What is your definition of Leadership? Does the NCO creed mean anything to you?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 00:09:52 -0400

I am asking this due to the fact that I see more & more"leadership" only care about themselves& how they make themselves look instead of actually leading from the front, how do we expect our new soldiers to perform the way we did for our Senior NCOS acting the way some do now? "All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership, I will provide that leadership" what happened to that?

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Jun 13 at 2017 12:20 AM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 00:20:33 -0400

I believe that true leadership can only be obtained through sacrifice. Sacrifice of one's time, strength, patience. I was always a firm believer in the fact that when one puts on their first set of chevron that their role does a complete 180. When you are a lower enlisted soldier you work for your superiors; you are the work horses that get the job done and complete the mission. However, when you become an NCO you work for your subordinates. It is no longer specifically my job to make sure that the vehicle gets maintained or that a connex gets packed; no, it is my job to ensure that my soldiers are taken care of. Whatever they need I must be ready to make sure gets done. I used to like to tell my guys that I was promoted to SGT E5 a week before my 22nd birthday and that if I did my job right they would get promoted a week before their 21st. If I did my job best than I would one day have to stand at parade rest for them. I think that it goes directly alongside the idea that you should always leave something better than you found it. A leader does that for their soldiers, their unit, the army as a whole. CPL Sean "Chuck" Manczuk,SPC Private RallyPoint Member

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2017 6:27 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 06:27:34 -0400

You bring up a valid point, that it seems quite a lot of leaders are focused on themselves instead of providing quality leadership. I think the root of the issue is training and the actions of leadership at the top. When leadership training is cut, deferred or waived, it becomes a self inflicted wound (self inflicted in that it is an Army internally inflicted wound). It's like building a house with half a foundation. Eventually as you build up there are going to be problems. We need to fix the foundation.

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Jun 13 at 2017 8:53 AM

SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 08:53:11 -0400

The Creed dates back to the early NCO but it is only a piece of paper that is issued to you today like the new ARMY Basic Certificate, because half of the Sergeant do not follow the NCO CREED or live by the CREED they only wear the rank for power and control. Stand up 10 normal sergeants picked off the street and I bet not one of them could tell you the first line in the NCO CREED is. Then take 2 Non Commissioned Officers , and asked them two things about the CREED and I beat they could pull out their leadership book and show you they carry the NCO CREED with them. I don't I need to explain what LEADERSHIP is because that's what a leader is. After that any soldier will follow him or her in to combat.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 13 at 2017 9:59 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 09:59:30 -0400

I think you asking the question means that all hope is not lost? We each have to look in the mirror in the morning? I think you need to learn from their example of what NOT to do. A RP I can only help you. You need to be that outstanding leader, you will provide that leadership and the next wave of soldier will then know what quality is and be able to copy it for the next generation. Help those peers around you that you can fix by your example and know that there are people who are watching and will do what it right for you and your career.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2017 10:07 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 10:07:22 -0400

I agree with you that some leaders care more about themselves than taking care of soldiers which is an NCO's duty. It seems like once they get the stripes they forget where they came from and the advice and guidance they received from their leaders coming up. The more rank you get the more responsibility you get and so you have to learn how to take care of others as well as yourself. I believe in the NCO Creed and live by it, it's a great guide for great leaders.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2017 4:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 16:38:35 -0400

No school or creed can create a leader. All it can do is make something click that's already there. Real leaders are born. Managers are schooled.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2017 6:43 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 18:43:04 -0400

Don't worry it will get fixed with the new NCOER, NCOs will not. e selfish with the new system. (Sarcasm)

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Jun 13 at 2017 6:56 PM

SSgt Michael Cox — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 18:56:37 -0400

I think part of it is the mentality of kids these days. When I joined in 95' if you were told to go to the E-7s office you were like oh fuck what did I do. When I separated in 09' the kids would just walk into the E-7s office and be like whats up. I also had to counsel more than one brand new E-5 that he wasn't god now that he was an NCO.

