What is more important, your career or your integrity and honor?

2014-11-20T13:53:17-05:00

We have had many spirited debates on many controversial issues. Some have been about religion and politics, others about whether or not our C-I-C if found guilty should be apprehended or dealt with by the military. I am not trying to address these points, but want to know which is more important to you, speaking what you believe to be true or hiding behind a mask of political correctness? These discussions have brought out unnecessary personal attacks which I feel are beneath us because of our mutual service to our Country. We should be able to converse with mutual respect, honesty and integrity and quit any personal attacks or inferences that attacks have been made as a result of someone's post! And, do you feel as though being politically correct is beneficial in military and/or civilian society?

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Nov 20 at 2014 2:39 PM

2014-11-20T14:39:33-05:00

Integrity and honor beyond any shadow of a doubt. Your service is your job, your career, your livelihood. You integrity and honor is who you are as a person and a human being. I would never give up how people felt about me just to save what is ultimately a paycheck.

With that being said, I love the Army since being a hardworking man of integrity is well accepted and get me far.

Response by COL Randall C. made Nov 20 at 2014 2:40 PM

2014-11-20T14:40:47-05:00

PO1 Steven Kuhn, do you honestly expect anyone to answer the question without saying their integrity and honor is the most important?

Somehow I don't think you'll get many answers like, "My career is the most important. I cozy up to my superiors and never express a view that I think they won't like. Integrity and honor are great words for me to use, but I won't let them get in the way of doing what's right ... for the advancement of my career."

Having said that, I absolutely agree with the points you made after the question.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Nov 20 at 2014 3:07 PM

2014-11-20T15:07:26-05:00

Let me think. Retired after 21 years an E-6. You think I stepped on a few toes? LOL! Yeah I may not have been "Correct" as far as some of my Senior NCO's were concerned but I carried my head held high.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 20 at 2014 10:37 PM

2014-11-20T22:37:28-05:00

No way anyone will answer career.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 11:46 PM

2014-11-20T23:46:34-05:00

In my kitchen above the door I have this motivational inspiration hanging to see every day.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 2:23 AM

2014-11-21T02:23:54-05:00

PO1 Steven Kuhn. My patients first . . . last . . . and in between. Sandy

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Nov 21 at 2014 2:21 AM

2014-11-21T02:21:33-05:00

Integrity and honor without a doubt! I completely despise when my integrity is questioned. That has caused some...shall we say, delays in my career. I will not 'stand down' when my integrity is questioned. Call it a character flaw or maybe I am just to old and grumpy to be a old junior enlisted. I digress, my apologies...

I would rather be broke than have no integrity or honor...is that worded better? lol

Response by PO3 Brendan "Smitty" Smith made Nov 21 at 2014 7:19 AM

2014-11-21T07:19:15-05:00

I was forced out of the Navy because I refused to testify at a Captain's Mast that I saw some friends throw a rock through the window of a truck at a party. They may have done it. I just didn't see it. The Skipper tried to hang my prior alcoholic incident over me saying, if you don't testify, we'll call this a second alcoholic incident and discharge you. Well, the moment that my chain of command tried to blackmail me into falsely testifying against fellow sailors, that's when I said, fine. I'll take my discharge please.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Nov 21 at 2014 7:31 AM

2014-11-21T07:31:35-05:00

PO1 Steven Kuhn Integrity and Honor is more important. Without that you can have a job, but not a career.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 8:16 AM

2014-11-21T08:16:58-05:00

Without Integrity how can you have honor and without either your career will end in a fashion you that most don't envision.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Nov 21 at 2014 8:48 AM

2014-11-21T08:48:51-05:00

I think that first and foremost is Integrity.... doing what is right, even with nobody watching. If you have integrity, you live with honor. These 2 go hand in hand. Once you live with both integrity and honor, EVERYTHING else will fall into place....Family, Career.....everything. It takes a lot of work, but if you live with integrity and honor, you will always sleep well at night knowing that you did the right thing.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 8:54 AM

2014-11-21T08:54:28-05:00

“Tiger, one day you will come to a fork in the road and you’re going to have to make a decision about which direction you want to go. He raised his hand and pointed. “If you go that way you can be somebody. You will have to make compromises and you will have to turn your back on your friends. But you will be a member of the club and you will get promoted and you will get good assignments.” Then Boyd raised his other hand and pointed in another direction. “Or you can go that way and you can do something- something for your country and for your Air Force and for yourself. If you decide you want to do something, you may not get promoted and you may not get the good assignments and you certainly will not be a favorite of your superiors. But you won’t have to compromise yourself. You will be true to your friends and to yourself. And your work might make a difference. To be somebody or to do something. In life there is often a roll call. That’s when you will have to make a decision. To be or to do? Which way will you go?"

- Col John Boyd

Response by SFC Melker Johansson made Nov 21 at 2014 9:05 AM

2014-11-21T09:05:38-05:00

I speak my true mind and don't hide behind a mask of political correctness. What I say on here are my true opinions and feelings. I value my integrity and honor more than anything else and that has gotten me in trouble in the past. People has confused my honesty and frankness for being sarcastic.

