What is the regulation for punishing a soldier multiple times for the same offense?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Sep 2021 21:04:59 -0400

I had a soldier ask me if he could be punished (smoked, write an essay, write the same sentence over and over again, and some other things) for a mistake he only did once.
I told him I would look up the reg but I can’t find it. I also mentioned to him that if all those things were in the same Counciling then it could be done. But I’m not sure.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2021 9:37 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Sep 2021 21:37:31 -0400

Well, in a sense, yes. Especially if he is repeating the behavior that gets him smoked/counselled, etc..

But, if he made the mistake only once and the corrective action was completed and the behavior changed...then logic dictates that he shouldn't be smoked/counselled for it again. But, to get the best and most correct answer possible, I would contact JAG for this one.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2021 10:19 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Sep 2021 22:19:26 -0400

So from my understanding of the Army’s new policy you can only perform one action per an incident. For instance you can’t do corrective training then counsel the soldier. As the SFC stated above unless a new incident occurs which ever choice of action you chose is considered the correcting action for that incident. Anymore will then put you in violation of AR 600-20 4-20 Hazing policy and this may only be if the soldier acts on making the complaint but is it really worth the career you worked for? Often we as leaders have to look deeper to see why the soldier continues to make the same mistakes. Could be something going on behind the curtain. What I have learned is sometimes smoke sessions (corrective training) or a counseling statement along with verbal counseling’s aren’t always the problem she loved of the issue and makes it worse at times. So get to know your soldier a bit more and see if anything is going on with him or back with his family at home and you just might strike gold. Good luck with this.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Sep 8 at 2021 10:20 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Wed, 08 Sep 2021 22:20:53 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member If the Soldier continues to commit the same offense, his leader has not been assigning effective corrections!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 12:15 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 00:15:19 -0400

The issue I'm thinking of here would be NJP in addition to corrective training, which JAG usually has a problem with. Like smoking a Joe who was late to formation and then requiring them to be 15 minutes early for the next month. Then that's the plan, can't be slapping an Article 15 on it as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it has happened. Just in my experience a lot of JA's disagree with it and prefer to see a history of the Soldier failing their counseled corrective training and that's what they tell the commander and 1SG/CSM in legal briefs. It's the same thing I told NCO's in legal LPD's regarding counselings and recommending UCMJ.

So if the corrective training is covered in the counseling and actually pertains to the deficiency it should be good to go. Pertaining to the deficiency is something else that was covered in those legal briefs and LPD's. It's like Joe being late and you assigning a 10,000 word essay on Loyalty. That does nothing for corrective training.

Now if there's a bunch of extra stuff being done outside of the parameters of this counseling or if the corrective training is excessive and doesn't pertain to the deficiency, the NCO's conducting the corrective training could be crossing a line. Additionally, you want to make sure that corrective training is not crossing into commanders time because then that falls into punishment territory not corrective training which is NCO territory.

AR 600-20, 4-6 and AR 27-10, 3-2 should have some good info for you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 12:53 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 00:53:05 -0400

The regulation is that you do not administer punishment, the commander does. Push-ups and writing essays are not a punishment, they are corrective training. A leader may direct as much corrective training as they see necessary to correct a deficiency. If it takes push-ups, writing an essay, giving a class, and digging a foxhole to get through to that Soldier, that leader has the authority to do so.

NJP is punishment. Court martial, confinement, loss of rank, forfeiture of pay, extra duty, manual labor (in prison), all directed by the Commander, are examples of punishment.

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 9 at 2021 6:12 AM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 06:12:23 -0400

I freely admit that when I last wore a uniform saber-tooth tooth tigers roamed the Earth.

Write an essay??? Write the same sentence over and over again??????? WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I say again WTF!!!!!!!!!!!! [Lord how I wish RP supported bold face, underline, red, and italic fonts.]

What a bunch of silly ass nonsense. Leaders who do this teaching one thing and one thing only... resentment. Grown men and women resent being treated like children. Well they should. Never give them busy work.

When they screw up it was either:
_An error of enthusiasm,
_An error of judgment/oversight, or
_An error of malice.

