What is wrong with Army Aircrews?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:05:17 -0400

I am a CH-47 Flight Engineer Instructor at Ft. Rucker, AL that works for Flight School XXI. I've been a crewmember on Chinooks since 2003 with the 101st, 2 ID and 10th MTN. One common thread I have noted in offline discussions with other servicemembers, regardless of branch of service, whether inside or outside Army Aviation is that my fellow crewmembers have been viewed as lazy and unprofessional. I will not deny that sometimes this is exactly the case, but generally speaking it is not. This question is an effort to promote understanding, end some stigmas, and overall improve not only the quality of crewmembers, but also the quality of dealings between aircrews and supported units.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2014 12:07 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:07:53 -0400

I have briefed A few Army pilots and they seemed professional to me.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2014 12:08 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:08:06 -0400

I think alot of aircrew are viewed as lazy...its just a different world in aviation. Its not just the Army.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2014 12:47 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:47:48 -0400

SSG Utter; I wouldn't worry about it. First of all, the infantry thinks everyone is lazy. Then the cavalry thinks that everyone but them and the infantry are lazy, including the heavy armor units, but the infantry are snobs because they think the CAV is lazy. Then the armor guys think that everyone except the infantry and the CAV are lazy but that the infantry and the CAV are arrogant bastards because they think the armor guys are lazy and eat donuts all the time. Keep on rolling this downhill until you get to the Aviation and the air crews themselves. The bottom line is that when the big-3: Infantry, Armor/Cavalry, and Field Artillery see you guys, they see you fly in (generally not a hard job), hop out, give some instructions, unwind the cord attached to your head so you don't get sucked up into the blades while you are telling us what to do and which side of the aircraft to approach from, watch us load the stuff and then help us tie it down...then you smoke and joke with the pilots and wait until someone has to go to the bathroom before you close everything up and take off. THEN...we get dropped off somewhere to do more killin...and you guys fly off. Now there is a LOT of sarcasm in there, but if you asked a "Joe" to sum it up, there you go. The bottom line is that no one sees all of the other things you do to make sure that that single, extremely valuable piece of equipment is fully operational and able to do what it is supposed to be doing when the Army needs it the most...and they never will...and most will never care. In this profession, you have to be happy and confident that your part of the machine works perfectly...every time...all the time. If someone doesn't say, "That's the shiniest diamond I have ever seen...is it any less shiny? No...just be shiny...and don't worry if people don't say so.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Mar 18 at 2014 9:19 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Tue, 18 Mar 2014 21:19:55 -0400

I am/was Infantry and served in several positions within Infantry Divisions. I do not ever recall any of us having nothing but respect for Aircrews. Jealous maybe, but not ever disrespected by me and my cohorts.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2014 2:48 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 May 2014 02:48:07 -0400

We may be a different animal than most fields in the Army, but I dont think people really view us as lazy, or unproffessional. We are usually the ones pulling the long hours and busting our butts day in and day out.

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made May 7 at 2014 10:35 PM

SSG Gerhard S. — Wed, 07 May 2014 22:35:12 -0400

As a Long Range Surveillance Team Leader, I've had many opportunities to coordinate, and brief rotary wing aircrews on routes, and procedures. I have had nothing but positive experiences in doing so.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2014 10:58 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 May 2014 22:58:54 -0400

Having jumped from foreign, USMC, USAF and Army aircraft and having witnessed them in action... I would not say that the Army crews are the worst. I will leave it at that..

Response by SSG Mark Ives made May 7 at 2014 11:51 PM

SSG Mark Ives — Wed, 07 May 2014 23:51:35 -0400

We used to have Chinook's deliver nuclear warheads to our combat site, in the '70's & '80's and the aircrews were very professional. But, than again, perhaps having a payload of 150 KT of explosives made them more aware of their duties! I also had an experience with a dustoff crew when we had a vehicle accident on an FTX and they were very good. The pilots & crew most likely were Vietnam era in both cases.