I'm Autistic (Asperger's Syndrome) and apparently one of the personality traits for that condition is to be brutally honest, not bothering with white lies, and feeling a compulsive need to confess.

I'm even completely open about my condition despite the facts that it paints a big target on my back for MEB/PEB and subject me to people's prejudices about Autistic people.

Response by SSG Peter Ludlum made Nov 21 at 2014 9:08 AM

2014-11-21T09:08:38-05:00

Our careers are molded by all these values and we cannot have a GOOD career without them. IT all works hand in hand. It is only when we start to sacrifice any one of them to further our career that we veer off the path. It is not always easy to do the right thing rather than try the quick easy way. I raised my hand to be part of something bigger than myself. Not for money or glory. This is where our NEW military has begun to falter. We need to bring new emphasis on these simple principles before our beloved military gets turned into corporate America. If you are an NCO now it is your job to accomplish this. Us old dinosaurs did our best, now it is your turn.
Loyalty - Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers.
Duty - Fulfill your obligations.
Respect - Treat people as they should be treated.
Selfless Service - Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Honor - Live up to all the Army values.
Integrity - Do what’s right, legally and morally.
Personal Courage - Face fear, danger, or adversity [physical or moral].

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Nov 21 at 2014 10:50 AM

2014-11-21T10:50:48-05:00

My integrity and honor is more important then my career. Early in my career there was an incident and i did not want to ruffel feathers. So after that i swore i would never compromise my integrity or honor again at times it made me unpopular with some people but i did not care at the end of the day i can lay my head down and sleep. Now with having a little girl i want to raise her to understand that her integrity and honor are important no matter what is going on good or bad.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Nov 21 at 2014 12:46 PM

2014-11-21T12:46:28-05:00

My career spanned 30 years and I got tired of pushing electrons through wires within the first 10 or 12. Without Integrity I would never have been pushed by my peers to grow and excel, to take on more challenges than I though i was capable of managing. Without Honor I could have sucumbed to temptation to put my career before my Sailors, but they always came first.

I was pushed from the deckplates to lead, not from personal desire to standout and be recognized for my own accomplishments. Teams are built and lead by leaders who have integrity and sacrifice their time and sometimes their home life to build their troops and ships up. The only reason I was a successful Command Master Chief is because on Honor, Integrity and the loyalty of my Sailors.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 1:22 PM

2014-11-21T13:22:52-05:00

Honor. Integrity. Career. In that order. Most recently I have been called on the carpet for supporting a 1LT who was seriously wronged in Afghanistan. I wrote a very strongly worded letter of endorsement for him to remain in the Army and have his record cleared of some egregious and inflammatory administrative action that was taken against him when there were others who should have shouldered the blame. He was a scape goat and a head on a pike. It was an empty mission though...I knew it had no chance of being overturned as it was done by a sitting Division Commander with a significant name. I was questioned for the language I used and for writing it in the first place. I was asked why it was worth putting my reputation on the line for someone like that. My answer seemed obvious to me. If not me then who? If not for this 1LT, then for who. Why are we here as leaders? The answer..."Well, it damaged your credibility." You fight every day for what is right. No matter the consequence. Sometimes your idea of right ain't going to match your boss' idea of right...or more aptly...smart. It's then when you will have to determine what matters more to you. That 1LT's opinion of me mattered much more than my rater or senior rater's opinion of me. Still does. Might not work out for me in the end though, and that 1LT will be out of the Army soon...but I will always remember his inability to thank me for trying to catch as many bullets as I could. One got through. There's a great quote out there...don't know if it's real or not..."Once, a young man lie bleeding on the battlefield. He was screaming for his buddy. His buddy asked his officer if he could go get him and the officer said no. He went anyway. Dodging bullets and shrapnel he made it and drug his friend from the battlefield. On the way back he was shot multiple times but stumbled back into his own lines. When he arrived his officer was furious. I told you not to go...now I've lost both of you...it wasn't worth it. The Soldier cradled his friend's head in his lap and as he died he said, 'But it was, sir. Because when I got to him he said, 'Jim...I knew you'd come.'

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 1:32 PM

2014-11-21T13:32:42-05:00

Integrity, Honor, then career. You can't have honor without integrity, right?

I don't understand the black-and-white analysis though. What exactly is political correctness, PO1 Steven Kuhn? What if something you label as political correctness happens to be what someone "believe[s] to be true"?

Personal attacks, ad hominem, are never called for, but hurting someone's feelings is not necessarily an ad hominem.

