What's safer, Airborne or Air Assault?

2017-08-04T23:56:24-04:00

I'm in the 101st now. I'm actually in a CAV unit as a grunt and we fast rope more than any other forscom unit on Campbell. Is flying in a hot DZ more dangerous than dropping in?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2017 11:58 PM

2017-08-04T23:58:36-04:00

I broke my ankle before Airborne school so I am a leg. Inquiring-minds-want-to-know? Let's find out!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 12:01 AM

2017-08-05T00:01:17-04:00

I wish I could edit my question to ask which is more dangerous. One is falling from the sky and hopefully landing in close proximity to everyone. The other is flying a loud helicopter directly above the area or in vicinity of it and the repelling. This is more of my actual question.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 12:03 AM

2017-08-05T00:03:48-04:00

I'm a LEG SSG but the comparisons just seem to be overall a wash they both are equally high risk and physically risky.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 12:11 AM

2017-08-05T00:11:12-04:00

Here's something you may or may not have seen from Canadian Special Forces demo video amount training repelling onto a rooftop. No real element of surprise. Still looks cool though.
https://youtu.be/8dWYlgl_6x4

Introducing the Canadian Special Operations Forces Command (CANSOFCOM) 2013

PepperBelly brings you a unique video unrelated to gaming in any way. Created by the Canadian Special Operations Forces Command (CANSOFCOM), showcasing the u...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 12:33 AM

2017-08-05T00:33:27-04:00

They aren't really comparable. There isn't a situation where you would do both. You would never use rappelling from a helicopter in almost any situation. You would only fast rope a small element, and usually only when you are putting a small element on a very specific location like a building, only when the risk of fast roping outweighs the issue of landing a helicopter in an LZ further away for an air assault.
On the other hand, jumping is inherently dangerous. You're one minor mistake from becoming a lawn dart, or a towed jumper. Jumping is useful for inserting small teams a distance from the target, or for inserting an overwhelming force onto an airfield and opening it for follow on forces. The airborne can also be inserted deeper into hostile territory than air assault. It's just different tools for different missions. In airborne units I've worked in we practiced both skill sets.

Response by SGT Eric Hawkins made Aug 5 at 2017 1:40 AM

2017-08-05T01:40:35-04:00

Both are dangerous. I'm Air Assault, so my bias (obviously) leans towards helicopters over fixed-wing aircraft. That being said, the risk really depends on the mission, LZ/DZ, terrain, experience, and so on and so forth. Accidents occur with both techniques. In 1993, the dust in Mogadishu was so bad under the prop-wash that the pilots could not see that the fast rope was not on the ground. Soldiers just slipped right off the end of the rope resulting in a death. Airborne, as has already been noted, presents the possibility of separating and entire unit immediately upon reaching an objective. Conduct properties assessments and take risk reduction measures to mitigate loss of time or personell. AIR ASSAULT!!!

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 1:49 AM

2017-08-05T01:49:44-04:00

In LRS, we practiced both, plus zodiac insertions/exfil. Personally, I prefer just leaping (and I use that term loosely considering the weight of combat equipment) into darkness versus reaching for the rope. I've roped out of 60s and 53s, and one thing I never got a warm-and-fuzzy on was reaching out the side of a 60. 53s have a "hell hole," and it's a little comforting that a little shutter won't send you out into the inky night. And I'd prefer either of those to carrying a zodiac over land… no thanks.

Response by SPC Anthony Schepis made Aug 5 at 2017 2:28 AM

2017-08-05T02:28:32-04:00

Doesn't matter they never will be used in a hostile environment unless they want to get shot down.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 2:58 AM

2017-08-05T02:58:51-04:00

Those in Airborne status receive a $150 extra a month for HAZARDOUS DUTY. Airassault a big fat $0. Guess why?

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 3:56 AM

2017-08-05T03:56:50-04:00

I don't think you get hazardous duty pay for being air assault, and air assault qualification is not a requirement for someone to participate in an air assault mission. However, with airborne you get extra pay, and being airborne qualified is a requirement to conduct airborne jumps. These are in place because of the inherent dangers.

Ok, so obviously I am biased too, but to the person who said they prefer helos over fixed wing: Paratroopers jump out of helos too. My last 3 jumps were helo airborne jumps (two Chinooks and one Blackhawk).

