What is the best way for a new 2LT to counsel a platoon sergeant?

2014-03-21T09:23:13-04:00

One of the biggest challenges for a brand new 2LT is his first counseling session with a SFC who has been in the Army from 8-14 years. While the blanket list of duties that I used in 1995 is pretty straight forward, I don't think it's conducive to building the team necessary to effectively lead a platoon from the get-go. What have you seen that works best?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 9:38 AM

2014-03-21T09:38:46-04:00

Sir, I would offer that the messages the new PL should send are humility and a desire to learn and work as a team. One further point that may not be obvious to a new PL is the importance of his or her relationship with Squad- or Section-leaders.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Mar 21 at 2014 7:45 PM

2014-03-21T19:45:03-04:00

Sir, I believe the approach can be generally the same as most initial counseling; "Here is what you can expect from me..." and "Here is what I expect from you..." -- I think what really matters is the tone...<div><br></div><div>If the 2LT is coming in with "I'm just the 2LT, I expect to just basically watch you for a while, and gee whiz, I sure hope to learn!" -- Then the Platoon Sergeant will know that he's got some summer help until the next Platoon Leader.</div><div><br></div><div>If the 2LT is coming in with "I am new and don't have your experience, but I'm a quick learner and I need you to help turn me into the Platoon Leader you always thought this Platoon deserved... let's work together." -- Then the Platoon Sergeant should feel encouraged that he has a leader on his team. </div><div><br></div><div>Just my personal opinion. </div>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 8:26 PM

2014-03-21T20:26:15-04:00

Sir,

The best way for a platoon leader to have an initial counselling session is to conduct the first session in the presence of the Company Commander as the Senior Rater. The senior rater can guide the initial counselling session and show him how it should be done. Every leader will do it somewhat differently from that point on but 2LT's need a lot of professional development and I think that is a good way to start. From that point platoon leaders need to establish trust and communication with their platoon sergeants. They should make the counselling session a 2 way conversation because that platoon leader will learn much more from that NCO than the NCO will from him. The 2LT should learn everything about him then together they should set goals. Finally, once all of this is set the platoon leader should close any counselling session knowing that he appreciates and will consider the platoon sergeants recommendations on all matters but the platoon leader alone makes the final decision.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 21 at 2014 8:57 PM

2014-03-21T20:57:47-04:00

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 6:15 PM

2014-03-24T18:15:13-04:00

Senior rater (probably company commander or higher) should be available to assist the PL with preparing the form and off the PLs initial counceling should be able to base the NCOs 2166-8-1. It should be a open discussion format with ability to adjust duties and daily scope with the PSG. The last NCOER should be available along with the ERB so the PL can understand the daily scope a bit more of the PSG. It's going to come down to the PL caring about doing a good job; if a good job is done by the PL then the PSG will probably take them a bit more serious. So the Senior Rater has to play a part and now leave the PL flapping and learning on a curve. As a PSG my PLs never took my checklist to heart and had a issue building bullets in a Army style of writing format. Commanders should look to their 1SGs or SGMs to improve upon the junior officers ability to counsel the Senior NonComs in the formation that they are in charge of, personnal I believe most new LTs run to the XO who has a few NCOERs in his background and not an expert on it. I wish commanders would look more at their counterpart to produce more officer development in the formation when it comes to working with the enlisted side of the house.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Mar 24 at 2014 6:19 PM

2014-03-24T18:19:01-04:00

Very carefully, and with great trepidation!! Lol!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2014 11:27 AM

2014-12-19T11:27:47-05:00

with all the great advice in this thread, I'm just going add one more...

Do it with respect.

Response by CPT Robert Skinner made Dec 21 at 2014 12:35 AM

2014-12-21T00:35:48-05:00

LTC Havlorson,

Given that I was on both sides of the counseling coin. I agree with the white board method as I have personally seen that one used on me as a 19K platoon sergeant. However, I was stubborn in my transition, when I became a 2LT and prepared my 1st Platoon Sergeants initial counseling it was horrible. I regret it to this day, because I thought me being a prior E7 there is no way this guy was going to pull the wool over my eyes! Well needless to say it didn't go over well and I lost a lot of respect from him during that counseling. It taught me a valuable lesson in life and I have yet to repeat it.

The platoon sergeant knew I was in charge, but he also knew I needed him more than he needed me. I was in my commanders officer more than I care to admit and that was all due to the initial counseling from the beginning that cost me dearly. He didn't see me as a team player, but a self-serving jerk.

I think a thorough counseling class given by a TAC officer at BOLC would facilitate the basics of how you're to counsel your senior non-commissioned officers. This would at least give them a basic educational understanding, and at least a firm grasp on their responsibilities as a platoon leader.

I was like a bull in a china shop and that method doesn't work! I can't say that enough, you need those Sergeants to develop the team you hope to employ. That was my way, but I can at least admit it.

Good Luck to all you LTs and as always NCOs lead the way.

Response by SPC Daniel Edwards made Mar 3 at 2015 10:09 PM

2015-03-03T22:09:54-05:00

May I suggest this:

"Excuse me , could you help me with this counseling I have to do with SFC Snuffy. This is my first counseling and I don't want to come off as cocky or disrespectful."

In other words, practice, be respectful, and if necessary, ask for help from someone that has been through it before.

I always practice what I want to say to anyone (doesn't matter if it is a person of higher rank or not or even a civilian) because I have a tendency to come off a cocky even though it sounds fine to me.

Response by CPT Benjamin Wenner made Mar 4 at 2015 3:23 AM

2015-03-04T03:23:32-05:00

Sir,

Here's my recent experience (though I'm not a brand new 2LT).

I just counseled my Maintenance Control Sergeant (E7) and, although an expert and borderline stubborn leader (Type A personality), he has educated me to do a proper counseling for him. My advice to newer LTs stepping into a PL position (no matter what platoon they're in): do your NCO justice and make sure you give the proper time and effort to fill in his/her DA 2166-8-1. Apparently, any other format is not standard (MFR, word document, etc. - I'm sure we've all seen one).

- Ask that E7 if he has a copy of his previous NCOER (it's even better when it's the same position they're holding now - cross your fingers) and that can be your handrail for accuracy. Asking for input won't hurt, either.
- Know that E7's MTOE position and dig up that list of duties and responsibilities in which ever publication it's in (i.e. DA PAM 750-3 "Soldier's Guide for Field Maintenance Operations"). I even utilized ADP 6-22 "Army Leadership".
- Do your own research. There are plenty of examples on digits, paper, etc. As a leader, you have to learn to resource and network (Don't reinvent the wheel... I know. We hear it all the time). If you have a Tech (Warrant Officer), ask him/her for advice - they normally know a thing or two about NCOs to their left and right within a platoon and what they should be doing.
- Tailor in your expectations, zero tolerances, additional guidance, etc. (and be sure to add that they support and enforce the EO/EEO and SHARP programs bullet)
- Lastly, don't get aggravated if your E7 would like to recommend adjustments or suggestions. It's better to cover more, than not enough at all (as long as it corresponds to their duty position). If anything, you can change, specify, quantify, or qualify progress throughout the quarterly counselings.

