What is your opinion of cop watching?

2015-01-02T19:59:17-05:00

Is this necessary in our society, especially after the Michael Brown and Eric Garner deaths? Or are these folks taking it too far?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/02/texas-gun-nuts-police-the-police-with-a-black-panthers-tactic.html

Texas Gun Slingers Police the Police—With a Black Panthers Tactic

In Arlington, Texas, armed open-carry activists are challenging cops as they do their jobs, in escalating confrontations.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Jan 2 at 2015 8:20 PM

2015-01-02T20:20:46-05:00

Effing idiots...all is well and good until one of them gets in the way and they get injured and now what to sue the police.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2015 8:27 PM

2015-01-02T20:27:12-05:00

In my opinion Sir, as soon as it begins to interfere with the officer's duties it crosses a line. In the article it says one of these fine gentlemen interfered with a traffic stop. Too far.

Response by PO3 Jeff Lane made Jan 2 at 2015 8:24 PM

2015-01-02T20:24:07-05:00

Being a police officer for 25 years and knowing no police officer wants to harm anyone I don't think there is a need for cop watchers, we police our own. Police watchers have been and always will be there. Its the protesters that take it to far and have no clue what they are protesting for. People seem to care less what the evidence shows and just argue to argue and get their faces on the tv. Is there a real answer?

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Jan 2 at 2015 8:29 PM

2015-01-02T20:29:58-05:00

Idiots doing idiot things. That picture is fantastic. The draw-stroke on the thigh holster will be messy, his finger gesture is a threat.

Look. Accountability is important, body cameras are a great idea. Filming Police during their duties can be done respectfully and non-confrontation-ally. Carrying a weapon for defense of self and others when done lawfully and non-threateningly are fantastic.

A person habitually following another person while openly armed and filming them? That's a threat. Doesn't matter who the parties are.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2015 8:39 PM

2015-01-02T20:39:03-05:00

The supreme court has ruled that recording law enforcement officers in the line of duty is not against the law. Be polite and professional and stay out of the line of fire. I understand what they are doing, I just don't agree with their tactics.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jan 2 at 2015 9:10 PM

2015-01-02T21:10:27-05:00

I don't have a problem with citizens watching the police as long as they don't get in the way of the Police doing their jobs.

Not sure of the need to carry a weapon in a drop holster and a belt holster as well...I assume the picture is of a law enforcement or military member based on the holsters.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jan 2 at 2015 10:42 PM

2015-01-02T22:42:07-05:00

Like many other things, if the cop is doing what they are suppose to be doing and the person filming isn't interfering then the cop has nothing to worry about. Unfortunately, many of the videos I have seen are of cops clearly over stepping the law or just as bad, completely ignorant of the law.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Jan 2 at 2015 11:27 PM

2015-01-02T23:27:06-05:00

Another group spoiling for a fight.

Why would you for example interfere with/warn motorists who are headed into a DUI checkpoint that they are having one? Great news, now they can drive another direction and kill a family of 6. Makes perfect sense.

Why would a group interfere with the police as they are responding to a 911 call. Newsflash idiots, someone needs help, and you are interfering.

Should bad cops be held accountable? Yes.

For sure, what we do not need are police forces that rather than arresting bad guys, send them notes asking them to surrender, if they don't mind...

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Jan 3 at 2015 2:57 AM

2015-01-03T02:57:59-05:00

Cop watching is a legal activity which is currently a fad that seems to attract the bored and those who have nothing constructive to do. In time most of these people will find another stylish fad to make them feel like they have a purpose. The question of the moment seems to be will it be before or after some idiot does something stupid with a gun and gets shot? Texas does not allow open carry of handguns with the exception of some black powder models. So if you show up being aggressive and flaunting a revolver on your hip you can count on an active and vigorous response. Even after they determine that the weapon is legal (whether it be long gun or black powder revolver) they are still going to be highly focused on someone acting up while carrying a firearm. If I were on a jury deciding on an "obstruction" charge I would almost certainly side with the officer. If an officer were to be wounded or (God forbid) killed because of their activities, I'm sure they would face charges of aiding and abetting at the least. If these guys are serious about making a difference, leave the guns at home and schedule ride-alongs through the Department. Set some ground rules that will keep everyone safe.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 6:42 AM

2015-01-03T06:42:18-05:00

It's all fine and well to have checks and balances in the law enforcement community. However, I'm pretty sure anyone would be angry if their family member was killed by a drunk driver, or a stray bullet, or a robbery. And then what? Handle it yourself? We have laws and law enforcement officers for a reason. And yes, just like not everyone in uniform served/is serving honorably, the folks in blue have the same issues. We should support our LEOs, not berate them as a group for a mistake made by an individual.

