What is considered mass punishment?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 05:32:04 -0500

What do you consider mass punishment.  Do to recent events the question has been raised and in an attempt to find the regulation governing this I came up dry.  So my question is what is considered mass punishment vs special unit training, and where can I find it in the regulations?

Response by SPC Brendan Kearns made Feb 3 at 2014 5:39 AM

SPC Brendan Kearns — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 05:39:09 -0500

personally i feel punish the individual, because with the no hazing rules today anybody that try's to correct the SM for the groups faults will get an IG complaint

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 5:50 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 05:50:13 -0500

Why is it that no one will respond to this post? Scared?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 6:07 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 06:07:19 -0500

I think the question is in need of a clarifying basis. Punishment and Corrective Training are always confused.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 6:45 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 06:45:31 -0500

I'd say mass punishment would be if one person screws up, and the corrective action is applied to the entire group. What's your point?

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Feb 4 at 2014 8:51 AM

SFC A.M. Drake — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 08:51:34 -0500

SFC Sapikowski,

Give it time other SM's will answer your question to the best of their ability, it takes time for people to read whatever is important to them.

Response by SGT R J Imhoff made Feb 4 at 2014 8:57 AM

SGT R J Imhoff — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 08:57:04 -0500

Mass punishment is not ever Corrective/Special Unit Training. When an Individual screws up that requires a Punishment it is his to serve.. If his brothers feel obligated to serve such punishment along side of the individual, because they feel that they should of prevented such action and failed the Team that is up to them.. If the screw up reveals a flaw or mistake in Training a unit? Then that requires additional Corrective Special Training to prevent it in the future. and sometimes both.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 9:12 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 09:12:10 -0500

Mass punishment has proven to be ineffective.

If someone screws up, then the punishment is theirs alone.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 10:27 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 10:27:38 -0500

Will an older SM please distinguishing the difference between the two for me if they don't mind? In my exponential amount of time served (sarcasm) I've heard the terms "punishment" and "corrective training" used interchangeably. I find it a tad confusing sometimes trying to differentiate the two when most NCOs I run into will use one in substitution of the other.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 11:23 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 11:23:03 -0500

I consider Punishment to be things like Extra Duty, Papers, etc... that can be applied to an individual when they have done something wrong or are not performing to standard. These should always be accompanied by event oriented counseling statements so that a soldier can understand the expectations of them, and can set measurable goals for improvement.

Corrective training would be appropriate when there are across the board failures that doesn't target any specific individual. Group papers on equipment knowledge if there was across the board failures on an inspection. Extra PT for soldier's who have failed the APFT, which applies to ALL failures. Tougher PT regiment in the morning if all soldiers in the platoon/squad, etc... are underperforming.

Mass punishment however is immoral and has been proven to be largely ineffective. If you have 30 people in your platoon and it's only 2 individuals who are consistently underperforming or getting in trouble, how does it benefit the group as a whole to punish everyone for the actions of a few? All that does is lower morale, foster an environment of toxic leadership, and your soldiers will lose respect and trust in their leadership.

There will always be problem soldiers, and it's your job, and their first line leader's job to do corrective training, developmental counseling, and professional goal setting, to bring them up to snuff. However, it comes down to the individual and their determination and motivation to do better. If they don't choose to get their act together, then seperate them from the Army.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 11:55 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 11:55:50 -0500

Mass punishment is, and always has been a morale killer. Outside of a Basic Training situation, there is no way that an entire unit can prevent any individual from making poor decisions and doing the wrong thing.

When in a training environment where everyone is always housed in the same area, and does everything as a group, yes an individual can be observed and possibly policed-up by his unit. Then and only then can an entire unit be held responsible for an individual's actions. Even in AIT, when some are given earned off-post passes on weekends, mass punishment is inappropriate, as the entire unit cannot/will not follow eachother around while on pass.

To apply mass punishment in a "real Army" unit only kills morale, as it tells the Soldiers that no matter what, they will be punished. What incentive is there for a Soldier to do the right thing when s/he knows that one screw-up by anyone will elicit the same punishment for all? There is none. For example, in one unit I was in, a couple of people got DUIs over the weekend. Those people were held in custody. The rest of us had to come in on a Saturday for 3 hours of PT, followed by a Class A inspection, followed by a 2 hour lecture on the evils of drinking and driving. Those who did NOT get a DUI were punished. Those who DID get a DUI did not receive that punishment. Morale sank further when the unit was told that it was not punishment, but "training."

