What is the Civilian Equivalency of Military Rank?

2014-06-19T16:27:23-04:00

It seems to me that unless you spent a number of years in the military, regardless of branch, and separated/retired as an officer/senior NCO, it is often difficult to get a serious look for management positions.
As an E-5 or E-6, you have been through leadership schools (i.e. WLC and BNCOC) and have leadership experience. Many times, that leadership is in a forward line unit or in a deployed environment. You understand how to lead effectively while accomplishing the mission and maintaining welfare and morale.
Yet the civilian world typically looks right past that and puts a young college graduate in the leadership position, effectively saying that a classroom education is more valuable than real world experience.

This may sound like sour grapes on my part, but it isn't. I have been blessed with a great career, after I separated.
I am just curious what others think about the topic.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Jun 19 at 2014 5:18 PM

2014-06-19T17:18:34-04:00

As an Army veteran (E4) when I got out of the Army in 2002 I was lucky enough to land a job with a major department store in logistics. I worked in supply and logistics during my last 3 years service. However due to physical disabilities I had to give that job up. I started attending college on the post 9/11 GI Bill and earned an AAS in Chemical Addictions Counseling and Treatment. Once again I found a job with little difficulty, however, once again my past in the military caught up to me and I went off the deep end and lost the job due to PTSD. While these were contributing factors to my unemployment the fault was all mine as I am solely responsible for my actions. Since I lost the job in the treatment facility I have been unable to find gainful employment, thankfully I receive VA disability which helps to pay the majority of my household bills. My life is what I have made it, and as such only I am to blame for my problems.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2014 7:26 PM

2014-06-19T19:26:34-04:00

Most management positions require some sort of degree, typically Business Administration or some type of management degree. The way these degree plans are taught give prospect managers a wide view point of microeconomic/macroeconomic/statistical analysis/managerial aspects that many businesses look for in their managers. A manager who understands the big picture (Most military don't have this or have a military version of the big picture) are looked to be more favorable as a candidate.

I tell you this as a Human Resource Management major, the HR departments takes all things into consideration but leadership by itself does not guarantee management jobs. For all you know, that fresh out of college graduate may have a great degree of leadership experience from high school and college that shows responsibility and character.

The best way to make things a fair fight, go back to school! Get that degree and make us (fresh out of college graduates) run for our money.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2014 7:48 PM

2014-06-19T19:48:43-04:00

This is a point that few realize when they leave the military. In the army they treat all NCOs are leaders. There are few leaders in the civilian workforce. You will find Managers. They are different and require different approaches to your employees and your employer. In the management side in the civilian workforce they are trained to focus on the bigger picture and run within a set parameters. They are not really leader or establishing anything new but ensure the current operations remain running. A leader would be more of an expeditionary type of manager that leads his team in establishing his goals to meet the goals of his boss.

Or at least that i how I look at it.

Response by SGT Allison Churchill made Jun 20 at 2014 11:40 AM

2014-06-20T11:40:54-04:00

I don't think the companies are saying the classroom education is more valuable, it's just a different type of experience.

When I enlisted in the Army, I went in as a specialist, because I already had a B.S. in journalism. I was great at the public affairs aspect of my job, but often had to refer people to other soldiers as far as military questions went.

Even people who have always been working in the civilian world, if they change career paths, they often have to start lower on the ladder than they might have been previously. If you're a great leader, people will notice.

Response by MSG Martin C. made Jun 20 at 2014 3:58 PM

2014-06-20T15:58:20-04:00

To be honest none.... I think that service members erroneously assume that employers will value our experience and schooling from the service but very few actually do. Specially in corporations that believe on promotion from within now you are trying to walk in to a supervisor role as if they know what you done the past years or as if they actually care, remember many civilians don't even like the military or the war so that could actually play against you. It's all about what skills and qualifications you bring to the table? What makes you better than the other guy that just interview before you? And most important who you know who knows you? I learn so much when I was a recruiter a few years ago by interacting with the civilian population and other civilian recruiters during the job fairs it was really eye opening. There is no doubt that hiring a VET will have plenty of benefits for any organization but also remember that all VETs are not created equal and it's a very competitive world out there so my advice to all that still in the service it's to have a plan of what are they planning to do after their term it's up. Get as much certifications and experience as possible while you are still in and begin networking specially in the area you are planning to settle after your ETS. Most important be willing to begin at a lower level of what are expecting because your expectations may be higher than what the employer actually thinks of you.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Jun 20 at 2014 5:21 PM

