What is your advice on how I should handle working with an ineffective commander who is a long-time comrade/friend/superior?

Jake Lang — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 02:13:05 -0400

Hello RallyPoint, hope everyone is doing well. Unfortunately, I have run afoul recently with a situation involving a comrade/friend/superior. Normally I'd post this on some other site as it is not militarily related (at most, the only thing remotely related to the military is that the friend in question is a veteran himself - a former 0311 marine), but I've run out of sites to go to with advice on this (as many allow very little articulation for an explanation).

SHORT BOTTOMLINE VERSION:

I act as executive officer for an organization, the commanding officer slipped up quite a few times already and the organization itself is going nowhere with the chartered objectives of the organization. I've thought about leaving/resigning, but the men under our charge want me to stay. There's even talk amongst the guys that they want to vote me in as the CO's replacement. I am not a fan of that idea as the CO is not just my superior, but a friend that I've known for the past 11 years (I knew him since he graduated from Pendleton long ago).

Either way, was hoping to get your guys' thoughts and advice on this.

FULL DETAILS:

I won't go into to much details, but I'm part of an all volunteer organization (executive officer/vice president to be exact) that is in the process of transitioning over to a FEMA certified (our individual members are suppose to be certified) organization (at least that was the original plan). Now we're trying to achieve our Red Card (firefighter volunteer certification). Throughout the past 8 years, we've transitioned over to something else three times already (first a decent size paintball/airsoft group, then a real-steel gun club - as we were all avid recreational shooters as well, now to our current form - a volunteer crisis response group). In all those 8 years, we've had not much to show for it. No major recreational events won, no trophies to show for, and even though we want to get our certs - we have yet had any.

Recently, I've also noticed that our designated leader (my immediate superior, the commanding officer/president) of the organization (the one who's been in command ever since we got together years ago) has lost his charisma/charm on me and others. Back then when something went south or didn't go according to plan (which actually happened quite often now that I think about it), I found some of the reasons to lie in his decision-making (or lack thereof). When I did bring up attention to this - along with faults that I owned up to, he'd immediately agree on my flaws, yet (I laugh now thinking about it) when I bought up what I perceived as issues that he himself should've made a call on, he immediately goes on the defensive (calmly at first). Eventually if I ever pushed further on a subject about his lack of decisions or actions, he got pretty red and started cursing me out (to which he would just call it the "heat of the passion"). I laugh more so now because he always kept saying that if we ever felt like he was messing up, to let him now, yet when I provide even the most minor of constructive critiquing, he goes ape-crap crazy.

To be honest, I don't know. I've been friends with the guy for over a decade, other than this, he's a good guy, but he's really starting to screw the pooch here a bit, the only thing he hasn't done yet is sleep with everyone's ladies behind our backs (and I am not using that lightly, he literally let a nobody into our comms without notifying us just because the stranger asked him - probably regaled my friend with how he could try and help us with things. Our CO/Pres legit breached OPSEC with that). And once again, he always says he has an open door policy, yet when anyone of us or us as a group calls him out on something, he either curses everyone out or thinks we're spewing nonsense. As if to add on the juvenility of it, when we did bring forth an issue on him, he just kept going "None of ya went through what I did? What about you XO, you ever gone through Marine Basic? What about you Seniors? Any of you gone through training like that? Didn't think so!". Should one of our jobs be a security detail/base-line tactical stuff, sure - he'd probably be our most knowledgable individual, but other than that, I'm not too sure.

A little tidbit, couple of our senior members bought up the idea of voting on having me replace him, but I doubt I have the heart to do that. I may or may not make better calls than him (I am willing to admit my weaknesses whereas he doesn't), but to screw a friend that I've known for years that way. I don't know, that ain't me. Also the fact that I hate being in the spotlight. These guys are good people, they like our CO/Pres also, but some of his mess ups are wearing on them, too.

I've thought long and hard (yes, in come the jokes) on walking away from this, I've thought about just packing my stuff and heading home for good, but at the same time, a lot of the guys under us are asking me to stay when they heard of that possibility. I've pretty much almost made up my mind that by the time I ship off to basic next year or so, if things haven't changed (if we don't start getting our crap in order and squared away), I'm just gonna resign my post right before shipping off and wish them the best.

