what regulation covers being forced to spend money ?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 19:44:56 -0400

so our new battalion sm is basically forcing us to spend money on getting certain things sewn on our gear and we face getting in trouble if we don't have it the way he does. i just want to know what regulation covers that, i've been searching but can't find one.

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 9 at 2021 7:54 PM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 19:54:21 -0400

You are not providing much in the way of specifics. So I won't offer an opinion.

But I will say this... That is one of the problems with the Army's approach to uniforms. You soldiers have more varieties of gee-gaws, doo-dads and hats than the ladies at the Kentucky Derby.

Marine's don't have near the problem. Although the disease is catching with badges.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 7:56 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 19:56:52 -0400

I would hinge on AR 670-1 regarding the uniform as it is, and see if the SM is directing alterations outside of 670-1 (which is probably unlikely). It's not focused on "spending" per say but in the likely event alterations are outside of 670-1 could stop it dead in it's tracks if these ideas are solely the SM's.

This is probably a losing battle, and cost verses reward needs to be considered.

No one is going to force you to spend any money that doesn't have a commanding officer's signature on it, or at least comes from finance.

So no, you are not going to find a regulation that allows a SM to force you to spend money on uniform alterations.

What you are going to find is the AR 670-1 has a left and right limit of what uniform standards are. The SM probably has picked one, and simply put out a much narrow left and right limit of AR 670-1.

There is nothing stopping you from buying a thread and needle and putting them on yourself.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 8:01 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 20:01:55 -0400

I'm assuming the CSM wants people to sew name, last 4 and blood type on their gear. Or something equally pointless.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 9 at 2021 8:02 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 20:02:56 -0400

No one is requiring you to spend YOUR money on uniform items. They are asking you to use your annual clothing allowance. Which is appropriate.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 8:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 20:07:01 -0400

It could possibly be in your Division Blue Book as well. That’s where I find what is set for us at 2ID as far as setting up our gear to include what to have on our cat eyes. 4 ID had us put the patch on our Kevlar.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 8:09 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 20:09:40 -0400

SPC Harrison, here's a leadership counseling approach I see coming into the Cross Hairs

You are approaching this (from my perception) that the Army somehow is obligated to pay you to conduct yourself in a professional and responsible manner.

There is no regulation that says the army has to pay your laundry services, or detergent, or anything regarding uniform up keep. So by the logic you present you could come into work every day having never cleaned your uniform. The army also isn't providing you transportation services to get to and from work once you start living off post.

When I was a SPC I personally had to have my name sewn on my gortex jacked on the sleeve and same with elastic band on my ACH to have my name. These were both out of pocket. It never occurred to me to push back in regard to the costs.

It's usually around this time when I observe such a question by a SPC pushing back on a SM outside my office I close my door.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 8:28 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 20:28:14 -0400

When you say gear, I’m guessing he wants nametapes and “cat eyes” in accordance with SOP? Either way, the Army gives you a clothing allowance for uniforms/maintenance. Not sure this is the hill to die on. Grab a needle and thread and get to stitchin’. He’s not ordering you to spend your hard-earned money. He’s requiring the units get in compliance with unit SOP. Join thr team, it’s not that bad my friend.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 8:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 20:38:37 -0400

Fort Bragg was the only place they made us sew names and identifiers on our uniforms and equipment. I usually just go ahead and spend my money doing so, save the receipts and then claim it on taxes the following year on work related expenses.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 8:46 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 20:46:51 -0400

You do get a clothing allowance each year for things like this...what have you been doing with yours?

Also, realize that there are out of pocket costs that soldiers pay even when it's outside the month when you get your annual clothing allowance. In fact, female servicemembers pay more out of pocket costs for uniform items than male servicemembers, per the 52-page report, released Thursday by the Government Accountability Office in February 2021.

"The report finds, among other things, that the costs of essentials not included in the allowance calculations are significantly higher for women than men in every service; that female officers have been disproportionately burdened by numerous uniform changes over the past decades requiring the purchase of new items; and that out-of-pocket uniform costs for enlisted women can add up to $8,000 or more over a career, while some men report pocketing allowance overages."

