What's The Problem With The Air Force Culture?

2015-03-06T11:29:32-05:00

EDIT: In the interest of fairness and full disclosure, I am leaving the original text of this post below so that you may see how I originally approached this question. When I first posted this, I was still a relative newcomer to RallyPoint. I was and still am curious about Air Force culture, working on Fort Snelling, MN, home of the 934th Air Wing, United States Air Force Reserve as well as the 133rd Tactical Fighter Squadron, Minnesota Air National Guard. In the past, I have worked jointly with elements of Air Force Security Forces and have always enjoyed strong working relationships. Aside from the usual banter across services, there is strong curiosity across the Army about you men and women in blue. However, this trend started to grow gradually more toxic in approximately 2007, around about the time SECDEF Rumsfeld leveled the charge that the Air Force wasn't engaged in the fight. That was an unfair charge; yet it hurt you as an institution nevertheless. Slowly, the talk I would hear among Soldiers in regards to Airmen turned more to contempt and bitterness. This wasn't right. And we all know that the Army's house has been far from perfect over the past decade plus; from Abu Ghraib to the apparent trend of dishonesty within our own Officer corps, we have our own crosses to bear without finding fault within your Force. So, if my original post below came across to you as sanctimonious or judgmental, that wasn't my intent. When I posted, I followed the recommendations to lead off with an attention-grabbing storyline, which I did. It's worked well! However, as I've refined my RP skills, I now know I would have dialed it back a notch or two! Thanks so much for allowing me to be a guest in your house and learn from you. I am thankful to you all, I am grateful for the connections I've made, and I'm damn glad you're on my side!

Howdy! Did the headline grab your attention? Good! I intend no disrespect; I am an Army Officer who seeks greater understanding. Participation in several recent threads has revealed a trend that issues such as stolen valor and the vigorous enforcement of standards, regulations, and policies are not only less important among Air Force folks, but there also exists an attitude of "even if we try to enforce or prevent, violations still occur, so why keep trying?" Is this just the winter observations of several bored Army Officers, or is this really a cultural mindset you as Air Force leaders must currently do battle with?

Ground Rules:
This is intended as a serious, cross-service professional discussion. I do not desire to see this diminish into a meme war or name-calling game. This discussion is open to all ranks, though is intended primarily for Officers and Senior NCOs. Navy and Marine Corps personnel may feel free to jump in and expand the boundaries of this discussion to all Service Branches at anytime.

Thank you.

Paul E. Hoiland
MAJ, MP
USAR

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Mar 6 at 2015 12:48 PM

2015-03-06T12:48:21-05:00

I understand the questions. My dad is a Air Force retiree, so I grew up on Air Force bases. The Air Force definitely seems to have more of a relaxed attitude about regulations than the Marine Corps. But I guess the question I would ask is whether or not this perceived lax attitude jeopardizes performance. I can't think of any incidents where it has. The Air Force seems to know their mission and do it very well.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 6 at 2015 2:47 PM

2015-03-06T14:47:22-05:00

Each service is "different" neither better nor worse, but different, in various ways.

For example, the Air Force doesn't have NCOs at the E4 rank at all. The "Buck" Sergeant rank disappeared in 1991, which changes the way they approach leadership, in ways similar to the way the Army does with the Specialist rank. The USMC/USN/USCG E4 paygrades are NCO without a divide, and for me, I've always looked at the "same pay, less responsibilities" thing as odd.

The USAF however, as a culture is the most technically focused. The best comparison I can come up with is this.

My first unit was a grunt battalion in the Fleet Marine Force. It was focused on operations & training (in support of operations). My second unit was at Quantico, which is essentially a training & education base.

When I got to Quantico, I was told, and later had to tell others "This is not the Fleet." The focus is different. The mission is different. How you interact with people has to adjust accordingly.

The USAF is kind of like that. The vast majority of what "they" do, isn't like what "we" do. So they're focus is shifted accordingly. Their mindsets & cultures are built around that. But, I look at the USN & US Army the same way. What works for you doesn't exactly work for us.

Response by PO1 Dustin Adams made Mar 6 at 2015 3:01 PM

2015-03-06T15:01:13-05:00

I have found the Air Force to be the least "militant" of the armed forces. Not to say they are not a professional service, but there just isn't a culture of formal discipline/bearing that you see in the other branches. Interactions have always had more of a corporate feel then military.
It could be because as a branch they recruit more of the intellectual types (highest minimum ASVAB for enlisted).
There are exceptions (PJ's and CCT's) but overall they are not a force with boots on the ground going into the breach so the Air Force culture may have not developed that level of formal military discipline because it is not required for mission accomplishment.

Not trying to disparage the Air Force nor say they are not disciplined in their jobs, but being disciplined in conducting the maintenance PQS on a plane is not the same as military discipline/bearing.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 3:22 PM

2015-03-06T15:22:30-05:00

As an active duty Army soldier, I can often point out and identify violations such as stolen valor and infractions to the regulations surrounding the Army lifestyle. That being said, I also have a buddy who is a USAFR medic who is just as aware of the violations and just as quick to call people out on them. I BELIEVE (no intent to insult anyone by any means) that as a whole, being more of a technical profession, rather than tactical, the Air Force is either less aware/vigilant regarding such things, or simply has more personnel who avoid the issue under the premise of "not my place." In the Army, things like stolen valor are a BIG no-no. But having asked my friend, SrA Nordan, about the topic, it would seem that they are not always instructed to take action against such things, and that is, in my opinion a failure on the part of the leadership.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Mar 6 at 2015 3:43 PM

2015-03-06T15:43:50-05:00

Each branch may have certain ways of doing things differently from others, but I am of the opinion that certain standards, policies, and regulations should and must be met and enforced in all, if each was allowed to follow just want they want....I don't even want to think about the end result.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 3:47 PM

2015-03-06T15:47:48-05:00

From my experience, being one of those in the Force who actually did a "boots on the ground" type job, there is actually a split in the Force.

Yes, the vast majority are technically sound & more worried that the mechanics are properly fixing the birds, or keeping the 'net clean, or making sure the nukes are stable (*cough cough* we won't talk about recent incidents w/ nuke officers...lol). They are a LOT more relaxed than the other branches.

I have a buddy that was active Marines & decided to join the Air Reserve as an A-10 Mech. He tells me constantly about how the lack of discipline (Marine-style, that is) drives him crazy. I have to remind him it's a different kind of beast. To his credit, he stands head & shoulders above the others in his reserve wing due to his discipline. His first shock came when he was to first report to Whiteman to meet the wing commander & he was the only one that showed up in business casual dress (as was ordered since he hadn't been issued unis yet). The rest showed up in t-shirts & jeans. He said he damn near had an aneurysm...lol.

PO1 Dustin Adams, you make a great point. There are portions of the Force were discipline is taken more seriously: Security Forces, PJ, CC, CWoT, Tac-P. These are the tactical portions of the Force. As I frequently dumb down my explanation of what it was I did, in addition to MP work, we (Security Forces) are basically the infantry of the Air Force. That was not meant to disparage the infantry, it is just the easiest way to explain it to a civilian. We were the ones that went outside the wire & provide physical security. We were the ones that went out to the field and embraced whatever suck there was - granted, it was Air Force, so the suck wasn't necessarily that bad :P .

As for PJ (Pararescue), CC (Combat Control), CWoT (Combat Weather Team), & Tac-P (Tactical Air Party), they are our Spec Ops guys. Their discipline is on another level...& out of this world when compared to the rest of the Force!

Hope this helped MAJ Private RallyPoint Member

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 3:54 PM

2015-03-06T15:54:07-05:00

I am commenting mostly so I can follow this because I'm curious about it myself. Back in Korea, I want to say early 2004, as a PFC I was put on a baggage detail. I was stationed at Camp Humphrey's, and the detail took a team of 7 of us to Osan during the RSOI joint exercises for about a week. Our job was pretty much to load and unload cargo planes like 747's of large cargo, but mostly baggage from the bellies of passenger planes. I thought it a little odd to get a bunch of army guys from another camp to work labor force at an air force airfield, but hell, I was a PFC, and it got me away from "the flag pole" for a while. After that I was honestly left with the impression that "these guys" had a really poor work ethic, and they were lazy. Not saying now that this was an accurate assessment, but it did highlight the differences in the cultures. For example, they were almost to a point, from my perspective, absurdly worried about the time. No one, and I mean NO one would work even a few minutes in off time, like for lunch. When a plane was just about fully unloaded and loaded, maybe 20 minutes of work left, nope! It's lunch time, you have to leave the airfield. I was of the mindset looking at the work to be done thinking "let's just get this done and grab lunch after", but they very strictly adhered to "punching out" when it was time to do so for lunch or at the end of the day. Not the "get it done" mentality I was accustomed to. Happened almost daily. As a ch47 mechanic who was also the "hey you" guy for driving trailer trucks all over Korea, I knew a thing or two about securing loads and such. On a C5, on the same detail, we were securing some pallets and vehicles with chains and such. The airforce NCO tasked with managing us was there with is and as I was helping him tighten up some have weight chains down, I did what you do too take out the slack and get them right. You jiggle them, and as you do, you tighten the shackle. The slight bounce takes up the weight thus making it easier to tighten, and securing the load better. This AF NCO got all upset about it like I was playing games jiggling chains and says "we don't have time for you to screw around!" and looks at me like I was a nuisance and waves me away. As he wanders off I look at his chains wondering what I was doing wrong and all of his are slacked, or coming in from the top of the shackle (rather than through center, you know, correctly). Just wrong, and too lazy to make the extra effort to get a job done right. There were a handful of AF E-4's and a 5 that worked at the airfield with us, and they too have the impression that just "getting the job done" was a secondary priority. They didn't have that "sense of urgency" or "move with a purpose" we expect out of ARMY personnel. Nor could they be bothered to walk 4 minutes to the DFAC, had to wait on the shuttle bus. You could categorize all this as more "relaxed" I suppose, but for last decade and some change, this has been my first impression, and only real in-person, first-hand experience with the air force besides the airfield SF (chuckle), whom I had marginal confidence in actually keeping the airfield secured. It was a lasting impression, occasionally fortified during deployment as a crew chief, by that one AF passenger that always took his time getting on board my chinook, or the less than reliable weather calls made before missions. An example, "clear skies over Bahgram" at night...As I would stand outside, unable to count a single star, and lightning reflecting off of low ceilings. Then there was this time we had to take a chinook out to gather a crashed UAV...got out there, the pathfinders securing the site helped my gunner, crewchief, and myself load up the pieces of this thing. We get back to Bahgram on "The Air Force Side" of the airfield, I drop the ramp, and a few hundred feet away is a cluster of air force guys. I step off with a piece in hand, set it just outside the rotor disc, and wave them to ome over. Of course they are taking their time getting to my acft, so in the meantime I'm grabbing mangled pieces and dropping them off the edge of the ramp. As I'm inside, I'm gathering another piece with my gunner and CE helping me, but look back and sure enough they're all gathered just inside the rotor disc, apparently trying to figure out the meaning of life or something staring at us. I went out there with my hands up like "what are you waiting for a F&@#ing fork lift?! Get your s#!+ off my bird!" (A little perturbed). So they did and eventually got something like 30% of the wreckage off as slow as that were moving. All I was thinking was, "did they really need an invite when the obvious was present?" So, all that being said, with my greatest efforts not to talk trash, I've been left with a pretty negative impression of the work ethic/initiative within that particular...group. I would like to think I've just been unlucky. In fact I sincerely hope so.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 6 at 2015 4:26 PM

2015-03-06T16:26:00-05:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member, I guess I will be the first from Big Blue to answer.

The AF as a service has had a issue with "culture" since its inception. The only thing that is an institutional constant is that of "change." Speaking directly to culture, this is something that has been continuously critiqued both internally and externally.

Here is an example of our culture or really lack thereof by one of the AF's biggest critics:

http://www.jqpublicblog.com/service-culture-youre-wrong/

In my experience, it is not a matter that the AF is not "caring" about "standards, regulations, and policies" in fact, walk on any flight line and ask them about what happens when an "capital A" Airmen is found not using a T.O., I assure you, you do NOT want to be that Airmen. Yet there are, rightly or wrongly, some standards are not enforced as rigorously as others. The sister service perception can also be due to the simple fact that our "standards, regulations, and policies" are quite different then our counterparts.

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member, CMSgt James Nolan, Capt Brandon Charters

Service Culture: You’re Doing it Wrong

Every Air Force Chief of Staff yearns to leave an indelible mark on the service. Seven years ago, General T. Michael Moseley chose to spend his dime on “reinvigorating a warrior ethos,” though he a…

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 6 at 2015 4:31 PM

2015-03-06T16:31:32-05:00

Here is another thread in the same vein as this.

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/service-culture-you-re-doing-it-wrong

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Mar 6 at 2015 5:23 PM

2015-03-06T17:23:35-05:00

I had very little contact with the Air Force in my life, while on active duty or otherwise. Those few contacts I had were less than encouraging.

Out of respect for my uncle, a retired Air Force colonel, now deceased, they had at least one good man (and I'm sure many more). But, to be fair, he started out in the Army Air Corps.

In Vietnam, my only contacts with them was when we bartered for equipment. A wing tank that we used as a reservoir for our shower. A Colt .38 revolver that I coveted - my .45 was captured by the VC and thrown back as unfit for use. The AF tended to want C-Rats (yes, you read that correctly. They coveted the stuff).

The only official contact I had with the AF was when I arranged for 5,000 seats on MAC flights to transport soldiers who had DEROS'd at the end of their tours of duty. It was an uncommon request in that our division, the 9th, had deployed together and, although we had been able to infuse personnel with other divisions to prevent the whole unit from going home at the same time, we still had 5,000 leaving over a period of a couple of weeks.

I repeated my request on the phone several times to insure that the AF major understood that we needed 5,000 seats. I followed up with the request in writing. As the time drew close, I called to confirm that the seats were available and the major proudly proclaimed that they were, all 500 of them.

He thought my request was a misprint.

He suggested I call the Navy and arrange sea transport inasmuch as there wasn't sufficient time remaining to come up with 4,500 more seats. I informed him that his life depended upon it. ("Fragging" may have been mentioned) and I got the seats.

The incident left me with the impression that the AF major wasn't all that concerned about the mission or the men. He was, however, concerned with keeping his skin from being perforated.

Other stories came to me, rumors to be honest, that left me with the impression that AF personnel felt entitled. Y'all can confirm this one: Are or were AF personnel provided with supplemental pay for substandard housing when forced to billet at Army bases?