Response by SFC Jeffrey VanBeekum made Jun 13 at 2017 7:00 PM

SFC Jeffrey VanBeekum — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 19:00:40 -0400

When I was promoted to Sgt, my PSG told me to make it easy on yourself, just remember your "Good" NCO's and the "Bad NCO"s and be like the good NCO"S and don't do things that made the bad NCO"S bad. You will find all the "Leadership"traits were part of the "Good " NCO"S characteristics.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2017 7:05 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 19:05:09 -0400

What are you guys talking about? The Army had been cultivating a culture of selfish individuals for a while now. We don't get rid of shitbags because people are too lazy to do paperwork and instead we move them to other companies or positions. Then those guys get promoted because they get to go to schools while the performers bust their ass picking up the slack. Most of the best leaders I have had in my career are not even in the Army anymore because they got tired of the bullshit. The best thing I can tell you is always be loyal to those around you, specially your soldiers.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Jun 13 at 2017 7:06 PM

SSG Robert Webster — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 19:06:50 -0400

After reading some of the responses to my comments, I think it is time to go over the Sergeant Morales story.

    The Sergeant Morales Club was established in 1973 by Lt. Gen. George S. Blanchard to promote the highest ideals of integrity, professionalism and leadership for the enlisted force serving in Europe.

The Sergeant Morales Story
    After completing a tour with a stateside division, Sergeant Morales was selected for an overseas tour in Germany. He was assigned to a unit that was part of USAREUR. Before coming to Germany, he had completed his high school education, continued to improve his command of the English language, and kept himself in top physical condition. When he arrived at his unit, Sergeant Morales immediately settled in and used his experience and leadership techniques. He began his duty day in the barracks when his squad awoke in the morning, participated with his soldiers in physical training, ate his meals in the unit dining facility, organized and supervised the routine housekeeping and work details, and prepared the squad for the day’s training requirements. During the course of his supervision, he was not reluctant to get his hands dirty.
    Sergeant Morales made sure that the members of his squad were trained in their military occupational specialties. In addition, he stressed the tactical, technical know-how that makes a better soldier. Race relations and equal opportunity were not new to him; he lived them.
    The M113 was new to Sergeant Morales, but maintenance was not. He readily applied his knowledge to the M113. He took a hard look at the accountability of his soldiers, as well as the accountability, cleanliness, and serviceability of individual and squad property.
    Sergeant Morales kept a leader’s notebook containing personal data on each soldier. In addition, he kept a soldier’s job book describing the proficiency of each soldier.
    Sergeant Morales counseled his soldiers monthly in personal and job-performance areas. The counseling records reflected complimentary as well as derogatory information. The information from the leader’s notebook, soldier’s job book, and counseling was used to guide his soldiers in promotion, proficiency, and career development, including their professional and academic education. He frequently held meetings with his squad, keeping members informed of what was going on. They discussed training, problems, and areas in which the squad performed well, and sought recommendations for improvement. The soldiers in Sergeant Morales’ squad knew exactly where they stood.
    The squad was united, including family members and friends, through social gatherings in the unit and community. He took pride that no squad member had ever been absent without leave. This was attributed to his personal concern for every member of his squad.
    Sergeant Morales was proud of the personnel in his squad, their outward appearance, and the way they proudly wore their uniforms. Conduct and bearing were of the highest standards at all times. He ensured newly assigned members were properly oriented, sponsored, processed, and introduced to all other squad members at the first opportunity. Rehabilitated soldiers in his squad were accepted and treated the same as newly assigned squad members. Sergeant Morales took additional steps in guidance counseling and training to help the rehabilitated soldiers become effective members of the team.
    The care Sergeant Morales showed for his soldiers resulted in the squad’s achievements during annual general inspections, Army Training and Evaluation Team evaluations, and maintenance evaluation team findings.
    Sergeant Morales led by example. He showed true concern for his soldiers and their family members. He took great pride in his soldiers, his unit, and his country. Sergeant Morales was a member of the NATO Team. He was a leader.

