What is the root cause? One Veteran's idea towards falsifying records.

2015-04-09T15:58:26-04:00

Over the past few days and weeks, I been batting around this idea of why people either falsify their military records or just make up whatever lies to pass themselves off as someone they are not. We have had plenty of discussions about picking apart their uniforms or about how some Veterans have dealt with the situation when it enters their space but the one discussion we really haven't had yet is to look into why. Sure, free and discounted items is always high on the list but I mean why from a larger view.

Humans are very much a social animal. We hang out and seek adoption by liked minded people. Heck, that is why RallyPoint exists, to allow those of that served to have a place we were can get together and achieve some level of acceptance among peers. With this idea in mind, I started to look at the numerous cases that liter the internet. One common thing runs across all of these. Acceptance. People desire to be accepted have pushed them to embellish or straight out line about their military service. Acceptance has driven people to con others out of thousands of dollars. Acceptance has lead them to lie to everyone around them.

Is acceptance wrong to seek? Heck no. I'm writing this in order to see if my idea will be accepted or if I'm way off target. But like so many other things when dealing with humans and their thoughts, the true answer is covered in a dark film of other issues.

I think the one thing we can do as Veterans when it comes to those that lie about their record is to show them that it doesn't matter what you did in the service. If you were out on point everyday or you were helping to push bullets and water to the guys on the front, every position is valuable. Not everyone is going to walk out of combat with a chest full of awards. Not everyone will have the ability to complete the elite training that others receive. But the truth remains, we all, regardless of rank, branch, MOS, gender, creed and background, completed a job that most Americans are too scared to do. We did that job, did it well and are here to help remember those that aren't here anymore. We owe a debt to those that never made it home to be examples to others around us. We are this nation's thought leaders and one day very soon will find ourselves in positions to move mountains.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Apr 9 at 2015 4:08 PM

2015-04-09T16:08:56-04:00

Zero defect culture...
We have created an American culture that is based more on image than on substance. Therefore, integrity and character become secondary to appearance.
In the military, often times it is the awards and schools that sets a person apart when it comes time to be competitive for promotion.

Still, this is not a problem that owes itself to the nature of military culture, but is more the result of the culture that we draw our recruits and officers from. We spend more time and money in America in an attempt to rebrand ourselves than we do on actually developing the skills, abilities, and character that would set us apart.

The road less traveled is often harder, but the journey is worth the destination.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 9 at 2015 4:17 PM

2015-04-09T16:17:19-04:00

Here's the response I provided to:

Stolen Valor - The Insider Threat... How do we stop this? started by COL Charles Williams

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/stolen-valor-the-insider-threat-how-do-we-stop-this?page=2&urlhash=581205#581205

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Approaching this from a different angle.

"Have we made the bait too enticing?"

Have we made the value of these items so high that it is putting people into a position where they feel they must have them to compete?

Keep in mind I come from the USMC side, and we have very little flair, or even schools for that matter. The items we do have are generally so exclusive (SCUBA bubble, Jump Wings, Aviator Wings, etc) that not having them doesn't affect your promotion chances. Our awards system is much "slimmer" as well. The idea of having 10+ Commendation or Achievement awards is unheard of, and having a Bronze Star for anything other than Valor just doesn't seem to happen. I don't think we even use a points system for promotion at the boards (though I can't speak directly to it).

Having these items directly tied to a persons career and livelihood seems like a great way to create ethical dilemmas. When you add in the respect that comes with visual awards, whether tabs, CIB/CMB/CAB, etc.. I can definitely see a case for "setting people up for failure" in that "you must have X to be a good soldier."

This isn't designed to excuse the stolen valor behavior. Far from it. But... Look at the Tour D'France fiasco. They couldn't even award it after stripping Armstrong of his, because the problem had become so prevalent. The parallels are there.
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I don't know if this is the reason, but the more I look at it, the more my logic seems solid, at least "in part."

Stolen Valor - The Insider Threat... How do we stop this? | RallyPoint

Stolen Valor is bad enough when it is person who is not actually affiliated with the military. And, I understand many of these folks have mental illnesses and perhaps they know not what they do. But, what do you think, how do you feel, or how do you react when an active duty service members wear awards and decorations they are not authorized? It seems it is always leaders... It seems to happen often. The LTC at Fort Benning... and now this......

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 5:00 PM

2015-04-09T17:00:22-04:00

I will just say that everyone wants to be that hero. We see these movies with glorious battles, in reality they aren't, and how bad ass it is to be a SEAL/Ranger/Delta/SF/Operator. But they didn't have it in them to do it. They want the praise. They want to accolades or the thanks. I have yet to find anyone fake that they were a mechanic or a admin guy. They are all Rangers or snipers. They want to feel like they are badass. For those of us that do the dirty work to get where we are we are proud of our accomplishments. I never did it for the accomplishments. But that is the sole reason why they claim it. They are glory hounds. Since they don't have any valor they will steal it.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 9 at 2015 9:09 PM

2015-04-09T21:09:52-04:00

I think part of this could be acceptance, but part (with many) is about personal gain, as they wear these awards for board photos and records. It is wrong on both counts, so how do you fix it?

