What is the most appropriate way to address someone being given a false PT score, while minimizing the damage to their career?

2017-08-16T02:40:33-04:00

Apologies for my terrible English. Here is the question broken down and explained in what I hope is in better terms.
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Aug 16 at 2017 2:53 AM

2017-08-16T02:53:34-04:00

I tried to google translate that. Didn't work.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2017 3:13 AM

2017-08-16T03:13:34-04:00

Thanks for squaring me away 1SG it's corrected.

Response by PFC Jonathan Albano made Aug 16 at 2017 3:27 AM

2017-08-16T03:27:00-04:00

Edit: I posted this before corrections were made to the OP's question so it probably looks out of place. I answered the main question in the comment section of this post.

Rather than ask who's getting the shaft for this, let's run this through the Army's favorite ethical compass; LDRSHIP.

Loyalty- As soldiers, we look out for each-other. Is it looking out for your battle to say they are physically meeting the standard to hold their own in battle if they really aren't?

Duty- It's the duty of Said NCO and Soldier to ensure standards are being met. Is that the case when you falsify records to make it seem like the standard is met when it's not?

Respect- There are people in the unit who passed based off of their own ability. What message does this situation send to others in the unit?

Selfless Service- Again, there are others in the unit, and in the Army as a whole, that met the standard on their own. Is it ok to benefit from falsified records at the expense of your fellow battle buddy?

Honor- Every day, soldiers strive to be a credit to the uniform. Does this sort of behavior enhance the image of the Army, or do our institution injustice?

Integrity- All anybody has in life is their word. How good is the word of somebody who would falsify, or go along with falsifying a career deciding document?

Personal Courage- Part of the Army, let alone life, is being willing to own one's actions and accept the consequences for them. In accepting fabricated results, is this hypothetical soldier doing that?

In my mind, what will happen is an irrelevant question that is up to Commander's discretion. Should this be reported is the question that I'd be asking.

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Aug 16 at 2017 6:45 AM

2017-08-16T06:45:38-04:00

Well, frankly, if you cannot for certain prove that it was falsified there isn't a whole lot that you can do. However, if the soldier fails a real OR test prior to being pinned she can be flagged and that will postpone any promotion. Fail another one and administrative action can be done to separate them. Frankly, they obviously don't have the integrity it takes to be a leader anyways. I would see that they take an APFT as soon as possible and flag them if they fail.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2017 6:53 AM

2017-08-16T06:53:41-04:00

CPL Santos,
I'm going to be very direct. Personally, and I don't care what her MOS is, I don't want a soldier who displays an utter lack of integrity in my Army. She had at least a couple of opportunities to fix this. 1. Either she didn't know the PT test was pencil-whipped or she did. If she didn't, as soon as she became aware of it, she should have cleared the air. If she did, she is disloyal, failed in her duty, failed to show respect to both the rank, the promotion board, and her leadership, is selfish, is dishonorable, lacks integrity and personal courage. 2. When she failed the PT test, she showed a gross lack of readiness, which is unsat in our Army, especially right now. She should have cleared the air then.

I'll be honest, I am a bit irritated at the fact that there is a soldier out there somewhere who is about to be promoted to become a leader of soldiers under these circumstance. I sincerely hope she is not in the 35 CMF.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2017 11:05 AM

2017-08-16T11:05:57-04:00

There are the policies that should be adhered to regardless of the reasons. There are consequences for actions. From the information I'm reading, I find it hard to believe a promotable E4 would not be updating their promotion points as soon as they get more, unless it is one of those MOSes where the points are really low. If that is the case, a passing PT score would probably have had enough points. 300 points can only help promotion points. If this soldier did not know, then someone else was taking care of her promotion points in the system. I'm of the opinion she knew what was going on. Shady business all around.

That being said, has this soldier consistently performed well on PT, with high 200s and happened to hit 300 this one time? Or was this a consistent 180 soldier? Could she have had a seriously beyond belief off day during this diagnostic? Will she be able to perform well on the next one or will she likely do poorly on the record, and not fail again?

I mention this because when I was an E4, my points in secondary zone was consistently 798. My only hope of promotion was that it would fall low enough to be promoted early. I did my best to max my push ups and sit ups and ran as fast as I could to get as many points towards promotion. I still needed to wait until I hit primary zone and points fell low enough. After promotion, my average PT score was in the 220s. In recent history, I was having a bad day, failed my PT test, and passed the next 2 diagnostics without issue and I have confidence for my next record. My whole chain of command was disappointed in me because if I passed that morning of the record PT test, I would have received an award later that day, and been promoted at the first of the next month. No one was disappointed more than I, but no one was going to falsify my PT test because I was 1:30 off from passing.

So if she expects her performance for a record PT test to reflect what her actual physical conditioning readiness is, and not the 300 that was falsified, the sooner she clears it up the better. Take responsibility for what happened. It is possible to discuss it as non-judicial punishment, and will likely be flagged and lose promotable status. The soldier should do what is right, as should you CPL.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2017 1:44 PM

2017-08-16T13:44:03-04:00

This whole scenario doesn't really make sense to me. Why would someone pencil whip a 300 knowing that the person being scored couldn't achieve that? Why would the person receiving the score allow it to be whipped that high IF they knew it was happening? Especially going to a new unit with a promotion hanging in the balance.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2017 1:59 PM

2017-08-16T13:59:09-04:00

The Soldier is complicit in the forging of an official training record. She then allowed that record to be used to accept a promotion.
That violates the spirit and the letter of the entire first paragraph of the NCO Creed.
She has no business accepting a promotion based upon this.
Were she my Soldier, she'd be trundled down to the PT Track for an immediate record APFT. Regardless of score, the new one would be the basis for a recalculation in promotion points. She would be flagged until it hit the PPRL and I was sure that the new score was reflected there.

I wouldn't necessarily punish her for what had happened elsewhere, but I'd sure as hell counsel her. Her actions after she arrived in my unit would be scrutinized carefully. I don't know this Soldier, but she isn't getting off on the right foot.
I need NCOs with integrity, personal courage, and selfless service. This is not that. If she gets her head right - and apparently her fitness as well - then she can move out smartly and potentially lead others.
Until then, she needs to get her mind right.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2017 5:20 PM

2017-08-16T17:20:46-04:00

She needs to come clean now. Yeah, she'll probably lose the promotion but if she was in my unit I'd at least gain some respect for her by coming clean sooner rather than later.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2017 7:04 PM

2017-08-16T19:04:59-04:00

She needs to stand up get on the horn and tell her COC about what went on everything. Tell the story and ask for forgiveness learn from the mistake and move on.

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Aug 17 at 2017 1:18 AM

2017-08-17T01:18:08-04:00

If she was unaware of the falsification, bad on her for not paying attention to her packet, shows unprepared to assume a leadership role. If she WAS aware, UCMJ for falsefing official records, real bad on her. If the first, teachable moment. delay in promotion for more seasoning, move out. the second, no help for her on this, take the pain of whatever comes down.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Aug 23 at 2017 2:06 PM

2017-08-23T14:06:40-04:00

pass with a 300
or suck up her NCO failed her...hopefully it wasn't done solely by her.

Response by LTC William Gilmore made Aug 23 at 2017 2:18 PM

2017-08-23T14:18:55-04:00

Well, I think the most important thing she can do is get in shape and pass the PT test!

Response by CSM William Payne made Aug 23 at 2017 3:43 PM

2017-08-23T15:43:22-04:00

When I was attending the United States Army Sergeants Major Academy at Fort Bliss, we were "requested" by the command of Beaumont Army Hospital to conduct their APFT. Be careful for what you ask for. Many of the USASMA students that volunteered were combat arms and a large number of those were former drill sergeants. The many different violations of form and function of doing sit-ups and especially pushups were astounding. The hospital chief, a Colonel, was one of the worse when it came to doing pushups. After being told several times that his pushups were not meeting the standard, he finally quit and then blew his stack.

He said that he had never failed an APFT previously during his career and nobody had ever questioned his pushups before. Needless to say, there were a number of the military hospital staff that didn't do well on the APFT that day. I doubt that USASMA students were ever invited back to be graders again.

I did have knowledge of a CSM that was caught falsifying his APFT card, subsequently received a field grade Article 15 and retired. When members of leadership or the command team do their PT and take the APFT separately from the rest of the Solders, that's not a good sign.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Aug 23 at 2017 3:52 PM

2017-08-23T15:52:46-04:00

I think CW2 Private RallyPoint Member and 1SG Private RallyPoint Member pretty much covered everything that needs to be said.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Aug 23 at 2017 4:04 PM

2017-08-23T16:04:16-04:00

I picked up on one thing here, she got transferred. This tells me probably WHY her score was faked. They wanted to transfer her out but couldn't if she had a bad score. This actually happens a lot. Not necessarily with PT but with evals being written to be able to transfer a person. I learned this when I first made LPO. I had a total derelict sailor under me. So I wrote his evals to reflect that. I was taken in by a person of rank I will not name but was way above me and told to change the eval to a "good" one. I did so. When he got his transfer I was told NOW you write the eval as his transfer eval. Yeh. Got stopped by a Chief while walking along the pier and he just blew a gasket at me about lying etc on an eval. But it happens. Funny thing was that the same people who were behind this used to say "we don't pass our problems off to others".

So I'm betting they wanted to transfer her and made sure it happened.

What can she do? Fess up if she knew about the fake score. Or lie. And never stop lying. That gets tuff.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Aug 23 at 2017 4:17 PM

2017-08-23T16:17:56-04:00

Well, first off, what are all these "points" for promotion? Dang. I look around now as the sailors (and others) get ready for promotions and know I would never have made it above E-4 if I had had to do all that stuff.

As I always said about PT. I can run from the torpedo room to shaft alley with a EAB (emergency air breathing) mask on. About 300 feet. Where, on a submarine, would I ever run further than that? Give PT that resembles the job.

So all you grunts, do a 20 mile hike with your full gear, dig a fox hole, and shoot the "enemy", set up a tent, eat an MRE, and then hike back. You have 2 hours. GO! :)

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2017 4:22 PM

2017-08-23T16:22:19-04:00

Command Inquiry

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2017 6:56 PM

2017-08-23T18:56:22-04:00

Now everyone is worried about their career..? Not when they were lying, or found out there was falsified documents? I don't personally care what happens to any of them, as long as they aren't put into a position where they have to lead soldiers.

Where were y'all during the Army Values classes in basic?

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Aug 23 at 2017 7:42 PM

2017-08-23T19:42:52-04:00

If you don't possess the integrity to call a foul on yourself when you see something on your record you didn't earn, it is time for you and the organization to part company. it doesn't matter if that organization is a Fortune 500 company or military service. No one, in a leadership position, that does not posses internally the integrity required of the newest recruit, is disqualified from leading in my opinion.

I had to watch 36 out of 40 females in my platoon training at Field Medical Service School cheat on their graded PRT score so they could graduate the school and go on to another duty station. A male that failed that test was retained at the school until one of three things happened. He died. He left the Navy. He actually passed the school. I may be a bit biased here because I am still irritated their service record reflects on paper they achieved the same qualifications I did and they flat out didn't.

Going forward, that individual has to make things right by coming forward with the full, uncompromising truth and deal with the fall out.

Response by SFC Shane Funkhouser made Aug 23 at 2017 9:37 PM

2017-08-23T21:37:36-04:00

To be honest part of me is disgusted that you would even be looking for a way to minimizee any of the consequences of any soldier involved with this, but a small part recognizes that it is probably out of a sense of loyalty to your peer.
The bottom line is anyone involved should face the full consiqueses of their actions.
The NCO Corps does not need anymore people with a lack of integrity.
I'm sure there was no malice involved in what they did probably just trying to hook a buddy up right?
Well the problem is as a leader we are expected to lead by example and no one involved will ever have a leg to stand on if their troops find out what they did and it could be used against them by their soldiers.
How do you correct a soldier for failing p.t. If you can't pass yourself? How do you fail a soldier if they know you pencil whipped a score for someone else?
Nope we don't need NCO's like this.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made Aug 23 at 2017 11:08 PM

2017-08-23T23:08:08-04:00

My PSGT in Iraq, 2005, signed off on a PT card for a 300 that never happened. Scored him a trial by Courts Martial and a promotion from SFC to SSG. Her conduct scored her a promotion as well.

It should be obvious if the card was pencil whipped. Sounds like a retest is in order. The NCO needs to be dealt with.

Response by LTC Russ Smith made Aug 24 at 2017 12:30 AM

2017-08-24T00:30:23-04:00

Company grade Article 15 or worse. The higher the rank, the harsher the punishment. Officers should be relieved for cause.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Mar 4 at 2018 4:30 PM

2018-03-04T16:30:41-05:00

Sorry, this is extremely poor judgement. She should never have accepted an undeserved score, and now that she is caught out its, how do I fix it time. Here's a couple of leadership principles to pass on, 1). Know yourself, and seek self improvement, "2). Take responsibility for your actions.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 5 at 2018 12:29 AM

2018-03-05T00:29:28-05:00

1. My $.02, if anyone knowingly gives/accepts false grades- then they should not be an NCO in the 1st place. 2. She has a moral dilemma and what a transfer- it becomes long distance hearsay. 3. Since she failed a diagnostic PT test- it may invalidate her promotion., and cancel her orders. She better damn will pass the next one with flying colors- or they might try to chapter her.

Response by SGT Pete Masullo made Aug 9 at 2018 8:33 PM

2018-08-09T20:33:05-04:00

This isn’t the first bloated PT score and it won’t be the last. The vast majority of soldiers have benefitted from an easy monitor or a downhill running course at some point in their careers. It’s a break that falls into the laps of good troops. I think there are two problems here. One is the complete fudgery of what should have been a failure and a soldier’s complete involvement in it either during or after the fact. There is no benefit of the doubt. The troop didn’t get a 275 on the diagnostic and caught a break based on discretion...someone grossly fudged the record. My real issue is with the desire to protect careers. Who cares? Multiple soldiers are lying to further their careers. These are not honest mistakes. Heads should roll as an example that nothing is given or taken unearned.

Response by SPC Christopher Renkel made Aug 9 at 2018 11:57 PM

2018-08-09T23:57:45-04:00

More info is needed was she a consistent high 200s? Was she stationed on the coast and moved Carson for example. Elevation changes messed me up for a few months.

