cooper made Oct 6 at 2015 2:19 PM

2015-10-06T14:19:54-04:00

Combat related means it happened during a deployment in the theater of operations .

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 3:12 PM

2015-10-06T15:12:46-04:00

PTSD is not in and of itself disqualifying from combat duty.......if your symptoms are not debilitating you may be qualified to go....if they are seek help and get qualified....soldiers (the collective we) deploy....it's our job if you cant do it ....it may be time to retire, or separate.

Response by MSgt Mike Ash made Oct 6 at 2015 3:19 PM

2015-10-06T15:19:26-04:00

Never heard of combat-related, non-combat related - it's most certainly SERVICE-CONNECTED and I thought that's all the VA cared about or rated for. I would guess the "combat-related" would come in for a decision to award the Purple Heart. Although friendly fire, it occured in a combat zone (declared by an executive order by the president) and therefore one would think it's combat-related however, the definition of combat (to oppose in battle, fight against) is slightly different for the military (an action fought between 2 military forces).

Response by Sgt Spencer Sikder made Oct 6 at 2015 3:35 PM

2015-10-06T15:35:00-04:00

http://www.benefits.va.gov/WARMS/topic-compensation-pension.asp Has some information, but I didn't see the distinction in the C&P Raters guide (near the bottom of the center of the page) between combat and non-combat related PTSD (maybe I over looked it).

This second link is a search of VA's guidelines, for which there are many. http://www.index.va.gov/search/va/va_search.jsp?NQ=URL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.benefits.va.gov%2FWARMS%2Fwhats_new.asp&QT=combat+related+ptsd+definition&submit.x=23&submit.y=19

Compensation and Pension Materials - Web Automated Reference Material System

List of Veterans Benefits Administration Benefits Topics

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Oct 6 at 2015 4:29 PM

2015-10-06T16:29:12-04:00

Yep... combat... also....IMHO if you are in theater operating outside the wire in a yellow/red area where (say OEF) the enemy is not denied movement in areas and thoses areas are outside the control of IRoA, your in an a bad place! (Bad for them). If you are in a tactical movement / GAC behind a RCP/BUFFALO everday welcome to the club!!! Ps, not me... but close.

Response by CPT James Burkholder made Oct 6 at 2015 4:37 PM

2015-10-06T16:37:28-04:00

This is really tough for me, for although I spent 16 months in RVN, I never was in combat. I was in a medical company. We did our job and I think the job was a benefit to the military mission. So the base got its ammo dump blew up, and some shrapnel fell on us, but there was no great danger. A friend of mine who was in Korea and has some medals including a bronze star with V was on a ship but never saw actual combat as I understand it . . . getting shot at or shooting at someone. I don't think I was in a combat zone.

Response by COL David Barillo made Oct 6 at 2015 4:43 PM

2015-10-06T16:43:22-04:00

You were in CENTCOM AOR and came under attack. Had I been your treating doctor, I would have listed this as a combat-related injury

Response by COL David Barillo made Oct 6 at 2015 4:47 PM

2015-10-06T16:47:58-04:00

You were in the CENTCOM AOR when this happened which, at the time. was a war zone. Early in OIF they changed the rules so that one day in CENTCOM AOR qualified you for the combat patch. If I were your treating physician, I would have definitely have listed this as a combat injury

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 6 at 2015 4:53 PM

2015-10-06T16:53:44-04:00

Sorry brother, you got BOHICA'd on that one. I'm talking major green weenie. Personally, I don't see it as anything but combat related. Deployed to the CENTCOM AOR, drawing combat $$, and grenades going off by a traitor, etc. The second he turned traitor and attacked blue forces he was an enemy combatant. Was this considered workplace violence? Incredible.

Response by SSG Delanda Hunt made Oct 6 at 2015 7:33 PM

2015-10-06T19:33:53-04:00

Not combat related. To be combat related it must be against a declared enemy combatant. Just an opinion.