Response by PO2 James Hayes made Jan 3 at 2015 10:40 AM

2015-01-03T10:40:15-05:00

The actions of few should not speak for all. I'm not going to form my opinion of all black people from Brown and Garner same as I am not going to form an opinion of Al law enforcement from the actions of a few. What I do know is cops have a lot to deal with and I have no sympathy for a criminal. My heart bleeds for the harming of the innocent, cop or civilian.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 10:49 AM

2015-01-03T10:49:37-05:00

I would say that they have to the right to do that but they are going a bit overboard. If I were a cop I would just go and talk to them and see what's going on. I didn't have an issue with anyone watching as long as they didn't get in the way. There are some questionable cops outhere. The issue is that they get a lot of the attention.

Response by SGT Justin Singleton made Jan 3 at 2015 11:01 AM

2015-01-03T11:01:37-05:00

I open carry. I did have a CCW, but I let it expire (due to money reasons), so if I go outside of the house (I live in a very, very rough neighborhood) to walk with my wife, I open carry. I am a big fan of open carry.

That said, provoking the police in this fashion seems to be going a bit too far. I have no problem filming the police during an arrest, but following them around? Borderline stalking.

I have no problem with the citizens being armed and flexing their rights...that is what I fought for.

Response by PO1 Chris Crawley made Jan 3 at 2015 11:02 AM

2015-01-03T11:02:39-05:00

I know the guys in Open Carry Tarrant County in as much as I have gone to a couple of their events and am on their Facebook page. Their open-carry message is good, even if they take it to extremes at times.
Their cop-watching is just stupidity. Cops have a hard enough time doing their job without the harassment.

Response by SGT Justin Singleton made Jan 3 at 2015 11:04 AM

2015-01-03T11:04:33-05:00

I should add, when I was in the Ohio ANG, I trained with the local sheriff's office. We were taught riot control, etc., but one deputy also taught us how to continue to beat a man who is already submissive (with examples from his career). He said that all you have to do is keep yelling "Stop resisting, stop resisting!" and the crowds around will assume the individual is still resisting. He gave us examples of doing this because he didn't like the guy who was already handcuffed.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Jan 3 at 2015 11:43 AM

2015-01-03T11:43:22-05:00

Cop Watching based upon what is in the article.
- Possibly a good idea but terrible execution.
- If civilians watch cops and even video tape without interfering with a policeman's conducting of his job then no problem.
- If civilians interfere with a policeman doing his/her job, initiate incidents for social media effect, and/or carry weapons into an incident that is already potentially dangerous for everyone including the police then how is that a good idea?
- Goes to difference between right and recommended. Just because a person has a right to open carry does not mean that it is recommended that they do so while cop watching.
- There might be better COAs to achieve the effect that this group is trying to create without unneccesarily escalating an incident or increasing the risk and therefore the safety of all.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 11:56 AM

2015-01-03T11:56:28-05:00

Unfortunate that this has become a trust issue.

Heck in California, the number of UAVs that are watching Police is out of control.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Jan 3 at 2015 2:11 PM

2015-01-03T14:11:04-05:00

I am not against law abiding citizens carry firearms. I am totally against police watching. We as a society must accept the majority of police are protecting us, not out to hurt us. If you are not committing an act of criminality, you typically have nothing to worry about with the police. If you are contacted, comply. If the police are wrong, report the act to internal affairs or if you believe it is an act which violated your civil rights to the United States Attorney's Office or the FBI.

Law enforcement officers have enough issues to deal with without adding armed civilians who are monitoring their action. Stop the madness.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 5:17 PM

2015-01-03T17:17:08-05:00

Our society has more respect for criminals and dogs than law enforcement...

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Jan 3 at 2015 6:38 PM

2015-01-03T18:38:44-05:00

Since main stream media has failed at every level to maintain accountability by asking hard questions and presenting on researched facts, and using the most credible sources. It is up to the people to keep its civil servants accountable, and transparent. For years communities cried and said these things were being done, and the world would not listen, now the eye of the world is in everyone's pocket, and it is becoming more and more difficult to say that this things are not happening.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Jan 4 at 2015 12:43 AM

2015-01-04T00:43:59-05:00

I'm going with Other, because I don't plan to read the article -- not especially after there's a picture of some dipshit with two pistols.

