What is more important in any leader: integrity/character - OR - effectiveness?

2018-08-24T11:12:31-04:00

Is it better to have a leader who "gets the job done" - regardless of how it gets done - OR - is it better to have a leader with integrity and character, but is less effective?

Who would you rather be as a leader?
Who would you rather have lead you?

Response by SPC Joseph Wojcik made Aug 24 at 2018 12:19 PM

2018-08-24T12:19:48-04:00

If I must chose one or the other, I''d say effectiveness.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 24 at 2018 2:36 PM

2018-08-24T14:36:16-04:00

Integrity and character over pragmatism. Pragmatists are often assholes.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2018 3:41 PM

2018-08-24T15:41:14-04:00

There are many aspects to effectively leading others. Self-awareness may be the most important skill to build. Without understanding yourself, you can’t improve yourself. Self-awareness also helps you make decisions and makes you more comfortable and confident with each decision you make. Self-awareness allows you to understand your strengths and weaknesses so that you know where to focus your time and energy.

Response by PO1 Don Gulizia made Aug 24 at 2018 4:01 PM

2018-08-24T16:01:29-04:00

You really need to have a button that says "other" for a couple of reasons. I want both. If I can't have both than it really depends on the situation. Would you rather have Lee or Patton leading military forces? Clinton or Carter during peacetime? It seems that 18 years ago there were some that thought Integrity/Character mattered more than Effectiveness while other favored Effectiveness. Now, it seems the sides have switched.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2018 4:29 PM

2018-08-24T16:29:44-04:00

I once heard someone say that if you had to choose between an effective leader who's an a**hole and "good guy" who is incompetent, chose the a**hole. Because every now and then he won't be an a**hole. Point being, if someone is incompetent, they'll always be incompetent. Now obviously character/integrity and effectiveness are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. But if I had to choose between the two, I'd rather have the integrity and character. Id' rather my leaders have that as well.

Response by MSG Stan Hutchison made Aug 24 at 2018 5:57 PM

2018-08-24T17:57:31-04:00

I look for honesty, compassion, and honor in all.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Aug 25 at 2018 1:23 AM

2018-08-25T01:23:51-04:00

Odd question of separately measured descriptors. Any leader has to be effective. If not, they aren't leaders very long. Regarding the integrity/character thing, you'll likely see more effective leaders would be described that way. However, there are many past leaders who were substantial Alpha Hotels. Patton and to a lesser extent McArthur come to mind. The big thing was 99% of the troops never saw that side that was frequented on aides and command staff. I'd propose a variation of the topic of what types are allowed to be leaders today vs. the past. Most of the past leaders would fail. What, women in uniform??? What do you mean I can't kick his....? Effective for their time? You bet. Effective today? Debatable. However a Patton born in 1990 would be a different Patton. Maybe never put on a uniform.

My concern is my observation that people with integrity and character are not allowed to be fully effective leaders because of all the administrivia, policy, and social testbed issues that bog the military down. You see more "staff wonks" get promoted to leadership positions. So overall, I don't expect to see the kind of hell raising leaders of lore. I expect to see different leaders. Is that bad? Probably not a bad as I'm tempted to think as "effective" means you have to navigate the world to be that.

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made Aug 25 at 2018 1:32 AM

2018-08-25T01:32:03-04:00

This Question brings to mind George Patton in WW2. Yes he was an effective leader. He also got the job done. His integrity and character got him in trouble. He slapped a soldier for being a coward because he had what we call now PSTD. The soldier was in a hospital. Patton asked him why he was there. He said " General I cant I cant fight anymore. Patton slapped him pulled out his Pistol I"ll shoot you, you worthless coward. Then he told the doctor to get this man out of here away from these Hero,s.
He lost his command over it. Thought he was never going to get another command. Eisenhower Let him stew for awhile, then used him to set up a Phony Army to fool Hitler to let him think they were coming ashore at Cherbourg on D Day. Once the landing was made at Normandy. Eisenhower gave him and army to command. He was very successful but was a pain in the A--. After the war in Nov. 45 A Drunken enlisted man coming back after a night on the town hit Pattons Jeep with a deuce and a half Truck. Patton was Paraylized from the neck down. He died several weeks later. Semper Fi.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Aug 25 at 2018 12:48 PM

2018-08-25T12:48:41-04:00

And why can't you be both? Are you saying that they are mutually supporting? Gee- I found them to be so.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2018 8:31 PM

2018-08-27T20:31:47-04:00

Integrity/character is what will gain the most trust with your team and in the end make your team stronger. Doing whatever it takes to get the job done can lead you down the road of cutting regulation corners and get you in real trouble.