Response by MSgt Robert Pellam made Mar 6 at 2015 6:13 PM

2015-03-06T18:13:38-05:00

As I read some of the responses I agree with some of them. The Air Force is a different culture then the rest of the military. It is hard to explain but there is an over all culture and sub cultures through the Air Force. SSgt Private RallyPoint Member mentioned there is, For a lack of a better term, the combat side. The Security Forces, Combat Controllers and such. They have their own sub culture between them. The Security Forces are an entity all itself. Same with Combat Controllers, they are a different thing all together. Since I was aircraft maintenance I will try to speak only about my side of the house. (notice I said Aircraft... Vehicle maintenance and Civil Engineering is another Sub Culture.)

TSgt Joshua Copeland did an excellent sum up of how the Maintenance side is run. We take safety above all, then mission. That is the Priority. I was Quality Assurance for 4 of my last 6 years in the military. QA, as we were called, are the police men of the Flight Line and Maintenance world. We enforced Safety with an iron hand because when people became lax at that, Mishaps happen, aircraft or equipment get broke or even the loss of life.

I compare that Safety discipline, maybe right or maybe wrong, with Army discipline. From what I know, if a soldier isn't disciplined in what he does, then there are mishaps, something gets damaged or someone looses a life.

Now there is an air of entitlement when it comes to the Air Force. What I mean by that is we were more technically trained then the other services. Several times, while down range and deployed with the other services. They would bring parts into our shop to be repaired, when they could not or were not allowed to. So after generations of this, there are some that get the attitude that we are better then you. IT IS COMPLETELY UNFOUNDED. Just want to get that out there before I have some angry service members breathing down my neck. But that attitude goes both ways. Because the Air Force is not a "Boots on the Ground" service I have seen other service members look down on us. This I think is just a Cultural thing. We all believe we are the best at what we do because we are told that every day by our leadership.

So after rambling on a bit let me try and sum up what I am trying to say. The Air Force is focused on a completely different set of disciplines then the rest of the military. We have to be because what we do is different then the other services. Does this explain everyone in the Air Force? No. But its a start. Any other questions anyone wants to get answered specifically about the AF Aircraft maintenance side please let me know.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Mar 6 at 2015 6:22 PM

2015-03-06T18:22:47-05:00

I have not had the chance to work with Airmen, but in their defense I will say they must be doing something right that so many of the Soldiers I speak to on a daily basis wish they could switch over. I enjoy the concept of working efficiently to finish a project rather than a traditional way which seems more costly and time consuming.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 6:32 PM

2015-03-06T18:32:30-05:00

There was a good book published in the late eighties that takes a good look at how the services differ.
Masks of War, Carl h. Builder was the author, published by John Hopkins university press.
It's a bit dated considering it was written at the end of the cold war but the author was trying to peer into the future and I think he came close with central Europe while missing out on the middle east.
The first few chapters deal with the individual services and I think he hit the mark. Here is what he says about the air force:
"The air force identifies itself with flying and things that fly; the institution is secondary, it is a means to those things. A brave band of intrepid aviators, bonded primarily in the live of flight and flying machines, May have a clear sense of themselves, but it is not so much an institutional as it it's an individual sense of self."

Response by MSgt Jim Pollock made Mar 6 at 2015 8:37 PM

2015-03-06T20:37:33-05:00

BLUF: What's wrong with Air Force culture? The Air Force is young and still forming its identity.

The Air Force is in the midst of an adolescent-style identity crisis. We are not Soldiers, we are not Marines and we are not an airline. We are the Air Force. Our mission is to take control of the skies and then reign destruction on our enemies from that high ground. Period. Dot. Do we do that well? Yes, absolutely.

Are we good at doing our mission because we are like Marines? No. Like Soldiers? No. An airline? No. We are good at our mission because we are Airmen. Period. Dot.

As the youngest service, we seek (and perhaps envy) the rich heritages of our elder services. As such, our Air Force leadership sometimes tries to cut corners by legislating it with contrived "creeds" or capital 'A's for Airmen. The trouble is, legislating heritage is a fools errand. Heritage and the respect of our peers is earned and developed over time.

Our culture was not forged at the Halls of Montezuma, Normandy or the summit of Mt. Suribachi. Ours is developing from operations such as, the Berlin Airlift, Linebackers I and II and the shock and awe of Desert Storm. Our history is different than our sister services and therefore, so is our culture. Embrace it, and develop it for our own purposes, not to appease the critiques of our elder services. I believe (hope) that "corporate" Air Force culture is merely a phase on our journey to maturity as a service.

I say take criticism in stride and be proud that no one brings air power to the fight better than American Airmen. That is our identity. Embrace the culture that makes us who we are. Would I want to be a Marine? No. I'm an Airman and proud of it. Do I respect Marines? Without a doubt.

The Air Force has maturing to do in terms of being comfortable in its own skin. I'm not sure the average Marine has the same respect for Airmen as I do Marines. That's okay. As we fight alongside our sister services in tomorrow's battles we will eventually find ourselves on the same mature, cultural plane as our peer services. Respect will come. So will creeds, slogans and traditions that are developed in the field, not the Pentagon.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 8:38 PM

2015-03-06T20:38:27-05:00

As someone approaching the half-century mark, and having spent the past three decades in/around the USAF, here is my take. From the responses I read, and from my own personnel experience, the problem is mostly this: We are a service in search of traditions and culture. Our roots are in the US Army Signal Corps of the 1920's and until 1947, we wore Army green.

When we became a separate service between WWII and Korea, we did little other than change our uniform from green to blue and replace US Army with US Air Force. The Army, Navy and Marine service uniforms have changed little these past three decades. In that same time span, Our service uniform went through at least three major changes. We went from the Army styled blue to the airline pilot to the current uniform. We removed items, replaced items, changed them, etc. We spent more time on what we are wearing vice who we are. Most of us have a good grasp of the mission, just a differing amount of buy-in. In a service where if I rate you per your performance (or lack thereof), I am the bad guy (believe me, it happens ALOT).

I am sorry my brothers and sisters in blue watched the clock instead of the work. That is not how I led my airmen. We took care of the mission and each other and when necessary, our brothers and sisters in uniform no matter its color.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Mar 6 at 2015 9:21 PM

2015-03-06T21:21:53-05:00

MAJ Paul Hoiland, Please compare Rally Point's perception of the USAF with all "Recruiter Production" statistics? Which service's recruiter has the easiest job?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 9:32 PM

2015-03-06T21:32:44-05:00

No disrespect here-
While I was in AIT, I was on joint base San Antonio (Fort Sam Houston) and had interaction with USAF who were going through their respective medic program. They definitely did have the same definition of discipline that we did. They were organized, but didn't move with urgency or precision. They were technically sound in their jobs as medics, but were a lot more laid back then we were.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 11:05 PM

2015-03-06T23:05:56-05:00

I see a lot of good conversations and points here but please define discipline and what regulations specifically. When necessary Airmen are corrected but it is not hard to wear the uniform, shave and keep a haircut. Sergeant is an accepted term from E5-E8, Sir or Maam is acceptable also. We do not stand at parade rest for higher ranking NCOs nor is there a requirement to stay at attention when addressing an officer (situation depending). The discipline that I have seen is a SrA telling another service officer that regardless of rank they will not break the rules. I personally had to explain to another service that classified confidential material was still considered classified and could not be left out, I think USAF has more people at all ranks dealing with more classified (cannot confirm this). As leaders we are all taught different ways to lead and utilize different methods but unless necessary the directing style is not normally used. The "relaxed" atmosphere that we have leads to a level of comfort and openness and encourages ideas from all ranks. When I worked with the Army all the Pvts and SPCs did not know how to act around me because I constantly would put them at ease and tried to create an area where they could feel free to express themselves including bitching moaning and my favorite question why is this such and such. So I guess it comes down to what are your expectations and are they the same. All my Airmen met the expectations that have been set upon them and corrected when they do not comply, but I will say my standards my differ from another SNCO/another section/another career field, etc...

Response by MSgt Jamie Lyons made Mar 7 at 2015 12:22 AM

2015-03-07T00:22:07-05:00

I believe MSgt Baker about summed it up nicely. If I may point another way of looking at it, the AF is less formal between the ranks than our sister services. You see this all the time when a junior addresses a senior by their complete rank. I also was once taken aside by a navy guy when I addressed a Master Chief in the Navy as only chief. Lucky for me he was alright with it after he realized I was inthe AF.

One thing I have noticed is that other services see how enlisted and officers interact aboard aircraft. Having been an enlisted crew member for the better half of my career, this may have the appearance of 'relaxed' attitude to other services. Quite the opposite actually. In the AF we leave rank out of the plane. We are merely crew members with specific tasks. This creates an environment where everyone's opinion is shared without fear of reprisals. We call it CRM or Crew Resource Management. To other services this may seem crazy as an enlisted person is just gabbing away at an officer. But remember, we leave rank outside the aircraft. With that said, we are all big boys and girls and secretly we know who is in charge. I know that was long but think about what the young marine or soldier 'perceives' the AF is like while hitching a ride aboard our aircraft.

Having been in the AF for 38 years, both as a dependent (18 years) and on active duty (20 years) I have delt with our sister services quite a bit and I have always admired the strict discipline the other services impose on their soldiers, sailors and marines. However, the perception is often not the truth. We get corrected when in violation just like other services by our higher ranks. We just do it 'differently.'

Response by SPC David S. made Mar 7 at 2015 12:37 AM

2015-03-07T00:37:29-05:00

Lack of ingrained historical traditions. The result is a branch emerging from its infancy stage with a thinly developed culture that is mostly borrowed from other branches. Also Air Force is the red headed step child of the Army - you have to remember these are the guys that don't play reveille and retreat because it may disturb shift workers. I wonder what they would think of sleeping in a hole with 155 rounds coming in - loud noises will never scare you again.

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Mar 7 at 2015 1:39 AM

2015-03-07T01:39:21-05:00

I love the Air Force. Nothing comes close.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Mar 7 at 2015 10:31 AM

2015-03-07T10:31:41-05:00

I have to say that I have a very distinct view on this.
We myself being in three branches( USMC ARMY AND AIR FORCE) so here it goes.
1 it definitely a more laid back force but the displace is there just not the other branches are used to
2 very technical
3 I have to agree that the jr nco ranks have no authority what so ever
4 pilots rule over all else
5 no warrant officers
That's it for now
4

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 8 at 2015 12:56 AM

2015-03-08T00:56:06-05:00

Well at risk of personal attacks and light of three things... (1) The fact that I have never been in the Air Force, and (2) The Army's recent revelations that "Army Officers are liars," (3) I am a career (33 years) Soldier, who am I to cast stones?

Nevertheless, I have been working side of along my Air Force Brothers since 1981, when I went to Lackland AFB for the Military Working Dog Handlers course as an E-1. It was then when I first knew we were very different. The Airmen, who were the same time in service (TIS) as me... could literally file a grievance against an instructor if they were treated badly. As I private I could not fathom filing a grievance against a NCO. The barracks we stayed in (yes barracks, or wait a dorm I guess) had maid service... for Privates? The Mess Hall was a cafeteria?

Since then, I have seen them many other times, in training and at war. In my opinion is that they are simply arrogant, and that think they are better and smarter than all other branches; they are the chosen ones. This is odd, as we often think this way about Marines. The funny thing is Marines are really pretty Hooah, and know where they fit in... and the Air Force is not... in most cases... They are just plain elitist and arrogant.

The Army and Navy are sorta the blue collar work force of DOD, and in most cases we are OK with that.

Like support Soldiers in the Army (like me), the Air Force (aka support) needs to realize they are not the main effort (The Army is, or the Navy is), and they can't win by themselves (which they have tried to pitch more than once), but that they are part of team. As part of the Joint team they need to embrace more than just Air Superiority Fighters, Bombers, and ICBMs (not sure if they embrace the last one, or are they just stuck with it), and they need to also embrace CAS, MAC, and now UAS/UAVs. Support to us ground Soldiers is also a big deal.

Finally, I also think in most cases in the Air Force, you only matter if you are a pilot. That would like saying in the Army, you only matter if you are an Infantryman or a Tanker...

Stopping being so full of yourselves. Be proud of your branch, but learn to be real team player. Oh and, stop acting like you are business or corporation, and start acting you are in fact a branch of the Armed Forces.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2015 3:18 AM

2015-03-08T03:18:50-04:00

I do not see that at all and in the course of the last 2-3 decades the Air Force has become more combat oriented with forecasters and observers in garrison. I think a lot of it has to do with Urban Legend more than anything else.

And I did see that the Air Force, Army and Marines have done some switching out of MTIs in attempt to professionalize the forces even more. Lastly, anything that comes out of Washington seems to be divisive and unempowering by design.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2015 6:38 AM

2015-03-08T06:38:46-04:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member,
Respectfully sir, I do not know how you are getting the impression that this trend exists over such a broad range of categories. Is this a case of one's personal experiences leading to an impression? Maybe. Is this a case of a few vocal voices creating a trend on RallyPoint (which, obviously is the most accurate and complete picture of representation for any service, *rolls eyes*)? Maybe. But it certainly does not match what I have seen both in the Airmen around me and in the Airmen posting on RallyPoint.

For Airmen "vigorous enforcement of standards" does not mean what it means to other services. Airmen prioritize differently and typically don't expend the energy to go hunting for things that are not at or near the top of the list. The mission, mostly through job execution, always ranks first and priorties filter down from there. It's nothing wrong, it's different, and something that makes for a different set of strengths and weaknesses. So far, it seems to work for the Air Force based on our track record.

Ultimately it is simply not possible for the junior levels to feel comfortable enough around their seniors to confidently voice their opinions and ideas while also having the same level of respect for upper ranks seen (and demonstrated) in other service branches.

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Mar 8 at 2015 6:41 AM

2015-03-08T06:41:08-04:00

Again, I love the Air Force. Nothing comes close.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-03-08T13:33:28-04:00

From my perspective I am totally baffled at AF personnel, from being in Kuwait with them and watching Junior Airmen act like high school kids oblivious to my anger at their casual disrespect of Army Officers to Qatar watching in embarrassed stupification as a singing dancing flash mob of Airmen burst out of nowhere at the DFAC, to the Air Force CPT insisting I call him "Tom" at an Air load class (I still called him "Sir"). It truly is a different culture.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2015 2:17 PM

2015-03-08T14:17:01-04:00

Coming from the Corps to the Air Force I have seen vast differences in culture, attitude and discipline compared to the Corps. And one of the hardest things for me was dealing with the difference. But I also have seen very hard work from these same AF individuals to complete the mission at hand and get the job done. Could they be a little more fit, pay attention to proper uniform wear and be more disciplined? Yes, they could but they know their job and how to do it well. The Air Force does have their bad asses, Special Operations Weather Team (SOWT), Tactical Air Control Party (TACP), Air Force Combat Control Teams, (Combat Controller, CCT), Pararescuemen ( better known as PJs).