When you punish those who do the right things for the actions of those who do not, you not only lower morale, but are showing your Soldiers that you as a leader do not respect them and their success at following rules. Your Soldiers will think you a lesser leader (or not a leader at all) for punishing those who do not deserve it. If you think this is not true, you're only fooling yourself.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 11:59 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 11:59:57 -0500

Example of mass punishment. I consider mass punishment is when one person messes up and a group (whether it be a section, Company, BN, etc.) is punished for the offense. For example, if a soldier in the barracks gets drunk and fights the MPs when they are called out. He should get in trouble, but the CoC decides no alcohol in the barracks for any soldier. That would be mass punishment. While I have found no regulation governing this, I understand that it is the CoC's attempt at resolving the issue IOT mitigate future incidents. Is it right or wrong? Is it fair or well thought out? Those are hard questions to answer and many times situationally dependent.

An example of special unit training. Sticking with the barracks, if there is a SHARP violation in the barracks, the CoC may decide to re-train the unit with additional SHARP classes in addition to the regular training that is required by regulation. This is not to punish the whole unit but to refresh everyone's responsibility when it comes to identifying, preventing, and reporting SHARP violations.

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Feb 4 at 2014 12:36 PM

SFC Stephen P. — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 12:36:39 -0500

The distinction is difficult to describe without examples.

If it is designed or intended to frustrate, fatigue, or annoy, then it is punishment. If it addresses an actual organizational deficiency by eliminating the cause, then it is not punishment.

Many moons ago, my company's barracks experienced a rash of fire alarm pranks. At one point, the alarm system completely broke. The 1SG compensated by establishing a fire watch. This was not a punishment, but a force protection measure. Had the alarm been FMC, then a fire watch would have been a punitive reaction. If the command had established security patrols to prevent misuse of the alarms, it would have been protection of mission critical assets; if the patrols were conducted around the parking lot, it would have been punitive.

Subjectivity is not always a bad thing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 2:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 14:26:13 -0500

There are three "Golden Rules" to consider when determining appropriate Corrective Training/ Corrective Actions:

1. Non-punitive: The commander must ensure that the nature of the training or instruction is not punitive. FM 27-1 provides guidance for commanders, in that commanders must distinguish extra training from punishment, or even the appearance of punishment. 2. Time: AR 600-20, paragraph 4-6 b(1), states the training, instruction, or correction given to a Soldier to correct deficiencies must be directly related to the deficiency and should continue only until the training deficiency is overcome. 3. Procedure: Corrective training is intended to be supervised by the appropriate leaders within the command. Therefore, leaders should be present during corrective training to dispel the appearance of punishment being directed toward a Soldier. Commanders must ensure that the nature of training or instruction is not punishment.

AR 600-20, paragraph 4-6(b), states that corrective training should not be used in an "oppressive manner to evade the procedural safeguards applying to non-judicial punishment."

DON’T: A Soldier who is late for formation and is ordered to clean the orderly room after hours. This is a form of non-judicial punishment under UCMJ, Article 15, FM 27-1, Chapter 7, which also provides guidance to commanders on corrective training. The rationale is that if a Soldier perceives corrective training or instruction as punishment, all training and instruction will be degraded and their value jeopardized. DO: Leaders should use a DA Form 4856 (Developmental Counseling Form) to annotate the plan for corrective training. If the Soldier does not meet the standard the leader annotates the result and considers if this failure is for a reason that might lead to a form of non-judicial punishment. If the Soldier still fails to achieve the standard, the chain of command should assess whether the Soldier is fit for military service and may consider options for separation. The bottom line is this – There’s no more "smoke ‘em ‘til they puke." When all else fails, use the DA 4856 and ensure that "further incidents of this nature could lead to UCMJ action" is added at the end of the counseling summary. When used properly, corrective training is a valuable tool for leaders to correct shortcomings and to improve the discipline and efficiency within their units. It’s all about training Soldiers to be better Soldiers and excellent leaders. If in doubt as to whether or not the corrective training is appropriate for the circumstance, the IG recommends discussing it with your chain of command and/or legal advisor.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Feb 4 at 2014 5:41 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 17:41:02 -0500