I'm probably going to earn myself a downvote or two for this -- but yeah. I think it's necessary. I don't think you need to be armed, and certainly the possibly-misleading image of a guy with his hand near one of his two sidearms indicates that's what this is about. With the rise of social media sites like Vine, Vimeo, and YouTube, and with the profileration of high-quality cameras on smart phones, quad-copters, and even things like GoPros, these are things that people should be using -- not firearms.

How many times have we seen eyewitness video of an overzealous police officer wailing on someone they've already got on the ground? Without mentioning specifics, I could rattle off six high-profile incidents of alleged police brutality that almost certainly might disappear had it not been for some bystander with their camera. I'm going to be honest -- I have a lot of close friends who are cops, I know some RP members are cops, and none of that dissuades me. I feel like the culture of closing ranks is why a lot of people have issues with trusting the police. You guys can say "we police our own" and that's fine -- having one more set of eyeballs shouldn't be an issue then, right? Just like I've been told "If you aren't doing anything illegal you have nothing to fear"? Right back atcha officer.

I don't buy into that bullshit line about "not doing anything illegal" if/then, by the way.

Response by MSG Mitch Dowler made Jan 4 at 2015 4:46 PM

2015-01-04T16:46:21-05:00

This is a very few folks who have a unique way of protecting civil rights by the free exercise thereof. They will soon tire and move on to a new hobby. It is those devolving idiots that are actually anti-police that pillage businesses and threaten the lives of police that all of us need to watch.

Response by SGT Charles Vernier made Jan 4 at 2015 6:36 PM

2015-01-04T18:36:18-05:00

I think you hit the nail on the head CPT Richard Porter. It's one thing to film something as an independent witness. However, following officers around or causing them to respond then attempting to provoke a confrontation is entirely different. Not only is it irresponsible in the fact that it makes gun owners look like nut jobs, it is also taking up the officers' time (they might not have anything else pending at that moment, but what if they do?)

Response by MSgt Rob Weston made Jan 5 at 2015 2:22 AM

2015-01-05T02:22:53-05:00

I believe the Media blew things way out of proportion in these cases in the first place by stating speculation as fact. It also didn't help that national leaders have their personal opinions as if it was a national stance on the subjects... Like with everything else, it is the 1% that gives a bad name to the other 99% doing their job.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Jan 5 at 2015 1:55 PM

2015-01-05T13:55:52-05:00

Cop watching in my opinion is unnecessary and if people would spend half the time they use watching the police in doing something productive in society the world may be a better place.

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Jan 5 at 2015 9:10 PM

2015-01-05T21:10:19-05:00

I think this can be dangerous if not handled properly. Sure, the police aren't perfect, but they have the internal investigators and I think holding them accountable is essential to good governance.

Having a civilian watchdog organization is good in my book too, but once you start escalating it then, I have issues with that. Back in 2005 when Hummers were popular, lots of environmentalists watchdog groups would burn or destroy dealerships and the vehicles. They rationalized their actions.

I am worried that someones' life is at risk when those watchdog's not sanctioned by a government entity (hence no training, standards, etc) may think themselves above the law.

I find nothing wrong with filming cops though, and actually believe that each cop should have a recorded and a mini video camera on at all times. It monitors their actions, keeps them accountable, and if something unfortunate like Michael Brown comes up, the truth will be seen.

Response by PFC Eric Minchey made Jan 5 at 2015 9:21 PM

2015-01-05T21:21:37-05:00

http://www.wecopwatch.org/police-cameras-quick-fix-for-police-misconduct-or-counter-surveillance-tool/

More Copwatchers! Less Cops w Cameras! / WeCopwatch

Police Cameras- Quick Fix for Police Misconduct, or Counter- Surveillance Tool? by Rachel Lederman, Chapter President National Lawyers Guild – S.F. Bay Area & Jacob Crawford, Legal Worker & Copwatcher “S.F. officers scandal shows need for wearable video cameras,” proclaimed a March 1 Chronicle editorial on the recent indictments of SFPD officers for drug dealing, …

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2015 9:42 PM

2015-01-05T21:42:50-05:00

While I do believe there is a problem within many police forces, this is a disaster waiting to happen. Someone is going to get killed and it will be the fault of these “activist” for intentionally creating a volatile situation.
I do believe in police oversight and I think the body-cams are the way to go.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Jan 5 at 2015 9:51 PM

2015-01-05T21:51:41-05:00

Bad cops are few and far between. If you notice, every guy in the news shot by a cop was either committing a crime or had numerous arrests in the past.