Response by PO1 George Titsworth made Oct 6 at 2015 8:37 PM

2015-10-06T20:37:15-04:00

There are 3 types of PTSD. Combat PTSD, Personal PTSD, and Military Sexual Trauma. The PTSD you mention is based on fear of hostile military action or an event. In this case, your event qualifies you individually to claim PTSD because you were in fear for your life with the attack by that turncoat and also it was a hostile act. You'd straddle the line between combat and a personal action PTSD. Even so, VA is not going to nitpick it if you can establish you were there during the event. If you can't VA has to establish it through a memo to JSSRC which may slow your claim down, but in the long run, if it's substantiated and if the Comp and Pen examiner opines that you have PTSD due to fear and easing standards, you'll get it. I can't tell you what percentage but that would be based on the diagnosis the examiner gave.

Response by COL John Hudson made Oct 7 at 2015 12:00 AM

2015-10-07T00:00:35-04:00

James...look at this as "Ask The IG." The issue is, at its heart, whether or not an incident is deemed workplace violence or an act of terrorism. I suggest you review the full story of Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan who killed 13 service members at Ft. Hood and the resultant congressional actions that occurred later. It's understood that traumatic stress by itself is not restricted to combat situations exclusively and can affect anyone exposed to traumatic events anywhere. Unfortunately, to be "service connected" and subject to VA Benefits the situation must fall within the definition as given by current regulation and VA guidelines which are generally combat related. All incidents are reviewed on a case by case basis and judged accordingly. I suggest you file an appeal to the VA including all of the evidence you have and explain why you believe your case should be vetted as "service connected," including exactly what benefits you feel you should receive as a result.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Oct 7 at 2015 12:04 AM

2015-10-07T00:04:29-04:00

Byron Skinner 11ACR Vietnam 1966.
A Purple Heart, and unable to return to duty.The owie Purple Bleeder for a minor wound such as shrapnel or a grazing bullet wound is not a reason for combat related. The guy/gal missing a body part, internal organ and will have infection and pain issues the rest of his or her life is Combat Related. Irony is the VA usually give that veterans the short end of the stick.

Response by SP5 David J Gray made Oct 7 at 2015 12:21 AM

2015-10-07T00:21:33-04:00

What is considered Combat Related to you?
When you have spent hours under intense, non-stop fire from an enemy combatant, who cares nothing for your existence, who will hunt you down til you're exhausted, whose definition of human life is not the same as yours...you will know what is considered combat-related.

When you have spent every second, every minute, every hour of the day soaking wet, bone dry thirsty, burning hot, ducking lead and hiding so you can jump some poor, unsuspecting soul...you will know the difference.

When you're hiking a dirty trail, look up and your buddies head disappears in front of you from a sniper hiding in a spider hole, then you'll know what combat-related is.

When you have spent a day praying that you can find a place to relieve yourself or just take a sh** because your constipated belly hurts so bad...without getting shot...then you will know the difference.

When you are faced with whether to shoot a little 8 yr. old girl holding an M29 (pin pulled) that will blow you to pieces, you will know the difference.

When you are done picking up the pieces of your best friend, an ammo bearer shot by a sniper round, then you will know the difference.

Trust me...having some irrational idiot come running into a barracks and blow up some friendly hardly defines a combat zone...yeh, I feel bad for those poor souls and their families but if I were you I would read the local papers...they are full of gang-related kills no different than the event you are describing....and it happens every day...in the good ole USA. You don't have to go to Kuwait.

My Son (a Marine Sniper for the 3/4 during the hunt for Saddam H.) lost both his legs while chasing down some of those combatants...ask him what Combat-related is?

When a person has really been in combat, they don't ask this question...they know the difference. PTSD? Hell, I'm pretty sure you don't know what that is. I was shot three times in the same operation near Duc Hoa, Vietnam on a search and destroy (at least that's what we were told)...year and a half in the hospital and 100% disability...to date I've had about 40 surgeries in as many years. I know what combat is...it will never change. It's a nasty business but mostly...hauntingly unforgettable.

Count yourself Lucky and move on! This kind of bull*** makes me sick because it makes it difficult for the real combat people...civilians look you in the face and ask themselves "...if you're one of those?..."...you know...the guy with the Purple Heart awarded for diving on the ground and running a stick up his nose.

BTW: You don't say how you came by this PTSD? Were you involved with the Sgt while he performed this dastardly act? Hand-to Hand? Taking shots? Or were you watching the activity? if that's the case we should diagnose most of the kids in the USA with PTSD...they watch this kind of stuff everyday on their TV sets and through their video games. Call me...I'll give you some therapy stories you'll never forget. I might be wrong but I'm guessing that the probability is high that the greater part of any given population, if properly examined, would already have some sort of PTSD...they don't have to be in the Military. Some of the activity that goes on in the inner cities rivals any combat conditions. Hope this helps...Unfortunately, I haven’t forgotten any of this...that’s Combat-related PTSD! Good Luck!