Mutual respect is the operative catch phrase. There is no mutual respect possible when a member of this forum disparages homosexual Service-members, for instance. One's personal beliefs, even religious beliefs, must be left alone. But one's right to "swing" those personal moral beliefs ends when they meet the "nose" of another Service-member.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 1:59 PM

2014-11-21T13:59:54-05:00

Integrity and Honor.
Career is secondary.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Nov 21 at 2014 2:04 PM

2014-11-21T14:04:37-05:00

A man (or woman) only has their word to be measured by when it all counts. It is a hard lesson that I wish my son would learn sooner than later in life. The military has given me words to describe values and actions imparted upon me as a young man from my Uncles and Dad. Integrity and Honor are right there at the pinnacle of what a man person (gender unspecific) should be.

The career folks usually end up being toxic at at least one or every stage of leadership that they are trusted to uphold. Commanders that credit their formations with their success are often the naturals.......

Response by SSG Christopher Parrish made Nov 21 at 2014 3:24 PM

2014-11-21T15:24:44-05:00

Career all the way!

Nah, I'm just kidding. I think, for most SM, their honor and integrity are what build their career. Without them we would just be another bunch of corporate robots.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 10:11 PM

2014-11-21T22:11:02-05:00

I do not believe that anyone will admit that their career would come before integrity and honor. However, I have seen this up and down the ranks in my small time in the Army. As a leader your integrity and honor is the most important thing one can have. Once a leader loses their honor and integrity they can no longer be an effective leader. In my opinion, any leader who is focused on themselves and not on taking care of their Soldiers and accomplishing the mission has already lost the right to be called a leader.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2014 8:03 PM

2014-11-22T20:03:35-05:00

I HATE politics! I all about honor, and integrity. I did not, and would not follow an unlawful order. For me, I respect EVERYONE in the military, AND civilian. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me! If someone stabs me in the back, they are DONE! I don't care who they are, military or civilian. I am NOT afraid. I had this happen to me.

Response by SGT Jason Weisbrich made Nov 22 at 2014 8:10 PM

2014-11-22T20:10:58-05:00

Your honor and integrity are first and foremost. Careers come and go, but your reputation concerning whether you maintain your honor and integrity lasts a lifetime.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2014 10:34 PM

2014-11-22T22:34:18-05:00

To answer your question, what kind of career would you have without integrity and honor. Everyone knows your career will be defined my your love of country, devotion to duty, integrity, honor, selflessness and professionalism. I do not mind listening to a differing opinion. I might not agree with you and we may debate but I will not criticize you. I will not call you vulgar names and be derogatory. It is in these differing opinions that we as individuals can learn. So be strong in your beliefs and ideas but open your ears to listen before condemning and criticizing.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Nov 26 at 2014 4:45 PM

2014-11-26T16:45:15-05:00

I loved becoming a grunt in the 82nd, and looked forward to moving into SF. In the latter part of my assignment to the 82d we had moved from Viet Nam officers to post Viet Nam officers. There were good officers and some dysfunctional officers. We had a CO who embarked on Article 15 contests with other Company commanders. I grew up behind the Iron Curtain, so seeing the abuse of the judicial system for prurient kicks by dysfunctional people who were destroying young men's careers with this stupidity went against my grain and I began to write their defenses. The Brigade legal NCO let me know what was happening, and a group of NCO's worked together to try to defuse this atrocious behavior. I eventually lost a stripe because the CO could not force me to stop writing defenses. I also refused to call him sir, but that's another story. Eventually I became a highly respected litigation support specialist and expert witness in my civilian career - skills that are an excellent addition to our arsenal as we challenge the VA and other Agencies in their pursuit of ill-advised and illegal policies. One of our other NCO's retired as a highly decorated soldier after a 40 year career.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Dec 19 at 2014 3:51 PM

2014-12-19T15:51:05-05:00

I'm suprised that so many of these responses say that no one would put/say career first. For many individuals on rallypoint I can see this might be true, but from experience I know many leaders who will put their career above their integrity and honor anyday. I am not one of those individuals and continue to be perceived as a troublemaker for standing up for my values, but I would rather be hated by everyone then hated by myself.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Feb 18 at 2015 5:02 PM

2015-02-18T17:02:55-05:00

My integrity and honor is far more important than my career. The problem with words in a forum is that not knowing the individual allows the intent of the post to be misread or misconstrued. I know I have had quite a few heated dicussions on Rallypoint where the individual thought I was personally attacking someone. When honestly, they just did not understand the post in question. Being politically correct helps prevents these personal arguments. Once someone understands you and knows you, the need to be politically correct no longer applies. We all have different education, backgrounds, and experiences so our communications will never be perfect, but at least we are trying to understand one another.

Response by MSgt Mike Brown; MBTI-CP; MA, Ph.D. made Jun 12 at 2015 5:44 PM

2015-06-12T17:44:49-04:00

Integrity and honour -- the career will follow. Disabled veterans struggle to maintain their sense of honour, and often get side-lined. Today, I mentored a retired MGySgt, who is also a Deacon in thesis completion -- although I am in desperate need of computer assistance technology -- I helped, and suffered the eye pain and now massive headache to accompany it. Honor: I will not ask Voc Rehab again for three simple cost-effective tools to help me get back to what I do best -- research methodology and being a professor... Please see previous comments for that wonderful experience...