That E7 is ensuring his/her career progression is square on the admin side of the house - so his/her career is in your hands. Don't let them down!

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Mar 4 at 2015 4:45 AM

2015-03-04T04:45:19-05:00

Stand at parade rest when u talking to platoon daddy....hahahahah....just joking Sir...Please forgive me

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 8:49 AM

2015-03-04T08:49:13-05:00

That counseling session should be very collaborative while setting clear expectations

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 10:38 AM

2015-03-04T10:38:36-05:00

1SG Dave Arpin speaks to his experiences, which took place in the Army Reserve. I had the benefit of working with Dave as an SMP Cadet while he was still a Platoon Sergeant, and he gracefully permitted me to take charge and lead our platoon as an Officer from day 1. The USAR is a unique creature however. Until they are promoted out of the position, Platoon Sergeants can stay in the same duty positions for many years, whereas an Officer typically only stays for 2-4 years before moving on. Granted, in contrast to Active Duty, this too seems like a long tenure, but when you're MPs in the only MP Company for 300 miles around, you're granted some latitude.

As you may imagine, this set-up can create the perfect storm that is at the heart of your topic here. Just prior to commissioning, I was informed that I would move from SFC Arpin's platoon to another platoon. Although the Platoon Sergeant was a good friend of SFC Arpin's and the relationship between the two platoons was very close, this particular NCO never hid the fact that he held little respect for Commissioned Officers in general and Lieutenants in particular. I took this news in stride. He took this news with umbrage. I chose to let him chill out, let the First Sergeant lay it down for him, and went about my business. After a few hours, I went and talked with him, one on one, where he calmly proceeded to explain how he had been burned in the past by a bad Platoon Leader. He made it clear that this was "His Platoon." After hearing him out, I told him that come next month, I wanted to work with him on making it "Our Platoon." I left it at that.

I stayed in touch with him between Drills, giving him a couple of phone calls just to discuss ideas. He was surprised by that, and quite pleased. I gave him the heads up that I had to do initial counseling for him and the Squad Leaders. He initially raised his defensive shields, saying that counseling the Squad Leaders was NCO business, but when I explained that I should rated the Squad Leaders because they rolled with me on missions, he said you're the first officer I've ever had who has ever cut my workload! From that point forward, our relationship grew stronger. Sure, we still had our disagreements as any command team will, but we were always able to resolve them.

Bottom line, it's all in how you approach the situation at the initial contact that will set the table for everything in the future. Plan accordingly!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 1:45 AM

2015-03-05T01:45:06-05:00

On his hands and knees. Just kidding.

I think a senior NCO is going to know what to expect his LT to expect. In my last unit all the four platoons had fairly good interactions but the PSG's didn't hesitate when something notoriously ill advised was about to occur. But it's a respect thing both ways. I think the PSG is good he will mentor the LT and is the LT is good he will take charge of mission planning/ other officer business.

If an officer just lets the PSG run the show they are both wrong.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 5 at 2015 1:56 AM

2015-03-05T01:56:17-05:00

The LT can do it no other way but using a DA FORM 4856 and the DA FORM 2166-8-1 NCOER counseling and support form. He or she can also have attachments. If I was the PSG, I would expect it and ask for it. It is part of their mentoring process.

Response by SGT Jason McVey made Mar 5 at 2015 3:08 PM

2015-03-05T15:08:48-05:00

Don't. Unless your prior enlisted and are a salty, and have the exp

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 3:15 PM

2015-03-05T15:15:07-05:00

How can someone new to the army counsel a seasoned vet? They can't provide mentorship. They need to outline facts based on commanders guidance. They need to steer away from "I wants". It's tough. But they also can't let the PSG bully them. They've been chosen to lead. So as a 2lt, they must be willing to learn as well. I only had one 2lt who meshed with me. The others were challenging. Funny how the one who meshed with me has been successful and the others,,, not so much. He didn't back down either. There were times i was wrong and he had to call me out on it. A good command team is a hard thing to come by. Wish there was a way that you can write a book that had all the answers.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 8:28 PM

2015-03-05T20:28:49-05:00

Sir,

In my honest opinion, what I've seen from prior 1SGs, and something that I now do as a 1SG is to take the time to talk to that new LT right away and let them know that I have an open door to discuss any issues that he or she has, and to be willing to coach, train and mentor that LT. I always talk to them right away and tell them that they're the boss, they run that platoon and there should never be any doubt of that from himself or herself, but their PSGs and other NCOs do have experience that they can learn from and that they should be willing to talk to and listen to them, but be firm when it comes to making a decision. I also talk to their PSG as the LT is coming in and let them know that they have the responsibility to load up that LTs tool bag and develop him into a leader that other enlisted Soldiers want to follow. In my opinion, the 1SG should be the person to help that LT integrate into the platoon by being an open source of advice for that LT so that he or she has a knowledgeable source to tap into from someone that isn't in their direct chain up or down. The 1SG and also the commander should be working together to mentor their LTs and NCOs. I always personally help them with their counselings and completing the NCOERs.

Response by SCPO Ron Chandler made Mar 6 at 2015 2:01 PM

2015-03-06T14:01:24-05:00

As a retired Navy senior enlisted I find it unfathomable that someone at the Platoon Sergeant level be counseled by an O-1 and an utter leadership failure of the system that promoted him to that level, not to mention the failure of his peers to straighten out the soup sandwich.

Response by CW4 Brian Haas made Mar 6 at 2015 5:16 PM

2015-03-06T17:16:20-05:00

Who is your rater? Enough said. It is laid out in doctrine...don't have to like it. I can't believe this is actually brought up as an issue...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 9:46 PM

2015-03-06T21:46:47-05:00

Sir, the 2LT should ask politely for an appointment with the SFC. If approved- the 2LT (while at parade rest) should ask the SFC for help filling out the form.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 9 at 2015 1:05 AM

2015-03-09T01:05:14-04:00

Great question - Be prepared, follow the rules, and stick to the basics. Whether event oriented, or performance...

I had to do this (negative event oriented) with an E-7 and an E-6 PSG as a PL, and at least one time at each level of command.

This is hard to do, but we have all had to do such things. I have had amazing NCOs around me my entire career, but unfortunately at each level I have had NCOs that required negative counselings and actions; it is/was never easy, but being prepared was huge help.

This is the standard:

1. Preparing for Counseling:
● Select a suitable location
● Schedule the time
● Notify the subordinate well in advance
● Organize the Information
● Outline the Counseling session components
● Plan your counseling strategy
● Establish the Right Atmosphere

2. Conduct the Counseling Session:
● Opening the session
● Developing the plan of action
● Recording and closing the session
● Follow-up

Remember, only one person is Responsible in every organization.