Response by SSG Jonathan Sprague made Aug 10 at 2018 8:53 AM

2018-08-10T08:53:25-04:00

Nothing, sick it up buttercup.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2018 9:52 AM

2018-08-10T09:52:07-04:00

Step 1: remove PT scores from promotion system. Being a PT stud doesnt make you a good leader. Treat Pt as a health and wellnes program and you wont have to worry about ruining careers

Response by 1SG James Magsayo made Aug 10 at 2018 2:26 PM

2018-08-10T14:26:54-04:00

The bottom line is there is a standard and it obviously was not met. If there are questions regarding the standard, one need only consult their HCoC or the proper regulations.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2018 2:40 PM

2018-08-10T14:40:56-04:00

If she failed the PT just retake it, she just took a diagnostic pt test not the record test which is yearly she has the time to trained up. The diagnostic test can not reflect badly as it is a test to gadge where a soldiers physical training in getting ready for the PT Test. Tell the soldier to put her head down and Trained. It’s nothing to tell most soldier don’t report to there next duty station ready to pass the PT Test. I did but I wouldn’t max it like I would want

Response by SFC Tim Mosher made Aug 10 at 2018 3:31 PM

2018-08-10T15:31:07-04:00

The only POSSIBLE reason I could see for a legit 300 to failure would be if this soldier had transitioned to Ft. Carson and read not given the 30 days to become acclimatized. Beyond that it was pencil whipped for promotion points.
As Top pointed out a test for record, and proceed from there.

Response by SPC Jonathan Fretwell made Aug 10 at 2018 5:37 PM

2018-08-10T17:37:37-04:00

I agree with SGT Gunderson. I would order another PT test to be performed due to change in duty station or unit. However, do make sure is doesn’t have an injury of some sort. I remember maxing my PT test, going to a different duty station, retaking my PT test and failing. I pulled my groin muscle deadlifting. Needless to say, my groom muscle refused to warmup or work with me that day. However, a month later, I was retested and maxed my pt test. The funny thing was, I thought is could warm my muscle up and actually run, maybe not max score run, but run fast enough to pass. The answer to the question was no, evidently I couldn’t run.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2018 9:43 PM

2018-08-10T21:43:01-04:00

One word. integrity

Response by CWO4 Ray Whiteaker made Aug 10 at 2018 10:21 PM

2018-08-10T22:21:01-04:00

Integrity is the easiest thing to lose and the hardest to regain. If you’ll pencil whip one piece of paper you’ll pencil whip any piece of pape

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2018 1:16 AM

2018-08-11T01:16:41-04:00

I think the biggest issue is when we see leadership only being graded by certain people. It sets a tone amonth the soldiers. I saw an environment where junior enlisted were called out about PT scores but never heard about the PSG or PL etc. At the end of the day no matter the job you should practice what you preach and if you talk the talk as a leader you better walk the walk. If you aren’t a PT stud then don’t act like your rank allows you to be an a SME about PT. It takes a great leader to know where their shortcomings are.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2018 6:39 AM

2018-08-11T06:39:26-04:00

Around 10 years ago, as a PFC in a HQ, I was selected as a grader. I reiterated to the MSG that I wasn’t a NCO but he said my integrity outweighed my rank and to use that when scoring. Needles to say, a LTC in my line failed pushups. The LTC locked me up and told me I was wrong and to fix it; however, the COL in the line next to him didn’t agree. As a PFC, and still intimidated by any officer, I was slightly confused to see a LTC locked up by a COL. In final formation that day I received a coin from the senior CSM.

Response by SGT David Nicholas made Aug 11 at 2018 10:28 AM

2018-08-11T10:28:59-04:00

An NCO or potential NCO MUST have integrity and should report this herself! Otherwise she is setting a very bad presidency.

Response by CWO3 Ira Brown made Aug 11 at 2018 1:32 PM

2018-08-11T13:32:56-04:00

The NCO who submitted the false score and the soldier tested if she knowingly allowed the false score to move forward should both be discharged after facing charges. There’s no room for a lack of integrity. You are in a precarious situation and without a doubt go to 1stSgt. If he doesn’t do anything then go to the SgtMaj. If he doesn’t do anything go to the CO. If this pattern continues call the SgtMaj of the Army.

Response by SSG Mark Harper made Aug 11 at 2018 3:16 PM

2018-08-11T15:16:22-04:00

It is a question of integrity you either have it or you don't and she don't as well as anyone who is an accomplice to the situation. There can be no good reason for cheating or falsifying the score. Minimizing the damage will be hard if not impossible. From now on everything she does will have a question mark beside it. That is not the stuff leaders are made of. When I went throught the NCO Academy years ago we had a Sgt and a Ssg whi were caught cheating on the PT test. They were both kicked out of the academy and when they returned to their units they both received Article 15's.

Response by MAJ Dave Robertson made Aug 11 at 2018 4:41 PM

2018-08-11T16:41:05-04:00

Send her my way. Here’s the conversation: This is your only slim chance to survive this. I want a sworn statement from you as to your PT Score of record. If you wish to stand by it, that’s perfectly fine. Sign the statement and meet me at the track. I’ll give you a 15% variance, but less than that and everything is on hold while I conduct a formal investigation. On the other hand, if you now having second thoughts about this whole thing, document the actual events and be prepared to be called as a witness. Your promotion is gone, your career probably is too. But this will at least let you avoid prosecution. I’ll be back in 30 minutes.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Harper made Aug 11 at 2018 7:52 PM

2018-08-11T19:52:17-04:00

This was and still is very serious problem with the Army. It’s all on the NCOs to fix this. It’s happened and is still happening every day in uniform. Rank chasers and bullet chasers have they buddie hook them up with a PT score they really didn’t earn.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Harper made Aug 11 at 2018 8:18 PM

2018-08-11T20:18:38-04:00

I see all of these comments and can just about bet some of you have hooked your buddy up at some point in your careers or had someone give you a few more sit ups or push-ups than you did to better your score. GIve me a break!!

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Aug 11 at 2018 8:35 PM

2018-08-11T20:35:50-04:00

What proof do you have. It could have been legit. Without proof or confessing you have nothing to stop it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2018 1:23 PM

2018-08-12T13:23:36-04:00

It is a smack in the face to all the soldiers who put in hard work pass the APFT and when soldiers know that leaders are other soldiers are not they lose all respect for them and that is not good for the military

Response by SGT Brandon Kinney made Aug 12 at 2018 2:26 PM

2018-08-12T14:26:23-04:00

Simple......get rid of the BS give her another PT test. Move out from there. You CV ant control the past but you can the future. If there is an integrity issue....handle it.....if not.....dont wine about it and make a big stink about it.....give the pt test for record and either promote or flag. It's that simple.

Response by SPC Kevin Doiel made Aug 12 at 2018 9:12 PM

2018-08-12T21:12:34-04:00

Take action for what she does as a new leader in a new duty station. Not for what is perceived to have or have not occurred at the previous duty station as apparently there could have been failed leadership as well. Perhaps she thought being a diagnostic she felt she could slack off and fail or maybe she had been drinking and slacked off throughout the transition of duty stations. Too may what ifs here. Without all the facts you can't make an accurate judgment of what actually happened. Yes I know I was only an E4P when I left but I have held leadership and command positions in law enforcement so I do have a little to say on the subject. That is my two cents on the subject.

Response by SSG David Mitchell made Aug 12 at 2018 9:19 PM

2018-08-12T21:19:03-04:00

Well let’s see
... as an NCO the ARMY VALUES are always at play integrity is the top of all we do and lies are lies so with that screw her and all that had a part in the lack of integrity to get her there. That is the same person that will later flag one of their own soldiers for failure to pass their own apft

Response by Cpl Michael Guerin made Aug 13 at 2018 12:22 AM

2018-08-13T00:22:50-04:00

Do a re-test with others that are not under her chain of command. But sounds like a fomplete fail all around. NCO’s are & must be held to a higher standard.

Response by PFC Randy Harrington made Aug 13 at 2018 3:18 AM

2018-08-13T03:18:50-04:00

If she knows it was a false score she’s honor bound to report it and if she doesn’t you are . That said if the promotion doesn’t require that score coming clean should not be a problem you can always say as soon as it was realized y’all tried to figured out exactly what to do

Response by SSG Fred Campbell made Aug 13 at 2018 5:06 AM

2018-08-13T05:06:23-04:00

Giver her a record APFT, if she fails she’s flagged and barred from promotion, if she really wants the stripes, she’ll pass the APFT, as for the old score, water under the bridge, the new score is what counts as far as record.

Response by SGT Joylynn Jackson made Aug 13 at 2018 5:36 AM

2018-08-13T05:36:13-04:00

How I see it is like this, if she can’t pass a pt test she shouldn’t be in the army taking up space. If she is ok with falsifying documents then she doesn’t belong anyway because that will just give a bad example to her present and future soldiers that you don’t have to have integrity and you don’t have to work to maintain the basic standards required of all soldiers. I’d say to fix this make her do extra pt till she passes but if she doesn’t start her separation packet. I personally have a hard time completely condemning her because I don’t know the whole situation of what actually happened. Also I find it hard to fully just blame her because I myself have been forced to make false pt score cards but it was for my at the time warrants and the company commander condoned it, so I honestly feel that until leadership stops doing this how can one blame others for following suit. No it’s not right and I think she needs to go but unfortunately more than just this soldier are doing this and it’s usually seniors who do it. I personally think everyone that does this should be put out but how many warrants, officers, and senior NCOs would actually get called to the carpet for doing the same thing?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 7:54 AM

2018-08-13T07:54:49-04:00

This is beyond unnerving... especially since female personnel have it very easy when it comes to the PT test. I've struggled to meet the standard numerous times and made an honest effort to do well. I probably had a higher raw score than she did yet I'm being held to a different standard because of my gender.

This is the one reason why I cant wait until the ACFT rolls out...

Response by WO1 Edward Stewart made Aug 13 at 2018 1:34 PM

2018-08-13T13:34:59-04:00

As far as the general failure of a PTtesr should be enough to disqualify the soildier. But as leaders I know that NCOs should be held to a higher standard. This is crap that I would expect from a PVT not a potential SGT

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 2:25 PM

2018-08-13T14:25:20-04:00

Have you ever heard of ethical dilemmas? Do NCOs no longer have any integrity. You are NOT politicians. She is evidently not ready to be an NCO

Response by PO1 Barbara Matthews made Aug 13 at 2018 5:31 PM

2018-08-13T17:31:38-04:00

Remember you are not there one whom is affecting her career. If you have substantial proof that she gundecked her score then come forward and be a leader.

She affected her own score and career. She made her bed and now she has to deal with it. She messed up.

Part of being a good leader is doing the right thing even if it isn't popular. What about the soldier who is behind her and didn't make rank because she is picked. Is that fair,

I fully understand the complexity of the physical readiness test. In fact, I got out of the Navy as an E6 with 4 years left to retire. Why?I wasn't able to meet the standard in the run portion of the PRT. I tried but I could not keep a pace. I don't blame anyone about it. My leadership had to do what they had to do and deny my last reenlistment. I hold no bad feelings and have respect for them.

I didn't cheat I took it like a grown-ass woman. I feel better because I didn't cheat the system.

You have a duty and obligation to report it. Whatever happens will happen. You also have to CYA, if it ever comes back on you that you knew and did nothing... Then it will look like you helped her cheat too

It's a lot to think about.

Response by SFC Richard Baerlocher made Aug 14 at 2018 12:18 AM

2018-08-14T00:18:51-04:00

I would suggest a remedial PT to get her in condition. I would also suggest that she volunteer that the previous PT test results were wrong. Give her one chance, no more.

Response by SGT Tony Spencer made Aug 14 at 2018 10:00 AM

2018-08-14T10:00:54-04:00

Well CPL, let me ask YOU this. Are you considered an NCO being a CPL? Let me help ya with that answer, YES you are. Now question number two, is this soldier, since she is promotable but nit pinned yet, in your squad? Platoon, Company? Either way, as an NCO yourself, albeit you are kinda an JR NCO in training you are still considered to be in a MCO position with NCO authority as an CPL. So as an NCO and having the authority of an NCO, if I were you, keeping with the spirit and allining yourself within the terms of the NCO creed, which as a CPL I,hope you,k,iw amd understand the NCO creed, you could go amf speak with the/an NCO within her chain of command and make this problem known.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2018 5:51 PM

2018-08-14T17:51:15-04:00

Is it assumed that the previous was pencil whipped because she failed this one? Did she recently pcs and take a lot of leave? Was the new apft her first one at her new unit?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2018 6:44 PM

2018-08-14T18:44:40-04:00

Falsifying any information to be promoted is pathetic. And the fact that the issue is trying to be covered up is even more so. In my opion, the answer to your question is to decline the promotion, and make an apft oriented fitness plan so that she can live up to the standards that an NCO is. This in itself is poor leadership trying to promote someone because they favor a person over any characteristics of merit or true leadership. Soon enough she will promote and then lead her soldiers and promote her soldiers the same way she was lead and promoted.

Response by CPL Jared Peay made Aug 14 at 2018 7:45 PM

2018-08-14T19:45:49-04:00

I saw this way to much while in. Fat females with e5 and e6 rank. There is no way possible they failed hight and weight. But somehow passed tape tests...

They could never pass PT tests. Yet had rank.

Response by SPC Ryan Pierce made Aug 14 at 2018 8:33 PM

2018-08-14T20:33:24-04:00

I had a company who pencil whipped so many pt scores for some E6 and most E7 and above including officers. Somehow the fat pieces of shit that failed the alternate aerobic exercise (the walk) still got a 280 or higher. I'm sorry I was a Walker too and they failed by every and any standard. When it takes 45 min to do 2.5 miles you failed.

In reference to your question, either she needs to come clean or work her ass off to get a 270 or higher on the next pt test to say the diag was just a fluke

Response by CSM David Draughn made Aug 15 at 2018 1:39 AM

2018-08-15T01:39:03-04:00

She has an integrity problem. She does not deserve becoming and NCO. If one has unquestionable evidence that her supervisor lied for her to get her promoted, I say confront this person. Give them a chance to demonstrate and apply the leadership skills they’ve learned. If the soldier refuses, do the Army, the NCO Corps and the soldiers who will serve under this person a favor. Get rid of this dead weight.

Response by SGT Sean Moore made Aug 15 at 2018 2:00 AM

2018-08-15T02:00:06-04:00

Some of you may not like what I’m about to say, but many top brass and senior NCO’s are some of the most guilty culprits for “pencil whipping” their PT scores & height/weight records... ironically, they’re the same ones who’ll bring punitive action against lower enlisted for failing PT tests and being overweight.

Response by SSG Keith Bodiford (Ret) made Aug 15 at 2018 1:08 PM

2018-08-15T13:08:41-04:00

Talk to your first sgt or plt sgt. Depending on where your foxhole is.

What's done above your pay you can't control, let your leadership do that. You didn't commit or covert the act. Yoy didn't dio anything. . If they try charging you hey Ann attorney.

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made Aug 16 at 2018 12:34 AM

2018-08-16T00:34:45-04:00

To be serious, this is clearly a POG we're talking about and I'll say the same thing to you as I did one of my POG friends; You can be the best dental technician in the world, but if you can't do the right amount of pushups your career is going nowhere.

Unless it becomes evident false pt scores are being used as a form a favortism, I would assist in the cover up until the person got their score up.