2014-06-20T17:21:09-04:00

I understand the argument that military rank should be recognized in private sector employment. Part of the problem is institutional and part of the problem is individual.
- Institutional.
o The military does a poor job of advertising the benefits of military education and experience to the private sector.
o Military education and experience need to be more translatable to the private sector.
o The military needs to align professional military education with civilian certification where ever possible.
- Individual.
o Individuals need to "civilianize" their resumes in terms of duty titles, duties and responsibilities, and scope of accomplishments.
o Individuals need to advertise themselves better (security clearances, responsibilities, credentials, etc).
o Individuals need to better plan for post military employment whether after 5 years or 10 years. IE get higher education (BS, MS), get credentialed, or document their work experience through more than just evaluations).

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 23 at 2014 9:27 PM

2014-06-23T21:27:22-04:00

I think you are spot on but the real question is what are we to do about it? Most civilians don't even begin to understand what leadership is let alone why it is important.

Response by SSgt Robert Clark made Jun 23 at 2014 11:24 PM

2014-06-23T23:24:22-04:00

In the 21years I have been out I have learned that most leaders, I mean managers, couldn't lead themselves out of the bathroom much less effectively lead a team. Most lead my fear and negative motivation and have no understanding how to actually lead people. I learned more about leading at 24 years old and in the military than most civilians I have been around who are in their 50's.
To me, a large part if the problem is, as I learned when in the military, you lead people and manage assets. To many leaders, I mean managers, look at people as assets and value actual assets more than people.

Response by Capt Christian Olson made Jul 31 at 2014 12:18 PM

2014-07-31T12:18:02-04:00

Everyone has great comments and should be well heeded.
Each veterans circumstances will be unique. I think we need to look at the employability of a military specialist (someone with DIRECT civilian counterparts and there are tons of those jobs) and the generalist (most of your combat arms positions).
1) Military specialist- your transition will likely be easier as there are specific certifications that you can attain in service that employers are seeking. Likewise there are recruiters in the civilian world that recruit for niche skill sets (IT, Commercial Divers, Aviation Mechanics, Signals Intelligence). I think you get the picture. That being said, find a recruiter, preferrably like 6 in your industry give them a well crafted resume. It will not take long to get a job for you. Be willing to move and take a salary that may not be exactly what you wanted. Once you land somewhere your value as a veteran will show and you will bypass your peers quickly.

2) Military Generalist- Such as the Infantry, Artillery ect. Honestly you have a tougher pursuit here if you want to go into the corporate world or small business. I know, I am a combat arms guy, it took long hard self evaluation to properly translate my skills. I was a Company CO and XO of a Marine Special Ops Company (120 men). Alot of employers saw that as nice but how will that translate to making them more money or optimizing a process. I believe as a military generalist, the jobs where we tend to find employment easier and quickly outpace our peers is in logistics, operations management and sales. Again you will maybe have to come in at a lower level, but you will outpace your peers quickly! I would look for several recruiters in the sales, logistics and operations positions. Be willing to move, bei willing to come in a level slightly lower than your military rank and demosntrate to them how you will bring in more revenue or optimize a process.

Response by CSM Michael Lynch made Aug 15 at 2014 5:27 PM

2014-08-15T17:27:28-04:00

Mitch,

It is funny you mention this, I had an interview a month or two after retiring. This 20's something interviewer starts by telling me about the position and then while reveiwing my resume of management postions over 30 years, commences to tell me that with in 6 months time he could get me fast tracked to a management training.