Response by SSG Stewart Boner made May 8 at 2014 11:47 AM

SSG Stewart Boner — Thu, 08 May 2014 11:47:33 -0400

Along with SSG. Seidel, I have had many opportunities to work with both Army and Air Force aircrews. The only issue I have ever had was 1 loadmaster on a C-17. As we were deploying to Iraq, and flying directly into country, we were authorized to fly with ammo. As the air-load planner and HAZMAT guy, I had tons of paperwork that needed to be filled out. Under the requirements of HAZMAT, ordinance, such as bombs, has an explosive weight that must be listed, I get that. But this clown wanted the explosive weight per round of 9mm, 5.56 and 7.62 that we were flying into country with. 3 out of our 4 A/C that we were flying with didn't want it, but this guy said we wouldn't get off the ground without it.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2014 11:55 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 May 2014 23:55:22 -0400

SSG Utter,
I was in the Sugarbears from 2000 to 2003. I am a 15D by trade, so I work in the back shops. While I totally disagree with the lazy part, I only half heartedly disagree with the unprofessional part. I have been in Blackhawk units, Chinook units, and Apache units. There is a GREAT deal of indiscipline within the Aviation ranks. While in the Chinook Unit Crewchiefs, pilots, and NCO's all called each other by their first name. They said it was to instill crew integrity while on the Aircraft. Got it, but when it overflows outside the crew duties.. it's unprofessional. We avaition like to stand around with hands in pockets, have to constantly be told to get hair cuts. We push the limits it almost seems to see if we can set a new standard. I have been Army Aviation for 23 years now and it seems their is no change in sight. If we don't want to be viewed this way then we as NCO's need to fix the standard and start following it and enforcing it.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2014 2:06 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 May 2014 02:06:27 -0400

Ive been on British, Army, Marine Corps and Air Force piloted fixed and rotary wing assets in Afghanistan and Iraq. Ive never came across crew chiefs being lazy and unprofessional but I've see sometimes just frustration. I give it to the crew chiefs, being in a stupid hot environment, extrememly loud noises, fluids dripping on you, and having to move heavy gear on and off at the cyclic rate, I could see myself getting a little agitated.

Response by 1SG Gary Newton made May 27 at 2014 9:42 AM

1SG Gary Newton — Tue, 27 May 2014 09:42:53 -0400

I suppose both laziness and unprofessional standards come from your point of view when looking at crew members. Both rated and non-rated. You came into aviation just prior to transformation so you may not know much about the way it was before that but in my opinion that is where a lot of things changed in Army Aviation. Due to flying more hours with fewer aircraft and crews the FE and CE now are flying more and working on the aircraft less which gives the impression to many as laziness. The aircraft have suffered because there is no pride in ownership since you don't crew the aircraft you own, if you even own one anymore. I saw it before I retired and still see it today. I could probably go on for pages but that's my .02 cents on the issue.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2014 2:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Aug 2014 14:29:53 -0400

I was a 63D Arty Mechanic on a M88 recovery team before transitioning to Aviation maintenance. I will say allot of jokes and sarcasms went around in 2003-2005. The first two tours the Aviation MOS was characterized as lazy; reason being allot of the units were staged in Arifijan first few months(March thru April 03) until ground forces secured airfields and landing strips. Hell the TAJI airfield was used as a vehicle column staging area up through spring of 2004. No worries man as a 15D doing my part i worked my butt off to make sure combat arms personnel were not only offered maximum support by Aviation assets but within my little realm in my shop explained and showed pictures of life on the ground to my own subordinates and while we have a more technical job we have a duty to those who are in harms way on the battlefield everyday to support. I am not saying Aviation hasn't seen its fare share of engagements but comparatively and technologically ground forces always take the hits first especially with developing UAV technologies.... Danger for aviators and ground personnel will be quite less than previous wars.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 19 at 2014 6:00 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 19 Aug 2014 18:00:00 -0400

Not a damn thing! Crewdogs work like slaves! They are dedicated to the point of volunteering to come in on crew rest/reset days.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Aug 19 at 2014 6:45 PM

MSgt Keith Hebert — Tue, 19 Aug 2014 18:45:11 -0400

CH53E the only heavy lift
Swing with the wing

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 7 at 2014 11:11 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 11:11:28 -0500

In early 2003, we were in the Sunni Triangle and water was VERY hard to get. Everyone saved their piss bottles so we could have something to clean windscreens for the pilots. Those !@#$ dust storms every day would try to bury the acft and keep us grounded yet despite 120+*, mortars, rockets, ASP's blowing up left and right, and every bonehead with an AK and RPG, NOTHING wouldn't stop our crews from making mission to take care of our Tanks and Bradleys from 2/3 ACR. I have NEVER I repeat EVER had anything but praise for my crewchiefs. Their dedication and hard work brought tears to my eyes on a daily basis. I am sorry if any of you senior leaders ever felt otherwise. Pride in ownership? Our crewchiefs DEFINED pride in ownership.