Response by 1SG Rudolph Watt made Aug 16 at 2018 12:15 PM

2018-08-16T12:15:26-04:00

I have seen a LTC kicked out of the army for fusing a PT score and then tried to use it to be pinned full bird whIle in a combat Zone, in my years in the army I have seen a large drop of integerity, honest, selflessness in both the NCO and Officers ranks, when I returned home from the middle east and I found it very hard to maintain the standard due to injury received over seas I dropped my retirement papers, I would not ask my subordinate and peers to keep a standard I could not, lead from the front and never ask of soldiers some thing that you are not able to or willing to do.

Response by SGT Joseph Martin made Aug 16 at 2018 6:48 PM

2018-08-16T18:48:46-04:00

No place in the NCO corps for the person who pencil whipped it or her if she knew it was pencil whipped. Hard to believe she doesn’t

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2018 9:28 AM

2018-08-17T09:28:25-04:00

Sounds like somebody had a happy ending and decided it was worth a 300pt score. "aaaaahhhhh! I've never had that before. That was amazing. That a 300 in my book."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2018 5:50 PM

2018-08-17T17:50:01-04:00

Not to take the side of any wrongdoing, but there are several pieces of information that are missing here. For example, what was the time frame between the soldier reporting to the unit and the diagnostic PT test. For example, if her previous duty station was in Florida and she was PCS’d to Ft. Carson, Colorado, that is a severe altitude change that would affect her APFT score in a major way, especially her 2 mile run time, and I as an NCO, would NOT give her an APFT right after she arrived. In other words, was she allowed time to acclimate.

Response by PFC Charles Pressel III made Aug 18 at 2018 12:09 AM

2018-08-18T00:09:05-04:00

If i may this isnt the only one i have seen several people be passed this way to get the next rank. There are many people who are screwed because the people giving the apft are lie i have seen it happen many times. I also believe she does need to have a real apft and needs to be reevaluated

Response by CW3 Robert Hollister made Aug 19 at 2018 9:51 PM

2018-08-19T21:51:41-04:00

What is the chance of her taking another test before she is pinned and passing it?
Never mind, I just saw this post is over a year old. This has been overcome by events.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2018 4:35 AM

2018-08-20T04:35:39-04:00

Unless there is absolute proof little can be done. Would be tough to even have changed down. You can not just jam 2 PT tests back to back and then try to kick out. There is absolutley not nearly enough info here to know what action to take. She failed a dio, nit a record. relax.

Response by SFC Phillip Allen made Aug 23 at 2018 7:58 AM

2018-08-23T07:58:36-04:00

Falsifying official forms, which a PT scorecard is an official document, is punishable under the UCMJ. Both people are party the grader and the soldier. However failing a diagnostic PT test is not itself punishable, administer a record PT and deal with the results in a professional manner. If the person asking the question knows for a fact and says nothing then they are complicit in a conspiracy, that’s just how it works; either report it because the situation is wrong, or keep your mouth shut because you are not a person of integrity or personal courage; the Army values do actually mean something.

Response by SSgt Jeff Moore made Aug 23 at 2018 5:48 PM

2018-08-23T17:48:19-04:00

A trash PT score can come back to haunt you in a combat zone. Dead weight can get a soldier killed, and the less he has to carry, the better his chances of survival.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2018 12:19 AM

2018-08-24T00:19:35-04:00

CPL George S.
This is an integrity issue. Either she should not be an NCO or better. She takes the promotion and embraces her responsibilities. She should be running light poles for 4 miles three days a week and lifting weights 3 days a week. Hopefully she learns pencil wiping readiness and promotable criteria hurt her and her unit. With luck she will not fail her troops the way she has been failed. If she wants to lead she needs to learn to and not be Ms. Nice NCO. Sometimes the best way we can lead is to punch someone in the testicles or breasts, knock them down, then give them a hand up, dust them off and help them in the right direction. Over the long term this will not damage her career no matter how it pans out. Every good SNCO I know and have worked with had NJP as a young soldier.

V/R

Crusty MSGT

Response by SFC Joseph Dunphy made Aug 25 at 2018 9:01 PM

2018-08-25T21:01:30-04:00

Refer up the chain, and it ll probably end up with JAG. Since it s a confidential personnel matter, the prudent thing to do is alert the responsible superior, make a memo for the record your self that you documented it as soon as you beceme aware of it, and let those with knowledge of the law and UCMJ figure out the appropriate response. Truly echelons above your pay grade. After documenting it, say nothing about it except to cooperate with the authorities you had to report it to. Don t make two messes to clean up. My personal reaction is that a faked score is unfair to all the soldiers who did what they were supposed to do, and passed, and that a slot would be filled by someone who 1) is depriving a deserving soldier of a promotion and worse 2) is creating dissention in the ranks because it s quite likely that everyone knows that a faked score is not deserved, and it creates tension and disrespect for the commander, whether ot not the commanding officer officially knew about it. The PT test is the way it is for a very important reason--you need to rely on fellow soldiers when the rounds go live.

Response by CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) made Aug 27 at 2018 12:41 AM

2018-08-27T00:41:05-04:00

Granted, this was a year ago but... If no one can prove she falsified (or knew it was falsified) the first PT test score then it's hard to prove anything without a witness. You say she was given a false 300 APFT score - based on what? Are you a witness? How do you know this? Does she know it's not the right score or are people assuming this? How do you know she knows? Is this just an assumption because she failed the following diagnostic? Why did she fail the diagnostic? Was she sick or injured? Maybe there's a reason she failed it. Maybe she did score a 300 initially. Seems like some are jumping to conclusions without knowing all the facts OR they have not all been expressed here. There are many more questions that need to be asked here.

If what you are saying is accurate she should have immediately come forward and stated there was a mistake on her initial PT test. If you know this is the accurate version then you should have reported it up your CoC.

Response by 1SG Victor Sotil made Sep 15 at 2018 10:25 PM

2018-09-15T22:25:36-04:00

CPL Santos, first of all, how do you know her APFT was falsified? if you do not have proof, do not entertain rumors, if you do report it to your PSG. Now, all Soldiers will receive an APFT upon arrival at any unit, if the Soldier fails, then he/she will be a flag. If she is promotable she can very well lose her promotable status. Your question is what to do in order not to affect her career? Her career is already affected, any 1SG will see the big difference between a 300 APFT score and a barely passing or even failing. A 300 APFT Soldier on his/her worst day will pass the APFT. Bottom line there is no room for an NCO that do not have any integrity at all.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Sep 17 at 2018 1:11 AM

2018-09-17T01:11:52-04:00

Excuse me? You are a CPL in the US Army. That means that someone, somewhere saw something in you that they liked enough to laterally promote you into a leadership position. Being a leader means you do what is RIGHT, not what is least damaging. If there is a cancer you treat it or excise it before it brings down the whole unit.

From what you have recounted this soldier, that is up for promotion, took a score that was not earned and there is no way, NO WAY, that they did not know they did not earn it. Zero. Every APFT taker has off times and does not perform to their best. EVERY SINGLE ONE. A variation up or down is to be expected. Off tests are going to happen as are tests that are up.

You as a a junior NCO have a DUTY, an OBLIGATION to the Unit, the ARMY and to yourself to take this to your command as clearly this person LACKED the integrity to do so on their own. That person does not belong in a position of leadership and needs further counseling on the morals, ethics and code to BE a leader of soldiers. This person is about to be pinned and placed into a position to lead and influence others that are coming up in ranks behind them. Their behaviour thus far is NOT something one wants to see fostered in the military in any MOS, anywhere.

Response by CSM James Winslow made Sep 19 at 2018 3:13 PM

2018-09-19T15:13:12-04:00

I certainly agree with the bits here about Integrity and Honesty, but we are still a nation of Laws, and the rule is "Innocent until Proven Guilty". Even in the Army, today. How do you know for certain that the score is false? Did she confide in you? How did you find out that the record was falsified? This is more to this story than is being told here. It is actually an easy fix. A Phone call to her former unit, an email to the commander or other such action to verify the results is the best way ahead. If it turns out the record wasn't falsified, promote her. If there is any question, a commanders inquiry may be in order. But even that may be premature. She was Selected, Trained, Educated and was declared eligible by her previous command. It was a "diagnostic" APFT, not a record, so she remains eligible. Even failing an APFT after being promoted is not grounds for delay of promotion or reduction. If her current command continues to delay her Promotion on the grounds of a failed "Diagnostic" APFT, a visit to the IG is in order.

Response by SFC Tracy Scott made Oct 10 at 2018 1:41 PM

2018-10-10T13:41:28-04:00

I believe there are two issues associated with this current situation.
1. The NCO that indirectly or directly scored the soldier.
2. The Soldier associated with the PT-Test.
The soldier in question from the information provided was given a diagnostic PT-Test for which that soldier (Failed) prior to this, the soldier in question had scored a (300) maximum score on the associated PT-Test as prior to this documents have indicated
Proving the fact that the soldier's Pt-Test was either changed or incorrectly score will be difficult unless the soldier or the NCO scoring or that changed the results admits to the incident ( which by all accounts will not happen)

The soldier that Failed to perform and meet the Minimum required score to receive a passing score should be counseled for the failure, the company commanders, or the Bn directive should be followed as to how Pt test failures are handled.

The NCO associated with the PT-test in question should also be Counseled with regards possible integrity and action unbecoming of a Non-Commisioned Officer, this could be a direct reflection listed and associated with that NCO's NCO'er, the NCO Should also be advised that these allegations are taken seriously and any continued action of this nature will result in corrective action up to and including action under UCMJ. ( this is still suspect to the fact of did or didn't they change or improperly score the test, but the soldier should still be Counseled )

All personnel within the company Training and testing section should also be Counseled as well, and thereafter all personnel selected to conduct and score associated testing should be counseled, in regard to the expectation of the testing area selected required and required performance standard, this will ensure that all personnel have been shown what is acceptable and what is not acceptable as related to the proper scoring, integrity and proper conduct becoming of an NCO.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2018 5:27 PM

2018-10-16T17:27:06-04:00

If you're going to cheat on your APFT, and we all know it happens way more often than many would like to admit, why the hell would you give yourself a 300? Sounds like this soldier is just a really terrible decision maker.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Oct 21 at 2018 8:09 AM

2018-10-21T08:09:05-04:00

Okay to much missing information. How do you know her APFT was falsified? then lets move forward from that.

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made Oct 22 at 2018 1:01 AM

2018-10-22T01:01:52-04:00

It's been a year since this question was posted; So what steps did you take to remedy the "questionable" PT score?

Response by Pvt Robert L. Lamoreaux made Nov 2 at 2018 5:57 PM

2018-11-02T17:57:09-04:00

I can only address this from two viewpoints: one as a retired civilian lawyer and one as an Instructor in a chapter of the Young Marines organization when I was 69 and 70 years of age.
As a lawyer, I'd question how the inquirer knew the test result was falsified. Was it intentionally falsified or was it simply a very lenient tester? Or did she really get the score reported but grew out of shape between tests? From the description, it appears that she knew she didn't earn the score, but how badly was it off?
From the standpoint of being an old Instructor, let me say that I ran with the kids and did PT with them, yelling "If I can do it, YOU can do it!" (And I was wearing "utilities" or BDUs and "boondockers" while they were wearing shorts, t-shirts, and sneakers. Thank God for asprin!) My point is, if you want to be a leader you have to be expected to hurt, bleed, and sacrifice...And be honest about your own capabilities. The word "leadership" is already being so diluted and mixed up with "management" that it is losing its honorable meaning. Just my opinion.

Response by SPC Joseph Weaver made Nov 4 at 2018 6:28 AM

2018-11-04T06:28:22-05:00

If this Soldier has done well in every area, then this PT score should not hinder a promotion. Yes fitness, is part of readiness, but when it comes to promotions, it would depend on what exactly will she be doing in her career. If she is not in a combat unit, and or a unit, that needs very physically fit, soldiers, then a curve should be applied, not only to her, but to anyone. I remember, those PT tests, I hated the 2 mile run, which the NCO in charge, was so adamant about. well I could barely breath through my nose due to nasal polyps and an inherited screwed up, ears, nose and throat, compounded by major Hearing loss.Somedays, I could do that run easily and always felt good for beating the clock. On other days, my allergies, polyps, would just hinder my running, and I would come in 5 to 10 seconds off the required time. Physical training is important, but sometimes, mother Nature plays her Joke on you.I say promote her, she obviously has much potential. one other thing, when you are but a mere 19 year old soldier, who raises his hand for a 50 mile walk through the alps in two days( I must have dropped a crazy pill), has got to have some kahunas, well I went to Switzerland to Bern for a 25 mile walk the first day, and when I woke up for the second day, I could barely walk, the blisters from a grueling route through those mountains. I willed myself back into my fatigues, and combat boots, and limped to the starting line for the next 25 miles would tell a story of endurance and not sweating the Pain, that obviously every one had, well even though we were hurting, when we approached the finish line ,and the crowds cheering us on, we went for it, and marched down the BLVD. like it was graduation day, even doing an eyes right. A great feeling to accomplish what was then a difficult test of how well your training was, and if you could keep up. (the colonel fell out, and when were all returned to our garrison, the colonel gave a speech), yes he admitted that he fell out, and to the men who continued the hike, and finished. No PT test that year, the colonel says a PT test is not anything to compare with a 50 mile volksmarch in big mountains area. as for me, Anything to get out of that darn two mile run....Army sure did challenge you almost everyday.

Response by MSgt Martin Okulski made Nov 8 at 2018 11:20 AM

2018-11-08T11:20:55-05:00

It was cheating - same as if they'd studied together. Same as if friends passed test questions to each other. All involved should receive an article 15 or be dishonarably discharged. People have been reduced in rank as well. It's hard to believe that she wasn't aware she was out of shape. So she lied as well.

Response by SSG Samuel Mitrovich made Nov 17 at 2018 2:27 PM

2018-11-17T14:27:41-05:00

Her actions most likely deprived another Soldier of an important promotion. From the information provided, she appears to have no concern that her actions negatively impacted someone else’s career or enlistment and is only worried about being caught. I would bring this to the attention of the chain of command and lose not one night’s sleep or have a single regret.

Response by Cpl Tyler Therrien made Nov 18 at 2018 1:24 PM

2018-11-18T13:24:49-05:00

As a Marine her lack of integrity is to me utterly unacceptable. She need to be pulled aside and given the opportunity to come clean on her own or face the music. For you, if she refuses to come clean go 1st to your Sgtmajor and allow the process to work. If you go directly to your xo or co you may piss off the NCOs above you- not advisable LOL

Response by SSG Ronald Colwell made Nov 18 at 2018 9:54 PM

2018-11-18T21:54:02-05:00

How was it rectified as you commented. She and whoever conspired this should be held accountable for their actions.. so sad that this goes on. I’ve seen it done. After be a scorer and hearing that it was changed by someone higher up

Response by CPO David Sharp made Nov 22 at 2018 7:54 PM

2018-11-22T19:54:32-05:00

This is falsifying an official record. All I can see is General Discharge under less than Honorable Conditions. I have no mercy for those who will knowingly put a false record entry.