The Sergeant Morales Story Overview
    Sergeant Morales was a squad leader for 3 years in an engineer battalion of a U.S. Army division. He was the proverbial “98-pound weakling” and had not completed high school—only the GED program. Of Puerto Rican descent, he had only a limited command of English. Despite his physical limitations, lack of formal education, and minority-group status, he strove for and achieved the highest caliber of leadership.
    Sergeant Morales began his day by coming from his home to the barracks as his squad was awakening. They participated together in PT and work details as well as unit training. Sergeant Morales pitched right in with the disliked drudgery-type details. He led by example, particularly when it meant getting his hands dirty. In his pre-Army life, Sergeant Morales had some experience as a barber. At the end of the month, when money was scarce in his squad, he arranged for his Soldiers’ hair to be cut. He kept a pocket notebook with one page for each member of his squad devoted to personal data: background, education, family, MOS, problems, and so on. At least once a month, everyone in the squad and their spouses got together, socialized, and discussed problems at his quarters. During his 3-year tenure, no one in his squad went AWOL, which he attributed to knowing his Soldiers, keeping them informed, and watching out for their interests. His squad consistently placed first in company Army training tests. All of Sergeant Morales’s accomplishments were achieved despite the fact that his squad received misfits from other units for rehabilitation.
    While in the division, Sergeant Morales completed high school and the equivalent of 2 years of college. Sergeant Morales had a lot in his favor but no special advantages. He just worked at his job to the best of his ability. Sergeant Morales was an exemplary leader in whom his Soldiers believed.

Response by MSG Pat Colby made Jun 13 at 2017 7:29 PM

MSG Pat Colby — Tue, 13 Jun 2017 19:29:48 -0400

The Privates think the SGT is shamming when he goes to talk to the S-1. Little fucks don't know the SGT is making sure his Soldiers are taken care of.

The SGT's think the Platoon/Section SFC is fucking off when that NCO is actually busting his/her ass deflecting bullshit from his NCO Leaders so they can do their jobs.

The SFC thinks being a 1SG, SGM, and CSM are Gravy jobs. They have NO FUCKING idea what the job entails.

This cycle has spun since the Dawn and inception of Armies...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2017 12:06 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Jun 2017 00:06:06 -0400

The problem is 2 fold. The senior leadership is so focused on "No fail missions" that literally don't mean a damn thing that they forget to train train the Junior NCO's. This has been a systemic problem for so long that the senior guys are the guys that it started with. Instead of handing things to junior NCO's to be be able to learn from, it's handed to another senior NCO so it gets done "right" "the first time". The Second problem is with these senior NCO's focused on their on NCOER and promotions (cause if they don't no one else will) that the juniors have to fight to be able to be recommended to go to promotion boards. So the system as it is now is forcing people to focus on their own career. If you stop and start taking care of others the problem is then you become the SME on literally everything and get so buried in doing the right thing you get left behind. (My career is proof of that) if we go back to the mentality as a whole that your actions will write your NCOER and have senior leadership again as a whole start mentoring and guiding again this will start to fix this systemic problem.

Response by SSG Steven Stroup made Jun 24 at 2017 12:26 PM

SSG Steven Stroup — Sat, 24 Jun 2017 12:26:45 -0400

The true definition of leadership is the ability to influence other to willing follow. Very broad definition but anyone who has mastered leadership skills can use both democratic and directive styles effectively. However many new leaders struggle to master the directive style. Let's take a task we all have had to do. A trash can needs to be emptied and no body will just empty it so we tell someone. The new leader will say "Get that trash out of here!' This sometimes will make the person he told feel belittled or being punished. But if he would of said "See that trash? Make it disappear." This make them feel as if the task has a purpose and is not a punishment.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Kayes made Jun 30 at 2017 12:11 AM

SSG Jeffrey Kayes — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 00:11:38 -0400

They took away leadership potential when they took away the NCOs permission to be a leader.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2017 12:18 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Jul 2017 00:18:31 -0400

My definition of leadership:
Telling those who are subordinate to you to do the things necessary for completion of the mission.
Teaching them how to do those things.
Showing them, by doing those things yourself, that those things CAN be done and that you do not feel above doing them yourself.

It doesn't matter if it's firing a TOW missile, humping an 80 pound ruck for 25 miles, fixing a Humvee or writing an Intel report. You tell them to do it, you show them how to do it, you do it yourself, and you make sure no one fucks with your Soldiers while they are doing the damned job.
That's leadership.