I waited until he was done talking and told him that I believe the interview is over and that w there was no reason to waste anymore of our time. I politely stated that I'm sure his fast track program to manager was nowhere near the leveles of management training in the Army and Thanked him for his time.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 12:40 PM

2014-08-18T12:40:12-04:00

As I get ready to make my transition from Soldier to civilian, I am paying more and more attention to matters like these. One of the things that I am seeing is that many career Soldiers expect to step out of service into that leadership position. You have to remember, that usually is not how it works. You are basically starting your career over again, and much like coming up through the ranks, have to prove your worth to an organization. Yes, we are leaders. Yes, we have the training and experience. Yes, many of us have degrees in Management or a related field. How you articulate that on a resume and during an interview can make an impact if you are to start out with a company at entry level, or if you start out lower and then "fast track" into a management role. While I do not want to start out at the bottom, that does not mean that I am not willing to start there and work my way back up. I remember going to my E-5 board and the CSM asking me, "SPC Standridge, why should I promote you?" My answer was simple, "CSM, because one day I am going to take your job." Yes, it was a bold answer to the CSM, and my 1st line almost wet himself. But, it was the right answer at the time. Civilian sector works a little bit differently. If I was to say that to a hiring rep., then I most likely would not get the position as they would feel threatened. That does not mean that I can not be sitting back in the interview and thinking it in my head, and making that a goal within the company. It is that level of confidence that helps get you the job, just like it helped you get promoted in the military.

Response by LCpl Steven Fiore made Oct 29 at 2015 12:25 AM

2015-10-29T00:25:48-04:00

This is a very important topic. I have helped a few veterans with "the transition." We all have had great careers (mostly in IT).

I want to share a story from a retired executive from a very well known fortune 100 company, something that he once told me personally. This company thought it would be a great idea to hire high ranking military officers to lead major roles in their business. The thought was that decisions these leaders have to make to save or risk lives for the mission would give their company an edge in the marketplace. If a person can make a life or death decision quickly and accurately, they should be able to make tough calls from a business perspective, right?

Well it turned out it was a huge flop. The reason still makes me laugh to this day. The former military officers explained that there was no urgency for these decisions, "It wasn't like someone would die, if I made the wrong choice." Silly story, but it is not uncommon. The experience and skillset from the military world, doesn't translate over into the private sector easily. This is not to say it can't.

I personally got an associates degree for fun, but I still to this day do not list any education on my resume. I do have IT certifications and they do help, but work experience is still key. I never had any issue going against a college graduate with zero experience vs my 4 years military experience. This is a winnable comparison almost always. Now, say 8 years experience in the military vs 4 years college graduate and 4 years work experience. This is a much harder battle to win, still winnable though.

So, how can you transition you military experience into relateable work experience. First thing is always industry. Just because you have a skill set, i will use communications as my example, it will cross over into many industries. I have worked in the manufacturing industry, education, technology, security, and transportation industries. There is a difference, the job is very similar, but the industry matter BIG TIME. If you served in Comm, going straight to a technology company is going to be extremely hard, but every company needs communications. Why try to play in the big leagues, with the pros right away? Pick an industry that might not pay the highest, but the competition is lower. Manufacturing or education are great choices (using my own experience). Manufacturing pays less, but it will teach you valuable business skills and how the private sector works. You also will blow completely by your peers and earn promotions quickly. Once you have a good foothold and understanding (hopefully a promotion or two), it is time to lat move into a new industry and get the higher pay. During this "transition" period, it is important to get creditials. Don't just party and waste away. Focus on your career after work. You got to play catch up. It is a competition and you need to think of it that way.