Response by SSG Rheta Perez made Nov 25 at 2018 7:33 AM

2018-11-25T07:33:34-05:00

It’s been a while since I had to worry about a PT test, but it seems to me that this makes the army sounds like it’s turning into a bunch of cheaters. I’m disappointed, but not surprised. They wanted women to be on the same level as men, but noting the physical differences, they have to resort to cheating. I have other ideas as to how she was allowed to pass, but I’ll keep those to myself.

Response by SFC Wendell Pruitt made Nov 28 at 2018 2:04 AM

2018-11-28T02:04:51-05:00

I have been out over 25 years but I can say this without any question in my mind, The APFT has and likely always will be an area where far to many get pencil whipped outcomes, I understand the importance of Physical fitness, I also understand testing to a set standard on a regular basis, I don't however see the point in all of the other testing that used to go on regularly. I recall one period in my own service where I did 5 PT tests in 11 months, One before My PCS, One shortly after arrival with minimal time to adjust to the new location, Another prior to attending an NCO Academy, another because the New Battalion Commander wanted 100% of the unit tested within 30 days and the last because He didn't like the results of the previous one. I passed each one but by the time the last one rolled around I was over taking PT tests and my score reflected a minimal effort and from that point on its all I gave for the rest of my time in that Command. I have always believed the test fails to give a true picture of soldier readiness, I have always felt it is over emphasized in its importance and is used as a weapon against some, by people in positions of power.

Response by COL Stanley Zezotarski made Nov 29 at 2018 8:35 PM

2018-11-29T20:35:24-05:00

She needs to come clean and accept the consequences. You are under no ethical obligation to remain silent about an untruth. Would be ideal if could approach her and ask her to fess up on her own as a matter of honor. But up front with her that as a matter of conscious you cannot go along with this false score. You don't have to give her an ultimatum, it only needs to be a discussion. Heck, you could even offer moral support by accompanying her with your superiors.

Response by COL Stanley Zezotarski made Nov 29 at 2018 8:38 PM

2018-11-29T20:38:26-05:00

It's better for her to fess up. You're right in struggling with your conscience. No matter what the consequences for her, you can't put your own integrity at risk--it's priceless. An option might be to approach her and encourage here to confess to her superiors, then offer moral support by accompanying her. Otherwise, you have no choice but to say it like it is. You don't have to offer her an ultimatum, you just have to say this is a discussion in both your best interests.

Response by 1stLt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2018 4:17 PM

2018-12-02T16:17:00-05:00

NJP.

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Dec 2 at 2018 4:24 PM

2018-12-02T16:24:05-05:00

Talk to the person who passed her.

Response by LCpl Stephen Arnold made Dec 6 at 2018 2:13 PM

2018-12-06T14:13:35-05:00

This is a big problem. I was in the Army National Guard, and was handed several PT score cards to sign for our AGRs, none of whom took the test in front of me. I refused to sign them, as I pointed out that ordering me to forge an official document, in my eyes, was an unlawful order I would not carry out. I had a similar situation years later when, as the NCO myself, I failed my run by 5 seconds or so. I later discovered that my score had been "Pencil whipped' by a well meaning buddy, but I refused the score and demanded the score I had earned. my Soldiers were more appreciative of my integrity than they were a 5 second gap in time I fixed the following month anyway. Bottom line is, we are only as good a leader as our own personal integrity allows us to be.

Response by CSM Greg Clancy made Dec 10 at 2018 9:45 AM

2018-12-10T09:45:39-05:00

CPL Santos, see this is what's wrong with our society today and our military. People just dont "DO THE RIGHT THING" anymore! I assume you are a friend of this Soldier with no sense of integrity? You are correct, you are complicit in knowing the whole story. To start with I would grab your friend and have a serious heart to heart with her about doing the right thing and coming clean with herself and her immediate leadership. This is what professional Soldiers do, they police up each and keep each other in line. There isn't always going to be a squad leader or platoon sergeant around to wet nurse every Soldier. Soldiers are expected to take care of each other during good times and bad. Its just what we do. Forget about the damage to her career and the short term affects this has and will continue to have.The bigger issue is her lack of integrity and that will continue to fester as she stays in the military. Somewhere down the road she will encounter a situation that is similar to what she did and feel that she " got away with it" and its no big deal that she'll be tempted to do it again. I think she is obviously missing the big picture; she has broken the trust we all must have to survive. Without trust there is nothing. Also she has to take responsibility for what has happened. It Doesn't matter the circumstances. She needs to own it and be accountable to herself and her oath. So, go grab your battle buddy and tell her shes wrong, she needs to stand up and accept responsibility for what has happened, put all her cards on the table with her leadership and then let the chips fall where they may. If she does not come clean then she's bigger problems ahead of her. One thing that always pissed me off to no end was why Soldiers would let other Soldiers get away with bullshit like this without any " peer to peer" counseling. I mean everyone in that unit must be totally fine with one of their own having no integrity and putting one over on everyone else. Right? I certainly hope not. But you know about it and I'm sure others do as well. So why is ok for her to do this? Doesn't that piss you you off? Her actions have NO place in the military and cannot be tolerated. That said I'm all for trying to salvage a wayward Soldier before kicking them to the curb. I do believe in second chances but Soldiers have to earn that and of course they have to earn back the trust they broke and be willing to endure some asspain to get back to being a Soldier that contributes to the team. If they cannot then Walmart is always hiring greeters. We've all made mistakes in our Army career and are better for them, thats how we learn. No one is perfect but you have to accept what's happened and Charlie mike. Remember perception is reality. What people see is what they believe never mind the backstory. If she gets away with this other Soldiers will see it and 1. Never trust her 2. Worse thinks its ok and accepted. Got it? This is bigger than you and her! CPL Santos DO THE RIGHT THING!

Response by MSG Moises Maldonado made Dec 13 at 2018 11:53 PM

2018-12-13T23:53:56-05:00

In my Opinion Most of Any Score in PT is Pencil Whipped for Women.. ..I was in for 22.5 Years and Never had a 300 Pt Score.. Never Failed a Test But never Maxed it.. That Said.. Most Females Can't Even Brake Plane on Push Ups.. They just Bob Head and Barely Flex the Elbow... That's What happens when The Standards are Lowered to accommodate Political Correctness. . Yeah... Those poor Souls.. Let's Give them a Break.. and So it goes.. .. I don't Care let's have a PT Test Score Even across the Board.. An E-5 Male get X $$$ in Pay.. So does a Female.. Why Then have Different Standards? Don't Give me that BS of Skeletal & Muscle Difference.. You are in the ARMY now,, Deal With it... Did I mentioned I'm From the (Old)ARMY Decades Ago... Probably This Particular Female E-4(p) wasn't even Born When I Retired..

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made Dec 14 at 2018 5:17 PM

2018-12-14T17:17:47-05:00

Simple and the same as an incident I had to confront when an employee falsified critical measurements from a gas turbine combustion section, I fired him. This soldier has no place in the military, she had to know the test was falsified and went along with it. Bad conduct discharge...……… period. We have enough corrupt people in DC, the military doesn't need them.

Response by COL Al Fracker made Dec 16 at 2018 3:59 PM

2018-12-16T15:59:06-05:00

As others have commented, this isn't about PT. It's about integrity. About 40 some years ago, the Army switched from a demanding 5 event PT test to a much easier 3 event test. Is the Army addressing the current challenges of AIT PT failures? Yes. They have extended some MOS training by 1-2 weeks. Students no longer must pass PT test to graduate and report to a unit. F8nallt, the Army has approved a new PT test. I suspect it will be harder to pass than the current one, and it is resource intensive, so it likely won't survive. Yes, with technology, many jobs are no longer physical...which is wht we have GS employees. Soldiers should have a standard, and if one wants to get promoted, the PT test is really easy to pass. NCOs (and officers) lead by example. If they don't, they are a discredit to the Army.

Response by CAPT Carlos Flanagan made Dec 16 at 2018 5:03 PM

2018-12-16T17:03:44-05:00

OK, this is very simple. Step one, train for PT test. Step two, pass the PT test. I'm guessing that this soldier thought she would never have to take another PT because the last one was perfect. Never pays to try to cheat the man. In this case that man is the leadership process.

Response by CH (MAJ) Tom Conner made Dec 20 at 2018 12:58 AM

2018-12-20T00:58:26-05:00

Failing a PT test is damaging to one's career, regardless of the reasons. A Soldier's responsibility is to maintain a state of fitness and be prepared at any given time to take, and pass, a PT test. Had the Soldier brought it to the attention that she received a pencil-whipped score, the onus would be on the NCO. Now that it has been a while, the NCO has moved on, and she has failed a subsequent test, SHE is going to have to face the consequences. My question is why are you concerned about damaging her career? She took care of that on her own by failing the PT test!

Response by 1SG Jeffrey Mullett made Dec 20 at 2018 3:26 PM

2018-12-20T15:26:22-05:00

She is not the only integrity issues in the Army, but if she is willing to change, she can take responsibility for her actions, take the reduction and possible Article 15 (further reduction) as a lesson. She can either become a better Soldier, and Human Being, or she can take a less-than honorable, and find a line of work better suited to her level of honor, or lack there of.
The NCO who pencil whipped the APFT should also be held accountable.
I would be more concerned with an NCO who would be willing to do this, because NOT ONLY is he/she not looking out for the Soldier, and providing bad judgement and a bad example, but they are lacking Ethics, Honor AND Duty. Any ONE of those is grounds for removal.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2018 6:25 PM

2018-12-22T18:25:40-05:00

Make SM take another test and there ya go. No way to be sure of the past, take new test and run with it. The army needs to use the rules that are in place. For too long we have "protected" our friends and worried about careers instead of the Army. This is not a normal profession, one soldier's career does not mean more than the strength of the force. It does not matter if someone "needs points", that's their problem, not the Army's. If they did lie, it will happen again and it can be found and acted on. It's a damn PT test, it's the easiest thing the army has.
Is it used to much to assess an entire soldier, absolutely. It sucks in every way, but it's what we have. A damn 180 is all that's needed, and for some reason the army makes it that a 300 is more important than getting an education.

Response by SFC Nyla Newville made Dec 23 at 2018 4:33 PM

2018-12-23T16:33:41-05:00

how can you not know your score. you want me to believe she didn't know 300 wow that's unbelieveable. We use to look up what we needed to pass and kept track of how we were doing.
The damage is done and somebody needs to stand up for what they did.

Response by CPL Richard Henry made Dec 25 at 2018 12:02 PM

2018-12-25T12:02:31-05:00

To say she didnt know her PTSD score was faked is unbelievable an obviously she is in bad shape or she could just take another test so that says to me she does not care about being a leader it's the little things that show what a person is made of just myself how can I expect to lead when I cant do it myself an if she is lying to herself think what she is capable of just a old soldiers opinion

Response by PO2 Michael Henry made Dec 26 at 2018 1:14 PM

2018-12-26T13:14:59-05:00

Simply put, she should own it and decline the promotion for failing the diagnostic PT and for having a fake score. Admit any knowledge of the fake score if she knows anything. Take whatever ass-chewing or administrative punishment that comes her way and move on. Be ready for the next promotion board.

Response by SGT Lashaunda Perkins made Dec 29 at 2018 10:59 AM

2018-12-29T10:59:02-05:00

I feel she needs to retake the apft and the points should be recalculated. She didn't pencil whip the record, her NCO did and I'm sure he instructed her not to say anything which put her in a very awkward situation. Most senior NCO and officers lack integrity and everyone knows that is why they test seperate from lower enlisted soldiers and always pass smh...It starts at the top!!! I know you guys have seen high ranking soldiers walking around fat and sloppy wondering how they are still in and haven't been demoted. So stop the madness

Response by SSgt Liam Babington made Dec 29 at 2018 11:02 AM

2018-12-29T11:02:50-05:00

A delay in the promotion until she passes the PT test is in order! She can be counseled accordingly! And the matter can be dealt with quietly! I it what I did when I was in! She has to prove herself, period! Sometimes the carrot and stick method works, integrity is built in and will teach her a lesson!

Response by PO2 Paul Dempsey made Dec 29 at 2018 1:39 PM

2018-12-29T13:39:17-05:00

Duty and honor. She appears possibly to failed with both. The solution. PT in the morning, PT at lunch and PT in the evening until she meets the standard. It's her duty to be fit. Making the wrong into a right would go a long way to restore her honor. You shouldn't have to back into the promotion line or pay line. We all have mirrors I personally like to look into mine and respect the person I see

Response by 1SG Chuck B made Dec 30 at 2018 12:13 AM

2018-12-30T00:13:54-05:00

Send her to a military doctor and have a diagnostic physical done, I'm sure she has a pain or injury maybe shin splints. I'm sure she could be put on temporary rehab to get back fit to fight. Otherwise its the exit door which is probably inevitable anyway if she can't pass PT.

Response by 1SG Chuck B made Dec 30 at 2018 12:21 AM

2018-12-30T00:21:59-05:00

Send her to see a doctor. I'm sure she will likely come up with shin splints during her recovery. She could be given a temp profile which could allow her some time to get back in shape. She is in control of her own destiny, so its all on her to get back to being fit. There are some commands that need to be shaken up so should the ball drop its their own fault. Such a thing shouldn't occur in today's military. There are still waiting lines to get in. A dirtbag is just that, plus a burden on the entire team, especially moral because the word is already out, I guarantee it!

Response by SSG Greg Koch made Jan 2 at 2019 3:03 PM

2019-01-02T15:03:57-05:00

Retest. If she fails, flag. Counseling statements need to be in order. It is obvious that this soldier has zero integrity, honor, personal courage, a lack of morality, and a complete disregard of what it means to be an NCO.

Response by LCpl Kenneth Heath made Jan 19 at 2019 2:47 AM

2019-01-19T02:47:50-05:00

If they're willing to lie and cheat to get ahead, why would I care about their military career? They obviously don't.

Response by SPC Stanton Hill made Jan 26 at 2019 10:52 PM

2019-01-26T22:52:38-05:00

Go to AIG and speak with them. But back it up with solid proof. Then it should be in your favor. This is from an old Army Vet. Been there

Response by SPC Stanton Hill made Jan 26 at 2019 10:55 PM

2019-01-26T22:55:38-05:00

I agree with 1st Sgt statement also

Response by 1stLt Jon Finstad made Jan 26 at 2019 11:28 PM

2019-01-26T23:28:51-05:00

I'll be blunt here too. I would never want someone of questionable integrity under my command. Period.

Response by Bob Smithereens made Jan 27 at 2019 1:20 PM

2019-01-27T13:20:31-05:00

Get the women out of the military. Probably the woman got her false PT score by "servicing" the NCO.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Jan 27 at 2019 3:58 PM

2019-01-27T15:58:35-05:00

Soldiers generally don;t preform very well on PT tests when their ill. I suggest the soldier be given time to recoperate and try the PT test again.

Response by SGT James Colbert made Jan 27 at 2019 5:51 PM

2019-01-27T17:51:30-05:00

Well that goes against the army values..LDRSHIP.. not to say about the NCO CREED.

