What is the regulation and/or proper method to hold a formation with officers and enlisted standing in the ranks?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Jan 2024 09:57:43 -0500

This is an oddball and would probably only happen in the Army Reserve...

Many of the units I've been in are unique in that they have many officers and NCOs and few E1-4 so vastly different from the typical Army structure. These are often headed by an O5-6, an O4-5 XO, and then an E7-8 as the senior NCO. If there is an accountability formation, it is handled by the senior NCO but often has officers standing in the ranks. This seems to be a very incorrect way of doing business and goes against the rank structure. My specific thinking is that an NCO, no matter the rank or experience, should not be calling a group of officers to attention even if that NCO is part of the leadership team. There are many other ways to handle this appropriately, such as the senior officer calling the formation and then turning it over to the NCO and my main concern is the perception and impact this has on the junior officers in the formation.

Of course, there isn't anything in the drill and ceremony reg I assume because this just isn't a thing the Army assumes would happen.

Has anyone had any experience with this type of formation and how has it been handled in your units?

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jan 7 at 2024 11:27 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Sun, 07 Jan 2024 11:27:08 -0500

Sir,

That NCO is the Commander's right-hand man or woman. They act with the authority of the CO.

Where the Officers of a unit stand in formation is.... wherever the gosh darned Commander tells them to.

I have been in MANY units like you mention. In one instance I was in the HHC for the post - the 2-star Commanding General was in the Company - as were all of his field grade staff members. And at morning (accountability) formation, the Company 1SG (E8) called the Company to attention, and gave the directive "Receive the Report." Those Section SGTs (E7-E8) then turned and ordered a report - from more NCOs. Our Junior Officers (2LT - MAJ) were standing in the ranks. Our Senior Officers (LTC - COL, and yes, the MG when he showed up) stood behind the "Platoon formation" and did not participate in the report. But you can be darned sure they came to attention, parade rest, etc. when the 1SG Commanded the formation.

That Commander is the COMMANDER - even if members of the formation outrank him or her. And that 1SG is *THE* 1SG - regardless of the ranks of the folks in the Company.

It truly baffles me - and saddens me a bit - that a Captain would have to ask this question.

Response by COL Randall C. made Jan 7 at 2024 12:34 PM

COL Randall C. — Sun, 07 Jan 2024 12:34:30 -0500

I miss when they beat D&C into our heads way back when (that's the senior officer version of "I had to walk to school ... in the snow .. uphill .. both ways!").

The BLUF statement is that officers are members of that unit. There is an officer in charge of that unit/element, an NCO in charge of that unit/element, and everyone else. So yes, if the NCO in charge of the unit calls it to attention, it doesn't mean "everybody but the officers, come to the position of attention".

Regarding where it's addressed, it is covered in the Army's drill and ceremonies publication (FM 3-21.5... err.. TC 3-21.5* now).

There are only a few key positions in the "world of D&C" for units/subunits, and those are (primarily) the officer in charge of the element (Commander at all echelons, CDR of troops, Platoon Leader, etc.), the NCO in charge of the element (CSM, 1SG, PSG, etc.), and (if applicable) the XO/adjutant.

When it comes to an element, individuals will fall into one of three categories - The officer in charge of an element, the NCO in charge of the element, and everyone else. The officer in charge of the higher element passes formation command to the officer/NCO in charge of the lower element. When an NCO is in charge of a higher element, they pass formation commands onto NCOs in charge of lower elements.

As the TC points out, "Since all situations or eventualities pertaining to drill and ceremonies cannot be foreseen, commanders may find it necessary to adjust the procedures to local conditions."

I've seen "commanders" of those 'officer heavy' units have defined what the sub-elements of the formation are in various ways (usually by some 'functional element' organization instead of everyone being organized by 'administrative element'). I put commander in quotes because in many cases, especially in the reserve component when they create an ad-hoc organizational structure for IMA positions, the 'officer in charge' is a designated individual (usually the ranking officer, but not always) rather than one that actually has any command authority over the element.

HOW are those sub-elements defined varies - that's up to the commander and the possibilities are endless when you start getting into the 'non-traditional' organizations.