Response by TSgt Ryan Chrzanowski made Mar 9 at 2015 3:53 AM

2015-03-09T03:53:27-04:00

From my experience being on the receiving side, and having to council lower ranking Airmen that reported to me. A) It all depends on what the counseling session is about, B) Go into the counseling session with the mindset of approaching it how you want the remander of your working relationship to go, C) Finally ask yourself how you'd want to be approached especially by someone new in a position that may have a lot more experience than you do. Hope that belps

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 4:40 AM

2015-03-09T04:40:13-04:00

Personally, I think that the 2LT should use the PSG for what they are; a valuable source of information that could not find anywhere else.

When I finally get my chance to be a PSG (aside from acting, etc.) I will probably counsel my PL on what I expect from them, whether written or orally. Simply tell them, "this is what I expect from you. [insert list here]."

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Mar 9 at 2015 11:13 AM

2015-03-09T11:13:10-04:00

Sir, I feel what worked best between 2LTs and I was a two-way interactive conversation. One I remember most is when the LT asked me was my vision and goals were. Then, he told me his. we taught about areas we have an impact to contribute to the battalion.

I think the key is to have a partnership approach. Having an attitude of together, we make things happen and a mutual respect is huge.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Mar 9 at 2015 1:30 PM

2015-03-09T13:30:19-04:00

The PL, first of all is in Charge! Each position has a job description, lay out the job description and what you expect of the PS. At the same time of counseling, ask the PS what are the strengths and weaknesses of the Platoon. What SLs are the best, strongest and who's the screw ups. Get the PS input platoon SOPs, who's going to school, where people stand on promotions. Let the PS know you really care about the soldiers and how he is doing his job. Let the PS know he is part of the leadership team, and don't be afraid to ask his advice. Don't come off too much of "I know what I'm doing", but also seek out his/her professional opinion as PL, you're just coming in.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 2:25 PM

2015-03-09T14:25:16-04:00

Sir,

When conducting initial counselings with NCOs I tie it directly to the NCOER. That ensures that the Soldier knows exactly what he is going to be rated on. I put specific goals in the plan of action. During the session I lay out what he can expect from me as well. Employing this with 3 PSGs and now a 1SG has worked so far.

Counseling your PSG as a new PL is important to the success of the Platoon. PLs need to provide clear guidance and intent and ensure that NCO knows what is expected of him. I think it is also important to foster an environment of teamwork and mutual respect. We call them command teams for a reason.

As a brand new 2LT I received an extremely poor example of a PSG. My 1SG himself described him as lazy and nearly worthless. His peers had a similar opinion. For NCOs to speak that way about their own to a new 2LT should indicate how poor of an NCO he was. As a new PL I had to counsel him almost immediately for poor behavior. It was an uncomfortable and somewhat intimidating, but necessary event. He ended up getting 14 counseling statements during his first rating period between myself, the 1SG, and the CO. Eventually he was reduced to E6 and retired. Had I not taken the hard right his utter incompetence would've probably gotten men killed when we deployed.

Response by CW2 Fred Baker made Mar 9 at 2015 2:53 PM

2015-03-09T14:53:25-04:00

I never lead a platoon, but I have seen excellent examples of leadership. In Vietnam, we didn't have many 2LTs but a Sergeant was usually the go to guy for just about everything. Only after being kept alive by him for a while did they learn what was necessary to take care of himself and his men. Experience teaches a good school, it gives the test first and the lesson afterward. It was always better to use known experience over guesswork. An officer who masters the art of listening usually gains an advantage. As far as actual counseling goes, rank is recognized but not necessarily respected by all. Leadership is recognized and respected by everyone. It cannot be demanded, only commanded.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Mar 9 at 2015 7:18 PM

2015-03-09T19:18:52-04:00

As a medical platoon leader, I notmally andwered to the company executive officer, but on the few occasions where a 2Lt was involved, I always tried to meet him/her half way. Have regular meetings to dicuss shortcomings, achievements, or corrections needed. I must say that most respected the knowledge and experience I had, though not always agreeing, normally was settled to everyones satisfactions. Some just say, "I am in charge so I give the orders", that was when problems seemed most likely to occur.

Response by CPT Tamara Brewer made Apr 20 at 2015 10:13 AM

2015-04-20T10:13:36-04:00

Humbly!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2015 11:33 PM

2015-07-03T23:33:08-04:00

Just like any other type of counseling. He needs to sit down with the PSG and fill out the NCOER counseling and support form which lays out the expectations of the NCO and plan for professional development. Prior to that though, the PL needs to read APD 6-22, MOS Specific STP,AR 623-3, DA PAM 623-3 and AR 611-21.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2015 8:13 PM

2015-07-07T20:13:38-04:00

Sir,
The approach I took is completely unorthodox, but it is a route I recommend for EVERY new 2LT. Being that I come from a military background, I knew that it would not be appropriate to go in and explain my "expectations" due to the fact my knowledge would be unequivocal to the years of experience of the platoon sergeant. Instead, I asked the platoon sergeant for their input on what they thought was working, and what they believed some of the central areas of focus should be within the platoon. We conducted this session together in a dialog. I then used the DA 4856 to ensure everything we discussed was listed and that appropriate actions would be taken. This is definitely a great topic for discussion.
Very Respectfully,
1LT Krohn

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2015 10:45 PM

2015-07-07T22:45:11-04:00

I had a great PL who made sure that I was counseled. The first one he was pretty timid and I don't blame him. However, we sat and talked about my strengths, my weaknesses, where the platoon was, where WE wanted the platoon to go, how we were going to get there, and I showed him how to fill out the support form. From there he documented the key points of our discussion and I was more than happy to sign it. I made a point to tell him that he was the one in charge and I would support him on his decisions unless they made absolutely no sense at all. I was there for him when he failed and he was there for me for when I f&@*ed up. It is a love hate relationship but a PL must counsel his PSG!!

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jul 26 at 2015 4:03 PM

2015-07-26T16:03:43-04:00

I can't be the only one that noticed...

Response by MSgt Carl Stokes made Aug 16 at 2017 9:34 AM

2017-08-16T09:34:46-04:00

Baaaaaaahaaaahaha- ___________DONT!

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Apr 14 at 2019 9:26 AM

2019-04-14T09:26:12-04:00

We had a MSgt in my unit who'd been RIFd going for major, trust me, he counseled ms, though ji obv perceive your question of course....

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Apr 14 at 2019 9:26 AM

2019-04-14T09:26:40-04:00

I meant me, typo....