Here's one scenario where I can see mass punishment being effective, in theory. This did happen to me. Scenario -- You are in basic. Day 1: Your buddy shows up late to first formation. Your buddy gets smoked by himself. Day 2: No change. He shows up late to first formation again. Your whole platoon gets smoked because of this one guy. Day 3: He shows up early to first formation, squared away. I'm not suggesting mass punishment works for everything -- or that it always works for one thing -- but it was effective in this one common scenario. Thoughts?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 6:21 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 18:21:51 -0500

I don't believe in "mass punishment." I also can not find any regulation that states you can not legally or morally conduct these excercises. I do challenge you though to change your terminology to corrective training and team building excercises.

If you are called on the carpet about why you called the entire barracks in on a Saturday at 0600 to have a GI Party it is not because SPC """"" did not clean his or her room, it is because you found the common areas and rooms to be in an unsatisfactory state that was already laid out in your initial counselings and SOPs and after you gave several warnings, verbal or written, the situation did not correct itself. How else would one correct a dirty barracks?

Team building excercises are also a good way to encourage team work to correct a deficiency. If you have a Soldier that is not able to stay with a formation the onus should be placed upon the formation to motivate said Soldier. If we as an organization are unable to motivate our battle buddies, slow the pace, or work together to complete a task we must therefore continue to train on such a task until that time that we as an organization are trained proficiently enough to complete said task in the prescribed time in the prescribed conditions.

The punishment merely needs to fit the deficiency. I believe we as NCOs correct deficiencies and officers dole out punishment.

Response by SSG Zachery Mitchell made Feb 6 at 2014 8:18 PM

SSG Zachery Mitchell — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 20:18:40 -0500

Mass punishment is ineffective and affects moral. Mass punishment to me is punishing everyone in the unit for the careless acts of one or two Soldiers. I don't agree with mass punishment. Never have. If I have a Soldier that makes a mistake or gets into trouble I am going to punish just that Soldier accordingly, not every Soldier in my shop. I have seen many incidents that have resulted in mass punishment throughout my career and every time it has ended negatively.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2014 8:28 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 20:28:28 -0500

It reminds of me of when my adopted daughter was in elementary school and the teacher sent a letter home about a mass punishment I told her that her spelling is bad with several words spelled incorrectly. But the bottom line is "they shouldn't be punished en masse for what a couple of well-know punks were doing. She was kind of shocked but I found it ironic.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2014 10:06 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:06:27 -0500

Back in the day (I get to say that) We were built tough and
hardened to execute our missions with a violence of action and, sorry, but I am
here to say, that mass punishments was a part of that break down and build up.
Today of course, leaders must think differently and have adapted to our
changing military with regards to forms of punishment. Is it right? It depends
on who you ask. I survived it and am better for it. Do I consider what I went
though as a private in the Ranger Regiment hazing or unfair punishment? Not
really. There was a method to the madness and it traveled at 100 mph. There is
little room and tolerance for failure and making mistakes. Ehh, mistakes, we
can live with, learn from and do better the next time. Failure is not an
option. Now don’t read too much into this. You know... there HAS been some
assimilation over the years and for sure, I am not out there smoking the crap
out of everyone because it happened to me. But I still do agree that tough love
builds great warriors.

Should an entire platoon be "punished" for the fault of
one or the few? (Is that a jelly doughnut PVT Pyle?) Depends on the
circumstances and what you have attempted previously. But if you're going to
complain because the platoon daddy made you some push-ups for PVT Snaplink’s
screw up, ask yourself; did I already know PVT Snaplink had screwed up or was
going to screw up? Could I have prevented it? Could I have stepped up and
taught him something which would have avoided the scuffing?

A lot of you probably think this is very archaic thinking or are
like damn! This CPT is all screwed up himself. And I know my Air Force and Navy
brethren are like… Damn!!!! No, Double Damn!

I’m just an old Ranger-----NOW DO PUSHUPS!!!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2014 10:09 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:09:14 -0500

SFC,

Punishing those that did nothing wrong, but simply because they are a part of the section or unit. I consider that mass punishment.