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Nov 7 at 2014 2:42 PM

SFC Vernon McNabb — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 14:42:34 -0500

I am not lazy! I am just conserving my energy for when the S#!T hits the fan.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2014 1:44 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 01:44:16 -0500

They are not Air Force Aircrews? lol

Response by PFC Stephen Eric Serati made Nov 8 at 2014 12:12 PM

PFC Stephen Eric Serati — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 12:12:43 -0500

SSG Utter,my primary mos was 11b,Infantry.During the 1st gulf war I was assigned to 9th Battalion,101st Aviation Regiment as a gunner slash assistant crew chief.I was proud to be part of the best aircrew in the military.Aviators are not lazy they just have a diffrent mission.I had the unique opporrtunity to crosstrain.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Nov 8 at 2014 12:21 PM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 12:21:54 -0500

My experience with Army Aviation has been nothing but professional. While assigned to 3/4 CAV in Hawaii back in 04-06, we worked hand-in-hand with OH58D Kiowa's. I was a ground Scout Platoon Sergeant and I loved our KW pilots and their support personnel. They were angels on our shoulders every time we were out of the wire in Afghanistan. They fought tooth-and-nail to always be with us when we were out; even if their allotted time in the air was up they would request the extension to stay out. I loved those guys and still do. Air-Ground-Integration at its finest.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 11:36 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 23:36:13 -0500

The way that it was explained to me when I stepped into Aviation 2 years ago was that it was incredibly lax. And it was incredibly lax because of the risk involved in flying. To try to maintain a relaxed atmosphere in a stressful environment there are particular things that aren't worried about. The primary things that are focused on are safety, maintenance, and crew skills. When situation dictates, like when you're doing VIP missions or Hero missions, the soldier stuff gets turned on.

There are definitely egos and cowboys abound in Aviation, but there's no lack of professionalism in my opinion and experiences.

Response by CW4 William Van Almsick made Aug 2 at 2015 10:35 PM

CW4 William Van Almsick — Sun, 02 Aug 2015 22:35:54 -0400

In the mid-90's, my primary flight job, in addition to being the Battalion Standards Officer, was to fly the Command & Control Blackhawk in support of an Infantry Brigade. We were the first unit to have a Commo person assigned to flight status for the purpose of maintaining and operation of the C2 package in the back of the aircraft. I explained to the crew how important this mission was and the type/rank of people that would be onboard. I set a high standard for my crew chief and commo person. When anyone outside of the aircrew was in our presence, we addressed each other per Army regs and we treated our supported comrades with the respect afforded with their position and rank. Those guys busted their butts for the success of our mission. They were always on the limits of crew endurance but they never whined. The aircraft always made the mission because they, and many other unsung maintenance worker bees busted their butts making sure the aircraft was maintained properly. I was extremely proud of my crew chief and commo person.

And for their unending efforts and professionalism, I took care of my crew. I made sure they were fed, I would get them "goodies" from the mess tent, and any nicety that I could scrounge up from our supported units. I also communicated with their respective NCO's to ensure that they received an evaluation commensurate with their performance.

There were times that I ran interference for my crew from their NCO but I was always fully communicating with the NCO and they knew that I would provide any counseling needed for the issue. That is the unique thing about Army Aviation. Where else does a junior enlisted service member get to sit-down in a relaxed environment and talk to an officer (ranging from junior Officer to senior Officer) about their problems or issues? I have talked to my crew members about how to properly handle issues with their NCO without getting into trouble. I have talked to them about financial management, car buying, career planning, relationships, you name it.

That is the part that the rest of the Army doesn't see or understand. I remember during my enlisted days as a Combat Engineer (12B) that I didn't see my Platoon Leader for days at a time and I very rarely got to talk to him. When I was talking with my Platoon Sergeant, it was always a one-way conversation. There was never any interaction on how to handle our issues, especially non-military issues.

So, with this unofficial, off-the-record counselling, we built a very strong team environment. It works for Aviation but I know it will not work for Infantry.