Response by SFC George Smith made Apr 15 at 2019 12:00 AM

2019-04-15T00:00:57-04:00

The Last 2 Lt's That Counseled Me in 99... Were Not Even Born When I Has 5 years in the service … They had the company commander do it … he had been my team leader 3 years earlier...... Thanks for the Share

Response by Maj John Bell made Jul 31 at 2020 2:27 PM

2020-07-31T14:27:51-04:00

Small Unit Leadership; A Commonsense Approach - By Col. Dandridge Malone, US Army.

Response by SFC Aubrey Campbell made Jul 31 at 2020 8:46 PM

2020-07-31T20:46:40-04:00

As a platoon sergeant (with more experience), I always let my new 2LT’s practice on me first. After that, I asked for permission to speak. I would say, “Sir, you and I have to take care of this platoon!” I always had a great relationship with the LTC’s, Majors, and CO’s. They would give me tips and guidance on how a particular LT. What’s best is that they are accountable for their position. I come from the “Old School,” so some of you know what I mean when I say, “ You gotta do what you gotta do!” God Bless you all!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2020 7:33 AM

2020-08-03T07:33:39-04:00

Probably a little different for me than most. I commissioned at 35 through ROTC after 12 years prior-enlisted experience making it up to E-6 myself. I was probably one of the few 2LTs older than their PSG. We were actually a month apart, so the same age, but I was older, as he would constantly remind me later. :)

I did my research on the guy, talked to his former CDR, XO, and PL and went into the meeting with respect. Every PSG is going manage their troops differently. (Yes, the troops belong to the PSG, not you. They spend waaay more time with them than you will.) He said sir a lot and kept me from looking like an idiot (probably a whole additional duty in itself) which I greatly appreciated. Hopefully by the time I take command, he'll be my 1SG.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2020 7:12 PM

2020-08-05T19:12:01-04:00

I showed them the counseling I received from my commander and explained my expectations. I used that to build their counseling statement so there were not any issues when I presented it.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2020 8:07 PM

2020-08-22T20:07:17-04:00

There are a ton of fantastic responses to this thread. I'll add my input and apologies if double (or triple) tapping as I'm sure I did not read all the comments.
1) As officers, we have the "Big R" responsibility. Plain and simple. My first day deployed as a 2LT, my Company Commander said I had the responsibility for all the good, bad, and ugly. Period! And that needs to be loud and clear on the 4856.
2) Now, the nuance. Each Officer and their Senior Enlisted counterpart must work as a team and joined at the hip Battle Buddies. The PL and PSG, the CO CDR and 1SG, BN CDR and CSM, and so on. And same with the Staff Sections. As a BDE S-1, I should have the same relationship with my MSG. That partnership should be explained in the 4856, working together is the norm, counsel and mentor each other. The Senior Enlisted should be ok with grabbing the collar before that officer walks off the cliff (My 1SG did this to me a couple times as a CO CDR). But at the end of the day, the final decision rests with that officer. And that Senior NCO should both respect AND expect that!

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Sep 18 at 2020 9:27 AM

2020-09-18T09:27:49-04:00

As an E-6 I was a Tank Commander, Platoon Sgt, and Platoon Leader; in Germany.
I went up and down the ladder for 3 years.
As an E-7 I was a detachment commander.
But the most fun I had was when I was a 1SG and 2 lts tried to tell me what to do and how to do it.
;)

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Sep 18 at 2020 9:35 AM

2020-09-18T09:35:38-04:00

Very carefully.
As an E-6 in Germany I was a tank commander, platoon sergeant, and platoon leader; I went up and down the ladder for 3 years.
As an E-7 I was a detachment commander.
As an E-8 I was a 1SG.
(something about dragons and being crunchy and tasty with ketchup comes to mind)
;)

Response by SSG Harry Herres made Sep 19 at 2020 10:41 PM

2020-09-19T22:41:44-04:00

Don't listen and you won't become a leader, only a know it all! Learn then lead, they will follow only those who know what will keep them alive! Those that do the job only believe those that walk the walk, not talk the talk! Been there done it. Great leaders follow better leaders!

Response by CW3 Charles Morris made Sep 20 at 2020 6:53 PM

2020-09-20T18:53:25-04:00

Communications is a two-way street. The initial counseling between platoon leader and platoon sergeant should set mutual expectations. We both have our respective lanes -- responsibilities -- and need to understand that it takes a team to succeed and only one to fail.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2020 6:53 PM

2020-09-22T18:53:58-04:00

The 2LT never counsels a SFC. Lol (kidding). First both must understand experience vs inexperienced. The SFC understands the rank situation more than the LT. (Some new LT have been enlisted and possibly went to OCS or Green to Gold). Shan’t matters most is the mutual respect and understanding. We both have a job to do so let’s work together and make it happen. The best officers are trained by the best non commissioned officers. Again I’m kidding. Give each other mutual respect, back each other, this is a crucial point in both careers.

Response by CMSgt Donald ONeill made Sep 22 at 2020 9:43 PM

2020-09-22T21:43:46-04:00

The NCO's first priority is to show respect to the Lt in front of the troops so they also show respect . The Lt must understand that he must lead and that is where the NCO comes in and helps the Lt with decisions and getting his feet grounded with all of his troops . A NCO got his stripes for taking care of those under him and a good Lt will also learn the same . When a squad or company fails they all fail learning to pull for each other and all will succeed .
In Vietnam I got a new captain as my boss and I was short with less then 30 days . He gave me a order that I thought was dangerous and tried to tell him how I would do it and he said point blank . Are you refusing a direct order , I kept my mouth shut and headed for "top" the Sgt Major . Top said to me , follow me we walked to the captains office and top said stand at attention Capt. The captain stood at attention and top told him to follow me around and watch what and how I do things and maybe you might make it home also . From that day on I never would under estimate a E-9 and his power .

Response by PO1 Mike Wallace made Sep 23 at 2020 10:11 AM

2020-09-23T10:11:00-04:00

Create an atmosphere of trust with respect both directions. I had JO's come in filled with an attitude of superiority and there time with us was difficult. Others came in respecting people but at the same time making their expectations clear. Those people got the support of the enlisted folks and their time was a lot easier and succeeded really well even long after they left us.

Response by COL Cedrick Farrior made Sep 23 at 2020 11:53 AM

2020-09-23T11:53:26-04:00

I recommend you take the opportunity to sit down with the first sergeant prior to your counseling with your new platoon sergeant Your first sergeant will appreciate your approaching them and seeking their advice. As you cancel you should ensure that the session is both give and take about expectations in both your roles. It’s also critical that you do follow up counseling as required to ensure you maintain an effective line of communication.

Response by LTC Chuck Haeflinger made Sep 23 at 2020 8:58 PM

2020-09-23T20:58:13-04:00

Yours is an insightful and mature inquiry, LT. Consider privately consulting a seasoned sergeant major for his/her insights on such a very delicate topic first. Also, try to maintain the subject NCO's anonymity as mush as possible. Give it a try.