As far as the NCO Creed, it embodies many of the things an NCO needs to take to heart in order to do the job. If you follow the Creed, REALLY follow the Creed, then you as an NCO will be on the right side of things no matter what the situation. I believe that, because I kept to the Creed for an entire career and it served me well no matter the circumstance.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Jul 18 at 2017 3:47 AM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Tue, 18 Jul 2017 03:47:02 -0400

Absolutely, welfare of your Soldiers does not mean being their friend, it means doing everything you can to ensure they are prepared for the challenges they will face, accomplishing the mission does not mean neglecting safety, or making things Harder then they need to be, just to get the job done, Know your Job, and the equipment you are using so you can teach and mentor your subordinates properly, remember, you WANT your subordinates to step up and take initiative and learn how to do your job, understand mistakes will be made, but ensure the mistakes are low impact, and try not to lose your temper, even mistakes can be learning opportunities for both the Soldiers and yourself, Supervise, but do not be afraid to get dirty, sometime Soldiers learn by watching then doing, Always be the first to arrive, and the last to leave - Soldiers usually will bring their personal problems before or after work hours in order to not be ashamed in front of their peers, Be respectful of your subordinates, respect is a two way street, if you continually disrespect your soldiers, they will respect your rank, but not the person wearing it. the most important thing I can think of is this - treat your soldiers equally, we all will experience good troops and sub par troops - do not always put your sub par troops on details, especially if they are trying, nothing will destroy cohesion like a leader perceived to have favorites.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jul 18 at 2017 11:06 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Tue, 18 Jul 2017 23:06:00 -0400

Well, let me offer an alternative perspective. When you start massive cuts to our population, and loudly encourage everyone to set themselves ahead of their peers to avoid the cuts, you're going to foster a cut throat "me vs them" mentality.
It's going to be hard not to be selfish when your reward for NOT taking care of yourself is going to be the door... This is the climate we created.
Be glad the purge is over, but most of the leadership grew up during the military Hunger Games of the draw down.

Response by CH (LTC) Robert Leroe made Jul 19 at 2017 9:28 AM

CH (LTC) Robert Leroe — Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:28:28 -0400

Good leadership is inspiring followership.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Jun 8 at 2019 4:07 PM

SFC Don Ward — Sat, 08 Jun 2019 16:07:47 -0400

You think leaders are focused on themselves? Wait until this “merit based” promotion system kicks in. If we constantly have to be the best and hell with everyone and everything else.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2019 10:54 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Jun 2019 10:54:35 -0400

Well this is what happens when you promote based off of PT, and not promoting people based off of how knowledgeable they are of their MOS, what types of person they are in their section, and most importantly how well they can lead even at junior enlisted rank.

Response by SSG Jerel Parker made Jun 9 at 2019 10:02 PM

SSG Jerel Parker — Sun, 09 Jun 2019 22:02:04 -0400

Where is the Army I devoted a my career to? All I hear is a lot of negative responses to problems in the ranks that can be solved by NCO's doing their jobs. My squad came first, my platoon came first, and my section came first. The backbone of the service is it's soldiers doing the best they can at their jobs, and the NCO's holding them to task, and training them if needed. All soldiers are trained their soldiering skills, and MOS's in Boot Camp, and MOS training, so when you get them they have the basic skills of a soldier, then the NCO's hone them into a finely tuned component of the outfit they are assigned to. So, if NCO's falter in their task to make that unit the best it can be, then they do not deserve those stripes. Awards and decorations received by the NCO for a job well done, should be looked at, as acknowledgement to the job they are doing, and his/her soldiers should be rewarded accordingly to how well he is training them. If that is falling by the wayside because the modern day Army is too busy to acknowledge it's soldiers then we really have lost our way in the world. The United States Army never took a backseat to anyone in the World, and now we have lost our way because we can't train and take care of our soldiers? What next. My soldiers always came first in my job as an NCO, and I don't know how many Thanksgivings and Christmases I had with my soldiers, and how many times we went on vacations together when we got the time off. I loved my soldiers, and would have gladly given up my life for any of them. Are the NCO's so conceited today that they can't say the same thing? This Army needs to regroup and re-evaluate where we stand, and how important are our soldiers with regard to paying more for technology instead of training. We need to get back to being proud of ou soldiers and their accomplishments, not giving out blank rewards and decorations for NCO"s that expect recognition for nothing. Make soldiers proud to respect NCO's that do their jobs right. Make the Army and America strong and respectable again.