I am a Marine will always be a Marine but am just as proud of my time in the Air Force.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Mar 8 at 2015 2:37 PM

2015-03-08T14:37:10-04:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member, the U.S. Air Force is still the greatest in world, in my opinion. Despite whatever "cultural differences" may appear between the USAF and the other services, they still get the job done in fine fashion. I personally don't have a problem with it, other than just joking as we frequently do within this forum.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Mar 9 at 2015 9:18 AM

2015-03-09T09:18:34-04:00

During an evening discussion (scotch was involved) with an Army friend at my house, he asked essentially the same question, except without the implication there was a PROBLEM with AF culture. He asked, "why is the AF so different culturally from the Army, when we recruit from the same pool and have the same objective...defense of our nation?"

There is one difference that drives several more...the shape of the force. The Marines need the majority of their E-1s and E-2s to separate after their first tour, in order to keep their force young, fit, a little crazed, and structurally flat. They have a very squat triangle, with LOTS of E-1s and 2 and very few E-8s and 9s, and that's best for a largely infantry, low tech, low personnel investment organization. The Army is next in organizational flatness. Navy is closer to the AF in that it spends more time and money training their enlisted troops to maintain airplanes and radar and manage datalinks and other high tech gear. The Air Force spends the most per Enlisted on technical training. It's expensive, and it takes YEARS to grow a 7-level aircraft maintainer. So the AF invests in better dorms, chow, base facilities, etc in order to RETAIN them. We need to keep a larger percentage of our enlisted through 2, 3, 4 tours, because our mission is a technical one, and we invest more time and money in our people. The AF structural triangle is taller and thinner than the other services because we need to retain technical experts. That's why the Army sometimes views the Air Force as technocrats, and some Air Force people view the Army as knuckle draggers. I reject the notion the Air Force ignores violations and suggest MAJ Private RallyPoint Member may be basing his view on a few bad apples. But the more relaxed attitude, better conditions and higher retention rates are all real.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 9:31 AM

2015-03-09T09:31:21-04:00

I don't take the Air Force advertisement as competitive with the Marine Corps, Army, Navy, or Coast Guard. I take it as that service bragging that it's the best Air Force in the world . . . . and it is. People attracted to the respective services may be slightly swayed by the advertisement, but ultimately, grunts will be attracted to the Army or Marines, sailors to the Navy or Coast Guard, and wannabe pilots (had to get that in there! :) ) will join the Air Force.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 9:56 AM

2015-03-09T09:56:35-04:00

Like most have said we are a young service and still somewhat finding a identity. As the identity grows there are those that don't like the change and have a hard time adapting and other that adapt and move on.

The biggest difference in the AF and other services is the amount of responsibility we give members from the time they come into the AF. We completely expect E1-E4s to do the bulk of the work in the AF completely on their own. So we are asking these very young folks to make critical decisions and be held accountable for them. Growing up in a culture like this makes an E-3 that is doing the same job (or perceived same job) as an E-5 feel like they are talking to their peer not a superior. The lines between Amn/NCO/SNCO have been very blurred in the past and to some extent stay blurred based on the established culture. We also don't do a great job of making promotion to NCO or SNCO such a huge deal.

Lastly and especially at stateside bases you have people working together for 4-10 years. With some getting promoted over former peers and so on. This makes for difficult situations and the general fear of conflict only makes it worse.

Response by Capt Brandon Charters made Mar 9 at 2015 10:45 AM

2015-03-09T10:45:13-04:00

I actually really appreciate this issue being brought up. MAJ Private RallyPoint Member is speaking on something many of the community members may be thinking and not saying.

My take: I don't see this as the USAF having a culture problem. Couple contributing factors I think are the reasons this perception is happening:

1. I can't speak for all the services, but I feel the Air Force tends to approach disciplinary action and corrections in a much different way. Just watching the various services and their basic training videos, you can draw some pretty quick conclusions on cultural differences in how we are "raised' in the training environment. This has a direct effect on how we enforce regulations and standards as we grow. It's not that we don't enforce them, I think we tend to approach problems like this in a different way, culturally.

2. The approach you may perceive on stolen valor cases can also be partially tied to #1 above. The majority of these also seem to be Army and Marine impersonators. This doesn't mean we don't care about stolen valor, but I do know seeing your own uniform being disgraced seems to have a much different effect on an individual.

Response by SSG Wally Lawver made Mar 9 at 2015 12:39 PM

2015-03-09T12:39:38-04:00

all I know is the AF has the best DFACS,gyms, barracks etc etc ..................maybe they've coddled all these undisciplined technical whizzes:)...........

Response by MSgt Allan Vrboncic made Mar 9 at 2015 12:56 PM

2015-03-09T12:56:26-04:00

It is all about your mission. With that you have different Training and Attitudes An Airman that works the Flightline on jets will be more laid back than our Para Rescue brothers. Again, different mission. An Army Infantryman could appear lazy when compared to the Air Force's Para Rescue. Again, different mission. If you are in a branch of Service where you are in a position of being face to face with the enemy, your training and gung-ho attitude will be a whole lot different than the Army Admin Troop. Does that make sense?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 4:49 PM

2015-03-09T16:49:39-04:00

Isn't the Air Force a relatively new branch and still in the process of identifing its customs and developing a culture. The Air Force in WWII was the Army Air Corp. They are new and young but that is like the elderly man asking a child where are your scares.

Response by SSG Eddye Royal made Mar 10 at 2015 2:44 AM

2015-03-10T02:44:48-04:00

Sir, good evening I sent a copy of fake officer video to my LINKEDIN professional with CSM, LTC, and BGs along with a governor and asked with that type clout within my group, I can not see why we can not get a handle on this growing problem, or am I missing are Larger point of View?

Response by SPC Thomas Hobbs made Mar 10 at 2015 5:39 AM

2015-03-10T05:39:05-04:00

I can only answer to my personal experiences, but I have yet to meet any AF personnel with as much pride in themselves or their branch than a Soldier or Marine. I understand that my interactions are limited, in the grand scope of things, however, that is merely my observation.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2015 10:40 AM

2015-03-10T10:40:50-04:00

Based off of conversations with some of my Air Force friends, I believe that the "problem" is a culture that views the Air Force as more of a corporation focused on weapons systems than a warfighting service branch focused on Airmen. When you add a zero-defect mindset that demands perfection constantly, it handcuffs leaders. Acceptable risk becomes an alien concept, initiative is lost, and leaders become very fearful of "rocking the boat." Combine all this with a heavy dose of bureaucracy and you have a recipe for low job satisfaction, low morale, and leaders who are either more concerned with themselves or fearful of failure. Fear of failure leads to paralysis and missed oppportunities. The Force becomes stagnant with time and the individual feels that their contribution matters little. This is just my synopsis as an outsider looking in.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2015 10:58 AM

2015-03-10T10:58:26-04:00

One Military - One Team - One Fight. Because when the fecal matter hits the oscillating cooling device, we're all in it together. I just wish Airmen wouldn't give me that confused look when they see a Chief Warrant Officer. LOL!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2015 6:22 PM

2015-03-10T18:22:59-04:00

I have served in Navy and Army National Guard, and was a civilian contractor to the Air Force at Thule AB.

While at Thule I worked closely with those stationed there with the Air Force. I was shocked to witness fraternization between Officers and Enlisted in such a blatant manner. Calling each other by first names instead of by rank, some dating one another, etc. I never saw or heard of any of that while on Active Duty with either branch I served in.

Guess the excuse was that being stationed in Thule allowed for such indiscretions. I hope its not that way at other Air Force bases.

Response by SSG Earl Rowe made Mar 11 at 2015 8:32 AM

2015-03-11T08:32:17-04:00

They do not get enough firearms training. They need more time on the range.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 10:57 PM

2015-03-12T22:57:46-04:00

As a newer airman I can point out things that at a very early stage that aren't being handled properly. I wanted to join the Air Force to acquire a skill set that will not only benefit me for the time being, but for the future as well. Going into a more intellectual job like Intel I chose to go Air Force. Now, in BMT I was taught a great deal about regulations, courtesy, and respect from an MTI who went the extra mile to make sure that his trainees knew them. For that I am grateful. With that being said, I don't feel that other airmen had that luxury and are lacking the basic skills to be an outstanding airman. Without these building blocks, you can't expect newer airmen to be the respectful and hard working airmen they should be. They haven't been taught. I understand that the Air Force needs to keep their enlisted for longer periods of time but this is the military and we aren't living up to the same expectations as other branches.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 1:15 PM

2015-03-26T13:15:07-04:00

I think one's perception of this issue is 100% related to the Air Force personnel with which you have the most contact. The Air Force men that I interact with (TACP, CCT, and Pararescue) will not hesitate to call out a stolen valor case. One thing that I have an issue with, from my perception, is that when a Soldier or Marine calls someone out for stolen valor, they do it in an over-the-top confrontational manner, apparently more for the benefit of getting hits on a youtube post than to actually enforce stolen valor laws. When the guys I interact with deal with a stolen valor case, we do it by contacting the person in a very metered manner.....calmly asking them about their background. Then, we use whatever means we have to confirm their claims. If we can't, then we report them to organizations that investigate these claims. It is a tough thing to responsibly report. We have had three currently serving TACP personnel reported by Army personnel for stolen valor because they are wearing a silver star, bronze star, and a black beret in AF blues. In these three cases, there was no stolen valor....these are legitimate military bad-asses (excuse the language) who lose credit because of the "chair force" mindset held by so many in the other services. Those silver stars were submitted by Army officers and approved by the Army, not the Air Force.

Stolen valor is a serious issue, but I would argue that irresponsibly calling out some suspicious person out in a public manner, without any research, only to discover that the person you called earned everything he claimed, is potentially worse than letting someone "get away" with a stolen valor case for an extra couple of days.

Response by MSgt Paul Persson made Mar 26 at 2015 2:23 PM

2015-03-26T14:23:23-04:00

What's the problem with the Air Force culture? As a 22+ year retiree from the USAF/Reserve/Guard, I would suggest "how about a total lack of concern for anyone but yourself". I thought maybe it was just the Security Forces career field, but that's clearly NOT the case. I have seen first-hand senior NCOs treat their juniors like something less than human, and officers who have no concern for any enlisted folks. Leadership is something that is taught in mandatory coursework rather than developed by mentors who actually care about their people.

Maybe it's the fact that the mission is centered around the O's rather than the E's. In all other branches, the O may be in charge, but the E's make up the majority of the hands-on fighting force. Not so in the majority of the USAF mission sets. It's all about the O's.

I've really gotten a clearer sense of this working for the Navy for the past five years, and having USAF exchange O's around daily. The Navy O's fully trust a Chief to take charge and get the job done, but USAF O's tend to micromanage.

And let's get "heritage" straight. How can the USAF establish any form of heritage if every three to four years massive changes are made so someone in a command position gets his OPR bullets? Look at the old AFR 35-10, now AFI 36-2903, Dress and Appearance. The uniform is changed on a whim, and hell, even the collar brass on the dress blues has changed twice since I joined in 1984, from E's wearing a matte encircled "US", to chrome no-circle US (which used to be O's only in matte), to chrome encircled "US". And whoever thought the ABU uniform was a good idea? Talk about instilling laziness! Airmen don't even have to break out an iron any more, just wash and wear! And God forbid any of us should have to ever shine a pair of combat boots, I mean, that requires self discipline.

I remember attending Patriot Protector back in 2001, and hearing a few older NCOs commenting, "This is not MY Security Forces career field any more". I think it's more than that, it's a culture of constant change that creates a void in the areas of tradition, stability, and trust. Then again, maybe I'm just one of the disgruntled, old, retired guys who say, "this isn't my Air Force any more".

Response by TSgt Wesley R. Forsberg made Mar 26 at 2015 2:29 PM

2015-03-26T14:29:03-04:00

I agree with you about the lax set of standards the Air Force has had in the last decade. I am a recently retired Air Force junior NCO and I have seen a decline of it throughout my career. The culture in the majority of the Air Force is of a "buddy, buddy" culture and senior ranking individuals, going all the way down to the lowest enlisted pay grade, do not want to be that guy who is the regulation "Nazi." I myself has stressed out throughout my career trying to enforce standards and regulations, all to have my legs cut from under me by a peer or someone of higher rank. I definitely saw a major shift in the culture of the Air Force when the Iraq and Afghanistan wars where in full swing and they needed people bad, they just pushed through people who probably should not have graduated training at any levels, and left the supervisors at their first duty station to deal with it. I also see the issues today with the "entitlement" culture and the "it's all about me" which these younger members are brought into and they bring that into a military lifestyle and culture and demand change and to my amazement, they get it. I understand that the Air Force is the youngest branch of the services, but we need to try to find and keep an identity for more then a year or two. I understand that we are not the Army or Marines, but that does not mean we cannot have the military lifestyle and culture those branches breed into us at a young age in our careers. The only times it seems like we are actually in the military is going through our professional military education courses, or when it suites us when the situation is in our favor. We just need to get rid of the "hug me" culture and get back to the brass tacks of the idea of what the military is and the main mission of any branch of the armed forces, which is to kill people and break things. Hold people to the standard, no matter what rank or position they are in, and be up front and honest with them, if you are in a supervisory capacity, you are not their friend, act accordingly to your NCO or supervisory responsibilities. If the Air Force stays on the current course it is, we will soon loose all shreds of a military culture and become more of a joke within the DoD.

Response by SrA Erin Hood made Mar 26 at 2015 3:37 PM

2015-03-26T15:37:54-04:00

Thank you for this question.

Although I was only a junior enlisted Airman, I do still have a brother in active duty who is a Squadron Commander with a line number for Lt. Col.

We chatted last week about the IG inspection Teams and how they have changed their approach to inspections. I found their new approach encouraging and positive.

When I was active duty (91-95) I was Stationed at Malmstrom AFB as a Flight Security Controller and was responsible for controlling entry and access to our Minuteman II priority A resources among other duties related to that unit.

Nuclear Surety was one of the many policies applied and was extremely stringent with regards to performance of duty and compliance with established procedures. When the IG came to visit, our wing had already been under 6 months of additional training in preparation for the inspection. This created an atmosphere of low morale because the Officers at the Wing and Group levels flatly stated that they expected the highest performance rating for the IG team.

In essence, The Colonel wanted a perfect rating "or else". This obviously made our jobs unnecessarily more difficult and we troops felt demeaned for having to play a role in "the dog and pony show".

