What is the command policy or AR reference to leadership forcing soldiers to spend money?

2017-07-09T16:59:48-04:00

One of my close friends is dealing with leadership issues where he is being forced to get haircuts every week even though his haircut is within refs under AR and DA-PAM 670-1. I'm trying to figure out how this can be avoided so he doesn't go broke. TM.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2017 5:12 PM

2017-07-09T17:12:44-04:00

Soldiers cannot technically be forced to spend their own money, however, there are circumstances where it is highly encouraged (such as group projects that need a money pool to succeed or to contribute to a fellow Soldiers family in a time of need). Ethics rules govern these things. Your friend's situation seems odd. Are you sure he is within regs? It seems highly doubtful someone of authority making him get a haircut if he is within regs. Did he have a problem in the past? Who is making him do this? Also, is it really that serious? I will say, if he truly feels like he just being "hazed" there should be someone else in his CoC he can reach out to... In extreme circumstances, there is always I.G. but this really seems like it can be handled at a lower level. That's about all I can say without knowing more...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2017 5:46 PM

2017-07-09T17:46:46-04:00

It's a new squad leader, makes his whole squad do it every week. I've read the grooming policy in 670-1 and it matches up with it.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jul 9 at 2017 5:48 PM

2017-07-09T17:48:57-04:00

There is no AR cite for something that does not exist.
You can find no AR paragraph that forbids a commander from requiring an SM to buy a baby zebra.
Ar670-1 Male Hair
(2) Male haircuts. The hair on top of the head must be neatly groomed. The length and bulk of the hair may not be excessive or present a ragged, unkempt, or extreme appearance. The hair must present a tapered appearance. A tapered appearance is one where the outline of the Soldier’s hair conforms to the shape of the head (see scalp line in figure 3–1), curving inward to the natural termination point at the base of the neck. When the hair is combed, it will not fall over the ears or eyebrows, or touch the collar, except for the closely cut hair at the back of the neck. The block-cut fullness in the back is permitted to a moderate degree, as long as the tapered look is maintained. Males are not authorized to wear braids, cornrows, or dreadlocks (unkempt, twisted, matted, individual parts of hair) while in uniform, or in civilian clothes on duty. Haircuts with a single, untapered patch of hair on the top of the head (not consistent with natural hair loss) are considered eccentric and are not authorized. Examples include, but are not limited to, when the head is shaved around a strip of hair down the center of the head (mohawk), around a u-shaped hair area (horseshoe), or around a patch of hair on the front top of the head (tear drop). Hair that is completely shaved or trimmed closely to the scalp is authorized. (See figs 3–1 and 3–2.)

Now specifically "The hair on top of the head must be neatly groomed. The length and bulk of the hair may not be excessive or present a ragged, unkempt, or extreme appearance"
You will not find the words " neatly groomed" , "excessive " "present a ragged, unkempt, or extreme appearance" Defined in the AR, there fore they mean what the reader interprets them to mean.
If the reader interprets "The length and bulk of the hair may not be excessive or present a ragged, unkempt, or extreme appearance" to require a weekly hair cut to comply... then thats what it takes.
You may disagree, bring the issue to the COC, if that does not resolve the issue, go see IG, they will investigate and advise the CDR.. be advised they can not ORDER the CDR to do anything... only a more senior CDR can do that...

SPC Private RallyPoint Member "I'm trying to figure out how this can be avoided so he doesn't go broke."

Well Im trying to figure out how getting a hair cut weekly (something I did for 28 years 7 months E-1 to E9) is cause your friend to go broke.. I call BS.
And if this friend has truly mismanaged his finances so bad that he can not afford a weekly haircut... Buy a pair of clippers and cut his own hair or have a buddy do it. One time expenditure of $30 and no more spending $9 weekly to get a hair cut.