Response by SFC Dennis Yancy made Sep 24 at 2020 1:01 PM

2020-09-24T13:01:43-04:00

Be Honest. This plt sgt can help you be or not be successful and most of all remember plt sgts do not need you to run the platoon.

Response by 1SG Brian Emmert made Sep 24 at 2020 3:06 PM

2020-09-24T15:06:15-04:00

I had several PLs come through my company and generally the best course of action was for the 1SG and CO to counsel with the LT to familiarize them with their mission and all the working parts of the unit Usually this removed any perceived animosity from either side in the counseling session after the LT was allowed to proceed.

Response by Maj Michael Blakemore made Sep 24 at 2020 5:19 PM

2020-09-24T17:19:59-04:00

This is actually a very important topic and can be pivotal in how young officers grow up and learn to interact with their SNCOs in the long term. I am a bit biased since I was a SNCO before I was a 2nd Lt but the way I approached it was with respect and the intent to learn and grow on both sides. The absolute worst thing the officer can do is come in with no experience or frame of reference and attempt to move all the furniture around. That is true of any rank in any command I have ever been part of. You cannot alienate the people you are in charge of and responsible for and then expect to be recognized as a leader. Conversely the worst thing the SNCO can do is to shut them out and not educate or support their officers. It creates a conflict within the unit, leads to a lack of unity, and a loss of esprit de corps. As a new officer in any command you must establish an open and interactive relationship with your SNCOs. That doesnt matter if you are the CO or 2nd Lt. Ultimately you are in charge and you are responsible, but you cant do anything on your own.

Response by 1SG Mitchell Smith made Sep 26 at 2020 12:48 PM

2020-09-26T12:48:02-04:00

Sir,

Whatever you say it has to be in writing. Just because the season PLT SGT has been in a while doesn't mean he/she doesn't make mistakes.

As the Col stated above give him what you expect as a senior enlisted advisor and as a leader of soldiers and if he fails in any aspect of this - again it must be in writing. If not you will not have a leg to stand in when its time to rate his performance.

Plus, to be successful as a PLT LDR you and he must be on the same page.

Good luck!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2020 1:08 PM

2020-09-26T13:08:00-04:00

This photo looks like a SHARP complaint in the making

Response by Capt Phil Williams made Oct 1 at 2020 9:09 PM

2020-10-01T21:09:02-04:00

The first thing is that his Platoon Sgt probably knows more than he does. He should not talk down to his Plt Sgt. I know that on more than one occasion my Plt Sgt kept me out of trouble, and he was my link to my Platoon for training, inspections, tractor Maintenance (LVTs). The question is why does his Platoon Sgt need counseling.
Semper FI

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Oct 6 at 2020 2:48 PM

2020-10-06T14:48:18-04:00

I strongly recommend the Sergeant First Class being canceled to do his utmost to keep a serious expression on his face and try not to snicker or break out laughing.

Response by SGT Randall Smith made Oct 22 at 2020 11:28 AM

2020-10-22T11:28:16-04:00

Our CO when I was in Germany was a 1st LT. He counseled me after my 1st Article 15. I had been there 3 months and got into a fight with a Spc5. I accepted the 1st Sgt's punishment and he knew how to give a counseling. He chewed me a new butt and I spent 4 weekends buffing floors. The Spc 5 would not take the TOP's punishment so the CO busted him down to E4 for 6 months. When I reported to my new company 10 months later in Soc Trang, Vietnam, I was supprised to see the same "First Sgt.". He ran a tight company and anyone with a problem could go to him. The CO had more to do than everyday little stuff. Plus he loved to drink.

Response by MSG Brenda Neal made Oct 22 at 2020 11:22 PM

2020-10-22T23:22:52-04:00

Why would someone with that many years service need counseling? Is that the right word to use for what sounds like building up repor as a unit or putting the man in his place? I'm grouchy tonight so I'm taking the negative. Maybe he needs to just stand there and listen. If he learns something, he won't stay a 2Lt forever.

Response by SFC Stephen Everett made Oct 23 at 2020 10:02 AM

2020-10-23T10:02:15-04:00

I remember my new 2LT, we shook hands and had a brief Conversation from where are you from, what school you attend to, etc. But when it came down to my job and responsibilities as a Platoon Sergeant. We have gone out to lunch to learn each other’s values and expectations. Even though, the 2LT will counseled that Platoon Sergeant. You need that Clerical of understanding how to manage your soldiers both leaders need to talk and have that understanding. Guarantee, when it comes down to that counseling, it would come out with ease on both ends. Best of luck!

Response by CSM William DeWolf made Oct 25 at 2020 7:41 PM

2020-10-25T19:41:59-04:00

My view is the reverse! The SFC should be counseling the 2LT!

Response by PFC John Yaws made Oct 27 at 2020 2:55 PM

2020-10-27T14:55:09-04:00

Realize your limitations and inexperience abd defer to his counsel. That way, if he gets you killed, you died doing the right thing.

Response by LTC Frank Prautzsch made Oct 27 at 2020 9:23 PM

2020-10-27T21:23:44-04:00

Four key points (which by the way goes both ways)
1. Honest and effective communications
2. Share bad news and issues before they blow up. Hiding them only amplifies the opportunities for bigger problems.
3. Both of you need to live by "Mission First-People Always". Focus on what matters, but ALWAYS take care of all the troops...particularly junior enlisted.
4. Share mutual trust and respect

Response by SP5 Derick Johnsohne made Oct 28 at 2020 2:19 AM

2020-10-28T02:19:16-04:00

i havent been plt ldr nor plt sgt, but how about this : (firmly not aggressively) 'Sergeant i need your experience to learn about my job and yours ... ' ? easier for me to say than do, i havent been in leadership position .

Response by 1SG Brian Holt made Oct 28 at 2020 2:13 PM

2020-10-28T14:13:19-04:00

I can not imagine a 2LT counseling a PSG... MAYBE an 01E. If the PSG is worth their salt, he or she will be counseling and mentoring the junior officer.

Response by SFC Erin Barnett made Oct 28 at 2020 3:50 PM

2020-10-28T15:50:06-04:00

The PLT SGT is responsible but the 2LT is accountable. The 2LT needs to make sure the SGT understands they are going to trust them but that they will also question them. Do not let the PLT SGT run the show. I had a young LT who's career I blame myself for ending. I considered myself a very good NCO, to the point that this LT never questioned me. He always excepted my paperwork, explanations, and decisions. He was promoted into a Company Commander position in the BN, however his new 1SG was NOT of the greatest caliber. He ended up being relived due to some decisions the 1SG made and didn't inform him of.

From then on, with a new LT, I would present the issues, several possible courses of actions, and talk through the decision making process with them. Most of the time, they would come to the same decision I would have made on my own.

When they left my care, I wanted to to learn 1 critical thing, no mater who they are or how good they seam, "Trust, but verify".