So if you think you're paying a lot of out of pocket costs for uniforms, try being a female servicemember. I didn't even realize how bad it was until I found this.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/02/25/yes-there-pink-tax-womens-military-uniforms-report-finds.html

I also found this article: https://www.militarytimes.com/pay-benefits/2020/06/23/military-families-lose-about-5000-out-of-pocket-for-each-pcs-move-survey-finds/

Out of pocket expenses for military families every PCS:

"Military families are losing an average of $5,000 in out-of-pocket expenses each time they move, according to survey data just released by a national nonprofit organization.

That includes an average of $1,913 in moving expenses that aren’t reimbursed by the military, and an average of $2,920 over and above claims paid for loss and damage to their belongings, according to the Military Family Advisory Network survey data released Tuesday. More than two-thirds of those who moved to a new duty station within the past three years experienced loss or damage in their most recent move."

You being told that the unit standard is to have name tapes sewn onto uniforms or other things sewn on isn't against regulation.

I'm wondering - though - does anyone know if something like this still exists?

https://www.army.mil/article/97352/sewing_is_free_to_soldiers

It's from 2013 - I can't tell if it's still in existence at JBLM or if any other QM units do this. That seems pretty convenient actually.

Yes, There Is a 'Pink Tax' on Women's Military Uniforms, Report Finds

Out-of-pocket uniforms costs for enlisted women can add up to $8,000 or more over a career, the report found.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Sep 9 at 2021 9:10 PM

SSG Brian G. — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:10:44 -0400

There is no regulation. He cannot force you to spend money. However he can require that the alterations be made. Now whether you pay for them or do them by hand, they are still required, still a legal order and ... last I checked, you get a clothing allowance each year and this falls under things like that.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Sep 9 at 2021 9:31 PM

SGT Robert Wager — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:31:49 -0400

So, this is the hill you want to die on? You will lose. The loss will be huge, epic, spectacular… I only wish I were there to witness it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 9:32 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:32:44 -0400

Clothing Allowance. For uniforms, uniform items and alterations for uniforms. And for gear, if need be. You're not being forced. You've been directed. You've been ordered. If you feel this strongly that this is not right, then contact IG and ask them if this is a violation. Hell, call JAG and ask them if this is a violation. Don't be surprised if they both say NO.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2021 10:46 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:46:50 -0400

let me just make this clear, its nothing to do with uniforms, we're getting told to get certain things sewn on to issued gear from CIF and if its not done we could possibly get in trouble, all im trying to do is find a regulation on this i dont need any lectures (no disrespect but a lot of you higher ranking people tend to twist words up and not actually take time out to understand what is being asked on here)

Response by PFC Andrew "Tommy" M. made Sep 10 at 2021 1:38 AM

PFC Andrew "Tommy" M. — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 01:38:17 -0400

Sew it on yourself

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Sep 10 at 2021 7:56 AM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 07:56:36 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member Give an exact example of what your CSM is "requiring" you to get sewn on your gear. If you do that we would be able to give you better answers. Brother you should pick what battles are really worth fighting.

Also, everyone that is saying that Clothing Allowance is for this. Clothing Allowance is for replacing clothing bag items, not sewing extra stuff that units want on uniforms/equipment.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2021 8:58 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:58:12 -0400

Your follow up posts say things like "let me just make this clear" but you clarified nothing.
So, I'll just assume you're talking about name/rank on camo band, helmet cover, gortex jacket, IOTV, etc. The usual stuff that happens everywhere in the Army every day.

You also state, "clothing allowance shouldn't be spent on getting items from cif sewn on".
If we are talking about anything form CIF that is worn on the Soldier while in uniform, then it is subject to AR 670-1 and any SOP, like the 82nd ABN DIV PAM 600-2 or similar publication, so yeah, you can expect to spend about $20 of your annual $444.53 on some sewing for that.

You also state, "so yea not the answer i was looking for". We get that a lot here, Soldiers looking for the answer they want to hear, rather than the right one,

Especially when a Soldier asks something like, "what regulation covers being forced to spend money?"
Understand, when folks with 10-30 years in the Army hear a question like that, the first thing that comes to mind is every time they saw a Soldier easily spend $50-$80 weekly on energy drinks, smokes and dip, etc, and then looking for a regulatory way to skate out of paying $20 for sewing.