Response by SSG Brian L. made Jan 28 at 2019 5:02 PM

2019-01-28T17:02:44-05:00

Someone needs to check the weapons qual too..... jesus

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2019 4:55 AM

2019-01-29T04:55:24-05:00

Unless the Soldier who took the PT test or the NCO who administered it admits to something, you have nothing to pursue punitive action from a legal point of view. We can speculate all we want, but all the CO can do is require another record PT test. This is why we frequently have Commanders and 1SGs preside and observe record PT tests in a group setting.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2019 3:43 AM

2019-01-30T03:43:23-05:00

When I was in an AIT unit, the Basic Training BDE down the street frequently sent us some kids that had obviously not passed a PT test. One kid, I still remember his name, showed up with three PT cards (the normal pt test form with four or five tests per page). He had failed every single test miserably *except* the test one day before graduation. Every single test was less than 100 pts total. Most recent was barely passing bct standards (50 in each event). He got to us, and his ait pt test was back where it had been all along.

It was possible that he was sandbagging, hoping to get out. So we retested him and it was obvious that he just couldn’t pass on account of being fat. He wanted to stay in, wanted a good pt test score, but he couldn’t pass the test.

I was pissed. I told him to grab his duffel bag and I grabbed his manilla paperwork envelope and we marched right back to his bde hq. I showed the s3 nco his pt cards and said I wanted a refund. The s3 nco didn’t know what to do so he called the bn 3 who called the company tng room to take their Soldier back until he could meet pt standards.

I thought that was the end of the story. Later that day, the bde csm brought him to my bn csm who brought him back to my tng room. Bde csm was apalled that I would question the integrity of two of his ds’s.

It was then that I realized how and why there are some (not many) fatties in my army.

Response by SGT Scott Henderson made Jan 30 at 2019 10:43 PM

2019-01-30T22:43:36-05:00

First off... he was probably balls deep in her- THAT'S his reason.
Secondly... fuck her "career". She got a copy of her APFT prior to PCS (she had daily opportunities to correct it) AND she didn't plan on saying anything until she failed her diagnostic.
Now to the important stuff: I'm going to assume this is your first time playing CYA. Tell the first line supervisor above him (i.e. PSG if he's a squad leader/1SG if it was a PSG), or just go directly to your 1SG. That gets the target off your back if it does come back; which it most likely won't- it's a fucking PT test and command has more important shit to worry about. YOURS will probably shrug it off and say it's the problem of the gaining unit.

Advise she does the same on her end as she's been found out anyway.

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Feb 1 at 2019 3:54 PM

2019-02-01T15:54:49-05:00

If You see something, say something.

Response by PO1 Donald Vinson made Feb 1 at 2019 6:45 PM

2019-02-01T18:45:11-05:00

This is a ongoing situation these days. When I served, I was the Command PT Coordinator and failed personnel consistently. What happened next was to see this person transfer to another unit and get promoted and when I brought this up the higher ups, somehow it got changed in the computer system by Administration. I'm glad I had hard copies (paperwork) that justified my suspicion that someone is changing failures to passing scores. Needles to say I resigned my position at PT Coordinator that I wasn't going to be part of unethical conduct especially when I'm out there busting my ass to make sure I had a good passing score to lead by example. I think this happens in all branches of service. Now that I'm retired, I hope that it get better but I don't think it will change especially if they have a buddy in Admin. Best advice is stay ethical and if you or someone is given a false score, speak up immediately and be true to yourself and your Branch of Service. Thanks for reading my thoughts on this subject.

Response by SSG Michael Taylor made Feb 2 at 2019 11:23 AM

2019-02-02T11:23:40-05:00

CPL, best wishes in this. It's a touchy subject.

You aren't allowed to call out a 300+ APFT female when she fails...that's sexist.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2019 7:17 PM

2019-02-02T19:17:09-05:00

Let's be real she only made it that far because she is a female.

Response by SrA Alan Dirk Scott made Feb 3 at 2019 6:22 PM

2019-02-03T18:22:15-05:00

As a soldier as a human being total and rigorous honesty, is critical. no other option.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2019 8:35 AM

2019-02-05T08:35:09-05:00

I am a retiree, and a former inspector general. I recommend someone contact the inspector general at her current chain of command to investigate this situation. The soldier is definitely at fault if she had knowledge of the false PT test. However, the bigger problem is the NCO who gave her the test. That individual’s career should be stopped in its tracks, and no one in the current chain of command has any authority over that NCO. The IG can reach across multiple installations, conduct a professional investigation, and most importantly document findings in a permanent database. The grader’s career should stop in its tracks. They may not get discharged, but may not receive another promotion when a centralized board conducts a records screening.

Response by SGT J Dent made Feb 5 at 2019 10:16 AM

2019-02-05T10:16:49-05:00

Get their ass to the gym and make it ligit.

Response by SFC Byron Perry made Feb 5 at 2019 5:37 PM

2019-02-05T17:37:59-05:00

Why is someone who is willing to submit a false PT test score to get a promotion careers worth saving?

Response by LTC Robin Gronovius made Feb 13 at 2019 11:12 AM

2019-02-13T11:12:53-05:00

I never could understand why people would pencil whip their PT scores, just stay in shape. Even today, after nearly 8 years of retirement, I can still max my push ups and sit ups. While I still run, I would need some time to get my run time down to an acceptable (for me) time. A habit I started in college during ROTC, I would do three sets of 30 push ups and sit ups each morning. I would knock out 30 push ups, roll over and do 30 sit ups and repeat two more sets. Takes about 5 minutes today to do my sets.

When I was in an AC/RC position and let senior officers and NCOs take their own PT tests in small groups, I was amazed at the amount of soldiers that returned with a stack of PT cards, but on a June Saturday morning, were bone dry. At least come back sweaty and look like you just finished a run. I had one major throw a fit when a second group of majors show up bone dry with PT cards. Her group looked like a typical group of soldiers that just finished a PT test. The other group claimed they had just returned from Doughboy Field (the PT field), but she said her group was just there and they did not see the second group. I told that group to try again.

An easy way to double check a PT test is by run time. If a soldier just wants to do the minimum 180 points with 60 in each event, it is easy to stop when the grader calls out the exact number of repetitions required for your push ups or sit ups. Just get to that number and stop. But if your run time is 18:20 (for example) and your PT run time is exactly 18:20, you are extremely good, very lucky or you pencil whipped the score.

If you came in one second late at 18:21, you'd have scored 59 points and failed. If you ran maybe 5-6 seconds faster, you would have scored 61 points, one more than you needed.

Also, I was an avid runner, running about 35-40 miles a week, competing in 5k and 10ks and an occasional half marathon. I knew who was faster than me and who wasn't. Bring me a PT score card that is better than my 2 mile run time and you look like you can't run to your car without getting winded, I'm going to question your results.

Response by SPC Marguerite Wright made Feb 13 at 2019 7:46 PM

2019-02-13T19:46:28-05:00

The damage or lack thereof is not your concern. You do what needs to be done and drive on. She knowingly did the wrong thing. Whatever fallout happens, happens. She deserves whatever she gets. You don't cheat on a PT test. You just don't. We work our asses off to earn those scores and it is not fair to get an inflated score simply for doing the wrong thing because at any point your fitness may influence an outcome in the field. Similar to if someone says you can shoot a gun and hit a target and you cannot. If you cannot field strip a weapon and hit the damned target, then you don't get qualified because that would make you a deficit to your team. Protecting someone like that is not in anyone's best interests. She should have thought of the consequences of her actions before the crap hit the fan. SMDH.

Response by SFC Scott Parkhurst made Feb 17 at 2019 12:32 AM

2019-02-17T00:32:15-05:00

Wow, that's a tough call...but only speaking for myself, I would do the honorable thing and just suck it up and say something because that is how I was brought up and that is Honor with the Army...we "shouldn't" lie, cheat nor steal. She has to look at herself every day in the mirror.....

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2019 5:40 PM

2019-02-28T17:40:32-05:00

CPL,
As a CSM I ran into this with some of my FTUS (Full timers). I caught them doctoring their own test one day out back of the unit bldg. Having been given a heads up on this I had only one response, write them up, formally counsel them and pass this own to my JAG for Article 15 actions. Sorry to say that I have no need for anyone Soldier and especially an NCO that has no integrity or inclination to not have the courage to say no to such things. The Soldier's actions of failing to correct the wrong for whatever reason doesn't enter the equation. If she full well knew what was done she should have fixed then and reported it to her Superior. The military has a hard enough in the Reserve and Guard with APFT failures, this is worse. Deal with it or you comprise your integrity as a Leader by not correcting it!

CSM(R) Vincent

Response by SGT Josh Moyes made Mar 1 at 2019 9:43 AM

2019-03-01T09:43:21-05:00

Put the turd back in her pocket. This is her mess to clean up. If she doesn’t do the right thing, then she is the turd and flush her. No integrity; no promotion. Simple.

Response by Maj Robert Lang made Mar 1 at 2019 3:24 PM

2019-03-01T15:24:19-05:00

She committed a fraud on everyone between her actual score and what was recorded. At a minimum she should lose the current promotion and on more stripe. The turd who lied for her, he needs to be fully investigated to see what favors he took from her, and then get a Big Chicken Dinner.

Response by SPC James Moya made Mar 1 at 2019 9:50 PM

2019-03-01T21:50:00-05:00

A great leader motivates. A good manager, organizes. I cannot say that this person is a good manger or organizer because the soldier obviously failed to plan for the APFT. I also cannot say that this soldier is a good leader either, because there appears to already be a lack of confidence from those concerned. From experience, I watched 15 people at Fort Hood all receive article 15s and rank reductions for cheating on their education records to score points under the old promotion system. I can tell you that your soldier not only deserves to lose rank, but also deserves to receive an article 15. What this soldier did was take a promotion away from an otherwise already qualified solder. Integrity means doing the right thing even when no one is watching. This does not mean that this soldier cannot bounce back. Some of the best leaders I've known in the Army have been demoted at least once, and these folks learned from the error, bounced back, and came out even stronger because of it. If you are looking for a way to whitewash this, you too are running the slippery slope of failing as a manager and a leader. Always remember one thing, no one fires or demotes a soldier. The soldier fires or demotes themselves.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 2 at 2019 11:57 AM

2019-03-02T11:57:48-05:00

You have no role since she is in another unit now. Your previous role would have been to speak up when it occurred. You should in fact identify the person who assisted her and let your unit take care of that issue. She is wrong, as is the person who supported this act in her records prior to her PCS move. The good news is that she failed and will not be pinned if she does not pass. If her 1SG is in there job, he or she will realize their was something hokey with records and contact the losing unit, and from there connect the dots and bring about a fair and equitable solution for all who were complicit, including you. It does not take a genius to figure out that someone who recently scored 300 should not fail a subsequent test. What you may want to do to help your friend and you to get ahead of this is to tell her to come clean on the other side.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2019 5:45 PM

2019-03-02T17:45:33-05:00

Step 1. Invent time machine.
Step 2. Use time machine to travel to moment before the decision was made to conspire to defraud the Army and violate Army values.
Short of that, the "SGT," needs to contact JAG for a legal opinion and options.
I'm not certain that you have a legal obligation to report this, it's the moral dilemma that you need to work through.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Mar 2 at 2019 9:36 PM

2019-03-02T21:36:38-05:00

Man up, come clean about the false score. And decline the promotion. Integrity will earn her more support than lying.

Response by SPC Americo Garcia made Mar 3 at 2019 8:26 AM

2019-03-03T08:26:30-05:00

Let's do an initial pft to see if you can still do 300 cause corporal course or no school is going to be impressed. So were taking the top pfters and see where they sit so after the promotion we can get them in a bit quicker to school. Play it that way it's not forcing anyone. But just a recheck and involve others who were top and pormoteable. To assure it is not a fluke. I had to prove I could do pullups for First Sgt. Since I was minimum on pullups to be a LCPL. No shame in proving if you can do it. Or have her suction as a whole do an initial pft. We had them all the time besides at Marines were always ready to do it for promotion. RAH!

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Mar 3 at 2019 4:59 PM

2019-03-03T16:59:08-05:00

Going by what you said, she already told on herself by not coming close to the 300 pts from previous APFT. Failing the following one says it all, unless she all of a sudden got injured, you didn't say anything about any injuries

Response by SFC Roger Hudson made Mar 3 at 2019 5:11 PM

2019-03-03T17:11:04-05:00

Falsifying a record to achieve monetary benifit should be dealt with immidiately as criminal. Investigate immidiately. Integrity must be kept in US Army.

Response by MSgt Donald Graves made Mar 4 at 2019 10:01 AM

2019-03-04T10:01:58-05:00

The truth shall set your free.

Response by CW3 Terry Gile made Mar 6 at 2019 3:12 PM

2019-03-06T15:12:19-05:00

Your obligation is to inform the chain of command. As others have pointed out there is no solid evidence against the soldier, so the commander should ensure that a preliminary investigation is conducted to determine if in fact the 300 APFT score was fraudulent. Did something occur that could have had an impact on the soldier's performance? A physical or medical issue, or change in environment due to the PCS -- elevation or ambient temperature changes could have effected her ability to perform.

If it is determined that the score was falsified the commander should make a decision based on the overall performance, efficiency and value of the soldier to the service. (Personally I would recommend revocation of the promotion and letter of reprimand at an absolute minimum --- assuming the soldier is an outstanding asset in other respects. Otherwise "hang her high"!) Additionally if it is determined that the score was falsified the chain of command of the NCO responsible for the falsification of her official APFT record should be informed so that they can also take appropriate action.

Liars are as bad as barracks thieves, for they steal the truth from us.

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Mar 7 at 2019 7:33 PM

2019-03-07T19:33:44-05:00

This act is intentional, when this Soldier knew the score was wrong they had a chance to correct it; but I have seen this before on the good-ole-buddy situation and is common. Once this done it can't be corrected and reflects on the integrity of the Soldier. the issues has to be resolved and hiding it is not going to make the situation any better.

Response by SFC Sfc Darwin Maring, USA Ret made Mar 8 at 2019 4:23 PM

2019-03-08T16:23:57-05:00

Do the right thing. That is your duty and responsibility.

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Mar 10 at 2019 12:11 PM

2019-03-10T12:11:51-04:00

Are you her squad leader? Why did she take a diagnostic PT test...medical condition maybe? If you are her squad leader or training NCO, then you must raise your observation. If not, then why are you the only one concerned? Too many questions to properly answer the situation raised by the CPL. Basically, it is a matter of self assessment of the benefits and risks of raising the issue up the chain. Just make really sure you have the solid facts to support your complaint.

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Mar 10 at 2019 6:38 PM

2019-03-10T18:38:57-04:00

She has already been promoted?