One thing I have seen that is along the lines of "having the officers stand in their own spot if they aren't in command of an element", is described in the TC for 'additional officers', " Other officers assigned or attached, who have no prescribed position within the formation, form evenly to the right and left of the executive officer in a line formation; they fall out and form in one or two ranks at correct distance to the rear of the first sergeant and executive officer when the company forms in column".

The intent of the "additional officers" is for those that are not organic to the organization who have been assigned/attached to it and figuring out where they go if they aren't part of one of the elements that is in the formation. However, I have seen some of the 'non-traditional' units have officers stand in one or two ranks to the rear of the larger formation. They are still an element in the larger formation though.
---------------------------------------
* TC 3-21.5 (Drill and Ceremonies) - https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN32297-TC_3-21.5-000-WEB-1.pdf

ARN32297-TC_3-21.5-000-WEB-1.pdf

Response by Maj John Bell made Jan 7 at 2024 12:34 PM

Maj John Bell — Sun, 07 Jan 2024 12:34:33 -0500

Platoon sized unit, with the exception of the CO, XO and Senior SNCO

As I recall, but I may be wrong.

"Column of threes, Fall-in on the guidon bearer"
"At an open interval, Dress Right Dress"
"From Front to rear, Sand-blowers to the rear"
"Left-Face"
From Front to rear, Sand-blowers to the rear
"Right-face"
"Senior man in each file to the front"
"Left-Face"

CO assumes position with the XO one step to the rear on the CO's right. Senior SNCO one step to the rear on the CO's left.

Best to ask a Senior SNCO.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Jan 7 at 2024 1:55 PM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Sun, 07 Jan 2024 13:55:02 -0500

Way back, so I may misremember, as a PL I was in the rear of my platoon and when CO took company I changed places with PSG, yeah, we had those back then. :-) Staff depended on if had a second hat, 2 hatted like Motor O (maint PL) and CESO (Commo PL) fell in rear as the line platoons. Those without 2 hats and WOs just skipped formations

Response by COL Dan Ruder made Jan 7 at 2024 10:39 PM

COL Dan Ruder — Sun, 07 Jan 2024 22:39:13 -0500

I wouldn't worry too much. In nontraditional formations within large HHC/HHD units, it is entirely within the authority of an NCO to call officers and senior NCOs to attention. When the NCO decides to turn over the charge to an officer, the officer should approach the formation from the left side, positioning themselves 6 steps in front and centered on the formation. Simultaneously, the NCO should travel around the right flank and position themselves one step to the rear of the formation and centered. Executing this procedure correctly is a positive example for junior members.

Response by SSG Paul Carrier made Jan 7 at 2024 11:01 PM

SSG Paul Carrier — Sun, 07 Jan 2024 23:01:14 -0500

I went TDY with an RTOC a couple of times.
A 45 person unit headed by an O6 and had a few O5 and O4 and a bunch of O3 liaison officers. Add in a couple of E9 and E8 and a bunch of E7 and the last few spots were E4..

Response by CSM William Everroad made Jan 8 at 2024 10:00 AM

CSM William Everroad — Mon, 08 Jan 2024 10:00:51 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Your name is Steve Rogers? Bet you don't catch any flak for that at all, especially as a Captain.

To your question, others have answered already, but I think non TDA units get formations wrong all the time. Even an HHD/HHC/etc have "platoons" or sections they should be forming up in, but they typically just get lazy and do a mass formation. To me, this eats away at those section leaders from building the team and enforces the idea that there is only one person in charge of the day to day.

No matter the organization, each small team is headed up by an NCO and an Officer and should form up as such. The NCOs gather the teams, the Officer stands in the back until the next higher up echelon 's CDR take over the formation from their NCO. If there are multiple Officers in the team, they join in rank with the OIC in the back.

I always hated BN formations where all the staff decide they want to be "apart" when their section has their own platoon formation.

It is not uncommon for the NCOIC to hold an accountability formation, pretty redundant to me when you have multiple NCOs or Officers who could just report their PERSTAT, but that is me just trying to Army. But every formation would be done correctly.