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Aug 5 at 2017 5:47 AM

2017-08-05T05:47:18-04:00

SAFE, Neither, wrong line of work for safe. I have both and both have merits as well as detractions. MET-T answers the questions. a Hot LZ will suck either way what is the mission, how much cover and concealment can you expect, what are you bringing in with you? Fixed wing tend to be more predictable and cannot manuver very much and need a large fairly flat empty plot of land, Rotor can do more manuvers and no one, not even the pilots really know where the chaulk will actually leave, which is why the false insertions before and after the actual drop off, smaller LZ gives more choices as well

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Aug 5 at 2017 6:12 AM

2017-08-05T06:12:33-04:00

Neither one are safe, your a target either way.

Response by SSG Brian L. made Aug 5 at 2017 7:57 AM

2017-08-05T07:57:09-04:00

Ask Ltc Smith current BC of the 2-506IN he jumped into Panama and was boots on ground in Mogodishu... he says Air Assualt was way more frightening.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 8:17 AM

2017-08-05T08:17:25-04:00

As others have said, it depends...

There are too many factors that can determine whether one can go from safest, to most dangerous. However, I'd guess that in a perfect-world scenario, Air Assault has fewer things that could go wrong, therefore making it a bit safer method.

Response by CPT Andrew Wright made Aug 5 at 2017 8:45 AM

2017-08-05T08:45:13-04:00

Airborne is definitely more dangerous but I also believe if you are flying around in twenty year old Army helicopter its a whole new element of danger.

Response by LTC Jeff Shearer made Aug 5 at 2017 9:13 AM

2017-08-05T09:13:39-04:00

SSG Johnson, that is a great question and I am sure opinions are like body parts we all have lots. Now for my opinion; I did some fast rope, I did some rappel and did a bunch of jumping, my quick answer is they are all dangerous but fulfill very different needs. I have seen guys hurt on all the above. Get as much training as possible and train as much as possible because as you well know when some jackass is trying to kill you is not the time to learn a little.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Aug 5 at 2017 10:18 AM

2017-08-05T10:18:51-04:00

Hanging in a harness, up in the air, and allowing people several seconds to shoot at you is not a healthy way to start a battle. On the other hand I was in more than one Huey that took rounds that if had hit the engine probably would have killed all on board from the crash. Point being ... going into battle is a very, very, very dangerous thing to do .. even if you are diving a VW Bus with Grateful Dead stickers on it. So get the jump wings .. you won;t regret it!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 10:42 AM

2017-08-05T10:42:50-04:00

Let's put it this way, every time I jump from 800m, fall to the earth using a thin blanket to slow my me down, and somehow hit the ground, get up and walk away, without injury, I feel I have somehow performed a miracle. I can't say I've ever felt that way on the rope...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 10:52 AM

2017-08-05T10:52:45-04:00

I'm not Airborne qualified but if I had to guess I would say ASSLT is safer.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Aug 5 at 2017 11:10 AM

2017-08-05T11:10:11-04:00

Airborne... you have a parachute! :-)

Response by SFC Dave Beran made Aug 5 at 2017 11:20 AM

2017-08-05T11:20:58-04:00

In a hot LZ I would rather fast rope. But either way there is no such thing as a perfectly good aircraft. Lol. Sorry to all the Air Force RPers and Chopper Jockies.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 12:05 PM

2017-08-05T12:05:36-04:00

Hahahaha

Response by SSG Brian L. made Aug 5 at 2017 12:13 PM

2017-08-05T12:13:39-04:00

OK now looking at your question again and your profile... we just had your SCO at the schoolhouse. I am an Air Assault instructor and he came through on my team. He seems like a very good officer and Im sure your Squadron is in good hands.