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Oct 28 at 2020 6:06 PM

2020-10-28T18:06:28-04:00

The underlying principle is mutual respect. Discuss the platoon more than individual performance. The platoon sergeant knows more about the organization than the new PL ever will. Ask about unit strengths and weaknesses. Talk about how you, the officer, can best support the platoon sergeant. What top cover does he or she need? Ask how to improve on the platoon’s weaknesses. Listen to his or her plan. DeveLop performance standards from that plan. End with a good natured request for the sergeant to help you stay out of trouble.

Response by Neal Chamberlain made Oct 30 at 2020 10:17 PM

2020-10-30T22:17:28-04:00

In 2006, my daughter got her "butter bars". When I told a co-worker who had been in the USMC (enlisted), he told me the best conversation between a new 2LT and a SFC was "Do you need me to do anything, SGT?". The test of her survival skills was being dropped into a National Guard unit that was going through "reorganization", which meant she was the command onsite. When she told me about that, she told me she sought out the oldest SGT as a mentor. (she had gone from spec to OCS, so she had a head start on relating).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2020 10:35 PM

2020-11-04T22:35:41-05:00

I had one really awesome experience being counseled by my platoon leader when I was a platoon sergeant. He asked me for advice from me to conduct my initial counseling. I gave him the counseling I used for the squad leaders and told him he could use that as a base document but to taylor it specifically to my duties and his expectations. Once he was ready to give the counseling, I gave him feedback on better ways to deliver the counseling as well as some minor revisions. In the end, we both felt confident that my duties and his expectations had been well outlined. I did not feel spoken down to and he felt far more confident about counseling NCO’s after that.

Response by MSgt Allen Chandler made Nov 9 at 2020 11:21 PM

2020-11-09T23:21:25-05:00

If you’re a second lieutenant and you have an NCO that you think needs counseling. Be very careful. You may be right, you may be in the right, but it’s gonna be very easy for you to screw this up. I hope you have other officers with a little bit of time under their belt that you can go and talk to them and talk this out before you start this counseling session. Remember this NCO deserves the respect of his or her rank just as you do. Any counseling session starts with a clear list and understanding of what you want to talk about and what you want to retrieve before you even start the conversation.

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Nov 13 at 2020 1:38 PM

2020-11-13T13:38:30-05:00

I’d have a private conversation with the 1st Sargent, then do the paperwork and either have the 1st Sgt there or maybe the Captain.

Response by LCDR Howard Tillison made Dec 3 at 2020 10:34 AM

2020-12-03T10:34:04-05:00

The 2nd LT should listen closely and take the suggestions of the platoon sergeant. The sergeant got to that position by performing well, and unless the sgt is breaking some reg or other misconduct, learning from him is the best thing to do.

Response by Cpl Geoff Smith made Dec 4 at 2020 6:00 PM

2020-12-04T18:00:59-05:00

Very carefully

Response by SSgt Michael Wueschinski made Dec 6 at 2020 9:59 PM

2020-12-06T21:59:04-05:00

They dont need to.lead more yhen themselves for atleast4 years. How many have gotten soldiers, marines, sailors and air force personale dead. They need more then college. It blows my mind going to college makes you a better soldier. What a joke. How can they still think this sfter 300 years?0

Response by Maj Dale Smith made Dec 8 at 2020 2:05 PM

2020-12-08T14:05:37-05:00

Unless there is a flagerant violation of some regulation, the 2LT should observe the SFC's behavior and actions and if the 2LT believes there is a violation of anything, seek council with the Company commander before engaging the SFC. The officer has theory and the SFC has practical application. There is a happy medium between the two. If we are talking career paths and military education, the 2LT can sit one-on-one as someone who is 23 years old, and ask the 32 year old SFC what (s)he can do to help him get to the SFC's objective.

Response by SSG(P) Danielle Birtha made Dec 8 at 2020 6:32 PM

2020-12-08T18:32:15-05:00

hahaha... given the butter bars I worked under as a Platoon Sargent... a 2Lt should NEVER come off as anything less that a ROOKIE with NO experience or knowledge of REAL MILITARY LEADERSHIP.
2nd Lt's who get in the face of their experienced Platoon Sargents can expect an attitude...
especially if it undermines the authority of that Sargent with their soldiers.
Platoon and Squad Sargents claims responsibility for their soldiers, and will be ROYALLY pissed if that Lt gets that Sargent's soldiers killed with inexperienced stupidity of "I AM IN CHARGE - DO WHAT I SAY!"
Too many good soldiers die needlessly because some new officer has an I AM GOD power complex >(
John Wayne Lieutenants die early, and needlessly... and take soldiers that would have lived with them. LISTEN TO YOUR EXPERIENCED NCOS!!!
Throwing bodies at a machine gun nest to get a posthumous medal is STUPID!
Throw grenades... rockets... air strikes... NOT BODIES!
Bodies only stop bullets... and die.
for the record... I never had an issue with a 1st Lt... only the golden bar heroes.
If you live to be a 1st Lt... you'll have it figured out who is the Sargent, and who is the leader ;)
My worst CO was a Captain who never got past leading as a 2LT...
Thank you for your service Captain Arron.
RIP

Response by SMSgt Sheila Berg made Dec 23 at 2020 2:37 PM

2020-12-23T14:37:19-05:00

Get advice from the First Sergeant, consult UCMJ.

Response by SFC Walt "Butch" Deal made Dec 25 at 2020 10:44 AM

2020-12-25T10:44:12-05:00

Why on earth would a 2Lt attempt to council a PSG? The 2Lt is there to be trained, He doesn't get to council the trainer.

Response by LTC Charles T Dalbec made Jan 11 at 2021 1:10 PM

2021-01-11T13:10:35-05:00

Find out about his family and education background from his personnel file and then slowly begin discussions with your platoon/squad etc.

Response by SFC Richard Bensen made Jan 19 at 2021 6:48 PM

2021-01-19T18:48:35-05:00

In my day it was usually the other way around. However that said...It's generally done in private or out of earshot of their subordinates .

Response by 1SG Steven Malkowski made Jan 20 at 2021 10:31 AM

2021-01-20T10:31:59-05:00

During a thirty year career on both active duty and National Guard service, I was on both sides of this coin. After six years of enlisted time (active duty MP and NG recruiter, attaining the rank of SSG), I got commissioned as a 2LT in the Infantry. Seeing how I was going into CA from CS and CSS branches, I realized I had a lot to learn. I was fortunate to have two good PSG's in my first company who mentored me. Often I took their advice as they were both Vietnam combat veterans. We did disagree at times but they were professional and realized I also had to follow command guidance. As I moved up from PL to XO then company commander, I continually sought out experienced NCO's to vet my decisions at every level. Later, after reverting back to the enlisted side, I had young officers to mentor myself. I always let them know that I walked in their shoes at one time, but also that any ultimate decision or order was their responsibility. As an NCO again, I generally had very good relationships with my officers based on mutual respect. There was only one instance when I had to tell an officer what to do when when I was company 1SG and I had a less than 2 year TIG 2LT as acting company commander at annual training. There was just no way of getting around his inexperience than to take him aside in private and admonish him for something he did or a decision he made. I was always respectful, but firm, and explained to him the bad things that would happen if he did things his way. In any case, mutual respect is the key.