From the Squadron Commander level and up, there was a social disconnect, as we did not feel supported by them even though our efforts were doubled and we actually did achieve a Best In Air Force award for two consecutive years.

That Top Performance rating only solidified the old approach and had adverse effects on all the troops and their families. We felt that it was not mission critical, nor did it contribute to the accomplishment of our mission statement. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Today, the IG is almost invisible. They arrive without notice, setup an operational space of about 600 square feet, and focus primarily on the leadership personnel. They would look further into an organization's operations if they saw a flag at the upper level. This had a very positive effect on morale. If your unit was doing a good job, you were left alone.

Another aspect that you may find pertinent is that the funding has been diminished to the point of requiring personnel to give of themselves even more than what is required in their mission. I would consider this to be more the primary concern for the Air Force over the topic of IG and inspections.

I have been separated for almost 20 years now, but during my enlistment the Air Force we had Total Quality Management policies and procedures across the entire branch. At that time, it was the only branch using said policy, I don't know about present day operations.

TQM was the only way that we could "Do more with less" by focusing on procedurally based orientation instead of outcome based approach. Quality Awareness was mandatory, and for good reason, "It works, and you need it".

Continuous Improvement Process policies allowed the person who owns the process the ability to change it, (within the parameters of course) and meant that our doctrine was a living one. Improvements were rewarded and subsequently standardized.

On a separate note, I has a friend who is a retired MSgt in the same field of Security. Our discussions reveal that "the troops feel overly entitled and don't have the same dedication to service and duty" that was present 20 years ago. I would find this example equivalent to what "Millennials" represent today, and I think it is truly disconcerting.

I don't know if this feedback was helpful to you, but I hope that our Active Duty leaders may find value for their own units.

Thank you for your service.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 3:43 PM

2015-03-26T15:43:58-04:00

MAJ Hoiland,
Sir,
The next time you are on an Air Force Base or better yet, deployed somewhere find and ask some one to attend a "Stand Up" meeting. Just go and be a fly on the wall. Try to go to an AMXS or MXS meeting. When you walk out of that meeting you will have a white knuckled, terrifyingly crystal clear appreciation of The Problem With The Air Force Culture. Decorum prevents me from saying more.
By your leave Sir,
Sincerely,
//SIGNED//

Response by SMSgt Bryan Raines made Mar 26 at 2015 4:15 PM

2015-03-26T16:15:30-04:00

There is an old joke I heard from and Army friend back in 1983 at my first duty station. When asked as to why the Air Force has better facilities; the soldier said that It was how the two different services constructed or built their Posts/Bases. The Army builds its mission essential facilities first and when they run out of money are told that there are no funds available for the clubs, PX, golf course etc. Conversely the Air Force builds its clubs, golf course, housing, BX etc first and when they run out funds they say they didn't have enough money to build the flight line and runway. Since the base would not be operational without the flight line and runway then the Air Force gets the money to complete the base. The thing he was getting at was the Air Force looked at quality of life more so than the other services did. That was true in the early 80's and was still true when my youngest stepson was in the Army in 2005.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 4:32 PM

2015-03-26T16:32:32-04:00

I've served w/Army and recently w/in a joint operations unit. I don't see a difference in enforcing standards between individual services. I don't know what posts/threads you've been reading, but I haven't ever heard "why bother" when it comes to enforcing AF standards. I'm an 18yr (almost) Airman, with prior enlisted service. If I did come across a supervisor saying that, I'd correct them quickly.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 4:36 PM

2015-03-26T16:36:13-04:00

There are a few problems with the Air Force right now, but addressing this one directly, it is not that we don't care about enforcing our standards. I am a SNCO and have been in over 17 years. I do fly for a living, but don't hate me for it! Our standards, regulations, and policies are extremely important, not only in the flying community, but across the Air Force. The problem I see is that our leadership sets the example and doesn't follow policy. If they come across something they don't like, they either override it or go around it. Also, we have become a very politically correct organization. As a SNCO my hands have been tied numerous times in trying to enforce standards by my leadership. We were actually told at one point if we see an airman doing something wrong, like wearing headphones in uniform, to let it go because we may offend them and it wasn't worth the trouble it would cause if they complained to their superiors. Seriously??? So this is probably where the why even try mentality comes in. We can't write paperwork without leadership approval, we have to be extremely politically correct when counseling troops because if they claim we offended then it's our career on the line, and we aren't trusted to rate on our troops and give them less than stellar ratings when they deserve them because that's just not how the system works. And these are all just my personal experiences. I can't imagine what else is being done across the force.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 4:44 PM

2015-03-26T16:44:37-04:00

I feel like I did not have a great understanding of the Military in general until I deployed. I truly feel like it takes a lot for other services to take the Air Force seriously. I am not sure if part of it comes out of jealousy or ignorance or possibly both? Maybe neither. When I say ignorance, I don't mean it in a negative way. There are plenty of things that other services do in normal operations that make me scratch my head. I use to say negative things, but I have since learned to stop being ignorant myself and learn something from what others do. I know that the AF usually has better DFACs. Not my fault. I feel like AF quality of life is usually better than the other services. Again, not my fault. I chose to join the AF for my own reasons and you chose to join your service for yours. I don't give you a hard time and try to personally degrade you and your choices, don't do that to me.

That is a long way of saying that one of my biggest issues with morale and all that is having to deal with the ignorance/jealousy/etc. of the other services.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 4:56 PM

2015-03-26T16:56:45-04:00

I don't know, whenever I see soldiers marching by I always find it surprisingly disappointed to see how lazy the army is with drill. And I've seen some pretty lazy army uniforms and customs and courtesies. I used to work on army bases as a civilian, and as an airmen I always payed a keen eye to the soldiers since I just looked like another civilian contractor who obviously isn't in the military with that crazy beard ;) I think it's all perspective. I guess you sir see some things one way from your point of view but from my point of view down at the bottom I see the Air Force enforcing standards. As far as stolen valor goes, every airmen I know would sooner hang someones butt from a flag pole before they would let them steal valor! Haha.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 4:59 PM

2015-03-26T16:59:37-04:00

One thing that could be a driver of Air Force Culture that makes it different than the other branches is who is the front line warrior. In the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard the enlisted members are the warriors who are supported and enabled by the officer corps that gives direction. The Air Force is not organized that way.

In the Air force, the aircrews which are predominantly officers are the front line echelon and they are supported and enabled by the enlisted corps (Security and Special Operations forces are the obvious exception). Meanwhile, that enlisted corps also receives direction from non-aircrew officers.

This means that your average Air Force enlisted member is expected to have more intellectual capital than your average soldier or marine. And *that* breeds a greater degree of individualism.

With regard to changing the rules. It has been my experience (others may have a different experience) that aircrew think they are always right all the time. And they generally think the rules do not apply to them. When they break the rules nobody calls them on it or keeps them accountable. After a while nobody even tries anymore.

Response by SMSgt Michael Carl made Mar 26 at 2015 5:16 PM

2015-03-26T17:16:34-04:00

In my humble yet professional opinion, I think the culture in the USAF is experiencing a decline in promoting unit cohesion, pride and camaraderie due to many factors.

My professional opinion is based on 24 years of service (1990-2015) with 13 of them overseas. My experience is based on nine assignments and four deployments. I have had three Joint assignments with two on the Joint Staff. I have been deployed with JSOC and SOCOM and worked primarily with Soldiers during those deployments.

Leadership: There seems to be more emphasis on self-promotion than mentorship. NCO's should concentrate more on training their subordinates, holding them to standard, and promoting a sense of pride.

Evaluations/Feedback Process and Boards: Places more emphasis on self glory rather than team accomplishment. Feedbacks are not properly monitored across the service and members often go an entire rating period without one. Some can even go years without a proper feedback. Evaluations are inflated because promotion points can stack up. Evaluations are often written by the member. I know of many who started writing their EPRs as TSgt. Many supervisors do not know how to write an EPR which hurts their subordinates in comparison to having a supervisor who can write very well or better yet, engaged in the subordinates career.

PT Standards: Unit PT should be the standard across the board. NCOs should work with their subordinates who struggle. Officer's should promote and lead the NCOs efforts. There should never be a surprise. And we should never let an Airman out-to-dry because they failed a PT test.

Deployments: We deploy our members in 1's and 2's. We take Airman from one unit and scatter them across the AOR at various locations. Although there is a great benefit in this by gaining experience and learning from new sources, it leaves little support when the member returns home to a unit and has few people who understand what they experienced because they weren't there too.

Unit Pride: When I came into the AF in 1990, I experienced unit cohesion via team sports, unit activities, unit field trips and unit pride. It was unheard of to participate on a different unit's team because they had better athletes. It was expected to go to events and cheer for your unit. It was expected to show up...at picnics, unit holiday parties, AF ball, promotion and award ceremonies. I remember a time when my fellow Airmen were proud to wear their unit patch or unit cover or unit T-shirt.

The USAF is still the best in the world and the Airmen are still highly motivated and proud to serve. Yet, I am sure more than half would say they joined to be part of a team. Being part of the AF team is one thing....but being part of a unit team can energize the Airman and promote unit cohesion. When we see unit pride and unit cohesion, we see respect as a fighting force, for what we bring to the Joint table and for being dedicated to protecting the country just as a Soldier, Marine or Sailor is.

Response by SrA Marshall Dotson made Mar 26 at 2015 5:24 PM

2015-03-26T17:24:08-04:00

Army response....never in airforce...shouldn't comment on something you don't know ...I'm ex airforce.......sir

Response by CCMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 5:51 PM

2015-03-26T17:51:00-04:00

Actually, sir, that question does disrespect. It insinuates that we are the problem.

Stolen Valor: why speak up for that when our service members are targeted for 'valor issues'? Example: a few years ago there were a pair of Technical Sergeants that took a lot of flak for getting Bronze Stars. One happened to be a finance specialist. Ironically enough, she was doing a Major's job. A great deal of people decided that she was not worthy of such an award because she didn't have skin in the game.

There is a larger issue here. The issue is that there are quite a few that discount contributions that our Airman make. Some of our E-1 through E-4s do a job that are not available to other service members at that same rank. We join this service because the job chooses us. We can better affect the outcome of a situation from where we sit as opposed to where you sit.

We also have quite a few AFCS that are for officers in other services. For instance, it used to be that a weapons director position was a rated officers job. Our enlisted controllers sometimes sit side by side with officer counterparts and they are the ones 'calling the shots' (pun intended).

What about drone crews? They have a critical job to do. And as a service, we are getting pretty damn good about it. But, most incentives for that kind of job don't exist or have been repealed. We need them; we are burning them out...and the detractors yell 'foul'. Again, the reason they yell foul? No skin in the game. If someone bothered to ask them, they'd find out that job is not as sanitary as you think.

Now, if you think we are not capable of putting skin in the game, I think our TACPs, PJs, CCTs as well as SPs would take exception to that.

I noticed you have US Army Reserves after your rank and job. As a reservist myself, I can say that in the last 15 years, the attitude toward reservist of a color has changed. Well, it took a lot of hard work and the country relying on us to change that. Thing have changed a lot from the weekend warrior attitude that used to be prevalent.

Standards: Well, everyone has their opinion on this don't they? I will tell you that I've seen more Army personnel in the airports stateside wearing creative uniform combinations (glasses on the back of their head, civilian winter coats, etc) . I've also seen quite a few at restaurants at night, when they should either be in civilian gear or the proper military wear. I've had more conversations with them, then I have any other service. That's me personally and my experiences. However, there isn't any service that doesn't have a problem with this. To me, it's more of a generational issue than it is a service issue.

On the other hand, let's look at the pictures from WWII, Korea, and Vietnam era and play the 'spot the reg violation game'. Nothing has changed.

Violations: With respect to the 'eff it!' attitude. I am not so sure there is a case there either. I guess that I have a bonus having been joint my entire career. But, there are duffel bags in every branch and at every pay grade.

Mavericks: I think what is often offered up for the Air Force is our maverick/cavalier attitude. Well, sir, we embrace that. It's part of our DNA. Some of our best Generals were mavericks. They go against the grain of everything the Army stands for...Billy Mitchell, Hap Arnold, Curtis LeMay, Doolittle, and Robin Olds.

The fact of the matter is, it's a first world problem and until we can all get on the same page and appreciate what every service contributes, then the mission will suffer.

Response by PO2 Mark Saffell made Mar 26 at 2015 6:00 PM

2015-03-26T18:00:07-04:00

First off I'm Navy and I will tell you that the Commanding Officer of a ship at sea is as close to a monarch as possible. During my time the CO of The Enterprise could put you in the brig for 30 days and on bread and water for 15 and there was NO appeal. I was and NCO and I have seen other discussions on here about saluting jr officers. I guess it was different in my day. ALL Officers got a salute and we took pride in our salute. So much so I wasn't above questioning an officer that didn't put as much effort in returning the salute as I did in giving it. I deserved the same effort I made.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 6:07 PM

2015-03-26T18:07:02-04:00

The AF has been searching for its place in its own mind. In my 22+ years, we've gone through so many changes keeping track is difficult. Each Chief of Staff comes into the job looking to improve the culture and mindset of Airmen. All that really seems to do is confuse them - regardless of how long they've been in the blue suit.

I was raised in an Army family and my nephew is a West Point grad. So I've seen how deep those traditions run. But, the Army's been at it for hundreds of years. Compare that to the AF's life of 68 years. We spent the first decade or two shedding our Army history/heritage and then set about developing our own culture. So we're obviously still a work in progress.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Mar 26 at 2015 6:26 PM

2015-03-26T18:26:02-04:00

Perhaps we are more tolerant, introspective, willing to investigate. That is a byproduct of higher intelligence - a greater need to question and understand

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 7:14 PM

2015-03-26T19:14:24-04:00

Lack of trust. when you can't trust someone will get the job done right or do as you ask them to it seems to affect the whole culture of who cares anyways they're just going to f*** it all up anyways,morale ends up in the crapper, and then people just don't care what rules are broken so long as no one dies and they don't have to deal with the bs. Especially when you can't go to higher ups about it because you can't trust them to do anything about it or have your back. I've gotten really lucky in getting a couple really good supervisors who have gone to bat for me when shits hit the fan in some situations that found myself caught up in.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 7:22 PM

2015-03-26T19:22:17-04:00

I understand I am an E-4 and have limited expierence with the Army and Marines, however i do know that every branch is pivotal to accomplishing the missions we carry out. We are a joint force and their will be competition between the branches. Now lets get to the mission of each branch.