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Jul 9 at 2017 6:07 PM

2017-07-09T18:07:16-04:00

When I was in, it was a rare thing indeed that you did not have a barracks barber or 8 within the unit. sometimes you paid him with a beer, but usually in a tight knit unit, others would see this, and he would give you the hookup and keep you taken care of. In fact the only time I actually went to the post barber was for my promotion board, and my PSG sprung for that (his own personal policy for soldiers going to the boards)

Response by 1SG John B. Enlow made Jul 9 at 2017 6:10 PM

2017-07-09T18:10:27-04:00

Forced by whom?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2017 7:44 PM

2017-07-09T19:44:33-04:00

4 haircuts a month at $10 (?) a pop...good looking out for your fellow soldier but maybe his finances need to be looked at closer if $40 is threatening him with bankruptcy.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2017 7:52 PM

2017-07-09T19:52:31-04:00

Response by MSgt Jason McClish made Jul 9 at 2017 8:08 PM

2017-07-09T20:08:00-04:00

Though I'm not in the Army, this is more of a legal issue as this leadership, by law, can add too policy, but not take away. This approach would have to be applied across the board, meaning male gets the haircut once a week and not just one Soldier. Now, its an IG/JAG, etc issue. Voice your concern with the Chain of command and document these meetings. If still unresolved, you have full reason to go to IG with a complaint and show how you tried using the chain of command. They'll investigate and do what they need to do. You better have all your ducks in a row with a decent amount of evidence as it'll make the case stronger and the investigation likely shorter. Good luck!

Response by SSgt David Tedrow made Jul 10 at 2017 1:16 AM

2017-07-10T01:16:15-04:00

Unless he is using a stylist to get his haircuts I cannot see how weekly haircuts will make him go broke.

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Jul 10 at 2017 11:42 AM

2017-07-10T11:42:52-04:00

Sounds like this person has more financial issues than leadership issues.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Jul 10 at 2017 1:04 PM

2017-07-10T13:04:29-04:00

20 bucks for clippers, free haircuts for life.

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Jul 10 at 2017 1:43 PM

2017-07-10T13:43:22-04:00

What's going on in the Corps of Engineers? $12 a week x 4 weeks a month is $48. If your friend can't manage that there are serious problems. When I was a private I got paid substantially less than you or your buddy. I still paid all my bills, had a fresh hair cut every week, had pressed uniforms on and mirror shined boots, and rarely ate in the DFAC. I don't buy this sob story at all. Maybe your friend needs to cut back on his other expenses.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2017 2:14 PM

2017-07-10T14:14:24-04:00

I'm more concerned of his financial situation if he can't afford haircuts once a week. Perhaps the squad leader needs to counsel him on his finances and point him in the direction of a financial class.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jul 10 at 2017 4:44 PM

2017-07-10T16:44:50-04:00

It's hard to tell if it's a leadership issue or a financial issue for your "friend." There may be several choices available:
-Your friend learns how to budget his money so that the cost of the weekly haircut is figured in. Maybe decrease the beer budget or other optional spending.
-Your friend goes for a haircut similar to mine in my profile photo. That look is maintained daily with an electric razor and every-other-day with a standard razor and shaving cream. Very cheap.
-Your friend asks the NCO demanding the weekly haircut to talk with him privately. At this meeting your friend asks why the NCO believes he needs a weekly haircut. If he keeps his hair within 670-1 limits at the beginning and end of a two-week period, would it be okay to get a haircut every two weeks.
-This is a difficult one: your friend refuses to get a haircut every week because his hair is within 670-1 limits and there is no operational reason why his hair should be shorter. This is risky and I don't recommend this approach if your friend wants to serve out his entire enlistment. Depending on the personality of the NCO, your friend might be in for a smoke session or two, but if he stands his ground he will probably end up before a SNCO or Officer who will hear him out. He may or may not avoid NJP.

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Jul 14 at 2017 4:06 PM

2017-07-14T16:06:03-04:00

One of my units in Germany, the 1SG had a barber shop. If he came out and saw you and you needed a hair cut, he would have you report to his barber shop and give you a really good hair cut. What we used to call a "desert cut"

Response by SPC Rob Lewis made Jul 14 at 2017 4:09 PM

2017-07-14T16:09:35-04:00

Depends on what it is and how far do you want to take your complaint. The only time I pushed back was when everyone was asked/told to pay up for a company meal. After I explained that I would be on leave at that time the squad leader backed down.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Jul 14 at 2017 4:11 PM

2017-07-14T16:11:04-04:00

I know most 1SGs had the Company's barbers kit issued to them. If money is the real us have him talk with Top.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2017 5:20 PM

2017-07-14T17:20:06-04:00

yet you got money to spend on alcohol, videos games and other crap.....that means he doesnt know how to manage money

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2017 5:47 PM

2017-07-14T17:47:48-04:00

Honestly, this is one of those things where you have to pick your battles. He needs to ask himself if it's worth saving $20 a month to get into it with his leadership. As one of my old NCOs used to say, "Do what your rank can handle."