Response by CPT Steve Williams made Jan 21 at 2021 12:39 PM

2021-01-21T12:39:56-05:00

All the responses seem to assume that the brand new 2LT and the experienced SFC are working in a peacetime environment. The challenge is when you have a newly assigned 2LT assuming command of a combat platoon. I'm thinking particularly of Vietnam where there were frequent casualties among platoon leaders. Another factor in Vietnam was the relative young age and inexperience of even the platoon sergeants. When I assumed command of an infantry rifle company at the age of 24, the only person older than me was the 38-year old First Sergeant. Counseling in a combat environment is a totally different prism.

Response by Capt Raymond Lewis made Jan 21 at 2021 3:59 PM

2021-01-21T15:59:37-05:00

In the Marine Corps, a brand new 2nd Lt would be very very wise to have a meeting with the GySgt and discuss any problem with him. I found that the GySgts (E-7) run the Marine Corps. They could make that young butter bar's life hell. The Gunny would take care of "counseling" any lower ranking NCOs. I was a FAC (Forward Air Controller) with 2/7 in Vietnam and saw how smooth things went with a the Gunny working with the Lts. That Gunny can keep your butt alive and will die for his men!

Response by SPC Roger Opfer made Jan 21 at 2021 5:28 PM

2021-01-21T17:28:28-05:00

You have more than enough input to decide what your going to do. Good Luck

Response by CMSgt Marshall Ray made Jan 21 at 2021 5:57 PM

2021-01-21T17:57:36-05:00

What type of counseling are you talking about

Response by SGT Joseph Alanzo made Jan 21 at 2021 6:34 PM

2021-01-21T18:34:06-05:00

fine of $200. and a ar 15

Response by SSgt Scotty Marks made Jan 21 at 2021 9:54 PM

2021-01-21T21:54:46-05:00

"If you make me look bad I'll kill you. Dismissed!" -2ndLT Iforgethisname, USMC

Response by PFC Timothy Fleming made Jan 21 at 2021 10:42 PM

2021-01-21T22:42:56-05:00

The 2LT should act like an Officer and the SFC should act like and NCO and both of them should grow up and stop playing Barbie and Ken! SMFH.

Response by SGT Stan Setliff made Jan 22 at 2021 12:32 PM

2021-01-22T12:32:06-05:00

Stay away from the "here I come to save the day!" attitude. Definitely not all, but I ran into a few of those in my short time.

Response by SSgt Phil Sutherland made Jan 22 at 2021 2:56 PM

2021-01-22T14:56:58-05:00

One thing being overlooked is the assistance and advice of the Lieutenant's leader. I would seek out the officer above for advice on how to handle the meeting, perhaps even sitting in the first meeting.

Response by SPC Cory Thomson made Jan 23 at 2021 5:57 AM

2021-01-23T05:57:31-05:00

I can’t speak with experience from an officer’s POV. But hopefully my story will be a little bit of help. The greatest officer I ever had was my first Company Commander at my first duty station: Ft Benning GA. Kelly Hill. (Also the best First Sgt I ever had.) My Captain was a former Spec ops officer who had to reclass due to injury, and though he was not able to make special forces he was still always in the front of the formation on runs, grabbing the guidon and doing laps around us perfectly ‘healthy’ soldiers. He installed a sound system in his hummvee and would blast Metallica, he got us loaded into trucks before pt took us out to the woods and had us do pt in a river, we had to climb down a hill to get there, and on the way back he had us fill 5 gallon water jugs and work together to get them up the side of the hill. As they got to the top he opened them up and poured them on us as we tried getting the rest of them up. When we got back we looked like we had fought a mud monster. He would do stuff like this all the time. He had my utmost respect and loyalty. After my first deployment we were in the field training the newbies as to how we did things. Every thing was ate up because the new people were trying to enforce their way onto a group of people who had already been together in the shit for real. I had been awarded for my design and implementation of the entrapment and front gate of our AO. I was our designated .50 cal gunner and had been for a long time. When a brand new butter bar came up to my area while our work crew was on 50/50 working/chow-pulling guard duty. She wanted to know about the front gate and see our sight plan for lines of fire and etc etc. well someone way above me decided to put my gate on the side of the field that literally butted a small mud road and impenetrable woods for a 100 miles. So my site plan was less than helpful and completely worthless as you couldn’t see 10 feet and would need a MOAB to dent the trees. She wasn’t happy we didn’t jump to attention and she was less happy when we didn’t salute. If you have never dug more than an inch in GA then you should know it’s the crappiest hardest stickiest mud from the pits of hell, we were tired and supposed to be “training like we fought” you don’t salute in the field, you don’t salute on a work detail, and you don’t salute when on chow. She didn’t like my attitude when I told her the gate was stupid and wasn’t how it would be set up on deployment. She asked how I knew, and I told her that I was the one who designed it and carried it and ran it in the real world and I would never have set it halfway around the entire company and point it out into oblivion away from the avenue of approach. It was stupid and a waste of time and completely horrible training for the new guys who were supposed to be learning the way we fought. She stormed off and some time later I got summoned to the Capt’s tent. He was completely understanding and knew right away that while I was right I still had to respect her rank and authority. He chuckled and said if she wants to get shot downrange then go ahead and salute her. He sent me back to my gate but I felt understood and that he had my back. Later when she returned I noticed a definite attitude change and felt that she had also learned a lesson from the Capt. I’ve always respected people who lead from the front, who show they actually care, and make sure that the lower enlisted aren’t treated like crap in pursuit of appeasing the higher ups. I’ve had every type of leader, some id follow into the jaws of death and others I’d be more than happy to put a round through their eyes. True leaders inspire greatness and respect and loyalty and shitty people get shitty results. Like a shit magnet. Hope that I have at least given you something to think about.

Response by SPC Matt Ovaska made Jan 23 at 2021 6:11 AM

2021-01-23T06:11:08-05:00

i was up for OCS in basic. I turned it down. 2LTs (90 day wonders) had a life span, on the average of 2 weeks, when deployed to Vietnam. I don't think the counselling sessions went to well. Just sayin.

Response by COL Bill Gross made Jan 23 at 2021 9:38 PM

2021-01-23T21:38:11-05:00

The most awkward situation I found myself that kind of matches this happened during the recent unpleasantness in Southeast Asia. I was a newly minted CPT, Asst. S3 of an Engineer Battalion in the Mekong Delta. We had a MSG in the 3 shop who was having marital issues with a wife back in CONUS. It fell upon me to counsel in this. There I was a 22 year old single fellow who had not yet been near anything approaching a state of marital bliss trying to work with this Senior NCO to get his marital problems squared away. It got resolved, I can't recall how at the time, but I am still amazed that if fell to me to sort it out.