Bottomline is that this guy (our CO/Pres) is messing up and I see the group still without direction and going nowhere. I plan on leaving, but the guys under us ask that I stay. They even mentioned voting me in as his replacement, but again, I'm not a fan of that as the man's been my friend for the past 11 years and I myself am not a fan of being in the spotlight.

Anyways, if I could get some advice and thoughts on this from anyone (especially some 0311 marines, both former and current), I'd appreciate it. Thanks guys and I hope you guys are all doing well.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2020 3:17 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 03:17:38 -0400

I'm sorry. In all that, there were so many off to the side tangents I lost track. Is there a question in this? Can you shorten this down with a BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT question?

Response by SSG Brian G. made Sep 30 at 2020 3:47 AM

SSG Brian G. — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 03:47:58 -0400

Wow, ok. First? A LOT of stuff in there that no one here needed to know in relation to whatever question you have. Shorten it down by like... 4/5's of what you have. Who is this person in relation to you and what is the problem that you are having with him?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2020 4:33 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 04:33:52 -0400

I'm trying to see what your goal is. Are you trying to save the organization, your friendship, or both.
How long has your organization been in its third evolution, because honestly it seems like you are a bunch of friends trying to organize into doing something none of you have expertise in. That is fine to do if you have sat down and written out a POA&M to properly set up the organization and understand how you are going to function. If an executive is not acting in the best interest of an organization you can replace them or move on. if you want to maintain the relationship you can possibly still play paintball together. But it is time to take a realistic look at what is going on within your organization, its set up and goals. I recommend you step back the organization to a previous evolution and properly identify how to move forward.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2020 8:13 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 08:13:39 -0400

how big is this organization? it sounds like it's just a small group of guys and you've let this dude stay in charge for far too long. also sounds like you need a leader who can give your group a sense of direction and purpose instead of bouncing from one goal to another without ever achieving anything. You have, IMHO, two options. 1. be the change you desire or 2. pop smoke.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Sep 30 at 2020 8:58 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 08:58:17 -0400

This is all over the place.

This is just a bunch of volunteers who voted a majority leader or is this a legitimate organization with a legal and administrative structure? You keep using terms like President, VP, CEO, CO, XO, etc but it seems like a loosely managed group of volunteers.
I'm also curious why you zeroed in on 0311's as the demographic you want advice from when the environments and unit structures are night and day different.

With that all said here it goes. If this is a structured organization with rules, bylaws and a management plan that allows for new leadership to be installed just work within that space.

But my guess this is just a volunteer group of like minded individuals who allowed this guy to be the leader up until this point because the original idea was their baby. The problem you will run into is that this guy considers his idea as part of his identity just like a band. You could try to remove him from his position but you need to weigh the pro/con of it. If this is just a volunteer group with no investments other than time just start a new group without the toxic leader.

But if you have invested intertest in the group with equipment, money etc and you need to salvage that then you guys need to have it made into a legitimate non profit with bylaws that allow you to protect your baby the right way so one guy can dominate the narrative like this.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 30 at 2020 10:00 AM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 10:00:57 -0400

Pop smoke and avoid the drama, when you leave others will follow. You will never get this guy out, so don't waste the efforts. If he can't acknowledge his flaws then walk away. Just because he went to USMC boot camp doesn't by itself, make him a leader.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2020 10:08 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 10:08:47 -0400

Sounds like you may need to choose a priority, your friendship or this organization.
If the others in the organization vote him out, that's not on you. The organization has priorities and goals that are not being met and sounds like it needs new leadership. If your friend no longer has the organization's goals in mind, he should be removed from his role.
As a friend, you have tried to bring things to his attention and it was not productive. You have to give yourself credit that your made an attempt and move on. You cannot force others to change.
Either way, your friend will probably be angry at first. Hopefully overtime he will be able to reflect and understand other's point of view.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 30 at 2020 12:33 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 12:33:40 -0400

He is an incompetent toxic leader. It's simple. Status quo, quit, replace him. You have to figure out what your priorities are.