Finally, "all im trying to do is find a regulation on this" and "i dont need any lectures".
Well, when you ask about being "forced to spend money", you're setting yourself up for a lecture. Sewing is a cost of doing business in the Army, a pretty low cost, all things considered.

That aside, the regs start with AR 600-20, or what we like to call "your boss tells you what to do".
The order is legal, moral and ethical. And it's backed up by AR and DA PAM 670-1 and anything that adds to that, like your current DIV and/or BDE SOP.

Lastly, I implore you to see the bigger picture here. If you decide to stick around, you will soon be an NCO, and you will have your own Soldiers frequently asking you, "Why do I have to do something I don't want to do or is inconvenient for me? Surely there is some kind of regulation that says I don't have to?"
And it will be your responsibility to give them the right answer, which is almost never the answer they were looking for.
Pro tip: if you show them how to find the answer instead of just giving them the answer, you will make them better Soldiers faster.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2021 10:12 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:12:38 -0400

You got 2 choices, you can either get your stuff sewn on without any issues or disobey a direct order that was given from a Field Grade Officer. Your going to lose this fight and at the end of the day, you will comply to your BCs Uniform Standards. Lead by Example

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Sep 10 at 2021 4:37 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:37:55 -0400

Jesus wept and you are an NCO.WTF you never had to palletize your gear for deployments, or drop rucks/gear to move out for an attack and been told S4 will police it up and link up with you at the end of day? So you saying it is more acceptable for you or your troops to lose several $100's of gear instead of having it marked to it can be broken down to the company and then to the individual. Anybody in for more than 2 years gets an annual clothing allowance. It doesn't cost much for name tags or reflective eyes, and a smart man can sew them on there self.

Response by SFC Charles Diers made Sep 11 at 2021 12:55 AM

SFC Charles Diers — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:55:29 -0400

Goggle: Your Monthly Clothing Allowance on your LES (Leave and Earnings Statement). There’s a lot to say about that. It isn’t much, but collectively and over time additional money provides for the maintenance and replacement of military clothing as they wear out beyond that initial issue of clothing back in Basic Training or Boot Camp. Back in my day we were always sewing on Unit Patches, Insignia, rank, name tapes, and buttons etc etc. The convenience of Velcro and no need for boot black shoe polish nowadays amazes me. ARMY the most fun, cold and misery I ever had. I wish I could do it all again. Essayons!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2021 12:06 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 12:06:11 -0400

Judging by your statement/question, you are not prepared to be an NCO. A SARG maybe. In most units there's this thing called "standards." Standards are the way things suppose to be. In the case of the 82d, all paratroopers must have their name sewn on the OCIE equipment. But why sarge? To identify who it belongs too. Because that's the standard. Now the money issue, if you are having financial difficulties, I recommend that you seek a financial counselor to help you create a budget. Sometimes we have to spend money on items that are just required for our profession, like hair cuts or extra socks for the PT uniform. If you believe that your CSM is asking for something unlawful, contact your local IG, they will be happy to assist you find resolution. In the meantime, follow an enforce standards, as an NCO should.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2021 9:42 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:42:39 -0400

If this is distressing to you SGT then do yourself a favor and never become an officer or especially an officer in the guard and reserves. You’ll be spending a lot more of your own money to alter and update equipment and clothing to meet requirements than you are now without a clothing allowance each year. This is why you’ll see many reserve and guard officers hitting up local surplus stores, eBay, or doing online trading for things.

Response by TSgt James Warfield made Dec 30 at 2023 8:58 PM

TSgt James Warfield — Sat, 30 Dec 2023 20:58:23 -0500

I am retired so can only speak when I was serving.
I see this question pop up now and then and I SMH wondering is this person serious. We were given a clothing allowance, each month that was suppose to help keep our uniforms in good condition or update when needed. Of course, the clothing allowance didn't cover half the cost most of the time, especially when new items were phased in and old ones phased out, nor did it cover when PCS to a new assignment and having to have new patches swon on, or promotion in rank etc. Going from a cold climate where one would wear a heavy uniform as to warmer climate or vise of versa.
The bottom line, one did it because it was required, it should esprit de core etc.
Now these items can be used a tax write offs,but of course ones needs enough items to itemized and not taking the standard deductions.
Bottom line, it seems what has happen over the several decades it's what is it in it for me, instead of what is best for my unit. Just my opinion