Response by LTC James Guggenheim made Aug 5 at 2017 12:53 PM

2017-08-05T12:53:34-04:00

Personally, I would like to drop in. Landing in a hot LZ is not a lot of fun.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 1:45 PM

2017-08-05T13:45:33-04:00

There have been more soldiers given assault landing credit for airborne operations than air assault operations. Your chances of fast roping anywhere besides a training environment in a conventional unit is far less than a conventional unit doing a combat jump. That said, your chances of being injured are just as high doing fast rope operations as they are in doing airborne operations. Your chances of being injured just flying around in a helicopter and landing on a LZ are laughably low unless you charge headfirst towards the rear rotor or do something equally stupid. The reality is, aircraft are too valuable to waste on inserting troops into a hot LZ.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 8:38 PM

2017-08-05T20:38:14-04:00

Chaos Company in 1/75 CAV? I was the Aid Station NCOIC until 2 years ago with HHT. Busy unit. Lots of schools and opportunities for those guys though

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Aug 5 at 2017 11:31 PM

2017-08-05T23:31:57-04:00

Both are inherently dangerous, and, by definition, not "safe". Fast Rope, more dangerous than rappelling, because there is no mechanical connection. Airborne, has many checks, and balances, but no guarantee of safety in sight.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 11:49 PM

2017-08-05T23:49:36-04:00

Anything that involves aircraft and the movement of supplies and men is inherently "dangerous". Accidents can happen at any time and conducting air assault operations (including parachuting) is risky business. However, doing a static-line parachute jump is far more dangerous than doing an air assault due to the high risk of personal injury jumping from a high performance aircraft traveling near 200 mph and hitting the ground hard.

The biggest threat to personnel performing an air assault is the aircraft itself if it suffers a major malfunction and crashes. Getting off the helo or rappelling from it is risky, but not nearly as dangerous than coming down in a parachute, not even close. I've actually suffered a small fracture in my neck during one of my jumps and numerous other injuries as a paratrooper, so I know firsthand how dangerous it is. Air Assault is a pretty straightforward mode of transportation and rappelling/fast-roping doesn't have the same risks as parachuting. Airborne operations is probably the most dangerous thing you can do in the military, especially when you do static-line jumping.

As far as inserting on a "hot" DZ/LZ, I would hope that other options are available, but helos are versatile enough to get out of there if the enemy has too much fire, but careful planning and intel are more important factors.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 2:02 PM

2017-08-09T14:02:46-04:00

you drop slow and become a target, if you are droped off by a bird you can take cover faster so I say air assault.

Response by SSG Bill Pemberton made Aug 9 at 2017 9:41 PM

2017-08-09T21:41:30-04:00

Walking in as a leg is safer

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Aug 10 at 2017 6:08 PM

2017-08-10T18:08:10-04:00

I never felt that jumping was super dangerous, just a bit wierd the first few times you do it. I think I'd be more scared to fast rope.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 7:37 PM

2017-08-10T19:37:00-04:00

Per capita? Air Assault is probably more dangerous than Airborne.
However, no one is ever going to fast rope a brigade on to a 3 square mile area in about 5 minutes flat along with equipment, guns, and vehicles, so it's kind of a difficult game to figure out.

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Aug 10 at 2017 9:36 PM

2017-08-10T21:36:53-04:00

Honestly, who cares about safer? Safer doesn't come with good near-death (or lucky as hell) stories. There's a reason one of them pays hazardous duty and has its own beret color. Plus it's cooler. AIRBORNE!!! Sorry 101st still got mad respect for ya.

Response by SSG Will Phillips made Aug 10 at 2017 10:50 PM

2017-08-10T22:50:57-04:00

Even back in the 70's & 80's, the 82nd was drilling on the same thing on a regular basis the stuff taught in Air Assault school.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 10:51 AM

2017-08-11T10:51:57-04:00

Do you like apples or oranges?

Response by SPC David S. made Aug 11 at 2017 5:42 PM

2017-08-11T17:42:27-04:00

I'd bet there's more risk doing anything via a bird from a combat perspective jumping or roping from them. I'd say this is apples and oranges as well as Airborne infill is large and AA is usually smaller unit infill. Safety is in the numbers thing. As well mission and all sorts of things play into this like terrain and weather. I'd put the Osprey into the bird basket as well.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1932386,00.html

Response by PFC Robert Mendenhall made Aug 12 at 2017 1:23 AM

2017-08-12T01:23:47-04:00

Neither. I was in Somalia in 93. I fast roped in under fire. was with the 1st Ranger batt. at the time. I am also jump qualified. Both are dangerous. but for different reasons.