Response by SGT Steve Hines-Saich B.S. M.S. Cybersecurity made Jul 14 at 2017 9:50 PM

2017-07-14T21:50:14-04:00

I entered in 03 I lessened quickly what the expectation was for my unit....my squad leader would check my uniform and hair then the section sgt. 1SG would randomly inspect. I learned to have an always ready attitude. I would prepare myself by having at least one pressed set of BDU,DBDU,or ACU. My class As were set up and inspectable. On down the road this just helped me out.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jul 14 at 2017 10:21 PM

2017-07-14T22:21:00-04:00

Having twice weekly haircuts by an indigenous, Kimchee eating person in Korea using hand clippers was onerous. The shower point was a 5 Klic ride in the rear of a 2 1/2 ton down a dusty road. 1954 era. (Terminology for Korean natives) = an upvote! ?

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Jul 15 at 2017 6:15 AM

2017-07-15T06:15:02-04:00

It seems to Me it about once a week I went and got a haircut, somehow i didn't find that a very big expense. I fail to see how that can break the bank. No one ever had to tell Me I needed a haircut in the entire 22 years I spent in uniform. On a daily basic I spit shined My shoes up until We got shoes that didn't have to be spit shined. My uniforms were always fresh ans pressed. I don't find any of that a major expense, these are things everyone should do. All of that coupled with Military bearing and proper posture served Me well. It sure isn't hard to do and if You make a habit of keeping up You Military appearance it takes very little effort.to maintain. I never had to tell anyone that worked with and for Me to get a haircut, they all knew it and had squared away appearances. With Military Police duties even My white hat was kept spotless and before the one piece permanent white hat the white hat covers over the service cap i changed and washed every few days. The idea was also to set an example with proper appearance and I found Army and Marine MP's. or USAF APs/SPs all had squared away appearances. I don't buy into the money excuse for not getting haircuts on a regular weekly basis.

Response by SPC Gabriel Bregg made Jul 15 at 2017 8:00 AM

2017-07-15T08:00:53-04:00

Clippers pay for themselves within a month. #1 on the sides, #3 on the top, the first couple might not be perfect but it's really not hard to do yourself.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 15 at 2017 4:02 PM

2017-07-15T16:02:47-04:00

Although I am in agreement with most of the comments, I still believe that barbers should be military personnel and it should be a billet/MOS. Salary pay means they can go into shifts and be open 24/7 at no expense to the individual. No more excuses for not having one weekly, or even every 72 hours, and no more massive lines every Sunday afternoon. We are willing to pay personnel to sit in a mailroom all day doing nothing but this is too much to ask for? I think not; the exchange services are cashing in on everything at the expense of the individual Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines.

Once upon a time you went to Cash Sales for uniform items and issued equipment replacement, now you need to go through the exchange, win for them. You need to go through them for a haircut, once again, something we all need, no real option available especially if you've ever been to Camp Wilson. Give it a couple years for them to clench the Commissary (some of which already have) and watch the "tax free" prices get jacked up. It's a horizontal monopoly on the armed forces that needs to stop. It ultimately promotes a dependent fighting force rather than a self reliant one.

Response by CW4 Leonard White made Jul 15 at 2017 6:59 PM

2017-07-15T18:59:34-04:00

I usually don't like getting involved in discussions like this but I have to ask...does your buddy smoke? Does he drink? Cut those things out and he'll probably save the 40 bucks, if not more, right there.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 21 at 2017 2:19 PM

2017-07-21T14:19:09-04:00

There is not enough info available here. While a whole heartedly agree with policy and regs., I must say there is something to be said for a neat and professional appearance. There are many types of units that ask their Service Members where their hair tighter (as it were) than the average organization. So, if they do not like the units standard do as the photo depicts and have the 1SG cut your hair, I am sure that the supply Sgt. has some clippers in his field kit. Good luck.