The Army is the ground and pound specialists that know how to clear a building. Does the average airman know that? No. Why? Because that is not what we do. In truth I was at Moron Ab and a Marine almost stabbed himself playing with his knife trying to show off. At first i was like the marines are idiots, but then i realize its a constant battle to look the toughest. When youre told you are the best you start beliving it. He was trying to intimidate one of the Airman and we just chalked uit up to drunken misbehavior.

The Marines are great at what they do as well, be it Land or Sea or what ever the mission may be i know i can count on them to get the job done. Yes they are more strict on customs and courtesys than the average Airman but try to see it this way.

In a combat expierence you need to know who is leading and when someone says duck you duck as it could be lifesaving. In the airforce we don't deal with direct combat as much so we are taught to question for the greater good if things don't seem right. Its not because we don't belive in the standards set forth by leaders and the chain of command, its because there is always a more efficient way to run things. Air Force is still evolving into a greater power that has a drasticly different mission than any other branch. Does this make us better? NO. Does this encompass different peramiters as to how missions are caried out? Yes. Now the stolen Valor thing gets me absoloutly heated. I strongly dislike people who claim to be something they are not. At the same time, does it hit me as emotionally as someone who has been in combat and lost a close friend in the line of fire? No, because that emotional response isn't something i have been a part of. Not to mention you rarely see men and women dressed as Air Force for stolen valor for a good reason. We are widely viewed as weak and a lesser branch. Chair Force is a common term i hear from other branches. As long as the army knows that we are to them as the marines are to the navy and understands just how much part we have in our missions is all i care about. I know i enforce all standards to younger airman and i upkeep my end of the deal because I love my country. Don't judge the masses by the few that feel like weekend warriors on their keyboards responding to Youtube videos, their are bad apples in every branch.

End rant.

SrA Price, Orion

Response by TSgt Lars Eilenfeld made Mar 26 at 2015 8:20 PM

2015-03-26T20:20:21-04:00

The problem is AF Officers view themselves as CEO's it's more corporate than military, The regulations are enforced dependent of your rank, unless you really screw up, for instance if you do something that warrants a high decoration you will not receive it if you are not above a certain rank. Higher ranking NCO's rarely get their hands dirty yet they are expected to manage the day to day activities of a career field they haven't actually done the work in for years. As for the group cohesion within the AF you cannot associate with anyone more than one rank above or below you, so in essence your respect for leadership is demanded and many times never earned by the leadership. In a nutshell many times you do not feel like your leaders have your back but demand you cover theirs. This can create a toxic environment. Besides didn't you hear according to the Supreme Court the Air Force is Un-Constitutional

Response by Spc 1 J W. made Mar 26 at 2015 8:21 PM

2015-03-26T20:21:40-04:00

You are correct! Several bored Army officers should not take a small sample of a small sample and extrapolate that to come up with a service wide stereotype. The small sample being Air Force personnel on RP and the next small sample is Air Force personnel on RP that actually comment on RP topics (to the bewilderment of several bored Army Officers I might add!). As others have stated here compared to the other branches the Air Force is the youngest military branch and sometimes they search too hard for history & heritage. But I believe that today's Air Force heritage begins before the 1947 split from the Army. The B-17s in the European Campaign, the B-29s in the Pacific Campaign, the Doolittle Raiders, the Tuskegee Airman are all part of the heritage of the US Air Force. Every branch has personnel that don't meet the standard, behave badly or don't wear the uniform with pride. I don't judge a whole branch based on some bad apples.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 8:44 PM

2015-03-26T20:44:28-04:00

As a Chief Petty Officer in the US Navy, I can tell you one thing, that I feel, is a huge contributing factor to (Mis)perceptions. I have served along side Marines, Soldiers, Airman, and Coasties in my time. Most of what comes of today spans across ALL branches, and not just the Air Force. The foundation of all of the bad we see within each other's ranks is simply the times we were all raised in. Back when my father was a child, you were raised to respect people, especially women and elders. They were taught to say "please" and "thank you". They were taught to hold doors for women. They were disciplined at home and in public and private schools. Over the decades, a lot of that has been lost, and not necessarily completely the fault of the parents. Also, when my father was a child, women did not work (as much as now) outside the home. They took care of the home and the family while the man of the house made the provisions. There was ALWAYS at least one parent at home at all times. In more recent times, a lot of households have both parents working away from home and divorce and broken families are a lot more "common" than in yesteryear. That's where it STARTS. With the constant intrusion of government and the public at large, in general, complete strangers spend more time indirectly (or directly) raising everyone's children for them, as if they know best. Political correctness is another huge thorn in the side of discipline and respect because you can't tell someone how "jacked up" they are without getting feelings hurt. The younger generation who are now filling in the ranks were not given a lot of the same tools the older generations were given to build upon. Due to the absence of one or both parents, the children learned no discipline, and when they got into trouble, they showed no respect to any authoritative figureheads. It has begun spilling into all branches. NOW we delve into how they are trained and reconditioned in the military. Each branch has a specific purpose, and unless one has actually worked closely with or even alongside brothers/sisters in the other branches, it is difficult to fully understand the "other" component's specific purpose. That being said, a HUGE factor in everyone's success in the military is discipline. Each branch has a different level of discipline required to get a job done. The "ground pounders" (being Marines AND Soldiers) require FAR more discipline than any other branch, or the likelihood of someone getting killed or seriously injured in the presence of their enemies is VERY high. The Navy also requires discipline, but not to the same high degree as the Army and the Marine Corps. Sure, there are still inherent dangers in the Navy which could get people killed, but let's face it. We ALLY know which branches demand more. The things we all have in common is that we all bleed Red, White, and Blue, and we all have the same end goal: keeping America free. Bear in mind that this entire observation is a very broad and general observation and does not mean that every single instance I have mentioned is true of everyone or every situation, but they are true for a very large overall majority.

Response by MSgt David Lucas made Mar 26 at 2015 9:54 PM

2015-03-26T21:54:51-04:00

I am retired Air Force and had the privilege of working with all branches. The culture problem exists within each branch. When I worked with the Army there was a definite misunderstanding of what we were trained to do. The Army makes the mistake of comparing a soldier to an Airman, which is wrong. We are molded from two entirely different templates. I went to Airborne School at Fort Benning and received gigs everyday for having my US Army spelled US Air Force. I totally got it! I dealt with it performed my extra PT and pushed forward. I had no problem with the rivalry. It's sort of the same problem we have throughout the World. We just do not get the culture.

Response by SSgt Zachary Hunter made Mar 26 at 2015 10:09 PM

2015-03-26T22:09:05-04:00

In my opinion, standards went out the window when we switched from BDU's to ABU's. Kids (E-1/E-4) have no idea what it's like to iron your uniform every night. Polish your boots 2-3 times a week. Setting aside an hour to take care of your uniform. It sucked having to do that, but the pride you had with a sharp crease and boots so shiny they were mirrors, was irreplaceable.

Response by SSgt Mark Steed made Mar 26 at 2015 10:39 PM

2015-03-26T22:39:48-04:00

When I was a crew chief we were expected to keep our aircraft mission ready and safe no matter how many hours we had been on the flight line. I worked very few days that were less than 12 hours and I once worked a straight 36 hours with no breaks. Our jets still flew and were in tip top shape. The goal of the USAF is not to build every airman into a bad ass. Rather, the mission is to always be ready to go and defeat all enemies of the United States and rule the air. Thus, the USAF needs the smartest, most technically proficient people. It would serve no purpose to emphasize the war fighting capabilities possessed by a Marine or a Soldier if it was actually counter productive to the mission of complete command of the sky, strategic nuclear deterrence, maintaining a presence in space and in the cyber warfare arena, etc.. When considering the culture of the USAF one must consider the modern mission. It is a matter of global security that the USAF stay cutting edge in it's technical capability to wage war against the most advanced war fighting capabilities known to man. All considerations must be subordinate to the mission including cultural differences possessed by the military branches who's responsibilities are to own the ground and the sea. Having a uniform military culture across all branches is not logical unless it somehow it serves the ultimate goal of defending the constitution of the United States and the citizens of the United States. BTW, I totally appreciate and respect all military members who serve and have served.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2015 10:47 PM

2015-03-26T22:47:57-04:00

AIR FORCE culture? Too many blue-bloods with to much rank and not enough sense; Head in the clouds not enough oxygen. Too much like a civilian rather than a military organization.
We need Marine Generals to run the Air Force.

Response by SFC Michael Peterson made Mar 26 at 2015 11:17 PM

2015-03-26T23:17:21-04:00

I can sum it up in two words: "political correctness". The Air Force isn't the only service marching to that drum beat though. I saw plenty in the Army too.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2015 12:40 AM

2015-03-27T00:40:07-04:00

As a prior navy, current usaf service member I would have to say that it's actually the opposite. Our rules guidelines for both work and dress and appearance are absolutely held as high of a standard as other branches. As far as the I give up approach to dirt bag airmen just like any other branch depends on your career field. I'm a crew chief and I can tell you now that we don't get away with anything like that at all

Response by TSgt Liza Kazee made Mar 27 at 2015 2:07 AM

2015-03-27T02:07:22-04:00

In my opinion the Air Force lacks the respect from our sister services. While I realize that my time in the AF may vary greatly from others, I learned quickly that our sister services wanted to see us prove ourselves before we were thought to be equals. I deployed twice during my time in the AF, both times in Army billets that the AF had volunteered to cover. The first was with an infantry unit who wanted to see if I could carry my own weight before I was accepted. The second was with an Airborne unit who assumed they knew more than me and could treat me like a younger troop. Once they realized this wasn't my first rodeo and my rank in the AF was due just as much respect as that of my Army counterparts, life became simpler for us all. I demanded respect and hard work from those who worked for me. I sent airmen home for having uniforms out of regs, missing belts, in need of hair cuts. I worked out with those who needed help with their PT test and I counseled those who needed it. I also found myself injured and flown home early during my second deployment. I found myself struggling with PTSD and the fact that my military career was over. I continue to find myself having to explain or prove that my injuries, my trauma are just as significant as those of any other military member. So yes my response is that the other branches lack respect for the AF, even when we're the ones risking our lives for them.

Response by PO1 Cleve Ikaika Waiwaiole made Mar 27 at 2015 2:59 AM

2015-03-27T02:59:34-04:00

Why does the Air Force always have the best golf courses =D

Response by Lt Col Rick Helmer made Mar 27 at 2015 5:11 AM

2015-03-27T05:11:24-04:00

There is nothing wrong with Air Force Culture - at its core is the same tenacious warrior mind set you'll find in any U.S. Military service it just that it's mission focus much like the Navy is "platform centric" and as such the majority of recruits by necessity must be technicians that culture, in my experience is different than, than the infantry services of the Marine Corps and Army who, despite technological advances are still being asked to engage the enemy face-to-face as a matter of relative routine, though as Iraq and Afghanistan have shown all services had to step-up and engage the enemy on the ground with Air Force and Navy personnel running convoys and taking on the more traditional infantry role of the combat of arms. As a former Marine Corporal and now a retired Air Force Lt Col I appreciate the difference between what some would call an "infantry service" mentality and that of a more platform centric, "corporate service". Still, while I will take issue with anyone who would say any U. S. Military service is "better" than another, my 31 years of service has a number of encounters with Air Force personnel whose failure to respond appropriately to authority, the chain of command or demonstrate uniform or customs and courtesies was to put it mildly disturbing, I can also say I seen similar behavior in the Army and Navy...only the Marines haven't let me down it this regard. Maybe more disturbing is that in all services I've seen a disturbing trend in leadership lacking in integrity and an almost rabid unquestioning of unlawful orders when somes career was tnnocent life's where at steak

Response by SMSgt Thomas V. made Mar 27 at 2015 8:46 AM

2015-03-27T08:46:45-04:00

Air Force culture, I have been a member of the Air Force and Reserves for over 27 years and I am here to tell you we do not have a “culture” issue in as much as we have an identity issue. This has really begun to show its evil head in the Joint Operations realm. The Air Force top leadership operating in the joint environment in my opinion continually getting “beat up” by their big brother counterparts at the table, your force isn’t “fit, lacks discipline”. The response to this is “I’ll show you who isn’t disciplined or fit”. They then focus valuable and limited resources into programs that are “thrown together”. The misunderstood part of the process is based in operational differences. The Air Force primary function is to fly aircraft, the base and all its personnel work together to “keep aircraft flying”. This is much different than the Army and Marines who have a majority of their personnel assigned to infantry or field units. Those of you in the Army and Marines will understand when you look at the air units within your branches. If you ever worked closely with the air your air wings you call them undisciplined “milk drinkers” as well. Why you may ask? Its mission focus, in the aviation world we want our personnel focused on flight safety. If a tank or vehicle mechanic misses a step in a technical data during a repair the equipment will break down and have to pull over to the side of the road. If an aircraft mechanic doesn’t follow technical data a plane falls from the sky and we lose human life and a very expensive asset. Army and Marines discipline focuses on life and limb of soldiers and Marines in the field. Life and limb of our brother and sisters in arms is our collective bonding point, which is where our focus must be. You get your discipline through rigorous physicality and never question authority attitude. The Air Force must maintain culture to safely and effectively launch and recover aircraft.
The Air Force in the last 15 years has pushed fitness into their culture, not a bad thing. However, it’s not a high fitness standard as compared to their big brothers. The leadership still can’t standup to big brother. Air Force fitness is enough to keep our members at just enough of fitness level as to not be a danger to themselves or others when deployed to these hot spots around the World and allow us the time to keep our aircraft flying; are we Soldier or Marine fit? No, however, our special operators are. A unit where fitness and discipline is required is maintained at the level required, just as in your branches. As I said before you all look down on your “air units” as not up to the general standard. I was deployed to a large air operations base during Desert Storm; we had Naval, Air Force and Marine air units on one base. They brought Army and Marine field units in for “R and R” and the fights started when the field troops witnessed the conditions their air wing counterparts were living in as compared to the field conditions they were living in. The Air Force leadership needs to stop trying to impress their big brother and focus on their mission and accomplishing it safely, technical discipline and attention to detail is Air Force culture. The next time you see sloppy Air Force member remember grease doesn’t wash out of a uniform as easily as dirt. Our stresses are different as they are unique. I don’t look up to my joint partners as I don’t expect to be looked down upon from my “big brother”. We are all in the same fight, we just do it differently! Respect each other and stop the bickering or maybe the next time I arrive at your unit to load you and your shit into my C-17 to transport you to the “fight” I will close my door and tell you to march there to increase your fitness and discipline! I love and respect the contributions of any man or woman wearing our nation’s uniform, let’s just respect our differences and KILL the enemy!!