Response by SGT Felicia King made Oct 7 at 2015 1:18 AM

2015-10-07T01:18:57-04:00

I always understood combat as under enemy fire. Kuwait is a peace keeping mission. And upon entry to Iraq (a war zone), you fly into Kuwait (green zone). The fire you withstood came from friendly fire, though it came from a disgruntled soldier, that soldier was meant to be fighting with you and not against you.
I believe it has something to do with location and enemy fire.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 1:23 AM

2015-10-07T01:23:36-04:00

You don't need to worry about the classification of PTSD as combat or non combat related, because Soldiers come from all types of pre military situation where they suffered from PTSD prior to entry. Certain things experienced in the military because of your expectations to perform under elevated stress levels can cause a relapse or intensification of symptoms.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Oct 7 at 2015 10:21 AM

2015-10-07T10:21:16-04:00

The problem is what is classified as combat because I'd have to say there's no doubt that you were in it.

Response by SSG Katherine Likely made Oct 8 at 2015 2:15 PM

2015-10-08T14:15:06-04:00

I think any time you are overseas in a military position - the military sent you there - any injury should be listed as combat relate - behind lines. This would show you were in another place besides the states - on a military mission - but not on the combat line.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2015 3:02 PM

2015-10-08T15:02:58-04:00

Did the wounded get the Purple Heart?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 19 at 2015 3:15 PM

2015-10-19T15:15:01-04:00

Trying to get money from my wife.

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Oct 20 at 2015 3:08 AM

2015-10-20T03:08:59-04:00

Your making this way to complicated.

Response by MSG Alfred Aguilar made Oct 20 at 2015 8:08 PM

2015-10-20T20:08:44-04:00

A role that directly supports combat actions, regardless of geography.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 9:51 PM

2015-10-21T21:51:50-04:00

I was at that camp in 03. He did what he did because he did not believe in the invasion and did not want to attack/kill fellow Muslims. PTSD had nothing to do with his reasons. He told his CoC he didn't want to deploy so instead of missing movement he chose to deploy and kill his fellow soldiers. Humanity has lived with PTSD since the beginning of creation. Why now is it such a big deal? Is it because medical professionals can't prove a person has it and its a free percentage on VA claims? Is it because people think its cool? Explain how a non combat arms soldier that never left the wire can claim PTSD when they redeploy stateside? When all they did was work in a S shop or some POG ass job that only required shift work? That's the real question. That jackass in 03 was just a...never mind he isn't worth the words. His actions weren't related to PTSD. Combat related to me as a Infantryman is direct or non direct contact with an enemy force. If injured by a mortar attack on a COP/JSS/FOB that is non direct contact and is combat related. Being attacked via VBIED/HBIED/IED/EFP, shot at, mortared, grenaded, or having a bird crash due to direct fire is combat related PERIOD. If a soldier gets deployed and claims any injury mental or physical that was not in direct or non direct contact with an enemy combatant his/her claim is NOT combat related. That's just this Infantryman's opinion, but what do I know...I'm just a trigger puller!

Response by MSG Alfred Aguilar made Oct 22 at 2015 2:30 AM

2015-10-22T02:30:25-04:00

Take your case to a VFW representative. They have a lot of experience in such matters. They can help you formulate your claim properly so that it contains key phrases that will give you a better chance.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 12 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-11-12T14:44:01-05:00

Combat can be tied to an event.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2019 9:49 PM

2019-08-22T21:49:30-04:00

Did those killed or wounded receive Purple Hearts? Anyone get awarded a CAB due to the attack?
No, right? It didn't meet the definition.
It wasn't combat related, it was because of an attack by another service member.
It doesn't impact the percentage awarded, just the characterization.

"The VA Adjudications Procedures Manual M21-1MR (available on the VA website) defines combat as “personal participation in events constituting an actual fight or encounter with a military foe or hostile unit or instrumentality. It includes presence during such events either as a combatant, or service member performing duty in support of combatants, such as providing medical care to the wounded."