Response by SGT Richard Lovell made Aug 3 at 2017 1:28 PM

2017-08-03T13:28:52-04:00

As the SGM so eloquently stated, it is the interpretation of the higher rank that matters. Squad leader interprets one way, Platoon leader interprets another way, company leader interprets differently and so it goes. Buy the clippers and get good at cutting hair. Find more financially ignorant Privates and offer $5 haircuts and begin your education on money and learn the importance of managing your finances.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2017 4:31 PM

2017-09-13T16:31:12-04:00

I'm in Fortsill and we have to get a hair cut every week for nine dollars just to take off peach fuzz that barely grows in a week. It's ridiculous cause it's making me broke slowly but surely

Response by SP5 Peter Keane made Sep 13 at 2017 4:39 PM

2017-09-13T16:39:09-04:00

We just let the Viet Cong cut our hair. But, barber on base at LeJuene is 9.50. don't know how any one can broke with that and you get the extra benefit of a Parris Island cut.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2017 7:39 PM

2017-10-05T19:39:22-04:00

get a haircut

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Jul 17 at 2019 3:24 PM

2019-07-17T15:24:17-04:00

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I had to get a hair cut every week for 30 years because my hair grew fast and I wanted to look professional. My wife learned how to do a nice flat top and high taper and that reduced our out of pocket expense.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2019 3:56 PM

2019-07-17T15:56:43-04:00

You had good advice with regard to clippers, heck a razor will clean up your neck.
I also suggest considering help your friend mature a bit by letting him know that nobody should be required to make him get a haircut, he should do so without being a victim. Instead of looking to help him be a victim, help him be professional.
If he doesn't want to pay for haircuts, wait until he is asked for money for the many other things he'll be asked money for.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jul 17 at 2019 10:43 PM

2019-07-17T22:43:19-04:00

They aren't forcing to spend money. They have grooming standards that will be met. Cut your own or each other's hair.

Response by SPC John Cummings made Jul 26 at 2019 3:18 PM

2019-07-26T15:18:20-04:00

Years after I got out in 04, I read that 12% of service members qualified for Food Stamps. The amount of comments from SRNCOs about how they spent money in the 80s and 90s only reflecting your disconnect. Absolutely, money management is a liability to many. The suck it mentality, is in a large part the cause of SM suicide epidemic.

Response by SSG Pedro Tapia made Jul 26 at 2019 7:15 PM

2019-07-26T19:15:57-04:00

I am sorry that your friend is going broke for expending a measly $40.00 a month in haircuts while in garrison, but a fresh haircut and a press uniform goes a long way in my book. It is shows attention to detail and professionalism on the soldier's part.

Response by SGM Robert King made Jul 28 at 2019 9:33 PM

2019-07-28T21:33:04-04:00

Something else is wrong here. Buy a set of clippers and cut your own hair. I cut my own for 25 years and it is a flat top.
He is lucky that you do not have to starch and have spit shinned boots while in garrison.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Jul 29 at 2019 7:54 AM

2019-07-29T07:54:16-04:00

It's good you're trying to help.
However I have to throw down the BS Flag. Your battle has serious financial problems that he needs to address - maybe start with an audit on how he spends money then end it to how to budget. Don't skip the in-between parts. He should talk with a person at his bank. I hear they still give good advice to unwary people and their payday 'money flight plans'.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 9:19 AM

2019-07-29T09:19:53-04:00

you can get a good set of clippers for about the cost of 4-5 haircuts. I've been cutting my own hair for the last 30+ years.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 12:38 PM

2019-07-29T12:38:07-04:00

my question Does this leader require others to do the same. It seems he/she is targeting one person.

Response by PO2 Loren Gilmore made Jul 29 at 2019 12:50 PM

2019-07-29T12:50:14-04:00

I guess I never realized this problem with haircuts when I served in the Navy. There was always a barber shop on the carriers and I dont remember paying to much for a cut. While serving with the Marines I did not go Marine Reg's but kept my hair neat and trimmed within Navy. Standards. With todays market if he is being charged 40 dollars a month and is afraid of going broke then I agree with most comments on this post, he needs to have a financial advisor look into his spending. Call me old school but a neat and trim look while in uniform is a must. Doc Gilly.

Response by SPC Rick LaBonte made Jul 29 at 2019 5:18 PM

2019-07-29T17:18:10-04:00

at minimum, I got a haircut every two weeks when I was in. And btw, cigarettes were a $1.25/pack back then, bet I spent that much a week on smokes considering I smoked more while drinking on weekends!

Response by SSG Cathy Winegarden made Jul 29 at 2019 5:46 PM

2019-07-29T17:46:12-04:00

I cut my troops hair all the time for inspections

Response by SSG Cathy Winegarden made Jul 29 at 2019 5:47 PM

2019-07-29T17:47:33-04:00

I cut my troops hair all the time so they could pass inspections, it was no big deal

Response by PFC Lacey Burke made Jul 29 at 2019 6:36 PM

2019-07-29T18:36:35-04:00

Get a pair of clippers for $10.