Response by SPC Gary Welch made Mar 11 at 2019 12:24 AM

2019-03-11T00:24:23-04:00

Well the NCO who falsified her pt score needs to be punished her COC needs to be punished for sending a soldier to the board that didn't qualify for the board she needs to be punished for going along with it and who cares if it damages her career if she takes a promotion that she didn't earn or deserves then she needs to have ucmj taken on her

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Mar 25 at 2019 1:50 PM

2019-03-25T13:50:30-04:00

What SHE can do is PASS the next PT test. -- That is the ONLY thing that would have any chance to "not effect her career in a negative way." There is nothing she can do now about how she got into this situation. If she passes the PT test and performs her job well, there is a good chance that the new chain of command will ignore whatever happened at-another-time-in-another-place.

Response by MSG Reid Zohfeld made Apr 4 at 2019 4:53 PM

2019-04-04T16:53:20-04:00

This is a great topic If you know for a fact that the PT test was fixed then you should say something But You better be right
Second how did you come across this information If you where told or did you look at the training records both come with consequence 1 word of mouth which is not facts 2 Looking at someone’s personal information with out permission
I was in a unit in 05 when we took are PT test before being mobilized This was haunting for many The unit had 12 Col 75 LTC and 75 Maj and 30 capt and below NCO SIDE 12 CSM AND 30 E 8 and below
Top heavy rank
With out proof I would say most could pass height and weight or the PT test
So when we took are PT test it was a sight
12 Lines 1 grader 1 counter 1 Col 1 Csm
The same with those who needed to be taped
Just before the orders where received there was a retirement ceremony where that formation was bigger than the ones who passed their PT test

Response by LTC David Harrison made Apr 4 at 2019 5:23 PM

2019-04-04T17:23:10-04:00

Seems the time to address this "without negative impact on her career" has passed.
Anyone, anyone, anyone, everyone, everyone, everyone in the military KNOWS the right thing to do was report it immediately when discovered, and have it corrected. The very day it was discovered.
It appears this soldier was perfectly fine with a 300 score on her record until she was found. Now she's scared because she effectively lied, fraudulently took some that she did not earn or produce.
That soldier does not deserve a promotion. That soldier does not deserve to be an NCO.
I would not want to serve with such a person. She was wrong, the time to admit it was the day she knew it.
She should have negative consequences, this soldier lacks integrity and professionalism. She should be happy to be busted back to Private, then learn honesty, leadership, integrity, honor & selfless service the hard way from the ground up.
Alternatively, if she can't accept responsibility for her own compromised integrity, then she needs to leave military service. We don't need people like her.

Response by CPL Glynnda White made Apr 5 at 2019 11:33 AM

2019-04-05T11:33:17-04:00

That soldier needs to take on a mantle of leadership and report the score....she should have done it the day she received the score. She should retain her rank and get her butt in shape to get that 300 and then apply for that promotion again....integrity in this case is more important than career....that is what GROWN UPS do...

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Apr 5 at 2019 3:00 PM

2019-04-05T15:00:33-04:00

I guess this is my question:

How did she make it through PLDC?

If you know its fake, why do you want to protect the career of said soldier?

Seems to me you don't know that it is fake, and their is any number of reasons why she did not perform up to standard, hell she could be pregnant and her hormones are all out of whack now.

Not your job to wonder what happened at her last command, not your job to ASSUME someone faked her pt score.

Your job is to address this issue that is before you today, and a DIAGNOSTIC pt test is no reason to flag a person who is on the promotion list.

There is more to being a leader than doing 100 push ups. The Army really needs to get that shit through their head. Hell some of the best leaders I ever met scored in the 70th percentile on the PT test. I had a leader once who prided himself on his push up count, used as a "test" when he thought he could prove a point with it, always came out: How many push ups can you do, lets us see. Then he afield the land nav course.

I would rather have a leader that can pass land nav, and not get my ass lost.

Integrity is important too, i get that; But sometimes the rules should be broken, they just don't fit EVERY situation.

Sometimes an NCO should cover for a soldier, even if it means that the rules are technically broken, it happens and A GOOD leader uses that as a leadership tool.

Leadership is not: I can fry this guy, lets do it.

Response by SFC Wayne Garcia made Apr 6 at 2019 12:07 AM

2019-04-06T00:07:30-04:00

Report her to proper authority. That would be her commander. Then it’s out of your hands.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2019 10:16 PM

2019-04-06T22:16:04-04:00

all i have to say INTEGRITY

Response by Sgt Cory Bryant made Apr 7 at 2019 3:28 AM

2019-04-07T03:28:28-04:00

Honestly, the fact that you are ok with some fat body, whose previous "NCO" lied about her PT scores (to cover up the fact that she is actually an unsat piece of shit that can't even pass the PT test) and is ok with knowing her higher ups think she is a better warrior then she ACTUALLY is because when it comes right down to it she just can't hack it.....if you are ok with her being not only an NCO but also SGT....then to be honest you dont belong leading men/women in a big boy military....are you kidding me Cpl?? Fuck her career....she should have thought about that when she sat around getting lazy and fat thinking everything would be handed to her.....if you allow the "handling it to her" to continue, you are the problem.

Response by CDR Augustus Von Laendlerhaus made Apr 7 at 2019 10:13 PM

2019-04-07T22:13:40-04:00

Sounds like another entitlement minority female working the system.

Response by PO3 Rod Arnold made Apr 7 at 2019 10:56 PM

2019-04-07T22:56:38-04:00

Imagine the the damage that will be done later on if that person dosent step up and do the right thing now!

Response by SFC Kory Schaubhut made Apr 8 at 2019 9:34 AM

2019-04-08T09:34:43-04:00

Why does Rallypoint send me these year old issues highlighted in emails as if they're brand new? I wrote a pretty long response before I realized that, in all likelihood, the actual issue is long since resolved for better or worse.

I hope it went well. The long and short of my advice was from your position as a Corporal it's probably most appropriate to discuss the issue privately with your PSG.

Response by Sgt Phil Quintana made Apr 9 at 2019 4:30 AM

2019-04-09T04:30:33-04:00

Cpl. Santos, ask yourself this, "Would I want this NCO as my squad leader/section leader"?
She has broken the #1 rule of leadership, "Lead by example"! What kind of an example has she set for you?
Ask yourself, "If she's willing to do this, what else is she capable of doing"? Is she capable of "fixing the numbers" to pass an IG inspection/audit that could possibly affect soldiers being deployed?
One final question, "Where is your integrity"? Are you willing to allow her lack of integrity have a possible life or death impact on a jr. enlisted soldier?
I'm a Marine ('75-'81) and spent five of those years as an NCO, four of them as a Sgt. I had to make some hard decisions, I put a friend in the brig and was a character witness for one of my Marines accused of rape.
Every decision I ever made was based on my integrity and how to best take care of my Marines.

Response by SFC Cynthia Eyer made Apr 11 at 2019 9:59 AM

2019-04-11T09:59:49-04:00

There may be mitigating circumstances that this NCO is not revealing. As a female who has been approached with attempts to be intimidated by men leaders, of which were very unsuccessful, I understand that perhaps this male NCO who penciled her APFT may have been intimidating her in a sexual discriminate manner. He may have raped her or sexually advanced on her, and as many are, she is afraid to say anything. Get the chaplain or a counselor to speak with her and support her. If this is not the case, then find out the real reason why she is so afraid. It's not always as it seems and as cut and dry as some here have made it out to be.

Response by SFC Aubrey Campbell made Apr 11 at 2019 7:26 PM

2019-04-11T19:26:00-04:00

There is

There is one thing to do here...bite the bullet and move on. Life is full of dramatic moments. I was no saint in the Army, but integrity means something. No one is going to go on record and tell you to do the “ wrong thing” on this forum.

Th

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2019 9:14 AM

2019-04-13T09:14:59-04:00

INTEGRITY MATTERS, SHE WILL BE A SHITTY LEADER IF SHE DOES NOT COME FORTH WITH THE TRUTH. PERIOD!!!!

Response by 1SG Billye Jackson made Apr 13 at 2019 1:34 PM

2019-04-13T13:34:22-04:00

I had about the same, only it was a SSG and His SP4 Driver and at was Weapons Qal. I found out that the two of them never got out of the Deuce and a Half, Tell you how I handled it., the SSg. became a SGT and the SP4 became a PFC. Oh and the SSG was on the SFC List at the Time. We were going to make it a Company Grade, but when it went forward the Bn Cdr tore it up and Made it a Field Grade. This is want should Happen to her.

Response by SSgt Jeff Moore made Apr 15 at 2019 6:28 PM

2019-04-15T18:28:39-04:00

I guess my question to you is, would you want to be in a foxhole with her, get wounded and have to rely on her to drag you out and save your life? PT scores present abilities to do what is necessary in combat, period. There is no second chance in combat, nobody to rewrite the rules during engagement. 1. she did not merit her score. 2. Her score was falsely elevated. 3. How do you know this? Your knowledge, no matter its age, should still become known by the upper echelons. If you say nothing, I wish you the best in that foxhole.

Response by COL Bart Butler made Apr 21 at 2019 5:04 PM

2019-04-21T17:04:38-04:00

If the soldier failed a diagnostic APFT she has 30 days to whip herself into shape and then take and pass a for record APFT. Diagnostic APFTs are just that. A tool with which to check a soldiers fitness level at any given time. As for the pencil 300 APFT on her promotion record, she should delay promotion, inform her 1SG of the false score, and ask for her promotion points to be recalculated after the for Record APFT. The actions of a dishonest third party should not be used against the soldier. The soldier always gets the benefit of the doubt. This is the only way I know of her to ensure that her integrity remains intact and that she maintains her credibility in the unit.

Response by SGT Jason Yago made Apr 26 at 2019 2:50 PM

2019-04-26T14:50:06-04:00

It’s about integrity clearly she has none and I’m wondering about you as well. If you knew about this and did nothing your complicit in that fraud

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2019 3:21 PM

2019-05-06T15:21:36-04:00

1. If you are not involved directly, do not confront directly, you would be basing your discussion on "hearsay". You need to address the issue with your chain.
2. If what you say is true, then the NCO who documented the PT Score has failed their integrity check.
3. The SPC who is up for promotion knew the score was inaccurate and failed to say something, will face their just desserts for not soldiering up to the failure. It will effect her in a negative way. There will be corrective action, but there will be plenty of time to recover and get promoted again.
The grading NCO knows better and should face the consequences of his/her actions.
The best thing to do is get close to a 300 next record PT...then questions won't be raised.

Response by SFC Robert Salmon made May 7 at 2019 7:22 PM

2019-05-07T19:22:43-04:00

This reminds me of a similar situation. Not exactly the same - but in principle very similar. My platoon was taking a PT test. During formation, I called for sick call, AWOL and good balls to fall out to the rear and this E-5 fell out to go to sick call. Before I could ask him, I heard one of the squad members ask him what was wrong, and I flat out heard him reply, that he was going on sick call to avoid taking the PT test which he felt he would fail. I walked up and asked him to confirm what I heard and he admitted that was his reason for sick call. At 0900 formation, I informed the 1SG I was sending this E-5 to the orderly room for him to do whatever he wanted to do with him, but he would not be in my platoon, leading soldiers. I guess fortunately for me, the 1SG not so much supported but didn't push back on my decision. He worked in the orderly room for about a year when he came back and asked if he could come return, which I allowed but on a counseled probation. FYI during the time, he was at the orderly room I set up a remedial PT program and did remedial PT with him after COB, every day. He eventually passed his PT test. But that wasn't the issue at heart, just like the issue with this individual. Yes, the failed PT test needs to be addressed but more importantly, the lack of character and integrity would be all over my radar. You cannot be an effective leader while lacking those two traits. You can't even be a dependable human without those two traits in my opinion. She needs to own up to the falsified score and the fact she failed her PT test. She does not deserve the stripes on her collar. I would find out what the deal was with this other NCO, and I would light his ass up as well. I don't want to let my imagination run on what it was - but playing favorites as a leader is one of the MOST DETRIMENTAL things you can do to your other soldiers. Even the perception of favoritism is a morale killer and that can affect operations. This needs to be nipped in the bud. Your interest should lie in preserving the quality of the NCO Corp and the ranks of the Army. It should lie to the soldiers she could potentially lead with obvious character and leadership flaws. She made this bed, she needs to sleep in it, as does the NCO who falsified her PT score.

Response by COL Angel Perez made May 8 at 2019 11:29 AM

2019-05-08T11:29:42-04:00

The fact that the individual submitted a fraudulent PT score card in order to get promoted is alarming. A few points before rendering my judgement. The military is not the civilian world when it comes to simple matters of fitness and how we administer and document such test. If the individual (regardless of gender) submits a PT scorecard for record knowingly not reflecting the actual scores demonstrates intent to deceive. Second, an individual can not administer the record PT to themselves. There must be unit published dates for record PT test approved by the unit Commander. The unit Commander has personnel appointed to administer such tests. Any other tests submitted when not adhering to such policy and published dates must be in compliance to Dept. of Army regulation/publications. Failure to comply with such regulations leaves the individual and unit vulnerable to noncompliance. I would confront the individual and other individuals who administered the test to discuss the outcome. Once I counseled those involved, I would take them all out and conduct a practice PT test and provide further guidance in terms of remedial training and punitive actions. You mentioned that you did not want to destroy their careers, but you didn't. They did! This episode can be one of a bunch of small episodes that can destroy the integrity of any unit. Lead by example!

Response by SSG Calvin Grant made May 10 at 2019 3:53 PM

2019-05-10T15:53:41-04:00

I'd say E4's and below are never wrong. They are only as wrong as we allow them to be, because a soldier was evaluated during an APFT and scored 300 and failed the APFT all together during a diagnostic isn't an indicator of wrong doing. However that SPC took the APFT and was evaluated by a "NON-Commissioned Officer" who in my opinion is the one with no integrity and is subject to Article 90, 91 and 92 of the UCMJ. Let's just say her APFT was recorded under false pretenses for whatever reason. The NCO Corp failed that soldier. Can you prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that she didn't obtain a 300 on her last APFT or is it speculated because she failed to achieve a 300 or even pass the APFT for that matter? It appears that the soldier if in fact was given an erroneous PT score she is learning a valuable lesson and she should be removed from the promotion list. If the NCO that graded her erroneously recorded the information on her PT test, with or without her knowledge. there is the real problem. Soldier's get away with what the NCO Corp allows them to get away with.

Response by HN Richard Duncan made May 12 at 2019 1:00 AM

2019-05-12T01:00:32-04:00

Back in 1990, I was stationed on the USS Austin LPD 4. Which was turned into razor blades in 2006. We had many fat chiefs then. My LPO (lead petty officer) which ran the PT test. Which consisted of the medical and dental department. We would run the flight deck. And every pass through the start finish line. We were given popsicle sticks. And the chiefs would get two just too pass the PT test.

Response by SFC Marshal Gleason made May 12 at 2019 7:57 AM

2019-05-12T07:57:45-04:00

Don’t get your panties into a wad. Everything has a way of working out to the best result. She got caught down the road! Everything will always come to light, karma is a bitch. She got caught because the system works. Officers have been cheating for years! Not all officers and not every branch, but them assholes have been and will continue to until they get caught.