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 9 at 2015 9:09 PM

2015-04-09T21:09:54-04:00

I think part of this could be acceptance, but part (with many) is about personal gain, as they wear these awards for board photos and records. It is wrong on both counts, so how do you fix it?

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 9 at 2015 9:09 PM

2015-04-09T21:09:54-04:00

I think part of this could be acceptance, but part (with many) is about personal gain, as they wear these awards for board photos and records. It is wrong on both counts, so how do you fix it?

Response by PO1 John Miller made Apr 9 at 2015 9:36 PM

2015-04-09T21:36:56-04:00

SGT Ben Keen , I wholeheartedly agree. While I served in a few combat zones during my career I never directly served in combat. I think the closest I came is the F-18 pilots on one of my ships dropped bombs on Iraq in 2003.

With that said, I have never felt the need to embellish my service when talking about ti. In fact I'm brutally honest about it. Civilians ask me "have you ever been in combat?" and other questions of that ilk. I say "Nope. I reset LAN passwords during the Iraq war." I may get a few funny looks but I didn't serve in the military to get a civilian's respect.

When I talk with other veterans, even combat veterans, they immediately accept me as one of their own. A good friend of my dad's was an Army tail gunner in Vietnam and he never talks about his experiences. I ran into him at my dad's funeral last year and we swapped military stories for a good 30 minutes. This man's own son approached me afterwards and said how amazed he was that his dad talked to me like that, and that was the most he had ever heard him talk about Vietnam.

I know a lot of Nam vets, as most of the men I perform Patriot Guard Riders missions with were in Nam or are Nam-era vets. They don't think any less of me because I never saw combat, and often thank me for my own service before I have a chance to thank them for theirs!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 10:04 PM

2015-04-09T22:04:54-04:00

I understand that, but as much as we are all similar in tendencies, some are here, because regardless of what you did in the service, the civilian world has yet to figure out what do we do. Even family members, who think the military is easy, you just have to follow orders and march, and dress right dress. I don't personally think it is approval, I get that. There is also a portion of us disgusted to what is going on with our country and simply pissed off at the fact that after all that hard work we did over in Iraq, now, seems we have to go yet again, thanks to the shortcomings of our leadership. I think it is more complex than that.

At times, I feel is the way to reach out those of us who really need to talk to a kind voice who will be able to understand them at the same level. I have lost too many friends, and fellow soldiers, in the battlefield as well as back in the world, and try to maintain contact with them. If I can do that here, it is a win for me.
Please don't take this as an invalidation of your point, but rather as an expansion of your well expressed question

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Sep 1 at 2015 4:23 PM

2015-09-01T16:23:45-04:00

SGT Ben Keen, It is Human Nature!

Response by Lt Col Robert Canfield made Feb 9 at 2016 6:05 PM

2016-02-09T18:05:21-05:00

I think there are two issues that are the cause; and they both can feed off each other. The first is greed, the idea that you can get something for nothing (or very little). It's the same thing that motivates someone to rob a bank or steal a car. Although after scrolling through the long list of "players" on http://thisainthell.us, it does not look like monetary gain (i.e. free VA benefits etc) is the key motivator in most cases. The second is a psychological need for approval, fame, recognition etc. I think there was something fundamentally missing in their life (perhaps going back to childhood).

After reading the summaries on some of these "characters" there is definitely something out-of-whack that makes them want to dress up and play soldier. Most of these guys look like they have some major issues and probably should not be given sharp objects or be allowed to operate heavy machinery. Maybe they missed their calling and should have joined a local theater troop so they could play "King Lear" on stage and get the applause and fame they desperately seek (and think they deserve). I have read that one of the traits that makes good actors is that something about their character does not mature. Well....a lot of these guys fall into that category. Especially since they have no empathy for those whom they harm. Not only do they harm the people they imitate, but what about the embarrassment and shame of their relatives and close friends?

Except for those cases where someone is committing fraud for monetary gain, I think this is an unrecognized mental health problem. If old "Uncle Henry" repeatedly dressed up like Teddy Roosevelt and ran up the steps yelling "CHARGE!", I think his friends and relatives would quietly escort him to the nearest mental health clinic. Hopefully they would at least wait until he sobers up. A lot of these guys are doing just what Uncle Henry is doing, except their outward behavior is just not as obvious.

This ain't Hell, but you can see it from here

...but you can see it from here

Response by Lt Col Robert Canfield made Feb 10 at 2016 8:41 PM

2016-02-10T20:41:12-05:00

This ain't Hell, but you can see it from here

...but you can see it from here

Response by SGT Paul Mackay made May 21 at 2016 2:49 PM

2016-05-21T14:49:59-04:00

some had failed commands and lie about records.

Response by SGT Paul Mackay made May 27 at 2016 6:49 PM

2016-05-27T18:49:17-04:00

people falsify records to destory another person career to make themselves look better or inoccent of unlawful acts that they could be court-marshelled for

Response by SGT Paul Mackay made Jun 20 at 2016 6:42 PM

2016-06-20T18:42:47-04:00

I was discharged and detained illegally in Ft. Riley, Kansas for 4 and a half months records show it but Ft. Riley claims I was never there. isn't that falsifying records to protect themselves.