Response by SGT Scott Henderson made Aug 12 at 2017 7:18 AM

2017-08-12T07:18:37-04:00

More dangerous in the sense that the helicopter had to hover in position. Less dangerous in the sense that the last time anyone fast roped in was Mogadishu. Airborne might be more dangerous in the sense that the enemy can shoot a paratroopers while they descend and your weapon in strapped to you in a case.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2017 6:00 PM

2017-08-12T18:00:07-04:00

Individual experiences vary, but nothing is a cool as a combat jump.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2017 1:05 PM

2017-08-13T13:05:19-04:00

Jumping isn't exactly "safe", but it's still safer than driving to work down 85 S. I would definitely say jumping is probably more dangerous, but I can't speak for Air Assault as I don't the badge. Being an Infantryman I believe your job is more dangerous than either insertion method, so I think the better question would be "What is the preferred method of insertion?". Though than we get into the 82nd vs 101st debate. I can tell you I felt a lot more nervous on convoys in Kabul in an "up-armored" SUV than I ever did on any jump, to include night jumps (which are like driving down the freeway at 70 mph, and chucking the steering wheel out the window). At the end of the day I trust my Jumpmasters, training, and Riggers as we have some of the best in the Army in our unit.

Response by SFC Craig Starr made Dec 20 at 2017 8:52 PM

2017-12-20T20:52:25-05:00

Level of safety lies in Risk mitigation and probability. Composite Risk Assessment. METT-TC is a prime factor in identifying and mitigating risk analysis between the two types of insertion techniques. Each having it's own pros and cons.

BLUF: not a cut and dry answer of one over the other.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 19 at 2018 10:06 PM

2018-05-19T22:06:46-04:00

As a Marine I had this debate with soldiers a lot.

Arriving in a hot LZ with an egg beater overhead that makes a lot of noise that can be heard from a good distance is dumb.

Arriving in a hot DZ dangling from Sister Mary's pillow case by some string is dumb.

Arriving across a contested beach in a bullet trap that opens to the front is dumb.

That said... we do what we must. I hope that helps, but bet it doesn't.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made May 20 at 2018 11:55 AM

2018-05-20T11:55:35-04:00

The best judge is yourself by doing both.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made May 20 at 2018 2:51 PM

2018-05-20T14:51:07-04:00

OK, lets have a brief discussion on Jump Pay and Hazardous Duty Pay. Thoough I have no idea why the Pentagon came up with those payments. The tiny amount of payment clearly screams INCENTIVE PAYMENT not COMPENSATION PAYMENT. So for those that say you get the payment for the Hazzard and because it is dangerous I do not believe to be correct, I think that is an over simplification. Instead you get the INCENTIVE because the DUTY IS VOLUNTARY and they need to INCENT people so that they VOLUNTEER. It is the exact same philosophy behind an enlistment bonus. Though one could argue that some of the gigantic enlistment bonuses for SF troops during the GWOT that approached $150,000 could in part be a COMPENSATION payment because they were so large. Generally enlistment bonus's are intended as a INCENTIVE to induce voluntary behavior. I would argue the same is probably true of Combat Pay. Just a guess on my part.

One would have to dive into the deepest part of Pentagon thinking to be sure.

Response by SFC James Welch made Jul 15 at 2018 8:09 PM

2018-07-15T20:09:04-04:00

Safe?

Response by CW3 Jim Norris made Jun 2 at 2019 12:44 AM

2019-06-02T00:44:03-04:00

Different mission envelopes for different purposes. Drop secure LZ. The bring rappelling soldiers to augment? Kind a mixed bag. I don't see where the mission commander would endanger helicopters to ground fire if sufficient AB assets are available to establish security, the bring mech infantry and armor up the road.

Response by SPC Ray Orvin made Aug 11 at 2021 6:32 PM

2021-08-11T18:32:22-04:00

If you have to ask this then you need to go back to your mommas titty

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2021 9:32 PM

2021-08-11T21:32:41-04:00

I'm not airborne but I'd say AASLT is safer because you never hear about anybody getting decapitated doing that. The only danger I ever saw was a dumbass missing the rope and falling 75 feet out of the bird. It was hilarious once we knew he was ok, but I wouldn't call it dangerous at all

Response by SPC Mike Cereghino made Jan 12 at 2022 5:37 PM

2022-01-12T17:37:21-05:00

150.00 a month I got 50.00 back in the 70s
I guess cost of living

Response by SPC Joe Lackey made Jan 27 at 2022 6:16 AM

2022-01-27T06:16:59-05:00

Armor