What is the current state of Marine Corps Discipline?

Capt Michael Wilford — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 16:55:44 -0400

In a previous question, I asked about Army discipline and now it is the Marine Corps about whom I will ask. I am a Veteran of the Marine Corps as both an enlisted Marine and a commissioned officer and we always hear about how the Marine Corps is the Gold Standard for discipline in the US Military; we are supposed to be and we project that image. But, are we the hallmark of discipline for the military, or have we fallen victim to some of the pitfalls other branches of service have encountered? What say you? I ask that you keep this respectful, factual, and honest as I have done with my question about the Army. We are, after all, one military with different missions and one end goal.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jul 30 at 2019 5:18 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 17:18:24 -0400

We had a few USMC guys in the BOQ where I was, I'd chat with them a few times...watching them actually taught me to salute properly...I never said anything to them about, I just watched them do it, and mimicked them as far as I was able...then, too, once, I'd been a hospital in-patient for something, and actually met a few of the enlisted guys who'd been in that whole horrible barracks thing in Lebanon, I listened as they chatted, I didn't ask them very much, for the most part, I was obviously rather in total awe of them, it'd happened when I'd been in...I just figured you might get a kick out of hearing that...my Mom's Dad had actually been drafted during WW2 by USMC and was at Parris Island, I think during the buildup for Iwo Jima, however, he apparently didn't adjust, I'd been told, or something like that, he apparently missed my grandmother, and my Mom, and my uncle, my Mom's brother (even though no one in my family can stand him now, family thing)...he never spoke of it at all, I'd actually been able to get his file from NPRC awhile back, with his USMC file photo...needles to say, my family was taken aback when I'd sent them the photo, they'd known about it, however, I think he was as taciturn, dour, and moody as he was, as it rather always bugged him, though, of course, we never asked him about it at all, I couldn't really discern much from his NPRC file as to what'd happened while he'd been there, just that he was for a few weeks to a couple of months, then apparently sent back home....

Response by CSM William Everroad made Jul 30 at 2019 5:50 PM

CSM William Everroad — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 17:50:14 -0400

I think your previous post and its comments were headed in the general direction of culture. The Marine Corps does a fantastic job of selling the image of being a highly trained, disciplined and proficient fighting force. It becomes so ingrained that exceptions to this norm are so abhorrent and counterculture it breads more compliance. So when leaders are tasked with maintaining the standards, they take a more serious approach to breaches of discipline. More punishment, discharge, etc whereas the Army might be more tolerant, or have a way more graduated approach to discipline problems.
I am not saying the Army doesn't have good leaders by and large, but the two cultures are different because, I believe, of the functional role of both branches. In the previous post, a lot of SMs from combat units in the Army felt that discipline was higher in those functional areas, so maybe that lends support to the theory that units, irrespective of branch, that primarily depend on the ability of its SMs to follow orders, foster a higher expectation of discipline.
I think that stereotyping each branch in this way, however, may not lead to a good analysis on which branch is more disciplined depending on your definition. I think the definition you use will change your conclusion because evaluating that will be subjective.
Is disciplined the ability to follow orders? Complete the mission? Keep boots polished and the floors waxed? Blind respect of rank?

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Jul 31 at 2019 9:23 AM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:23:09 -0400

During my time in our Corps, we often referred to the "10%". Generally, the 10% were primarily enlisted, but included some officers, who had never really bought into the "program". Their transgressions ranged from being a general pain in the butt, to exhibitions of non compliance to regulations and expectations that warranted administrative release from the Corps or formal disciplinary action. As a young Captain and MAG adjutant, I witnessed the wrath of the Corps on another Captain who was involved with civil authorities one night. When the individual's Commanding Officer reported the incident to the Group Commander, he told me to get the Wing Commander on the line. I did so and overheard the Colonel telling (not asking) the Wing Commander (MGen) that he wanted the authority to release the individual immediately. He summoned the offender to his office, then sent him back to his quarters to change into a more presentable uniform. When the officer returned, the Colonel advised him that he was being released from the Corps, removed his rank insignia as well as his EGA, declared him persona non grata and had the MPs escort him from our office to the gate.

Since I left active duty in 1989, I have had many opportunities to return to Camp LeJeune and Parris Island to visit family and friends, as well as for official functions where I had the opportunity to talk informally with officers and enlisted. While social media and enhanced news coverage often paints a picture of disarray and lawlessness in our military, I can say that my observations and discussions with active duty personnel leaves me with a different impression. The Marines I have talked with are just as dedicated and faithful to serving our nation as any I served with. The young officers are just as eager to lead Marines and the enlisted display the same enthusiasm and dedication. Overall, they are better educated (many enlisted with college degrees) and just as committed to honorable service as the 90% of Marines I was privileged to serve with.

Response by SPC Angela Burnham made Jul 31 at 2019 9:14 PM

SPC Angela Burnham — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 21:14:14 -0400

Depends on the post and the unit's leadership I'd assume. With the mass arrests at Camp Pendelton for human trafficking and drug smuggling, I'd probably lean towards "not exactly what it once was", but then again all that could be isolated to just a couple different units.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Aug 1 at 2019 10:23 AM

MSgt Michael Smith — Thu, 01 Aug 2019 10:23:49 -0400

This is an article that discusses at least one area in the USMC that continues to be a problem. Discipline can be very subjective depending on who is judging. Crisp uniforms, perfect fitness scores, and high/tight haircuts don't mean much if there is a persistent toxicity within the culture.

Response by SFC Michael D. made Aug 2 at 2019 8:46 AM

SFC Michael D. — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 08:46:11 -0400

Maybe you should be asking about the state of Navy Seal discipline. From what I heard on the news, some heads are gonna roll. Shame for such an elite force.