With errors of enthusiasm, ask them what they've learned. Ask them to quickly explain 2-3 different ways they could have done it better. Critiques their response If what was done can be unscrewed, make them unscrew it. Get back to the business of the day. Repeat offenses of the same nature get some after hours additional duties (REAL WORK - that would have to be done by someone anyway) and written counseling.

With errors of judgment/oversight, ask them what they've learned. Ask them to quickly explain 2-3 different ways they could have done it better. Critiques their response If what was done can be unscrewed, make them unscrew it, during prime liberty time, Friday or Saturday night from 2000-0001. Assign some additional duties (REAL WORK - that would have to be done by someone anyway) and have them do it after hours. Repeat offenses of the same nature get a smoking or if necessary and appropriate, administrative action.

With errors of malice, they know it was wrong, there is nothing to teach; punish as appropriate. And remember an old Chinese proverb... "It is best and least cruel to beat an errant dog one time harshly than a hundred times lightly."

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Sep 9 at 2021 8:27 AM

SSG Edward Tilton — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:27:20 -0400

He picked this fight

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 9 at 2021 8:39 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:39:01 -0400

If this young kid (based on the context, clearly not a Soldier yet) is going to consider it "punishment" every time he has to do any training, this is going to be a looooong four years for him.

Response by Sgt Jordan Foster made Sep 9 at 2021 9:11 AM

Sgt Jordan Foster — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 09:11:10 -0400

Telling a junior to look up a regulation you don’t know is Power suicide.

But let’s keep in mind that people are human and will hold grudges. Are you the NCO “disciplining” this soldier? Or is the junior playing mommy and daddy?

Talk to your fellow NCOs about the problem because your going to get a lot of veterans that “would do it this way” but you know your Platoon, NCOs and troops better than anybody on here..

Response by SSG Brian G. made Sep 9 at 2021 9:31 AM

SSG Brian G. — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 09:31:58 -0400

Seems some dispelling is in order. First? Getting smoked, writing and essay, writing the same sentence etc are not punishments. They are examples of corrective actions. Which any leader can administer as deemed necessary. Punishment comes about only through the use of NJP and that is ONLY done by the commander or higher authority. IE loss of rank, restriction to base/quarters, extra duty, forfeiture of pay, etc.

So here is how things could flow. The SM screws up and does something. At the onset you write the SM a counseling statement outlining what they did wrong, the legal consequences that COULD result from their screwup and then you outline a corrective action. Let's say in this case the SM failed their PT test. So you as his nco counsel him and order him to do extra PT in the form of 50 pushups whenever he is addressing you with anything. This is corrective action. Now, this can and likely will still hit the commanders desk and a commander can flag the SM and if they feel the need or want, give the SM an Article 15 and in that they are restricted to barracks and must perform extra duty as punishment.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Sep 9 at 2021 10:13 AM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 10:13:11 -0400

As my DS used to say, it is a case of mind over matter, I don't mind, and you don't matter.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 10:36 AM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 10:36:52 -0400

From what I understand, the order usually goes as follows: verbal counseling, written counseling, recommendation for article. Now I believe that if an NCO gave a verbal or written counseling stating a corrective action, it has to pertain to the deficiency and there are certain regs on pt corrective training: ie. No more than 10 reps of each exercise without the NCO participating as well. Now if the Soldier continues to get random corrective actions for a single deficiency, that's when it becomes a problem. The counseling process is to protect both the NCO and the Soldier from any accusations of misconduct.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Sep 10 at 2021 2:54 AM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 02:54:33 -0400

Writing the same sentence over and over again? Who is your C.O. Captain Kangaroo? This IS the US Army we are talking about, not JROTC?
WOW, things have changed since I retired. We would have never thought to have someone write "I will not fuck up" 500 times...
Corrective Training needs to be related to the offense and needs to be administered and supervised and put in Counseling. If the soldier continues to do the same thing it is a pattern of misconduct and gets referred to the CO for action and final disposition and you get a new private as a replacement for Bart Simpson.