I despise mass formations.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2024 2:21 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jan 2024 14:21:03 -0500

Speaking from experience, and not the regs. I've been at the company level, and the 1SG calls the accountability formation. I've been the company commander, and continued the same practice.

I'm in an Army Reserve Element (ARE) now, and there is COL as the OIC of the unit, and there re 6 sections across the unit, and each section has a COL(O6) in charge of the section. So what I'm saying is there are like 6+ COL's (to include the COL Chaplin), more LTCs than that, and more MAJ's than LTC's. I'm like 6th in seniority in my section as a CPT (it's heaven in terms of only having 2 evals to do, and no property to worry about).

The unit NCOIC calls the formation.

We all do the accountability at the section level, and move on with our day. The formation is to just get everyone on the same page as to what is going on, and who has to be where and when.

Let's not burn up 1/3 of the day in formations.

As for accountability formations after lunch, all I can say is STAY HYDRATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2024 10:47 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Jan 2024 22:47:39 -0500

This structure is usually in headquarter units. The officers would form up behind their section or platoon or in a section with all officers. The Senior NCO or 1SG will be charge of formation until they render it the commander or officer.

Response by CW3 Ray. Mead made Jan 23 at 2024 11:16 AM

CW3 Ray. Mead — Tue, 23 Jan 2024 11:16:03 -0500

I have been in such formations many times in a CEWI Company in a Combat Supporr Battalion in Panama. Our Company Commander was a Major. The Platoon Sergeant would call the platoon to attention and then turn the platoon over to the Platoon Leader. I was a Warrant Officer and we would usually stand in the back of the formation in our respective platoons.. One memorable occasion was an in ranks inspection by a full Colonel. I was a brand new WO1, with eleven years of enlisted service. I was standing between a SP4 and a PFC. God only knows why. I could hear the Colonel telling the troops that they needed a haircut, their shoes needed polished etc. Then he got to me. He did a left face, and kinda gasped and moved on. The troops thought it was funny. Me, not so much. It was the only unit of its kind that I served with in my entire career, and the worst unit I ever served in.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2024 1:06 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:06:17 -0500

CPT Rogers (Captain America?):

Per the regulation (TC 3-21.5 para 8.3):
Additional officers. Other officers assigned or attached, who have no prescribed position within the formation, form evenly to the right and left of the executive officer in a line formation; they fall out and form in one or two ranks at correct distance to the rear of the first sergeant and executive officer when the company forms in column (see figure 8-4 on page 8-7).

In reality, USAR formations occur at the beginning and end of the duty day for the sole purpose of putting out information (for the Regular Army folks, USAR OIC/NCOICs gain daily accountability outside of formation, and CDRs use the sign-in sheet over a weekend Battle Assembly). Thus, forming the unit according to TC 3-21.5 would result in a very lop-sided formation (to say the least) and not achieve the intended effect (it would be a long way to shout). Fortunately, this TC explicitly states: "Since all situations or eventualities pertaining to drill and ceremonies cannot be foreseen, commanders may find it necessary to adjust the procedures to local conditions."

Response by SGT Walt Pozgay made Feb 21 at 2024 10:43 AM

SGT Walt Pozgay — Wed, 21 Feb 2024 10:43:14 -0500

I was in an aviation unit and a school unit. In my platoon in the school unit, I had two sergeants-major and a colonel. They stood in the same rank as me when we were in a company formation. We all came to attention when it was called. I don't think any of them thought anything of it. The 1SG was in charge of the formation, period. I find it interesting that you even ask this question. Rank and Position don't mean the same thing.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2024 3:34 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Apr 2024 15:34:51 -0400

Each branch does things differently.

While formations are less common in the Navy, you'll usually have E6 and below in a giant formation at the center, with CPOs in another formation to one side, and officers in a separate formation on the other side, so it's a giant "C" that opens towards the podium.

As for who calls them to attention, it's usually the Officer of the Deck or Squadron Duty Officer, even though he's outranked by several of the officers present. Just doing his job.