Response by CPT Jeffrey Minch made Jan 25 at 2021 2:18 AM

2021-01-25T02:18:42-05:00

Interesting question that has brought a lot of good answers. I was a VMI educated civil engineer, combat engineer officer, Airborne Ranger whose father was a Command Sgt Mjr who had been commissioned in WWII in Italy. My mother was in the Army in WWII. I grew up on Army posts and naturally respected senior enlisted men.

First thing I did was never ever use the word "counsel" when it related to a platoon sergeant. I was no shy retiring flower, but I knew I didn't know my ass from first base when it came to actual soldiering. I knew I couldn't "counsel" a platoon sergeant with 10+ years in the service. I was a green 2nd Lt. Know who you are.

My father had counseled me that the second I ever received an order from the company commander to go to my plt sgt alone, tell him the order, and discuss it.

Remember the engineers are usually building floating bridges, crossing rivers, building fortifications, fighting like infantry, blowing stuff up, building air strips, operating heavy equipment, and doing something that had a little bit of technique to it.

I would ask the platoon sergeant, "Ever done this before?"

He would then tell me the hundreds of times, the tens of different units, and the different continents and whether it was in peacetime or combat. I would listen respectfully.

Then, I would ask him, "What's the best way you've ever seen it done." Maybe I had the humility to ask the right way, but by doing that I got the platoon sergeant's fingerprints on the murder weapon. I also acted like a team player, not a know-it-all ring knocker.

Then, when we did it, I praised those who did a great job in person and we debriefed thereafter. We talked about what went well, what did not go so well. I did not counsel the platoon sergeant. I debriefed the team.

We did things like cross the Imjin and bridge the Rhine.

Being a know nothing 2nd Lt platoon leader is a terminal condition. It took me six months, but I learned my craft and still did it the same way. Just like I always used the 5-paragraph field order for all the time I was in the Army.

It sounds corny to say, but it was always about my stealing my platoon sergeants' experience. I used them to learn my trade. In return, I shot straight with them. They shot straight with me.

I used some Socratic method, "What do you think went wrong today?" Learned that at VMI.

When I was a little salty, I exerted my power, but I never let anybody see the boot marks. One day in Korea, we were taking out minefields up by the DMZ. It was cold, icy, wet. I made the platoon get on their bellies and probe. Talk about being an unpopular asshole. Cold as Hell.

The platoon sergeant encouraged me to let the men use the mine sweepers. I said, "No. The ground might be frozen in some places and I don't trust those mine sweepers." Something just didn't feel right.

The unit next to me managed to get a few men killed when they were using mine sweepers and missed some mines. It was a horrific mess.

That night the platoon sergeant found me and said, "You made the right call, sir. I wanted you to know that. Thank you."

I have always thought that was the day I actually became a platoon leader. Up until then it was his platoon and I was a novitiate. After that, I was the platoon leader and he did everything possible to make me a better one.

You have to park the ego in the military and focus on the results. I think maybe it's easier in the combat engineers because so much is mission oriented.

Thanks for listening. Always respect and listen to men who have more experience than you do until you become one of them. God bless the combat engineers. God bless the Army. God bless America. And, God bless you.

Out.

Response by SGT Jd Cannon made Jan 25 at 2021 10:19 PM

2021-01-25T22:19:16-05:00

Watch “Heartbreak Ridge” and get back to me.

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Feb 14 at 2021 6:30 PM

2021-02-14T18:30:15-05:00

I’d consult with a Senior Officer for recommendations. Sometimes By The Book commanding and counseling only pisses people off. Not to belittle any rank, but, counseling is like talking to your child. Use discretion and tact, and counsel in accordance to the “crime”.

Response by SPC Timothy Coleman made Feb 26 at 2021 6:56 AM

2021-02-26T06:56:56-05:00

First. Document your issue with the Platoon Sergent. Next, Consult with the First Sergent, to get the best way to approach the Platoon Sergent on this particular issue. 2LT's have Legal Authority, but no experience and no Natural Authority. Unless they were Prior Enlisted. 2LTs need to use the Enlisted Chain of Command as one of their tools, like a set of training wheels. When you can place yourself in the shoes of the person you ace counseling, with empathy and true concern, then you are on your way to create Natural Authority, The key Ingredient for ALL good leaders. Give the Platoon Sergent all of the respect that you would give Flag Officer, and your enlisted will follow you. As a Spec4, I have seen too many 2LTs enter my company, fresh out of Academy, and Overly Eager Power Tripping over the Lower Enlisted. And Not knowing what their are doing. And almost getting killed at an arms range, because they refused to take any technical instruction from the Company Armorer. Which was me at the time. Why would a 2LT ever listen to a Spec4, who has been managing the arms room for three years? So, please treat your enlisted with THE Utmost respect. Just because you have a college degree, And an Officer Commission, and Legal Authority, do not power trip on your rank, just because you can. If you do, then you are just cutting off your own legs to your military career.

Response by SCPO Ken Badoian made Mar 19 at 2021 12:48 PM

2021-03-19T12:48:32-04:00

I ASSume in the Army the is a company sergeant with two platoon sergeants under him or her. Best course of action go thru the company Saragent, with this cavetat, if the butter bar is prior enlisted she or he can sit the person down ... but still I like to follow the CofC. In the Navy Chiefs, 7, 8, and 9's mess separate from other enlisted. The system makes for a more cohesive unit of senior enlisted and together can bring a group counselling effect. If not the senior command enlisted can do her or his thing. Of course gross violations go up the chain of command but I lead by solving a problem, including counselling at the lowest level. MMCS(SW(SS) USN Ret.

Response by SPC David Young made Apr 13 at 2021 1:50 AM

2021-04-13T01:50:47-04:00

At Fort Campbell, we had a newly commissioned 2LT come into the dining facility and announce "I'm the new Battalion Food Service Officer!"
He makes his way into the main office which is shared by our two senior NCO's (E7 & E6) and a promotable E4 who worked as our office clerk. He starts cleaning out assistant Mess Sergeant's desk and said " This is my desk now!" The fun started about 5 minutes later when SSG Bates (the effected NCO) walked in and found this green-as-grass butter bars cleaning out his desk!
Not the best way for a young Officer to make a first impression..

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 13 at 2021 6:33 PM

2021-04-13T18:33:38-04:00

SFC Doe. I have studied the Principles of War, how to write OPORDs, infantry tactics, the Army Values, military history, and read about outstanding leaders like General Joshua Chamberlain. I am in charge and will lead from the front. You better support me or I will give you a bad NCOER. Got it SFC Doe?