Response by MSgt Michael Vassallo made Mar 27 at 2015 8:48 AM

2015-03-27T08:48:11-04:00

I do not know how much things have changed since I retired. I was in Navy JRTOC in High School as well as the Civil Air Patrol Cadet program. I was also Active Duty Air Force from 1975 - 1997, retired as a Master Sergeant. Most of my career was spend working on Tactical Command and Control Communications System. I also spent 8 years working with the Joint Interoperability Test Center at Ft Huachuca AZ. I learned a lot about the various services History, Traditions, and Culture. I also found that the Air Force Ground support units were proud of our own History and traditions while not around as long started to develop our own culture and standards. I know we pushed pride in our image and I for one still push traditions that I learned in the Air Force. Some from the old Army Air Force, Army Air Corps, Army Signal Avation days. Some of the newer traditions that were AF unique. I for one as a retiree still push for the respect for the flag and have no problems telling a Store owner, Home owner or whoever that their flag is unservicable and needs to be replaced, also remind them to fly it properly. I check everyone's claims, especially when the wear a uniform that isn't quite right. Don't care which service. I served and continue to believe that we will pick on eachother as to which service is better, but in the end when we are deployed all that matters is the Red White and Blue we serve and I always did my best to make sure everyone made it home. I believe in doing what I can to make the world better as a tribute to those that did not make it home. It is part of how I deal with the memories, I prefer to remember the lives and things we did together than deal on the death. I do not believe it is not the service as much as the individuals, I can say the same for some of the other services. Personally I do not think the younger servicemen of today have the same values and standards as us older folks and their lies the issue. I saw a Specialist in uniform walking in the park without a cover. I ask where it was and was told to mind my own F-ing business. Again not the service just the individuals.

Mike Vassallo
MSgt USAF Retired

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2015 9:50 AM

2015-03-27T09:50:08-04:00

It irritates me to have a MAJ in the Army post a provocative headline about the Air Force and then sit back watch the Airmen try to critique themselves based on critiques in previous posts he's already read. I'm critiquing the fact that the Air Force has a robust culture of critiquing itself? That seems self-evident.

We are great at what we do. Not just good, stellar. But that's no knock on the Army, I've deployed with them, they are excellent at what they do, God Bless them. Same for our Navy and Marine brothers and sisters. All the Airmen who responded have some excellent points about Air Force culture, but they are rising above the initial post in both tone and substance. Nice work.

Are Airmen more vocal about what they want to improve, perhaps yes, and that is a function of our culture. But there is nothing "wrong" with us. Soldier on brother.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2015 10:39 AM

2015-03-27T10:39:58-04:00

I have a different cultural experience being aircrew. As a whole we tend to be more laid back and less serious but still respectful of our officers. However I am currently battling with no respect for rank in my section. While I don't expect airmen to address me as MSgt Foley I do expect them to listen to me when I tell them to do something. Instead I get called mom, told they will do it anyway, or ignored. When i talk to my peers they are equally frustrated, but when i talk to my senior leadership they laugh and make excuses like, " boys will be boys". It seems to come from airmen under 25 and is most noticeable in airmen under 22. They take their cues from the Senior leadership and when there's no punishment they look at it as acceptable behavior.

Response by TSgt Michael Williamson made Mar 27 at 2015 10:53 AM

2015-03-27T10:53:18-04:00

When did the USAF stop "vigorously enforcing standards"?

If I had a complaint, it would be that such standards are enforced to an extreme.

My complaint about the Army (Having served in both branches), is that the Army is willing to waive or amend any standard on an officer's signature.

Response by Cadet PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2015 4:29 PM

2015-03-27T16:29:44-04:00

In Afjrotc the instructors and military curriculum talked about the mission of the Air Force is to Maintain Air superiority and maintain its technologically advanced warfare edge over the enemy. As cadets they taught us to also treat each rank as an equal in respect and that the rank has its privlages not that the Air Force is easy and nice they want to maintain a professional respect towards all ranks and not look down an airmen just because he is an E-1 And yes not all Airmen are army infantry fit but all the airmen I've met in my life are in regulation on their regulation their job also is to maintain electronic superiority and air superiority not infantry killing machines. All branches have their culture and the air force has developed a strict and professional culture and every branch will have its own identity to get the job done for its sole purpose.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 27 at 2015 4:32 PM

2015-03-27T16:32:31-04:00

I served in the Air Force for 22 years--16 years in operations as a pilot. I also worked as a Department of the Army Civilian (DAC) and as a government contractor. In the contractor job I worked with Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, and Coast Guard members. I saw dedicated professionals from every service.

One thing makes the Air Force much different from the other Services--although the aviation branches of the Army and Department of the Navy have similarities. The Air Force front line combat personnel are mostly officers. In all the other services, they are mostly junior enlisted. It takes a different force structure and leadership style to lead a combat force composed almost entirely of college educated, technically proficient, critical thinking, young men and women. I'm not discounting the value of the Soldiers, Marines, and Sailors. They are the essential fight forces of their Services and have my eternal respect. Additionally, air combat isn't up close and personal--you might never actually see the enemy you kill. The types of weapons and training necessary to be a good fighter pilot and that necessary to be a good infantry or armor soldier are very different. This fundamental difference explains many of the differences in the Services. It effects leadership, doctrine, historical perspective, weapons, and personnel programs.

Response by SGT John Gabler made Mar 27 at 2015 5:01 PM

2015-03-27T17:01:47-04:00

From my experience as a young army soldier that did 12 months on Lower AFB. I would say politics. From what I could discern from friend that I had made, the politics start from the get go.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2015 4:03 AM

2015-03-28T04:03:35-04:00

As a veteran with 22 years of total service and four combat operations, I am proud of my Air Force. MAJ Holland, I take your question seriously as I currently oversee a joint service team while perorming the Airman's role. We all joke about perceived weaknesses in each others' services, but I can tell you Marines and Soldiers love our A-10, and all of us lament when one of our own makes the headlines for failing to maintain standards. I don't see this as Air Force-specific though there are several recent examples from missileers cheating on tests to General Officers abusing their people (incidentally I worked for one of those officers and the investigation got the tip of the iceberg). But then I read about Army Officers lying as a course of action and I see my service isn't alone with these issues. Or stories about Navy officers being prosecuted for getting kick backs for scheduling ports of call in order to make a foreign business man rich. We all face disciplinary lapses and I don't see us turning a blind eye to the issue - we go public with it and weather the public criticism. Outside the military you'll be hard-pressed to find another institution that has this much accountability. As for discipline within the ranks, my service needs appropriately educate and empower the officer corps on when it is appropriate and how to discipline someone not upholding standards. We have the most highly educated service statistically speaking, but sometimes the most questioning even when the Q&A period is long over. Any officer should have the ability to take a subordinate consistently failing to meet standards to their supervisor and inform them that they are taking appropriate disciplinary action. More often than not, Commanders want the ultimate say and this goes counter to solving the problem at the lowest level. In the long run, I think we'll resolve these issues and steadily retire/weed out those that are causing them. We're lucky that we've got one of the best CSAF's we've seen since General Jumper retired. He loves America, loves the Air Force, he's been inundated with serious problems and lapses of discipline on his watch, and yet he fights on and doesn't quit. Aim High and thanks for the professional opportunity to address your question MAJ Holland.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2015 5:53 PM

2015-03-28T17:53:02-04:00

Maj. Hoiland,
First off, it is refreshing to see that others see the issue across many aspects of the Air Force. I will gladly share my experiece with my time in the Blue so far. The Air Force is a well oiled machine and a flying beast. The biggest problem starts at Basic Training. I had the opportunity to attend training at Lackland, the home of Basic Training, and was extremely embaressed. TI's are stripped of their power, before trainees get to their squadron they recieve a briefing telling them TI's cant yell at you, cuss at you, brim you, etc.... and if they step over the line fill out a critique. The critique is a good system for when wrong doing actually occurs, but is abused. Other tha training aspects, I have corrected many Airmen just to turn around and have my First Sgt. Tell me i was causing hardship by being too strict. Also, I made a Senior Airman buy a new uniform because he super glued his stripes on, just to have the First Sgt. Jump down my throat telling me i caused financia hardship. The next day thr same Airman went and bought a nee personal handgun, but couldnt afford a uniform. Needless to say the biggest shock I recieved is when I had a Senior NCO tell me "if you ain't cheatin you ain't trying."

Response by CAPT V L Cassani III made Mar 28 at 2015 8:48 PM

2015-03-28T20:48:25-04:00

On a cross country hop from Oceana NAS (Virginia Beach, VA) to Fightertown USA (Miramar NAS, San Diego, CA) in the late 90s I filed a flight plan to RON @ Wightman AFB (Missouri). I was an 0-6 (CAPT United States Navy) and my RIO was a LCDR, USN. We were passed off from St. Louis Center to Wightman @ 1530 Local. My RIO let the Tower know that we were a Navy Bird (F-14) planning to RON and launch for Miramar in the early morning. Shot an uneventful approach and taxied to the Transient Line. Shut down after chocks and tie downs. Climbed out of the aircraft without any ground personnel assisting. Climbed into an AF Ramp Vehicle. The driver took us to a WW II wooden barracks. I asked him if this was the Senior Officer's RON QTRS. He responded that I was just a Captain (O-3) and thus not entitled to the AF premium RON QTRS. My RIO advised the USAF Airman to look at my nametag that clearly displayed CAPT, USN. To his credit, the Airman quickly drove us to a BOQ that was designated for visiting 0-6 and above personnel.

Response by TSgt Thomas Monaghan made Mar 28 at 2015 9:44 PM

2015-03-28T21:44:04-04:00

The current leadership of the Air Force is going away from the independent service we became when we left the Army. Now it seems as through the USAF is reverting back to the image of the Army's little brother/sister. Our Pt uniforms look like the army just different colors our fitness standards are similar to the Army and I could go on and on. I loved being in the USAF I joined when I retired in 2013 the main reason was leadership turning us back into the Army Air Corps again.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 5:33 AM

2015-03-29T05:33:57-04:00

Having served, and retired, as an Air Force SNCO - and having also served in the Corps and now as an Army officer - I feel especially qualified to respond. The caveat is, like all other responses, this will be only my opinion and not worth the paper its written on, so to speak.

MAJ Hoiland, this is not the first time I've seen or discussed this very topic, and the reality simply comes down to a difference in mindset. The easy answer is YES this is a cultural mindset that Air Force leadership fights to overcome. The more difficult reality is that, down at the working level - where the rubber meets the road - Air Force Officers and Enlisted work much more closely together than the majority of the ground forces. I can't tell you how many AF officers, primarily LTC and below, have introduced themselves as (insert First Name) and then proceeded to call me by mine. Coming from the Marine Corps, this was, and is, a cultural speed bump for me. I tried to play along; they call me David, I call them LTC (insert Last Name). Where the average Army or Marine officer will give directions/guidance to their NCOs and, for the most part, go away there are far too many situations where the AF officer and NCO and Airmen, will be working hand in hand during the execution of the mission. It's more than leaders and those being led. It's really a question of the functional capability of the team.

For example, my wife is an AF flight medic, a TSgt. During medevac missions she works arm in arm with flight nurse officers and medical service corps officers. Although the nurses are, by their commissions and position on the medical crew, leaders, they are not - as we in the ground forces understand it - in a position of leadership over the enlisted medical crew. Said another way, they work with medics who they do not rate. The nurse officer, or the MSC officer, is the senior crew present - second to the actual flight crew of the aircraft - but maintaining the continuity and functionality of their team is more important than enforcing policies and regulations. Standards are maintained - but they are AF standards.

With all of this said, let me greatly stress that, although to the Ground forces the Air Force comes across as "military lite", the Air Force - both Active, Reserve and Guard - are some of the most professional people you would ever want at your back, on your side or overhead. They get the job done first - then worry about the Salute.

At the end of the day it helps to remember that the Air Force mission is different from ours and the mindset needed to accomplish that mission take a little getting used to...

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 10:09 AM

2015-03-29T10:09:11-04:00

I have noticed a trend of complacency/lack of honor all across DoD, ranging from blatant uniform violations to desertion of post, Etc. Many service members are joining for the benefits and not for the honor of serving, regardless of branch. That is the problem I'm seeing becoming an epidemic.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2015 5:33 PM

2015-03-31T17:33:21-04:00

Not quite sure I understand the question. Great picture. I am a retired Army Reserve Officer; when I see a uniform of any branch, officer or enlisted, i feel a special brotherhood with that person. (especially these days when a smaller %age of the population has served. Some people may regard the Air Force and Coast Guard and maybe to a lesser extent the Navy as "less military" ie more casual . Not from what I have seen. I am a proud member of both the Civil Air Patrol and the Coast Guard Auxiliary. I see nothing but professionalism in those services. Perhaps a few from the Marine Corps and the Army may look down at those branches as being less "dangerous" The services have more joint operations than ever. USAF has been increasingly involved with more combat situations both on the ground and in the Air. CG people not only support other services but they are spread very thin and have real world missions every day in hazardous seas and weather. Also the support branches of the Army are not much different than support branches of other services. Every job in every branch is important. I salute anyone where has honorably served in any branch!

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Mar 31 at 2015 9:41 PM

2015-03-31T21:41:40-04:00

It's just never been the same since you guys left the Army back in the 40's ;-)

Response by SrA Kelly Richard made Apr 2 at 2015 9:55 PM

2015-04-02T21:55:44-04:00

Air Force here, I must say I've seen both sides. What some call "the real Air Force" and this seen of apathy you mentioned. There are lots of variables that cause this. As an officer, I'm sure you're aware that it starts with the leaders. If the leaders don't care or don't enforce a standard, why would anyone below the do so with the exception of those that are intrinsically motivated? But we all know that no matter what branch.

Something I've really noticed that may best explain this though, is that there is a difference in culture between ops and support in the Air Force, just like thete is a difference between infantry and logistics in the USMC. Those that work in ops have a very different outlook on things like standards and discipline as they realize on a daily basis just how important every detail can be. Sometimes that training and working those types of missions and having that way of thinking can bleed over into every other facet of life. Everything is urgent, every standard serves a purpose, and thinking on your toes is critical.

On the support side, they don't always get to see the direct impact of their job. It's out of sight out of mind. Unfortunately this means their level of motivation isn't always as high as ops who see the bad guy go boom after doing their job, or rushing to save someone's life and get them in a stable condition in a combat environment. Those situations, their heart is pounding, and they are on an adrenaline high, sweating to beat the clock and do it right. If not, the bad guys live and good guys die and no one wants that. Support don't get that heart pounding experience to keep them functioning at a high level tempo, while ops can't stop that momentum. Sometimes they forget, don't know, or even realize what it means to be in the military. They don't even always know much about situations that their fellow military members face. All they know is when others go in and complain (50% of the time it's valid) and when they complain, they talk about how stressful their job is, and the support guys are just adding to their stress unnecessarily, and how hard can it be, they have it so easy. They give each other the same divide between "POG" and "grunt."