There are a few bad shoots but how come the media doesn't say anything about the Gilbert Collars of the world? Or the numerous white people shot or attacked (knockout game) by black individuals.
Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying that blacks are criminals any more than anybody else. I am saying that this whole race war is being fueled by a biased, inaccurate media.
Police do a necessary job and most do it properly. The hate mongers and media need to go away.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2015 11:10 PM

2015-01-05T23:10:06-05:00

If they want to go watch cops all day, that's fine. Pull up a lounge chair, eat some popcorn, hold up your little protest signs. What's not cool is this:

"Chasing leads from police scanners, members of OCTC and a local faction known as Cop Block—another loosely organized group of anti-law enforcement libertarian-leaners—have been gathering in the approach to DUI checkpoints and speed traps to warn motorists of the police presence, responding in real time with cops to 911 calls, making impromptu stops to film strangers’ traffic violations, all while trolling the police they observe."

Sounds like many of them are attention-seekers, hoping to make the next viral video, and at the least causing obstruction.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 5 at 2015 11:50 PM

2015-01-05T23:50:53-05:00

Someone is going to die sooner or later. Someone is going to get stupid; all a police officer needs is a perception their life and safety is in danger and they are legally within their authority to dispatch lethal force on an individual. Also, showing up to traffic stops is stupid and unsafe. It is also very distracting to the police officer. Two most dangerous incidents a police officer can answer a call to is a traffic stop and a domestic and so these "cop watchers" want to show up. It is one thing to show up and film at a distance but to show up, invade the police officer's space and to run their mouth with displaying aggression is interfering with a public duty.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2015 2:28 AM

2015-01-06T02:28:54-05:00

Cops police their own. Let them be. Although there are bad apples in every bunch the two guys you mentioned before were two guys that broke the law. However I do not agree so much about the Eric garner thing because the police did go too far. Mike brown. Justice served. I will say this little fact for you. States with open carry laws or pro gun states have far less crime than anti gun states and liberal states. Facts are facts regardless of how much people don't like them.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2015 8:49 AM

2015-01-06T08:49:31-05:00

The cop watchers are attention seeking media whores(sorry but they tick me off) looking for an excuse to scapegoat good officers doing their jobs. Even with the number of high profile incidents, it's still only a very small fraction and to label all police officers as bad is wrong. They put their lives on the line for the public safety every day, and go to work not knowing if it will be their last day or not. The least we can do is stay the hell out of their way and let them do their jobs.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2015 10:29 AM

2015-01-06T10:29:08-05:00

Several points - the photo is misleading. The article to which this thread seems to be referring can be found below. In Texas it is lawful to openly carry a long-arm. To carry openly as depicted in the photo is illegal. The guy in the article was legally, openly, carrying a long-arm and an antique side-arm which is also legal. Given the increasingly documented militarization of different law enforcement (and some non-police gov't agencies) I think it is highly appropriate for us, as citizens, to assert our rights.

Some have said it is threatening behavior to openly carry a long- or side-arm. My response is that doing so legally is not threatening. It is up to the individual officer to use his discretion regarding whether or not someone is carrying their long-arm in a threatening manner (generally, if it's slung over a shoulder or across the back you're good), and then to disarm the person in accordance with the law.

Are gun owners who exercise their right to carry a weapon openly where legal "idiots?" Of course everyone has their opinion, but my question is this: "Is a right that is not exercised really a right?" Put another way "A right not exercised is a right lost."

Texas Open Carry Advocates Are Using a Black Panthers Tactic as They Go ‘Cop-Watching’

Politics makes strange bedfellows — and so does political resistance. Texas open carry advocates are taking a page out of the Black Panthers' playbook as "cop watchers" follow police officers around wielding cameras — and guns. As the Daily Beast reported, libertarian-leaning open carry advocates...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2015 10:44 AM

2015-01-06T10:44:49-05:00

They are idiots

Response by PFC Jim Mills made Jan 6 at 2015 11:41 AM

2015-01-06T11:41:14-05:00

Unfortunately in today's society everyone has to watch everyone and everyone has to watch what there doing! I believe there are wonderful law enforcement folks out their but i can tell you there are some very crooked law enforcement aswell as corrupt da,s and judges

Response by SSG Dwight Amey MSA, MSL, BS, AS made Jan 6 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-01-06T12:54:30-05:00

Situational based. One problem we have in our society is putting a broad stroke on "all" Americans based off very specific situations. I love our police officers. I also realize that the days of watching them put dogs on civil rights protestors are mostly over. What then? Am I supposed to hate all because of a few? That is not fair or very respectful for the millions who do the right thing or have a good heart. Unfortunately, political groups like the NRA takes the issue and makes it something it is not to get their agenda across, (in my opinion) as well as many minority groups.