Response by Maj Kim Patterson made Sep 30 at 2020 1:44 PM

Maj Kim Patterson — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 13:44:08 -0400

Jake Lang it appears you answered your own question as you wrote. Decide what is more important. A friendship (does it still exist) or new leadership? If it needs new leadership are you willing to take the responsibility? To me, it sounds like a no. Time to take your toys and go to a place that values what you have to offer.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2020 2:00 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 14:00:36 -0400

Like most (if not everyone) here I stopped reading as soon as I saw how long the post was.

Anyway, I have quite a bit non profit experience, and played a part in turning around a failing organization. Then I stepped away from the Board of Directors after the course had been corrected only to see the organization fall apart again several years later.

Bottom Line:
Non Profit Organizations come and go. Unless you personally are the one executing the actions needed for success you just have to "let it go".

Walk away, and continue the mission elsewhere.

Response by SPC Kerry Good made Sep 30 at 2020 2:44 PM

SPC Kerry Good — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 14:44:55 -0400

My suggestion is roll a frag under his butt, I know not funny, even when they happened in Nam.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Sep 30 at 2020 7:01 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Wed, 30 Sep 2020 19:01:40 -0400

Commander? Of a loosely organized civilian organization? Call for the vote! Get him gone or get on your own horse!

Response by Jake Lang made Oct 2 at 2020 12:24 AM

Jake Lang — Fri, 02 Oct 2020 00:24:31 -0400

Bit of an update to the current situation, apparently the stranger who our CO invited (because he was a friend our CO and he thought the guy would be a good set of eyes and ears in our AO, even though he's from the opposite coast) to our comms system/network. Somehow he was able to breach our secured comms for certified members only (which is supposed to be locked out to anyone who isn't...well...a "certified members"...), he then proceeded to retrieve sensitive information (i.e. personal social media accounts, emails, etc.) of current members. This issue actually turned a couple of senior members away and now has some of the guys fuming.

I personally already gotten off of the comms system/network for good since our little friend (the stranger himself) was added on since I considered him a possible liability, but the rest of the guys (especially the ones with their info now out), are fuming like tea kettles. This wasn't the biggest mess up our CO did, but it was the most recent. The guys bought forth the issue to me and I then to the CO. The CO...<sigh>...then proceeded to say something along the lines of "So? Their online info got out, it's all public knowledge anyways, not like they're gonna get stalked in person." (something of his usual response). I then proceeded to press the issue with "Dude...their info got out...emails, FB account, instagram, twitter, etc." to which he proceeded to say "Again...so? If it was some complete stranger that actually intended to harm us, then yeah, but the guy's not, he's a friend of mine." (which to be fair, when we called the stranger out on it, he apologized and said that he didn't know it was off limits, and that he has deleted such info from his computer/history). When I tried to make him see the gravity of the situation and why we shouldn't be making the comms network public, he then got red and said "Everyone of ya gets pissed at this for no reason, 'F' it fine, let's bring it to the table then!" and we bought everyone to the table the day after (an emergency meeting).

At this meeting, first thing he does is put everyone on blast about it and complains that we're whining and complaining over nothing. In the end (and after a lot of yelling from both sides), he said "Fine, let's vote on it, but I have one stipulation - JUST ONE! - if he is voted out of comms, you guys are the ones doing it!" (basically telling us to clean his mistake for him...least in my view). Then it calmed after his girlfriend arrived and calmed him down and threw her opinion with us. It just ended with us postponing the vote for booting his friend out of comms by the end of the week.

Sorry for ranting again, but I'm not sure how to go about this anymore. There were rumors and ideas of voting him out, now there's definitely talk of it. While I really want to etch the phrase "common sense" or the word "intellect" onto a sledgehammer and treat him to a game of whack-a-mole (...I joke...ish), I remind myself of the time he took a knife for me, picked me up when I got left behind in the middle of a nowhere desert in Victorville at 2 in the morning, and when we got cornered by some ghetto-bangers and how we kept getting the other guy off of either of us and laid them straight flat on their asses. I know the paths/choices in front of me, but there is fog in front me (so to speak).

Anyways, figured I'd give you guys an update. Thanks for the support so far.