Chill out. I needed shoulder surgery but i was also picked up for ANCO. I made sure I could pass the PT Test and went on to graduate ANCO. But, my SGL had me down on the Commandant’s List but I hadn’t met the standards for the List because of my shoulder. I immediately made the correction on my exit/final counseling. My mentor, CSM (ret) Thomas Bookman had a motto when we were SSG and SGTs together in Hawaii, and i live by those everyday and have taught them to my four boys.It goes like this, If you lie, you steal you cheat! If you’re willing to do one, you can do all three. Everyone has integrity until you make me question yours

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2019 7:43 PM

2019-05-12T19:43:34-04:00

This is what happens when you have toxic and failed leadership. A case SM afraid to go through his COC becuase of past bad experiences. If APFT are done in line with AR, this kind of incidence would never occur. Any of SM, PSG, Training NCO, 1SG and CO should have verified and tracked this mistake before, leaving the PT field. SM should have been flagged for a 10 days retest and given remedial PT to get back to shape. And if this is a mistake by S1, disciplinary action should not be taking on the SM as long as he/she has not knowingly taken credit for this mistake. SM should turn down the promotion, do another PT test. And if SM is injured get a profile. This is a simple case and a true test of the SM army value-integrity, SM should report immediately to his PSG before it is too late.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2019 4:38 PM

2019-05-13T16:38:35-04:00

There is nothing to do but face the music. She was ready to take the all of the benefits of lying and now she must take all of the other "benefits" of lying. Sounds like she hoped to get away with being dishonest but now she is caught and now she is "sorry". This is an example of why subordinates and leaders don't trust each other. I wouldn't let her lead anyone else because anytime she has to give corrective actions she will be a hypocrite.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2019 4:46 PM

2019-05-13T16:46:21-04:00

I cant believe this is even a question that needs to be asked...
Unless this soldier had a legitimate reason for failing the PT test, such as an injury, she should be adversely disciplined. This soldier was willing to accept the benefits of lying but now that she is caught, she doesn’t want to be held accountable? Her career should suffer. This type of behavior should be weeded out removed from the military. How can this soldier be a leader when any corrective action she hands out will be from a position of fraud? This type of behavior results in distrust between leaders and subordinates and breeds contempt. Junior soldiers are not dumb and most people can spot a fraudster. Remember that the NCO underground reaches everywhere.

Response by SSG John Hazlett made May 15 at 2019 1:35 AM

2019-05-15T01:35:09-04:00

There's always corrective training. Lots of extra duty.

Response by SSG Calvin Grant made May 15 at 2019 11:57 AM

2019-05-15T11:57:14-04:00

Let he who without sin cast the first stone.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made May 16 at 2019 3:10 AM

2019-05-16T03:10:05-04:00

Sp4…This is an easy on celebrate with a blanket party, with a wooden tent peg up his six.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Jun 5 at 2019 9:15 AM

2019-06-05T09:15:24-04:00

as a corporal you just administered a PT test who to someone who was just promoted to sergeant. Since the soldier has not been pinned yet, you need to counsel the soldier and schedule a record PT test in 30 days. Take the counseling statement and the score card to your platoon sergeant. Your platoon sergeant and chain of command need to made aware of this so they can take action now or latter if the soldier fails the record test. Do not compromise you integrity for someone who cannot pass a PT test.

Response by PO2 Peter Soliz made Jun 6 at 2019 9:20 PM

2019-06-06T21:20:09-04:00

You have to say something. being incapable of doing her job can kill people in the field. To hell with her career if she's dishonest, you have more important things to worry about, like your fellow soldiers.

Response by LCpl Laurence Puco made Jun 7 at 2019 7:57 AM

2019-06-07T07:57:54-04:00

That is one hell of a conundrum...…………..

Response by SGT Jim Yantis made Jun 7 at 2019 10:35 AM

2019-06-07T10:35:44-04:00

This is obviously a question of integrity and upholding the standards we expect throughout the military; but looking at one small detail:
Changing an APFT score for a soldier who can't even pass it to a 300, isn't "pencil-whipping it", it's setting them up for failure. "Pigs get fat, but hogs get slaughtered"!

Response by SGT Christy Waterhouse made Jun 7 at 2019 5:41 PM

2019-06-07T17:41:30-04:00

When I entered the military, jobs that had only been available to men were now open to women enlisting. I see many individuals in this scenario that should be counselled. First the NCO in charge of administering this test. The soldier involved knew exactly what she needed to do to pass the test. I made SGT in three years after entering the Military. Before even going before the board I knew exactly what was expected of me. The people that were present at the time the test was administered. This is a sad day when pride is not taken into consideration of the accomplishment. As a female Veteran I am saddened to hear that a female soldier would go along with this deception to benefit her career. It only shows her lack of strength and integrity. If this is the kind of soldier/person she is it won't take long before her deception is blatantly revealed.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2019 7:54 AM

2019-06-08T07:54:27-04:00

The corruption of the NCO and she aside, I don't understand the issue here. She failed at the fitness standard. Did this nullify her advancement? If so, she's the one that screwed herself.
An issue would arise if she was advanced despite failing the fitness standard.

Response by LTC George Morgan made Jun 8 at 2019 6:19 PM

2019-06-08T18:19:37-04:00

You hold the responsibility of (a) Counselling her and because you are male, counsel with another female either present of within hearing distance. Counsel not tear down. (B) have her repeat the test. You might want to consider doing the test with her. I.e. Lead from the front and respect her effort. I can assure you; she will respect you and the beneficial effect on her future will be assured. Don't mention it to anyone, I can assure you the info will get to those who need to know. Its what you do: Not what you are seen to do. Good luck, you're doing the right thing!

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Jun 8 at 2019 9:14 PM

2019-06-08T21:14:54-04:00

The NCO that recorded and signed/ dated the PT card is the person responsible. The Soldier in question probably was aware that this may be bogus.
To lighten her load so to speak, let her new chain of command know that the previous NCO is the one who cooked the books. Perhaps a letter of reprimand would be in order for the young Soldier. The NCO that signed the PT card should be severely reprimanded....

Response by COL Thom Brooks made Jun 9 at 2019 8:45 AM

2019-06-09T08:45:30-04:00

Wow, that has lack of integrity written all over it. Unless the Soldier had been injured, there is no way she could get a 300 on her APFT and then fail a follow-up diagnostic. Direct counseling to figure out how the original score got there (for example, was it actually valid, or did the Soldier think she made a different score, and a different one was transcribed on the record). I then concur with others here that the APFT should be repeated for record, and if she fails it, she will need to be flagged and counseled. I sincerely hope that the Soldier is not the one with the lack of integrity. I don't think any of us wants that type of Soldier in the US Army, let alone in a leadership position.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2019 6:20 AM

2019-06-10T06:20:18-04:00

CPL,
The bottom line is this; if you can't prove that the score is fake then act under the presumption that it is real. Now, that Soldier needs to be flagged if she fails a Record APFT. I've been in the Army 18 years and the only diags I've ever taken we're at the beginning of an NCOES or similar military school. So I'm unsure as to why she was given a diag. Nonetheless, a record with eventually be given and if she fails then she will be flagged and consequences will occur. But as far as her being promoted in the near future, sounds like it will happen regardless of your efforts or not, Corporal. The very most that could happen would be a Commander's Inquiry on her 300 score if she fails another APFT again. But remember, people get injured and it happens all of the time. I can personally attest to this. While competing for NCO of th quarter I scored a 296 on my first APFT and failed the following APFT due to an injured during the run. This happens. So please don't assume the worst of her. I hope this helps.

Response by SGT Scott Coughlin made Jun 10 at 2019 3:40 PM

2019-06-10T15:40:54-04:00

This has happened more timed than i csn count...especially people coming from Korea...i know an E5 Sgt that could varely pass the APFT while in Korea, but magically just a couple if months later scored a 300...she retired an E7...i promise you this is more common than people are willing to let on...ive seen the same issues with weight

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2019 3:46 PM

2019-06-10T15:46:22-04:00

Seems like she should not be in the military.

Response by SFC Joseph McCausland made Jun 12 at 2019 2:00 AM

2019-06-12T02:00:51-04:00

What puzzles me about this is why did they give her a 300 pt score when they knew she couldn't even pass a diagnostic pt test. I believe a perfect pt score translates to 180 promotion packet points, so did she need that many points to make her MOS promotion cutoff score? She will hold her promotion rank because it was a dislogistic pt test but will be required to participate in a "remedial" (not sure if correct term) pt program and then be required to re-take pt test, if she fails to pass the second one, it could be grounds for separation from the service.
Color me cynical but I believe there is more to this than is on the surface. Why would an NCO risk their career by falsifying a document for a subordinate?
If I were her new station SrNCO I would ask her one question... how does someone get a perfect score of 300 one time and the next time can't even manage a 180?

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Jun 22 at 2019 8:58 AM

2019-06-22T08:58:36-04:00

OH does this has integrity failures written all over it! If this Soldier scored 300 before, and failed now, her 705 card was pencil whipped no doubt. You don't go from the penthouse to the outhouse that quick. I might expect a drop from 300 to 270 or even 250 if it was a bad day, but to fail (that is, less than 180?) - doesn't happen. Now, obviously, the scoring NCO demonstrated a mondo integrity . Your Soldier is, in my opinion, equally guilty of having tacitly accepted the benefit of a 300 APFT which put her at the upper end of the cutting score. NOW - what to do - (1) YOU tell your Soldier your suspicions and relay same to your Chain (2) ask the Soldier what she thinks she should do. The answer should be something like "withdraw from promotion consideration". If you hear that - fine. If not, you're duty bound to report it up the line along with your recommendation. Whatever you do - DO NOT look the other way. These kinds of ACV violations can spin wildly out of control, putting you in the middle for not having stopped the fire before it spread.

Response by SGM Robert King made Jun 23 at 2019 8:00 PM

2019-06-23T20:00:29-04:00

A soldier that falsified a document is done in my eyes. What else are they cheating on. No gray area here.

Response by LCpl Russell Wallace made Jul 2 at 2019 6:24 PM

2019-07-02T18:24:10-04:00

It sounds like she’s using her feminine qualities to keep her career moving. My advice would be to get in on the action.

Response by CPO James Mauro made Jul 4 at 2019 10:13 PM

2019-07-04T22:13:16-04:00

You need to do the right thing, it is not on you, all those other NCO’s should have done the right thing in the first place, you need to speak up and up hold the core values of the US Army. Their lack of judgement and your becoming aware places your career in jeopardy. Just my 2 cents worth

Response by SSgt Michael Bowen made Jul 5 at 2019 1:55 AM

2019-07-05T01:55:14-04:00

There are two issues to be addressed . The person giving the score and the one getting it . Take them to the side and tell them up front . Tell them both Ethical conduct is a very important Character trait . Fix it quietly but fix it and walk away . Then trust them to do it but verify . And if they fail to . Then it becomes your ethical dilemma . Report it or not . But remember you gave them a chance to do the right thing . And they didn't . But if they do correct it They did the right thing and that's a leaning experience worth Giving them the benefit of a doubt for a momentary laps of judgement . And no more needs to be said or done . Nor should it be held against them . in any future dealings

Response by SFC Jose A Hernandez made Jul 5 at 2019 3:40 AM

2019-07-05T03:40:57-04:00

In my book whether this soldier knew it or not, THERE IS NO EXCUSE; sounds like the rich parents who paid someone to get their kids into elite colleges and claim their kids were unaware of the fraud committed by their parents, that's total B.S. they must of have know, they knew they weren't that bright or participated on any of the sports mentioned to get in. This soldier and who ever falsified the document should be reprimanded and given an article 15 for this individual is unbecoming and NCO.
NCO Creed
No one is more professional than I. I am a noncommissioned officer, a leader of Soldiers. As a noncommissioned officer, I realize that I am a member of a time honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the Army". I am proud of the Corps of noncommissioned officers and will at all times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the military service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself. I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety.

Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind—accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers. I will strive to remain technically and tactically proficient. I am aware of my role as a noncommissioned officer. I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership. I know my Soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate consistently with my Soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.

Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence as well as that of my Soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers, and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by taking appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget that we are professionals, noncommissioned officers, leaders!

Response by 1SG Jorge Guzman made Jul 6 at 2019 11:15 AM

2019-07-06T11:15:28-04:00

AR 635-200, Chapter 13.
No integrity, get'm out.

Response by Capt Dennis Tague made Jul 6 at 2019 5:40 PM

2019-07-06T17:40:53-04:00

Don't worry about her career. She has zero integrity and shouldn't be promoted in the first place.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jul 6 at 2019 5:55 PM

2019-07-06T17:55:26-04:00

I think she owns this for allowing the 300 to stand. It's basically accessory after the fact.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2019 6:52 PM

2019-07-06T18:52:33-04:00

She should have spoken up as soon as she found out she got a false PT score.

Response by SGT Stephen Jaffe made Jul 7 at 2019 1:22 PM

2019-07-07T13:22:07-04:00

I would think it would be dangerous to have an NCO who cannot be in as good physical condition as the troops he or she might command. If the soldier in question is really competent in other areas, I would offer to work with them, after hours, in order to get them in condition. In short, the soldier has to able to pass the test. The initiative has to be his or hers.

Response by SGT Dan Davis made Jul 8 at 2019 3:19 PM

2019-07-08T15:19:38-04:00

Unless you actually witnessed the previous NCO giving a false score, you have nothing to say! If you are scoring her now, then you should offer to work with her to bring up her PT score. End of story.

Response by MSG Bennie McGrew made Jul 10 at 2019 8:19 AM

2019-07-10T08:19:41-04:00

Non Commissioned Officer with integrity issues is useless. Gave up authority to lead.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2019 5:28 PM

2019-07-10T17:28:19-04:00

If this person knows that she was given a false PT score and accepted it, it shows a major lack of integrity. I would not want for her, or anyone else to be in a leadership position. Both this soldier and the "rater" both need to be punished under the UCMJ, whether it be an Article 15 or a letter of reprimand or whatever. If you know that this situation, your lack of integrity needs to be addressed as well.
I was victimized by receiving a lower score than should have been received to prevent me from being deployed on a MEDRET due to being outspoken about the handling of sexual abuse of lower enlisted in my unit that the command knew about and covered up.
If you don't have the integrity to report that you KNOW is wrong in a minor situation, you will definitely not do so when it comes to a major situation.
I have had commanders and others that I had the privilege to serve with that I would die for to this day, with no questions asked. There are others that I would would have a difficult time following to the latrine, let alone in combat.

Response by SGT Reinaldo Rios made Jul 10 at 2019 7:05 PM

2019-07-10T19:05:22-04:00

Remember NCO teach with the example if She or He get into a misión and something went wrong and life or jail time is in the table would you or other can Trust that soldier ... it is not matter of save your skin is matter of honesty and integrity those thing we as leaders Cannot allow to lose or forget.Talk to your supervisor and see what alternatives the chain of command find to fix that situation .drive on corporal...att sgt r rios retired.