Response by MSG Alison Klein made Jul 29 at 2019 7:10 PM

2019-07-29T19:10:08-04:00

Unfortunately a commander can tighten requirements including hair. They just can't loosen. So the AR is the minimum not the maximum. Now it does need to be in writing and posted if it isn't then he has a leg to stand on until they do put it in writing.

Response by SPC Timothy Stafford made Jul 29 at 2019 8:58 PM

2019-07-29T20:58:15-04:00

Tell him not to be such a wimp and give him a razor. Soldiers have been finding ways to adapt, reason, & overcome since the beginning of time. If a ten dollar haircut is a challenge to him perhaps he picked up the wrong duties.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 9:22 PM

2019-07-29T21:22:52-04:00

I always got a haircut once a week. That’s life in the military.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 10:49 PM

2019-07-29T22:49:41-04:00

Tell him to sell the Mustang or BMW he bought as a boot so he can afford the hair cut and not be broke. And I might add, don’t go to the strip club. The girls don’t like you because your cute

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 10:50 PM

2019-07-29T22:50:09-04:00

Easy have said friend go buy a pair of clippers and cut his own hair problem solved

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 11:28 PM

2019-07-29T23:28:57-04:00

I am sure there is more to the story than what the original poster typed.

Response by Cpl Daniel Rogers made Jul 30 at 2019 6:11 AM

2019-07-30T06:11:32-04:00

Boo freakin hoo. For 6 years I had to get weekly haircuts. We’re there times I was broke from spending too much cash on a weekend?...yes. Did I figure it out?...yes.

Welcome to the suck kiddo.

This reminds me of the attitude of the new marines when I was getting out all piss and moan

Response by SSG Danny Anderson made Jul 30 at 2019 7:18 AM

2019-07-30T07:18:28-04:00

Learn how to cut your own hair

Response by SGT Daniel Hogan made Jul 30 at 2019 7:52 AM

2019-07-30T07:52:28-04:00

While in AIT in 1999 I purchased a set of Wahl clippers. I have only oiled those things once and 20 years later I am still using them. They have paid for themselves several hundred times over. I’ve given fellow soldiers haircuts with them, and even gave some of my soldiers haircuts with them right in our shop. Going broke on haircuts should be pretty difficult if you are using the right facilities and resources...now if your friend is going to a luxury salon thats his problem.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jul 30 at 2019 9:18 AM

2019-07-30T09:18:44-04:00

The one thing we had to do, aside from getting haircuts, was spend for our dining-in/dining-out dress uniform, there was actually a reg saying we had to personally buy it back then, I've got zero clue if the rule still exists now, of course...just figured you'd all find that amusing, if nothing else, at any rate....

Response by SFC Tom Jones made Jul 30 at 2019 9:38 PM

2019-07-30T21:38:49-04:00

Well I can say this with experience, A lot of it has to do with how much pride you have for yourself and how you want people to see you in public. But if your friend is trying to look like a joe on the street then he should have stayed there. But if he looks sharp a high and tight next to the skin then he would most likely just have to get a haircut about every month at the longest and at least every payday which means 2 times which should be at a cost of no more then looking sharp and only having to get a haircut 2 times a month.$20.00. Now if the unit just wants to meet standards and a sharp NCO wants everyone looking sharp and taking pride for his unit then I would just tell him to get a high and tight and that way he solves 2 problems

Response by SSG Brian G. made Aug 5 at 2019 4:47 AM

2019-08-05T04:47:00-04:00

It does not exist. The Ar,u cannot 'force' a SM to spend money. What they can, will and have done is to take the SM to task for an individual regulation, ie as you mentioned a haircut. Now the soldier has to choose how to handle the direct order to comply with the regulation.

I was in that same situation. I was told to fall into regs even though I was in regulations. Which meant that I could do one of three things to keep from being afoul of the regulations:

1 Fork over $11.00 per week for a haircut.
2. Take it upon myself and shave to stay in regs.
3. Take a trip to the PX and invest in a hair care kit and either give myself a haircut or have someone do it for me.

I chose #3. This meant a small outlay of $40 but meant that inside of a month that one purchase would pay for itself.

Response by SGT Tommy Phillips made Sep 27 at 2019 12:05 AM

2019-09-27T00:05:08-04:00

They can always add to a regulations but never take a way from it. That's was how it was in the 80s