Finally, how to get that initial job. Don't just google resume and interview questions. You need to get actual resumes of people trying to do what you are doing. A tech resume isn't 1 or 2 pages. It is sometimes 8 - 10. When applying, does the company want a summary or a full resume? Is your resume the same for every job (hint: it better not be)? Tailor each resume to each job posting. Use the exact language in the job posting. There are automated programs to discard or flag based on this language. Also, a resume won't be looked at for more than about 10 seconds. You better get some attention from a glance. So, look at your resume. Will a glance be enough to look more? Be honest. Best trick is to put 5 bullet points right dab in the middle of the top of the resume. These 5 points (i call them summary of qualifications) better tell anyone looking at the resume why you are perfect for this job. It should contain everything the job description wants in those short lines (not sentences, quick brief lines). Lastly, talking about language, certain language has a price value attached to it. Unfortunately, military language caps out at a small ceiling. "Attention to detail" for instance, isn't going to land you a high paying job. If you use the word "gear" don't expect a call back. My advice is to look at your resume and if you can see career military by a quick glance, it will generally hurt more than help (exceptions of course, by industry, and certain skills).

One last thing (for real) security clearances. If you have a secret or top secret security clearance and are having trouble finding work. You are doing it wrong. No other way to say it. Pick industries that will cheerish that security clearance. It is EXTREMELY expensive to pay for the process / background check of a new employee's security clearance. That will trump any degree any day, period.

well done with my rant, just my experience and my .02 from a young guy that has fought for every run in the civilian world.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2015 5:43 AM

2015-11-04T05:43:44-05:00

As a SPC it really scares me when SSGs and SFCs that have never attended college tell me that I need to go to WLC before I get out because civilian employers look for those type of schools on your resume. A SSG told me that, and I asked him "do you really think a civilian employer who doesn't know anything about the military or if they even care about the military, cares about you going to wlc or alc," and he told me YES! I was shocked I told him I've been going to college since I enlisted and I have a degree in business management, I would get a managment job before you just because civilians don't value military schools the way we do. He looked at me and laughed...he is a 11B, I really hope he makes the military a career!

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Apr 30 at 2016 11:52 AM

2016-04-30T11:52:43-04:00

All O-5s and below are not the same, as all E-9s are not the same, regardless of your experience. If you expect special consideration, the civilian industry isn't the place to go. My first real job after retirement was because a W-4 was doing the hiring and knew nothing about the Navy. His total logic, as he explained to me, was what it takes to advance to a senior position in the military. BTW, I began as an entry level technical training instructor and in five years advanced to Director of Training. The other two jobs I took was through networking and had nothing to do with former military rank or accomplishments.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 30 at 2016 12:02 PM

2016-04-30T12:02:53-04:00

We get into nuanced differences of terminology and differences of structure.

We have Leaders, Managers, and Supervisors. Those are distinct and SOMETIMES overlapping terms.

We train everyone to be Leaders. We train "Junior NCOs" to be Supervisors and Senior NCOs and Officers to be Managers. Managers manager Resources (which can include people).

In the civilian world, a Shift Leader (Supervisory Position) may have operational control of several people and would be the rough equivalent of an NCO. A Store Manager will manage both the people and the facility and be responsible to higher for P&L.

They don't view it as a "Leadership" role. They view it as a straight Supervisory/Management issue and based on previous experience (listed or explained) it is hard to compare an E4-E6 paygrade to that. We are "technically speaking" Supervisory with some Management. It is not until we hit the Senior NCO ranks that we become Management (in Full).

By better describing actual experiences, accomplishments, and education, it shifts us up on the paycharts and available oppurtunity list from one group to the other.

CC COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM am I explaining this correctly, Sir?

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 30 at 2016 3:15 PM

2016-04-30T15:15:41-04:00

There's no private sector equivalent to military rank. Very few people are vets so most don't understand the difference between a corporal and a colonel. Experience, education and achievements may be comparable. That's why it's important to translate military terms to civilian friendly language on resumes. There's also a lack of commonality across industries and occupations in the private sector. For example, "partner". If two people own a small business, they are "partners". A high power lawyer in. Wall Street firm may be a "partner." The differences in responsibility and compensation may be quite large. One way to figure out how to convert your rank to civilian terms is looking at job titles in industries similar to your military occupation. Some titles are quite similar such as team leader or chief pilot.

Government service has approximate equivalency. GS15 = O-6. GS09= O-1 or 2. GS04 ~ E-4. The correlation isn't absolute and may differ among agencies.