Someone mentioned the stereotype of the Air Force is from lack of experience with us, and I think that's true. More often than not, in a joint environment, the Air Force that are commonly "seen" are your support folks. Logistics in Manas that hand you your gear as you're getting ready to step while they drink their three beers a night on their "deployment." I'm not saying their job is any less important. We need everyone otherwise, we have budget cuts to make, they would habe been gone by now. We need the big picture, I'm just saying this is why the perception is what it is. But those that get to work with, say... PJs, MX, or EOD, they might have better response. Intel is 50/50, and fighter pilots and grunts personality wise are one in the same.

We also don't deploy as a unit. So those that deployed operate slightly differently than those that didn't get the opportunity because of their job, they missed the boat on the surge, or they were just DDs and not the kind you invite to a party.

The two different types are like someone who is OCD living with someone who cleans up just enough that the conditions are liveable. The OCD person can't stand their room mate and their lackadaisical ways, but the other person doesn't mind that their room mate is OCD, in fact, they enjoy it so they do just enough to keep them around. Ops and support have similar relationship.

I hope you get the chance to see these types of Air Force personnel. They usually make some of the best leaders. Not to say support guys don't, I've seen some good ones. But ops just bring a nice flavor to the table, and are naturally respected by everyone.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 11:08 PM

2015-04-02T23:08:31-04:00

Sir, honestly I think it's not just the Air Force struggeling with mindsets like this, how many times have we had topics like "toxic leadership", "cracking down on whatever it was that week", and others in the Army times.
I believe all branches are going thru some rough times at them moment after so many years of war and lowering the standards to keep the ranks filled. Now that the media coverage about Iraq/ Afghanistan is going down so attention shifts back to other things and what's better than a good old scandal in the military, after that it's easier to pass bills to cut pay and or benefits. But that is just my opinion.
So I don't necessarily see it as a shift in the cultural mind set of the Air Force, they have just had some rough times like the other branches too.

Response by SrA Zachary Mantyla made Apr 4 at 2015 2:41 AM

2015-04-04T02:41:14-04:00

I feel like the down slope of Air Force Culture comes from the camaraderie I only did about 5 years before I needed to go my own route. I had a Full ACL Reconstruct 3 months before I separated from Active Duty. During the month that I was one convalescent leave for recovery I was unable to drive, go grab food or anything. I was not reached out to by a single person in my shop asking if I required any assistance. I went through it on my own and struggled everyday; when I returned to work I was in physical therapy and one morning I was exiting the PT pad with the waivers to go do my exercises. My SMSgt stops me and says what are you on a waiver for; and it hit pretty hard. Just felt like no one cared anymore, most of the people that choose to get out are tired of being put through the paces and feeling under appreciated for their efforts.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 4:05 AM

2015-04-13T04:05:58-04:00

I am prior service, currently serving in the Air Force. From what i have seen the Air Force lacks both culture and tradition. The service tries to distance itself from its history as the Army Air Corps because the don't want to be associated with the Army. We change our mottos, Creeds, symbol and uniforms on a whim. If it was not for Air Force Academy graduates we would have changed the Air Force song.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 6:46 PM

2015-04-17T18:46:16-04:00

The Air Force is a critical part of our nation's Defense and their role will only grow more important in time. That is a fact and when most people (myself included) complain about the AF we do so because in some ways we are jealous that their branch (and the Navy by the way) takes such exceptional good care of their Airmen and their bases. I envied the short deployments, the same combat pay we get in the war zone for places without active fighting, the extra pays down range, the reported seeking deployments (volunteering) instead of the opposite and how it was reported to be a career accelerator unlike the Army where I was told "deployments will not be considered with regards to promotion", the allowing soldiers to 'homestead' in an area for extended years without grief... need I go on.

Now that being said, I wanted to be a soldier and deploy to Combat and that really only happens now on a regular and recurring basis for Army Soldiers, Department of the Navy, Marines and Special operations forces in each branch. But the fact that the overwhelming number of AF Airmen are support does not make their contribution less important. Everyone can't be on the front line doing the same thing. That would be silly. In order to sustain a soldier on the front line it takes a hundred plus support soldiers to allow them to do their job. There is nothing dishonorable in working a support position. What is the quote general Pershing said "infantry wins battles, logistics wins wars." No one can fight without bullets, boots and beans. Thank God that the Navy and AF have so many support soldiers keeping the supply chains open.

I do wish that there was some additional pay for being directly in harms way and that I was entitled to shorter AF tours or Naval tours. There should also be Different Medals that reflect the additional hazard and length of hazardous duty but thats an just my 2 cents.

The AF is a relatively new branch that grew out of the Army to achieve its own unique critical warfighting functions. Its amazing to realise how young the Air Force is. They separated from the Army and were founded on 18 September 1947. We would not be the Military behemoth we are today without their contributions.

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 2:53 PM

2015-04-22T14:53:57-04:00

I love the Air Force, can't recount how many times JTAC certified TAC-P's saved our arses in the valleys of Afghanistan.

The culture in the Air Force to that of the army is relatively the same. In different AFSC's/MOS's you will have different, higher or lower; standards, discipline, and training. Culture boils down more specifically to your job. Can't judge the Army's culture on all of our different MOS's because they are vastly different, as is the Air Force.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 22 at 2015 3:04 PM

2015-04-22T15:04:04-04:00

So what is the AF culture?

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 4:37 PM

2015-04-22T16:37:14-04:00

My experience has almost been the opposite. With the exception of officer enlisted formalities and boundaries perhaps being a little more traditional I've noticed that the Army tends to be more comfortable at not meeting standards and expectations for a variety of things from fitness (mental and physical) to attention to detail on paperwork. For the Air Force, while things may be more relaxed in some aspects (less strict boundaries between officer and enlisted perhaps, a little more collegial) the AF attempts to implement standards that are too high and AF personnell work themselves very hard to meet sometimes unteneble goals. Just my thoughts as a new officer at a very large Joint Base.

Response by SSG John Erny made Apr 22 at 2015 5:24 PM

2015-04-22T17:24:33-04:00

I have seen Airmen during the late 80's on Pope AFB that looked like put wet uniforms and wore them dry, they looked worse and a bunch of basic trainiee's after a smoke session. The flight crews never looked like that mind you, nor the combat control teams. I think these guys were airfield maintenance or something of that sort.

I have also heard that the missile folks have been left out in the cold by the AF

Response by MSgt Ted C Hall made May 17 at 2015 2:26 PM

2015-05-17T14:26:42-04:00

Other than Officers being willing (at least from 72-92) to ask experienced enlisted how to do things right instead of pretending to know it all. Not much different from other services... except for that sending our officer's out to do the fighting thing.

I guess that does make it pretty different at that.

Response by MSgt Brian Welch made May 21 at 2015 6:52 PM

2015-05-21T18:52:04-04:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member , Sir honestly, reading your original post I didn't take offense, and it's a fair question. To answer it, the AF has leadership challenges like any branch, but maybe of a different kind. During my time, I dealt with issues that stemmed from recruitment that offered enlistment bonuses in thousands of dollars. Imagine an 18 year old getting 15K thrown at them to enlist, where do you think their primarily interest and motivation is? Other factors like the evolving shift to a focus on enlisted getting degrees to be successful in the SNCO ranks pushed a new focus into the lower ranks. I could go on and on. But I'll tell you we had a high deployment tempo, we started augmenting the Army after 911 so that Army recruitment could focus on Infantry rather than engineering. My last deployment to Iraq was with the 555 Engineering Brigade.

Response by CCMSgt Jeffrey Moser made May 22 at 2015 9:03 AM

2015-05-22T09:03:23-04:00

What's wrong with Air Force culture? Nothing is the answer. Not a single airman should respond to the question. The question itself is absurd. Airpower has been the deciding factor in every conflict. When airpower was used effectively according to Air Force planners and strategies, the result has always been success. It's always been other services envy of Air Force airpower. As far as a way of life, no other service comes close. The Air Force takes care of its people better than any other service. I don't apologize for our tremendous airpower or our great way of life.

Response by Maj David Mannix made May 23 at 2015 8:26 AM

2015-05-23T08:26:32-04:00

The USAF culture is still evolving. I was active duty Air Force 84-05. During the Cold War, AF was largely oriented on fixed-based ops - the nuclear deterrent and fighting Soviets in Europe. This fostered a corporate mentality, esp. among us non-aircrew. After Cold War and especially when GWOT kicked off AF personnel started deploying more to austere environments, and senior AF leadership did more to foster military culture; for example requiring regular PT, vs barely tolerating fitness.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made Jun 11 at 2015 2:24 PM

2015-06-11T14:24:33-04:00

Misconception about the Air Force and it's culture? No!!

I'm a bit taken back by the comments made by SECDEF Rumsfeld about the Air Force being out of the fight in 2007. I seem to remember doing my time in the sandbox at the time along with a few of my other brothers and sisters deployed in other regions in support of OEF/OIF.

The culture of the USAF does come off as being more corporate than military, but that does not negate the fact we can serve up our own special blend of ass-kickery (and not just from the skies either).

As a former cop, we did a lot of joint missions with our Army brethren. Gen. Tommy Frank's even praised our hard work and support on convoy missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. If anything, being a cop in the Air Force is almost comparable to that of Army Infantry. My technical school was nearly another form of boot camp.

I can understand the complaints and overall bitching of Soldiers who feel the Air Force is slacking, but in the end, we're only following orders and are not in the position to dictate how we serve or where we go in theater operations. Plus, everyone wearing the uniform made a conscious decision about which branch they wanted to serve.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Jun 12 at 2015 2:15 AM

2015-06-12T02:15:26-04:00

I think we as airmen should remain above the fray.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2015 6:02 PM

2015-07-25T18:02:49-04:00

Major Paul E. Hoiland, I don't know what the big deal is between the Army and the Air Force. Maybe because they have a bigger budget? Bettter uniforms except for the Marine Corps. But I do know this, as a young Sergeant I had to get home to Hawaii ASAP because of a family issue and who do you think came through for me? Yep the Airmen and women of the United States Air Force. I got on a C-130 at Norton AFB. I never been on one before. And yes it took a lot longer than I expected but I got home. Same goes for the Army Warrants in Desert Shield/Desert Storm. I needed a ride to Riyadh and who got me there. Yep the Warrant Officers from the U.S. Army. So, I have nothing bad to say about both of our sister services. I just know they are there when I needed some help. Semper Fi, JK

Response by TSgt David Crear made Aug 20 at 2015 6:02 PM

2015-08-20T18:02:51-04:00

What's wrong with it ? Nothing. The problem is how the AF is perceived. We get up like you, we eat chow like you, we go off to our jobs like you. THAT'S WHERE THE DIFFERENCE BEGINS". You get into a ground vehicle, and someone drives you to the Theater of Operations. You get out go to your assigned location wait for orders, accomplish duties , and wait to go home (if you're lucky). Now on the other hand , I go to my job by way of an Aircraft sitting on the APRON (ramp), go thru my check list to make sure the plane is operational, and when the pilot and other members of the crew arrive we load up whatever cargo, troops , or combination there of, taxi down the runway and take off. Once over the drop-zone, the cargo is "Air-Dropped", the troops bail out the aft end or either of the rear doors located "Port and Starboard" (for the Navy guys....) and we go home , if we're lucky.
Baring a malfunction in the Aerial delivery extraction , or Aerial troop deployment, or someone doesn't shoot us down, or blinds the pilot with a ground directed laser, or someone flies a drone to close and causes an incident, we make it back. We land , taxi up , park it and go to our respective homes. If I have 100 or more troops to drop, $3-10 million in equipment to drop , and a Multi-Million dollar Aircraft to get back to its home , you've only witnessed 5-9 aircrew at work. Where's the rest of the Air Force ? We see more of the our sister services than they do of us. You may be going to a combat zone in the Middle East and be there the next day and the next and so on....But just REMEMBER....the Air Force is on a "Global Mission" everyday, and you may not see me again for 20 years.

Response by TSgt Melissa Post made Aug 25 at 2015 10:41 AM

2015-08-25T10:41:40-04:00

In my opinion, I think that a lot of what is wrong has a lot to do with the younger generation's culture coming in. Back in the 1940s and 1950s the culture of the American youth was respectful, patriotic, and hardworking. Today's generation has lost a great deal of that. While we still have some respect and patriotism I don't believe it is on the same level as our parents and grandparents. As for the hard working part, well it seems that so many kids today have this mentality that they are owed things in life. For what reason? Living? I don't know. My parents made it a point in our house that we say yes sir, no sir; yes ma'am, no ma'am; that we worked for what we wanted. If we wanted money for something you better go wash the car, mow the lawn, do some extra house chores and earn that 5 dollars. I cringe when I see or hear another SrA tell a brand new troop from tech school "don't call me sir or ma'am". NO no no let them hold onto that respect they have gained for as long as they can.

Another sign of the times changing is this sudden push for being mindful of others feelings. Now, should we be polite and not purposefully rude...of course. But having to tiptoe around the feeling of everyone seems to really make us more sensitive. I don't think that General MacArthur or General Patton ever worried hurting the feelings of their troops, especially if what they were saying was for their own good or safety.

I know you were originally looking for higher ranks to reply, but even as a 26 yr old SrA I can definitely see that there is something wrong with the AF of today versus the AF of yesterday.

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Aug 25 at 2015 4:50 PM

2015-08-25T16:50:27-04:00

I do not believe there is anything wrong with the Air Force. I believe the Air Force to be a strong support for the Army and Marines. The AF is intelligence...intelligence gathering....computers/electronics/super spies etc....they are not ON THE GROUND FIGHTING SOLDIERS....they are in a class of their own. The Air Force takes to the skies and fights way up high from the heavens...There is nothing wrong with the Air Force!

Response by Maj William Gambrell made Aug 29 at 2015 12:20 AM

2015-08-29T00:20:00-04:00

Without reading any of the opinions, I am going to give my opinion from an officer level. We are the most bureaucratic of all the Services...meaning we need everyone's opinion before we can make a decision, thus holding things up because someone gets upset and thus nothing happening. My time at the Pentagon frustrated me most. When you can't get a three star to make a decision on Policy or Instruction without staffing it through the entire Pentagon makes no since. Their job is to make a damn decision and solve problems. The are many long stories to my frustrations, but I will leave it at that...