My Point:

Our nation is governed by laws and not emotions on the basis that we are all created equal. This has not always been the case. Who will disagree with me that we are better off as a whole than we were in 1785?

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Jan 15 at 2015 12:53 AM

2015-01-15T00:53:06-05:00

Senseless, white cop shoots black man, riots, black man kills two white cops, let's just try to move on. As a former officer I know some calls are split second and maybe not always correct, but what about the wrong call that costs others. Not all cops are good guys and we all know that, but not all are bad either. Murder is wrong and needs full punishment, but why push it to the point of cop against cop, or black against white. No one wants to lose a friend or family member for any reason, but we are human and we do make mistakes. Let us not make our whole society pay for the mistakes of a few.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2015 4:29 AM

2015-05-18T04:29:58-04:00

It's necessary but not because of the Michael Brown or Eric Garner deaths.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2015 5:56 AM

2015-05-18T05:56:59-04:00

I know a guy who participates in the cop watching down in Arlington, Texas. His group all open carry rifles while doing it. He told me it is to "raise awareness." The problem is, is that what I see is a group of people who are just scaring the crap out of the everyday citizen. How does carrying a gun automatically raise awareness? That's like dumping ice water on your head, and claiming it raised awareness (without information being displayed, there is no potential for learning, thus no awareness is raised).

Also, they video tape police officers while doing this. To me, walking up to a cop while you have a gun seems like an excellent way to get shot. Having the gun seems to only make the officer more nervous while dealing with the situation at hand.

The Arlington police sop is to call for back up anytime this group shows up. And I don't blame them.

Also, these people are not overly well versed in gun safety. The guy I know keeps his AR-15 red and on semi all the time. He also puts it in the trunk of his car, while loaded on semi, and when he showed me, it was pointed at his daughters car seat.

Nothing about this raises awareness, nor is conducive to public order (in terms of showing up to traffic stops with a gun).

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Nov 10 at 2015 9:23 AM

2015-11-10T09:23:59-05:00

It's necessary, not because of the recent police shootings, but because it's our responsibility as citizens of a Democracy to police those in power.

Police officers are human, they have a stressful job... a CALLING... I often say. I believe 99% of them are doing it for the right reasons, but even my friend a retired Fort Worth Police officer admits that he became a "not so nice guy" when he put on the uniform.

I'm all in favor of putting cameras on and around police, a local Chief of police recently said "Every chief should WANT as much video as possible, so they can see what happened, if nothing else for training feedback."

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Nov 25 at 2015 10:34 AM

2015-11-25T10:34:38-05:00

It's your right to cop watch. That said, when people instigate and act badly to test the cops reactions and try to catch them messing up, things can go horribly bad. NOBODY wins.

The public wants to feel safe, but then the police are getting afraid to do their jobs for fear of losing them. So the public is less safe now thanks to their own actions. You wouldn't see near as many incidents of alleged police brutality if the public didn't constantly make their job as difficult as possible.

Consider the Michael Brown incident where thug Michael, who just robbed a convenience store, is approached by Officer Darren Wilson, because Brown fits the description of the robber. Wilson calls him over and Brown attacks Officer Darren Wilson. I don't remember if Wilson has just stepped out of his car, or if Brown reached through the open window, but Brown may have pushed Wilson back into the squad car. Regardless, Brown and Wilson were struggling with each other in the car and Brown was reaching trying to take Officer Darren Wilson's gun from him. Shots fire. Brown then runs away, turns and charges Officer Wilson. Wilson, RIGHTLY, defended himself. Excessive use of force? The thug just tried to grab his gun and it went off in the car! Brown is much bigger and is coming at him again?!! I would have done the same thing. If any of you think that that punk's life is worth more than your own, you're a self-loathing moron.

To the black community's utmost SHAME, Wilson lost his career and had threats on his life FROM IDIOTS who were mad at him... and for what? For doing his job?!! RACEBAITING LOSERS from around the country went to Ferguson and burned the town down. WTF Al Sharpton? As with so many things, the truth was irrelevant. Witnesses came forward and gave false testimony trying to blame Wilson for stalking Brown, and intentionally murdering him. An entire meme, "Hands up Don't Shoot" was spread and we saw rioting go down in other cities. Were those who gave false testimony charged and held responsible? Call it "black privilege" if you will. The press never really followed up to see if those who gave false testimony were held accountable.

In the end, the truth exonerated Officer Wilson, but the damage was done. Wilson will never have a career in law enforcement and he was punished for doing his job. Blue lives matter just as much as black lives!