Response by LCpl Michael Harrell made Jul 11 at 2019 8:36 PM

2019-07-11T20:36:25-04:00

I’ve spent most of my life around and in the military, my father was a SgtMj in the army and many uncles cousins and brothers all have served throughout the branches. It all boils down to honor and integrity period! If she was falsely score a 300 and she knows weather she did or not, the scoring novo is Derelict in his duty as an NCO, and having obtained the rank of NCO, she is derelict for not having challenged that score. If you can’t admit a flaw in a minor level how can you be trusted on an issue at a greater level?!
The answer is you can’t. You jeopardize your honor and integrity as well as your truthfulness. Instead of worrying about her career she should get out in front of it by being honest, take the hit and do better in the future. The scoring NCO should stand before the man and take his or her lumps as well. Basically put, do what you know is the right thing even when no one is watching and you won’t have your ass in a crack. It is the backbone of morals ethics and scruples!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2019 2:57 PM

2019-07-12T14:57:04-04:00

Why did she not fix this if she knew it was wrong? If she had the chance to fix this and she knew it was false that shows a sincere lack of integrity on her part. She should suffer the consequences of her actions. Also, the NCO that falsified the results must suffer consequences for his actions too.

Response by SSG Rafael Rodriguez made Jul 12 at 2019 3:54 PM

2019-07-12T15:54:24-04:00

This should not happen from the get go!!! You knew this was not the right thing to do, it should have been stopped at the time back then. Now you're a part of setting this Soldier for failure!!!! The Unit training NCO also should have known that this Female Soldier did not previously had a 300 PT score. it has to be corrected, The Female Soldier has to come up straight along with you for knowing and not correcting the deficiency back then. Take appropriate remedial training and set up that Soldier for success!!! The new pt test coming up next year is not forgiving at all, get acquainted with it; its called the new army PT test, age and gender neutral. see; https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/07/09/a-new-army-pt-test-is-on-its-way-this-is-not-a-drill/.

A new Army PT test is on its way. This is not a drill.

The Army is preparing to roll out a new, six-event PT test that will be completely gender and age neutral.

Response by PO3 Michael MacKay made Jul 12 at 2019 8:57 PM

2019-07-12T20:57:16-04:00

She needs to get off her ass get into shape fast and pass her PT test. That or just take the damage and move on.

Response by SFC Aubrey Campbell made Jul 13 at 2019 10:54 AM

2019-07-13T10:54:52-04:00

Many of us have seen this movie and some of us have starred in it. Keep it real! She got caught and will ultimately face the consequences of her action. We have all seen career ending events during our service. However, I have also have seen soldiers go down the toilet and rise from the ashes. Let's not make this thread seem like the end of the world for these soldiers involved. Tomorrow will come, and the monster we see on that day will be our only concern.

SFC A. Campbell (Retired)

Response by Sgt Peter Schlesiona made Jul 13 at 2019 4:30 PM

2019-07-13T16:30:10-04:00

If you’re sure the previous test results were falsified - and the failure confirmed by the new test, why would you even ask this question? YOU have an obligation as an NCO to call attention to falsification of the official record. As far as your position is concerned, you want to minimize embarrassment and career damage. Why are you putting that on yourself? The people involved know what they did and know it was wrong. They brought consequences on themselves so you need not concern yourself with anything other than reporting the situation to
Since you apparently are sure, then the person in question must also know and is complicit in the falsification. The “feelings” of those involved are absolutely irrelevant. Again, Corporal, you’re an NCO. Do the right thing or surrender your stripes.

Response by Cpl Tyler Therrien made Jul 14 at 2019 12:18 PM

2019-07-14T12:18:51-04:00

I agree with The CW2. this person now that SHE KNOWS the PT score is pencil whipped need to have a little integrity and correct the issue

Response by MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2019 9:25 PM

2019-07-14T21:25:06-04:00

note till given a for record PT test there is no flagging actions that should be taken, but I would look to see if there is a major change in the trend for prior PT tests given. 300 to below low passing is a sign of either a greater issues or a failure of the prior leadership to be honest with the solider and yourself.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2019 4:33 PM

2019-07-21T16:33:01-04:00

I had a similar incident, while being the unit APFT nco, an 06 asked me to sign off a pt score, that I knew to be impossible so this sm could attend bnoc and get promoted, I refused explaining why, so the 06 signed it, then complained to the CO, long story short the nco failed Pt at bnoc and I got relieved and nothing happened to the sm or 06

Response by SPC Brad Pratt made Jul 21 at 2019 5:48 PM

2019-07-21T17:48:00-04:00

It’s a situation that has gone on for decades. I’ve seen pencil pushing SFC that had three chins that somehow passed the tape test every time.
Let’s not forget the pen hole expert marksman. At the paper (not pop up targets) weapons range.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Jul 21 at 2019 6:20 PM

2019-07-21T18:20:09-04:00

To be blunt, who is she screwing? That will answer a lot of questions.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2019 6:20 PM

2019-07-21T18:20:11-04:00

I mean... I personally went form a 297 to a fail in less than 6 months. It is very possible.

Response by SGT Luis San Roman Jr made Jul 21 at 2019 6:26 PM

2019-07-21T18:26:58-04:00

Things must've greatly changed since I retired. When a diagnostic APFT was given, unless you stated you wanted it that you wanted it to be a RECORD APFT before you started then regardless of what you scored, it remained just that...a diagnostic and could NOT be used for points. So according to your initial statement her S1 file should've caught that when they audited her file for points and she never shouldve been promoted when the cutoff scores came out.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2019 9:09 PM

2019-07-22T21:09:46-04:00

A diagnostic after PCS'ing to a new unit? Sounds like this Soldier didn't do PT while on leave.

Response by SN Jay Perry made Jul 27 at 2019 6:30 AM

2019-07-27T06:30:05-04:00

Not having to deal with PT tests (small ships usually do the PT test at the same time), I would give the person a fixed time to pass the test with AT LEAST that score she 'earned' before. I would counsel that service member that immediately after failing that test the second time I would walk them up the chain of command and charge them with PERJURY (lying on am official document(s)).

Response by SGT Thomas Price made Jul 28 at 2019 4:51 AM

2019-07-28T04:51:33-04:00

I guess the real question is, how can you spend enough time in the military to gain NCO rank and still fail a PT test? I never understood how people could fail those things. Its not an Olympic tryout.

Response by SFC Scott Higgins made Aug 5 at 2019 8:14 AM

2019-08-05T08:14:30-04:00

CPL Santos, the issue here is integrity. She has lost hers. Do not lose yours.
She would have to have known about the bogus score - she could have said something to the company first sergeant after the test, when she turned in her packet for promotion, at the annual review of her packet. There is nothing here to suggest her actions were self-serving and dishonest. Worse, her actions caused a more deserving soldier to miss out on a promotion they deserved. Do not follow her, keep your integrity and speak up.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2019 11:52 AM

2019-08-07T11:52:48-04:00

Integrity in the APFT is as important as integrity in everything we as Army soldiers do as we live and uphold the seven Army values. As a chaplain, I have always felt it extremely important to be fit and score high on the APFT, because any lack of physical readiness endangers far more than myself (as a non-combatant), and as an officer in his early 50's, I also feel a great responsibility to exemplify physical readiness. I haven't scored below 270 in a long time--because I am committed to working hard at remaining fit. In fact, I am very much looking forward to the ACFT because it eliminates the age and gender allowances. "I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself." The thought that there is any soldier serving who had to falsify records (or was complicit in the act) to pass or score high on the APFT, especially to be promoted in the NCO Corps, goes against everything we stand for.

Response by SPC Nancy Greene made Aug 7 at 2019 11:46 PM

2019-08-07T23:46:55-04:00

Do any of these soldiers realize “Falsification of a Government Document” is a Federal Offense punishable via UCMJ and possible Federal indictments. As a veteran who was responsible for publishing Promotion Orders for Enlisted Personnel; there is documentation regarding the PT score. I strongly suggest the soldier in question come clean now before this turns into an avalanche. I suggest retaking the PT test and recalculate the promotion points using the new score. If the REAL score doesn’t meet the ‘cut-off scores, then no promotion. I would also recommend an Article 15 for ‘conduct unbecoming’. This seems to me to be the best way to resolve the issue with the least amount of damage to ANYONE’S career. This falsification WILL be discovered if this soldier plans to stay in the Army. Better to come clean now as an E-4, than being court marshaled at a higher rank.

Response by SGT Nickolas Ortiz made Aug 9 at 2019 7:17 PM

2019-08-09T19:17:40-04:00

During my time in the Army, for a Corporal to question a higher ranked NCO was a bit of an issue. From your information, you've no idea if her PT test was modified for her promotion or not, maybe it was. But why are YOU questioning it? Are you upset that someone other than you is being promoted? Why aren't you, as an E4, being promoted to E5? If you are in her chain of concern, why would an E4P be under you? Having a PT test modified for advancement is a pretty serious charge. Defiantly violates the regs and falls under UCMJ. Your concern for her "military career" is um... admirable... but to be honest, if you were really concerned about her, you wouldn't be posting her business on here.

Response by PO2 Ed Taylor made Aug 11 at 2019 8:05 AM

2019-08-11T08:05:21-04:00

iF THE PT SCORE WAS A FRAUD THEN THERE ARE TWO INDIVIDUALS THAT COMMITTED THIS FRAUD. IF THE PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN NOTE WORTHY AND GOOD A POSSIBLE DO OVER TO THE PT AND DEMOTION. FRAUD IS NOT TOLERATED IN THE MILITARY, IF YOU WOULD LIE ABOUT ONE THING WHAT ELSE ARE YOU CAPABLE OF BEING DECEPTIVE ABOUT AND HOW FAR ARE YOU WILLING TO GO WITH THIS DECEPTION. TRUTH HONOR COURAGE DEDICATION. THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE WITHIN A SOLDIER NO MATTER WHAT BRANCH THEY SERVE. THE CHAIN OF COMMAND NEEDS TO BE INVOLVED FOR THIS REASON IT IS THE DUTY OF ALL IN THE CHAIN TO REPORT INCIDENTS. AND ANY ALONG THAT CHAIN CAN SAY YEA OR NAY.
I AM 72 NOW AND THIS IS STILL MY MILITARY ALSO. REMEMBER WE WERE OR STILL ARE ( GI"S) GENERAL ISSUE RUES AND TRUST ARE WHAT MAKE A UNIT GREAT, AND IT ALL STARTS WITH AN INDIVIDUAL.
ET PO2, MR3 CMBT ENG, SGT, PATHFINDER
JUST MY OPINION

Response by SSG Lloyd Price made Aug 11 at 2019 9:46 AM

2019-08-11T09:46:46-04:00

This is very important, you either have proof or an admission, or you only have a suspicion. The Soldier's current performance is of issue hear, don't fall into a trap. A leader's life is hard enough just dealing with the immediate and the future, don't make the mistake of assuming that this soldier and another NCO are both complicit in a fabrication when there are easily other explanations. Could your Soldier be dealing with issues and she just let herself go? How old was the previous PT test, how conducive has her environment been to support quality PT. It's much easier to loose than to gain. But most importantly, think of the damage to the soldier if your suspicion is wrong. You have proof or you don't, make a decision and deal with what's in front of you, You won't be wrong.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2019 6:30 PM

2019-08-12T18:30:45-04:00

She just needs to buckle down, get back in the groove and pass the test and accept the promotion. She'll go nowhere until she passed. That NCO did her no favor by falseling the report

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2019 11:52 PM

2019-08-13T23:52:13-04:00

I was told by a commander once to not come to the table without some sort of solution to the problem. First of all, an NCO should be forthcoming. If you let a problem be, it only gets bigger. She should at least say what happened, and be willing to take another PT test on the spot. And seriously, don't make a mountain out of a diagnostic, you can take several of those in any given year. So tell her to be honest, and be willing to take another. If she loses rank, she still has integrity. Integrity and honesty will guide her right back to being an NCO.

Response by LtCol Paul Bowen made Aug 15 at 2019 12:37 PM

2019-08-15T12:37:37-04:00

The violation of the UCMJ is “False Official Statement” and Art. 134 “Conduct contrary to the Good Order & Discipline of the Armed Forces”.

This unqualified service member is preventing another qualified member from promotions and assignments of greater responsibility and leadership.

Discharge the miscreant.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2019 12:36 AM

2019-08-17T00:36:59-04:00

If there was suspicion before she pcs’s, it should have been dealt with then. Now that she has moved on, she can either try to hide behind the lie(which will eventually come to light) or she can fess up now and deal with the consequences. I honestly have no respect for Soldiers who will do thing in their own best interest and are not what we need leading troops, either in garrison or deployments.
If her immediate supervisors knew their Soldier, they would have notice the discrepancy after the 300 and addressed it with the Soldier along with the chain of command. I feel this goes a little deeper than one Soldier.

Response by SSG Lloyd Price made Aug 19 at 2019 11:47 AM

2019-08-19T11:47:03-04:00

The OP is not clear on how it's "known" that the soldier's previous PT test was falsified. As I said earlier, it's either known, or it's suspected and this young leader, a CPL, (over a newly promoted Sergeant?, not sure how that works) Should deal with what is in front of himself, and not on suspicions. This soldier failed an APFT, deal with that. If the soldier admitted to the falsified PT Test, deal with that.
If the OP is making an assumption of wrong-doing then he is making a terrible mistake. There are many reasons a soldier can have a bad PT Test. All of you senior leaders should have recognized this problem yet few have. I commend those who are thinking right, and although I do not challenge the ethics of you others, I will throw down my BS card on your ill-considered rush to urge an inquisition without specific proof of wrong-doing. Which one of you are going to ask "How specifically, do you know the PT Test was falsified?"

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Aug 26 at 2019 1:08 PM

2019-08-26T13:08:41-04:00

Regardless of the reason, that previous PT Test was pencil-whipped. If she knew about this, she, and that NCO who fudged the score are FUCKED!!!! The only way I see this NOT being pursued, and since you said this was a diagnostic, is she takes another PT test and passes it. If she fails THAT ONE, BOTH OF THEM ARE FUCKED!!!

Response by CW3 Dan Mackey made Sep 8 at 2019 1:31 PM

2019-09-08T13:31:12-04:00

Remedial PT until they can both achieve the score posted! Scored by the CSM.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Sep 16 at 2019 3:50 PM

2019-09-16T15:50:24-04:00

There is an old saying that fits what I have perfectly; Honestly is the best policy,

Response by Cpl Ray Frigerio made Oct 4 at 2019 11:59 AM

2019-10-04T11:59:27-04:00

You'll have to appeal to her to do the right thing and have it reassessed. We're not talking about a few points here ; the score is too high ( perfect ) vs actual failing . THAT is no minor discrepancy and it matters especially in the field . Your English is excellent btw , you must be a smart, hard working soldier , we need more bilingual folks .