What's the difference between hazing and bonding as a unit?

Cpl Tom Surdi — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:53:44 -0400

I just watched a video of a group of Marines having a "pileon" in a K-Span in 29 Palms on CAX. It brought back memories of my own platoon and our own little "hazing" rituals while bored and out in the field training. If you have ever been on a CAX you will know it's 3 weeks of waiting being bored and a week of actual training, that's a lot of time to kill.

We had our own little version of a pileone where it was 1 person vs the rest of the group. We would clear one side of the K-Span and 1 person would be selected (usually the boot Marine who was on their first CAX). And we would rush them, we had a few rules, no punching or kicking or biting, no major bodily harm. The object was for the one person make one in the group tap out in an allotted amount of time, if they didn't they got 5 minute break and it started all over again. If they did manage to make a person tap out, that person was let up to join the group and the person who tapped out would be made to stand alone. And we would do this every night until everyone had had a turn. We even did it with our LT when he joined us one one of the smaller training ops.

There were sometimes injuries, I once had a cot broken over my back when I got rushed and slammed onto it by a few overzealous people, it hurt like a bitch but there was no serious damage.

Some of the senior enlisted and officers would stop by because they heard the noise, but they never stopped us or reprimanded us.

Here is where I pose the question. When does an activity like this become hazing and what would you consider hazing? The Marine Corps has been called out a lot on hazing in the past with "pining." If you don't know what pining is, it's when you are given a new rank or award and after they put it on you you, they leave the backing off and people take turns smashing it into your chest or collar bone.

I don't believe what we did was smart, we were after all a bunch of stupid bored kids and looking back on it could have ended VERY badly. But I do know that it did bring us all closer together as a unit.

So what is that fine line between activities like this that while dangerous does improve moral and unit cohesion among the group and actual hazing?

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2018 4:01 PM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 16:01:08 -0400

DODI 1020.03. Read it and weep. I say that because after reading it, most people have indeed been weeping.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2018 4:13 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 16:13:47 -0400

Oooo...good one.

To answer that question, there's two answers; What's the "legal" response vs. the "common sense" response. Regs are regs, and they're usually anything but "common sense".

Most of us would probably agree that if it is designed to strengthen someone's personal fortitude, or increase a sense of unit cohesion...it SHOULD be ok (even if it ain't no more). If it results in unnecessary loss of an individual's readiness due to serious injury, or does nothing more than to "break" otherwise top performing individuals...then, I expect most of us would call foul, regulations or no regulations.

Response by SPC David Willis made Mar 16 at 2018 4:53 PM

SPC David Willis — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 16:53:46 -0400

I think when it singles one person out in a negative light, for example in your scenario no matter if he taps someone out he has to do it again and again and again and again. Bonding rituals usually make everyone suffer or make an individual suffer to no greater extent than those who have gone through it before have suffered. This is what's going wrong with many college fraternities is they keep escalating it thinking they have to be harder where as most military rituals remain unchanged due to tradition. For example the koala pose has been around forever and has not gotten more difficult as the years go on. Things like finding items that don't exist have been a staple for longer than anyone here has been alive. Push ups and smoke sessions don't get harder nor do the language used during them. Of course there are bad apples that will actually beat someone to a pulp rather than a group pugilistic contest but again I think the big difference between hazing and bonding is how narrow the spotlight is.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2018 4:56 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 16:56:19 -0400

Cpl Tom Surdi When I served, we did not have time to become bored. Singling out the Boot for hazing rituals is unacceptable.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2018 6:23 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 18:23:00 -0400

When you single out one or a few individuals or you isolate them then usually that is hazing. If everyone is partaking of the same misery then that is bonding. Bonding happens everyone goes through the same or similar ordeal. I had one BN commander who thought the best way to raise morale he would make us do 12 mile ruck march.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 16 at 2018 6:29 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 18:29:59 -0400

I thought bonding was maybe going to dinner and training together.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Mar 16 at 2018 6:49 PM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 18:49:29 -0400

The biggest difference is someone complaining... or someone on the outside looking in.

We have to walk a fine line and until you can say you know your troops 100%, it is advisable not to do anything that could be construed as hazing.

There are those amongst us who join for the Brotherhood and want to be part of the group. Then there are those who are in it only for themselves and will look for any way to complain about someone.

I've had one who tried to scream hazing because they were made to clean their room on Field Day. Thankfully that didn't pan out for them.

On the other end of the spectrum, I had one who wanted me to pin on their rank "the old fashioned way" and I told him I couldn't because that's considered hazing. But he was very vocal about it and I had to pull him aside and explain that he could get us both in a lot of trouble because even though he wants to be pinned, legally he can't consent to hazing.

But we've all done stuff to mess with each other, but as long as it stays in house, no harm no foul. The moment someone on the outside gets involved... hazing.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2018 3:27 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Mar 2018 15:27:34 -0400

My personal opinion: intent matters.

If the intent is positive, and there is an acceptably low risk of serious bodily injury, the activity should be okay. (I say acceptably low risk, because accidents happen. Had a kid get his face smashed in 9 places playing touch football for command PT once... Oops. He turned out fine.)

If the intent is humiliation-- that's not cool.
Unless you are the JORG... then it is okay. (If you don't know what that is, don't worry about it... it isn't you.)

It gets tricky when the intent is to correct a deficiency. (Think 'Code Red' from A Few Good Men.) There is 'official' EMI which doesn't happen unless there is already a paper trail, then there's the proverbial 'treeline' which is a gray area and has been forever.
Way back in the day, I had this copperhead-mean, sadistic old SSGT who would let us young'uns choose our punishment for minor transgressions: Our options were the he could push paperwork (formal counseling, etc.), or we could push deck. Was that 'legal'-- oh hell no. It was 100% hazing according to the instruction. Do you want to guess what each and every one of us chose? Yup. Every. Single. Time.
As it turns out, he wasn't really that mean. He just seemed that way because we were students and he was our platoon Sergeant. He was sadistic, though... taking us along on his 'marathon training'... 18 freaking miles?!? THAT should have been called hazing. Jerk.
Another time I had a couple of young (as in under 21yo) knuckleheads get drunk out in town. Their DD ditched them for a chick he met in a bar (which was a total d*** move), so they did what they were supposed to do and called me (I was their first line NCO). I went and picked their drunk arses up. Yelled at them for getting drunk out in town-- back then, exactly NO ONE had a problem with servicemembers drinking ON BASE regardless of age, but out in town was a different story and they knew it-- but I never filed any paperwork. No one asked why they were on the schedule to field day around the barracks every morning for the next week (normally a daily rotating assignment), and I never told. (Until now, I guess.)

My point is-- think about what you are planning to do. Get input from those who have been around longer than you, and listen to them. Even if you never intend to tell anyone about it (like my drunk young Marines' punishment), think to yourself-- would I be able to explain and justify my actions to the 1st SGT or the CAPT if called to do so. If you would be okay with that-- what you are doing is probably okay even if it is 'technically' not okay so long as your intent was well placed.

Response by 2LT Ronald Reimer made Sep 23 at 2018 11:36 PM

2LT Ronald Reimer — Sun, 23 Sep 2018 23:36:59 -0400

It’s hazing when it is unwanted attention. It’s bonding when it is mutually agreed on, without coercion and improves unit morale and esprit de corp.