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2015 2:34 PM

2015-09-30T14:34:16-04:00

I think our biggest issue is the mindset that we start our Airman out with as they enter. In OTS and BMT the first things we are taught about are sexual harrassment/assault and how our instructors should behave and the punitive actions you can take. Day 1 in the military shouldn't be that. This has given us a bunch of young Airman with a sense of entitlement that will get you in trouble of things don't go their way.

2nd, we put way too much emphasis on our annual/quarterly awards programs and not enough on job performance. This is supposed to change with the new rating system, but only time will tell.

3rd, we aren't trained as leaders from the start, but trained in our jobs...leadership just happens over time. I went through Army Airborne as an E-3 and I kinda did what I wanted, but the Army guys in the same pay grade damn near locked up every time an NCO or an E-4 with a Ranger tab walked by.

I don't think we could run the AF the same way the Corps and Army do business, but there is no doubt plenty of room for improvement.

Response by SSgt Judy L made Nov 1 at 2015 11:08 AM

2015-11-01T11:08:34-05:00

Rumsfeld is a Moron that should have never held that position.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Nov 6 at 2015 12:12 PM

2015-11-06T12:12:13-05:00

There is nothing wrong with the AF Culture. We are good at what we do…as a matter of fact we are the best at what we do…projecting firepower on the ground, in the air, and in space and cyberspace. So whatever culture that is, it is working for us. Our culture has been in debate as long as we have been our separate service. It goes back to the days of Doolittle and Lemay who took the brunt of Air Force scrutiny which made us where we are today. Certainly we came from the Army Air Corps but even then, wearing Army uniforms we were asked about our “Air” culture. Each service has their own culture and therefore that is what makes them the best at what they do. We will never understand each other’s culture until we have walked a mile in the shoes of the ones we are questioning. What we can do is respect what each one of us brings to the table…and know how to manipulate it for the mission. We are absolutely the best military in the world because of our differences and I wouldn’t have it any other way. I guarantee that when you talk to an Airman downrange or in garrison, you will see that they understand their mission and are willing to get it done. I have deep respect for all branches of the service because on one of my last deployments, it was an Army medic that stabilized and triaged me for an Air Force Doctor to diagnose…it was an joint Convoy (Army/Navy/Marines/AF) that protected and carried me to the hospital, and it was Army and AF medics and docs and nurses that got me back up on my feet…ready to fight again. We all sustain the combat capability of out nations defense and remember whatever your culture, may it always be about the Airmen/Soldier/Sailor/Marine because they will get it done!
For all of you I say this…
Marines – hoooorraahh
Army – Hooaah
Navy – Fair Winds and Following Seas

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Dec 21 at 2015 7:58 AM

2015-12-21T07:58:20-05:00

There are too many to choose just one but I will only pick one or two for now. As the nation's youngest military branch, it seems top me you have a bunch of people afraid of their own shadows. In my brief USAF career (12 years) I saw what seemed like wholesale changes. Just ahead of my enlistment Things changed from A3C, A2C, A1C, SSgt to Amn, A1C, Sgt...was it really necessary? Just a few years later the Sgt (E-4) was re-branded Sr.Amn and the Sgt E-4 slowly faded away.

Then there is the uniform matter. I can't count the changes I saw in my time on active duty but it's bloody ridiculous. For a utility uniform all branches should be using the same uniforms unless specifics of the duty require a special uniform i.e. Missile techs (white coverallS) v. Aircraft crew chief (cotton fatigues). The cotton fatigues served us well and the authorized lighter weight perma-press were also good wearing. Why does a flight line maintainer need tiger stripes? In Vietnam you could make an argument for them but not in Iraq/Afghanistan or other OCONUS or CONUS locales. I agree there should be some theater specific utility wear but for any duty in a non-hostile environment there should be one uniform for all branches..

Response by SSgt Donnavon Smith made Dec 22 at 2015 12:09 PM

2015-12-22T12:09:04-05:00

IT was killed by General McJoke

Response by TSgt David Woodford made Jan 10 at 2016 9:13 PM

2016-01-10T21:13:06-05:00

This has been an interesting discussion to read. I was active duty Air Force from 78 to 86, so I've been out of the service for almost 30 years. I was raised as an Air Force brat as well. My Dad is a retired SMSGT.
I do have to admit that my experience in the Air Force was a bit different than most (especially those that I have read here). I served as a radiologic technologist in the hospital with my last couple of assignments as NCOIC. The hospital squadron always had it's own culture from every other unit on the base, not to mention the other services. I was always assigned to SAC bases so we knew we had to stay sharp and always be inspection ready. I ironed my uniform whites every morning and I kept my shoes shined, even the white ones. (I may have pushed the hair cut regs a bit back then.) However, we were probably a little less "military" than the other units. We focused on doing our jobs and doing them well. We were more interested in keeping that flight crew ready to fly, or getting that jet mechanic or SP patched up when they got hurt, or even taking care of their family members.
We addressed our patients by rank and we addressed most of the officers by rank as well, except for the doctors. Regardless of their rank, they were always addressed as "Doctor". I would say that for the most part the junior enlisted staff called each other by first names and called the Master Sergeants and above by their rank, at least at work. With that being said, regardless of rank, everyone respected the other's knowledge and expertise in their field.
I recall interactions that I had with Army guys back then and they were always amazed that we had better housing and chow halls than they did.
I have to thank the Air Force for my training. I was fully qualified for a civilian management position in my career field the day I got out.

Response by MSgt Charles Heyniger made Jan 11 at 2016 11:04 AM

2016-01-11T11:04:13-05:00

So, after reading a few of the answers posted here I decided to put my 2 cents in. What's wrong with the AF? That's a little complicated but I'll give my biased answer after participating in it for 23 years. I was taught and so were many other young airman that Bob and Vic were my friends not my supervisors. Both were SSgt's I was a single stripe airman. That wasn't unique and many a young airman is taught that when they arrive at their first assignment. They don't come out of basic and technical school that way. Young Lt's are taught the same thing including allowing the new airman to address them by their first name and failing to address SNCO's by their title. As they progress in rank, they teach this to their people and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. As far as enforcing standards goes, if you cant get an airman to address you by your rank how can you expect him to follow standards? For that matter why should they enforce these mundane things called standards? Some senior leaders teach their people that too. Overall, this is a lack of self discipline on their part. How can you expect people to follow/enforce standards if their senior leadership won't do it. Then when the trouble starts 6 months later your kicking a kid out for failing to comply with standards that he was never really taught in the first place. The Air Force has always had a 9-5 attitude. Which is funny when I think about the fact that many of us worked shifts for the majority of our career. Even when there was an exercise, we went home at night. I don't expect the AF to be identical to the other services but, they have to change their mindset. It needs to get tougher on the simple standards and the rest will follow.

Response by SrA Jeffrey Reeves made Oct 18 at 2016 7:32 AM

2016-10-18T07:32:22-04:00

Major, The first and glaring problem is your question. That is a loaded question that assumes a problem. Better to ask "What is the Air Force Culture?" You can then go on to assess both strengths and weaknesses and - perhaps - make positive suggestions that will enhance strengths and bolster weaknesses. A1C Jeffrey E. Reeves - '65 - '69

Response by TSgt Timothy Ryburn made Oct 18 at 2016 11:32 AM

2016-10-18T11:32:36-04:00

Often the role of the Air Force confuses many people from other services. Air Force Career Fields are Incredibly Technical. A prime example of this of this would be the first term military member. In other branches of service: Army and Marines, these first term E-2's through E-4's are considered fully trained soldiers. In the Air Force, however, due to the Technical nature of positions, our first term and second term Airmen are going through a great deal of training and are not considered "trained", what we refer to a 7-level qualification, until their seventh or eighth year. This may shock and surprise you, but just imagine if ALL of your first term soldiers were considered "not fully trained" to complete the mission. There have been attempts in the past to bring Airman into alignment with Individual Combat Roles such as the Army and Marines have, however these attempt have further pushed back this "training and readiness learning curve" for Airman to properly learn the Air Force's Mission Combat Roles. I think that one of the things that confuses Army and Marine members the most is they are used to "fighting as a unit." This is Tactical Combat. The Air Force focuses more upon Strategic Combat. While the focus of an Army unit may be to fight a specific offensive at a specific geographical location, the Air Force focus may be on repairing 18 aircraft at four different locations, refueling six replacement aircraft coming from the States, monitoring the missions of two reconnaissance aircraft, and assisting in three Air Strikes, while bringing in supplies and troops to a forward location. I think the difference being Combat Tactics are critical in a battle, and are good at keeping a very focused determination, whereas the above mentioned Strategic maneuvering is not "an anomaly", but rather just a typical shift.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 3:44 PM

2016-10-18T15:44:04-04:00

A retired MSgt friend and mentor of mine once told me this.....The other Branches have over 200 yrs of tradition unimpeded by progress. the Air Force has almost 60 yrs of progress unimpeded by tradition....if you ask a solider sailor or marine their services birthday or anything like that and most can spit it out without hesitation.....good luck getting an Airman to do that....Most soldiers know who Patton was....most sailors probably know Bull Halsey.....Most Airmen don't know Richard Bong or General Lemay.....most airmen know their jobs and nothing more and many don't seem to have a desire to know.....As an AF SSgt (and military history major) I try to impart that on my young airmen

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 9:25 PM

2016-10-18T21:25:09-04:00

I didn't care much for Rumsfeld then or now. I know I'm not suppose call names and I'll try to do my best not to. Rumsfeld had a lot of crap coming out of his mouth because he's full of it. I was a c130 flight engineer. I worked with all branches of the military dropping and delivering cargo or personnel. We strived to deliver on time, any place. Our gunships could loiter in place for hours supporting any branch of service. Our hurricane hunters provides valuable information the weather folks. We take pride in our jobs and the work we do. The air force saved a lot of lives during desert storm. For once our hands weren't tied. We pounded Iraq for months with our technology. We had help from other nations so we didn't go it alone. Without that kind air war and support, more lives would have been lost.
TSgt Clemons
USAF ret

Response by MSgt Walter Thomason made Oct 19 at 2016 4:22 AM

2016-10-19T04:22:35-04:00

What I believe most of the Air Force's sister services do not understand is that the Air Force is by mission, primarily serves a support role. Our front lines are usually miles behind the combat area. We don't have ground forces to take and hold ground. We have aircraft that can soften the target but very few that have a "boots on the ground" function. I've been fortunate to have served in several different areas from command and control to combat communications where we, for some of you folks in our sister services, did have a primary mobile nature to it. However, even in combat comm, the nature of our mission was more of support than actual combat. I thought the training was so lousy that only the people with common sense would survive. Hopefully, by now that has been corrected. Another aspect that is missed is that the enlisted role is to basically to send the officers off to do the fighting. When I went through basic training I think we had a "field day". Currently, I know that has changed, but, it still isn't the primary focus. The focus is to get the planes off the ground and back, rescue downed pilots and several other roles that support the war fighters, not fight the war at the front.

So where does that leave the officers? For the most part, the only officers physically involved in the fight are the pilots. That leaves a great deal of the Air Force officer corp outside of actual combat. I saw so many officers trying to, "fill the right squares" in order to be recognized and promoted that I thought it was a waste of a career. I clearly remember a young first Lt. during a visit from a 2-star, 'nosing' it to the point that even when the General was trying to eat his lunch (it was a Space Surveillance facility with one dining hall for both enlisted and officer. Our crew had the honor of being seated at the same table as the general), he was constantly dogging the General about his career. The General finally lost patience and told him, "Look Lt.! Just take the assignments that you will enjoy and your career will take care of itself!" Until this day, I'm still surprised I didn't bust a fart trying not to change my face and laugh. The point is, how do you exceed when your leadership is based on managing non-combat roles in a profession that is combative in nature? I've seen in one assignment that the initial mission was expanded in order to, "Operationalize" the system. The system was designed to work autonomously with minimal support, however, millions were spent to make it more hands-on. Unfortunately, because of several reasons that became abundantly clear, the facility was shut down after less than 5 years of operation. It just wasn't cost effective to be run as such. But the basic function was filled, "operationalizing" the system turned it into a "weapon system" in some people's eyes and a bullet on their OPR. So perhaps that is why you see, "issues such as stolen valor and the vigorous enforcement of standards, regulations, and policies are (not only) less important..."

Rumsfeld didn't understand the nature of the Air Force. The Air Force wasn't set up to lead convoys, primary perimeter defense, or ground initiatives so yes, overall, it looks bad. Most Air Force was traditionally far from lines of combat and supplies are usually flown in. Even after Viet Nam, I don't think too many lessons were taken from it. Probably because there was Army support at that time and that was an unconventional situation, however, as the military was downsized, no one took it seriously enough to change the culture of self-defense. Even when we deployed in combat comm, weapons was thought to be unnecessary. Fire arms training was only when your card expired. Times have changed a lot. Today we have the smallest military since what is it now? Before WWI? The Air Force has changed but they like every other service is asking to do more with less. Planes got to fly and it takes the same ground support as before so, perhaps the perception of our sister services will continue to erode.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Oct 19 at 2016 11:28 AM

2016-10-19T11:28:21-04:00

While I served I noticed that the Air Force is really like two brothers/sisters there is the blue side which has most of the aircraft and people and only thinks about their troops looking good in uniform and sorties. The other is the green side they work with other special forces world wide along with our own. This side is more about its men/women which in turn gets the job done better because we have more pride.
With that being said I think a lot of our culture is being washed away by new rules and regs. Troops don't carry unit/rank coins and think it's stupid when someone drops a coin on the bar. Volunteering doesn't get you anything anymore on your performance reports decreasing visibility of military members in the community. Even what is now called hazing but what was done out of love for our fellow troops like the going away party were we duck tapped said troop to a chair, hosed them down and covered them in food items is gone. We all new it was coming and would bring our worst uniform that day but it only happened to those we liked and not to the ones we just couldn't wait to leave.

Response by SSG James Funaro made Jun 4 at 2019 4:01 PM

2019-06-04T16:01:44-04:00

The Air Force is an officers branch. The officers get to do nearly all of the "cool" jobs. They are the tip of the spear, while the vast majority of the enlisted support them. So it is hard to develop a warriors ethos or a true esprit decor among the enlisted. Compare that to the Army, where within a first enlistment, a young soldier can be a tank commander or infantry squad leader and truly be at the tip of the spear. Much pressure to lead is placed on young soldiers in the Army, whereas the pressure on an airman is to be technically proficient at their jobs which are usually pretty complex. I served in the AF as a crew chief and I enjoyed it, but it did lack the warrior spirit, which I found in spades when I served in the Army NG in the infantry. For me, there was nothing like the camaraderie of soldiers after completing a hard field task together. I rarely if ever felt that in my time in the AF.