What is discipline?

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 May 2023 20:57:26 -0400

We are still the top dog on the battlefield. Yet, as we look around our formations, many of us feel that we are a lot weaker than we used to be. One specific example of this is our understanding and use of discipline. I think this fundamental concept is getting watered down or just plain confused for something else. How do you understand it? What should it mean to Jane and Joe? Why is it important?

Does anyone else remember Mattis' memo pushed out from the Pentagon in 2018? He took a moment to speak to us on discipline and lethality. He said, "If a subordinate makes a mistake, leaders should learn to coach them better. But we must not tolerate or ignore lapses in discipline... Time, inconvenience, or administrative burdens are no excuse for allowing substandard conduct to persist." For many units across the board today, I consider that a good starting point.

Response by SSG William Jones made May 2 at 2023 9:19 PM

SSG William Jones — Tue, 02 May 2023 21:19:21 -0400

Words of wisdom from "The Bulldog"!!!

Response by Maj Kim Patterson made May 2 at 2023 10:51 PM

Maj Kim Patterson — Tue, 02 May 2023 22:51:36 -0400

1LT Private RallyPoint Member after my time but good to know

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made May 3 at 2023 4:19 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Wed, 03 May 2023 04:19:43 -0400

There is a line between discipline and abuse. Most of the time the line is a big bold double wide sharpie. Occasionally is is mighty fine, indeed. But there is always a line.

I think a large part of the problem is "one trick" discipline. Leaders who only know one way to discipline the troops get in serious trouble when that one way does not work. Their only answer is MORE one way. 5 puships I not abuse. I would even go so far as 10 or even 50 is not, in many circumstances. But 431 is (the most I ever had to do in a single "smoke session.") Formal counseling for screwup isnt abuse. Even for all major events, good or bad. But formal counseling everyday covering inane topics is.

Ultimately, the goal of external discipline is to build internal discipline. But when you go overboard, all you build is resentment.

So... yes, Mattis is right. Absolutely nip indiscipline in the bud. Fix it, and quick! Just make sure your cure is ACTUALLY a cure and not a show. And make sure it is ACTUALLY indiscipline, and not the result of YOUR failure to properly teach, coach, or mentor.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2023 7:07 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 May 2023 07:07:04 -0400

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2018/08/14/mattis-wants-commanders-to-rely-more-on-ucmj-for-disciplinary-problems/

Mattis wants commanders to rely more on UCMJ for disciplinary problems

The secretary of defense wants commanders to rely more on the military justice system and less on administrative punishments.

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made May 3 at 2023 9:24 AM

CSM Chuck Stafford — Wed, 03 May 2023 09:24:00 -0400

I learned this in HS JROTC and it was foundational to every success I had as a leader:

The discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than to make an army. It is possible to impart instruction and give commands in such a manner and such a tone of voice as to inspire in the soldier no feeling but an intense desire to obey, while the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey.

The one mode or the other in dealing with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who feels the respect which is due to others cannot fail to inspire in them respect for himself; while he who feels, and hence manifests, disrespect toward others, especially his subordinates, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself.

– LTG John M. Schofield, 1879

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made May 7 at 2023 8:13 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sun, 07 May 2023 08:13:35 -0400

Discipline simply means to be able to continue doing what you are supposed to be in the absence of leadership, while not straying from the standards and the mission.

While I am retired, I am connected with 100’s of former Soldiers, those who ETSd, retired and many still on active duty.

Many of those who ETSd recently have done so out of frustration with the heading of the military, many of the current policies provide a pathway to a loosening of standards that have long been the glue-fabric of the military. Many of those still serving are only seeking to ensure they meet the retirement throes-hold.

I won’t continue to list what they share with me, in my three plus decades of service many superficial things changed, nothing of substance.

The NCO creed guided us, and the command/UCMJ backed us. How our Soldiers responded to our guidance and orders was evident daily. Indiscipline was not tolerated, but met with coaching, counseling, retraining and if necessary UCMJ. Indiscipline in garrison or training certainly meant that control of the expanse of the battlefield would be impossible. We need to know that our Soldiers will stay the course in the absence of leaderships physical presence, as the discipline instilled ensures they feel our presence when needed. The training, the guidance, the support and care all fall in together.

Lessening that standard of discipline will cause the fabric to unravel, Unfortunatley the one who pays the greatest price is the young Service member who is not afforded ge same care, concern and support of a leader.
This is too difficult to portray on this site in this time. Our Service members deserve leadership, leaders who care and know how to combine all available resources in the daily management of their mission, THE FOCUS HAS TO BE ON THE INDIVIDUAL SERVICE MEMBER.