What's up with the 'mass exodus' of talent going from Blue (Air Force) to Green (Army) to become a Warrant Officer?

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:21:57 -0400

In 2018, I jumped from the Air National Guard to the Army to (hopefully) become a Warrant Officer. Since then, I have helped usher several Air Force NCOs through the process. What is the Air Force not doing that would make anyone (including me) in their right mind want to go back to BTC and WOCS?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2020 11:29 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:29:54 -0400

Didn't the Air Force get rid of Warrants?

Response by CPT Nicholas D. made Apr 21 at 2020 2:03 PM

CPT Nicholas D. — Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:03:11 -0400

Opportunity. The Army Warrant Officer community is massive, so there are a lot of opportunities both technical and in Aviation.

Additionally, some of the requirements are more attainable for a larger segment of the population. Example: a 4 year degree is not required to apply to be a Warrant Officer (although, most of my Warrant Officer friends do have at least a Bachelor’s and many Master’s and more). Army Warrant Officers are “technical experts” with a paycheck to follow. Depending on years of service, a topped out CW5 retirement is only a few bucks ($128 per month) shy of a topped out LTC.

The Army’s largest WO pool is Aviation. There is an attraction for folks that want to devote themselves to becoming those “technical experts” in the cockpit with out the same political and staff progression as the O side. It still absolutely exists within the WO corps, but it is different, and the difference in the expected quantity of flight time between an O career and a WO career is enough for people to pick a path. Most WOs will trade the salute in front of the PX to the 2LT for the much greater share of flight time, specialty tracks, etc.

The WO cohort also has a different vibe than the traditional officer corps. Much more familiarity and fraternity than other denominations.

Long story short: Serving as an Army Warrant Officer carries a proud tradition an a plethora of opportunity. It’s a unique service experience, and brings a lot of reward. I was very proud to be a Warrant, and as a CPT now, I think my best leadership traits that I harnessed were derived from my experience in the cohort.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2020 2:08 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:08:16 -0400

I never understood why a branch like Air Force with all the technical aspects did away with Warrant Officers??

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 21 at 2020 2:14 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:14:26 -0400

The Air Force doesn't have Warrant Officers, so NCOs who want to go that route have to move to the Department of the Army or Navy. Also, the Air Force requires manned-aircraft pilots and some other aircrew members to be officers, thus requiring them to have a bachelors degree. As far as I know, the Army does not require Army Aviation Warrant Officers to have a degree. Finally, the Air Force requires officers to compete for leadership positions almost continuously. Just being good at a technical specialty isn't enough to get promoted beyond O-4 in general. If you're a pilot and just want to fly, then the Air Force officer track is going to disappoint you somewhere along the way. Army Aviation WOs can just fly and look forward to making CWO-4 or maybe CWO-5.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2020 10:10 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:10:32 -0400

My guess is they want to fly. And they want to keep flying, not just fly the first few years then get currency hours after that.
Anyone in the Air Force has noticed that pilots fly until O3, then they move to management, then maybe one more pilot job, then nothing but management with just the quarterly hours.
Army AV WOs fly their whole career if they play their cards right.
I have even met CW2 and CW3 pilots in 160th that left AFSOC MH-53s as CPTs to just keep flying in the Army.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2020 5:01 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2020 05:01:23 -0400

Great Question

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2020 4:00 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Apr 2020 04:00:57 -0400

I also jumped ship in 2018. I did it because I wanted to expand my career down a path that more aligns with my goals, i.e. being an officer without the extra politics of being an O-grade, and I do not regret my decision.

I've gotta say, the Air Force does so many things right, and yet still does so many things wrong. The same can be said about the Army. Those things, could not be more polarized.

For enlisted, the AF concentrates on AFSC competency up to E6 (only after having a major shift in top brass leadership) but still only offers an up or out style of promotion. This seems to make folks with great technical expertise take their training and double their income on the outside or go warrant, if they even know what a warrant is. The excuse that AF senior enlisted do the jobs that a warrant would do, is a complete and utter fallacy. A WO option for techs put into company grade maintenance leadership positions and pilot programs makes too much sense.

The Army on the other hand, in my limited experience, seems to over rely on warrants for technical competency, yet put us in alternative positions that should be filled by O-grades and in turn, expect us to accomplish both without fail. There is no structured OJT for the enlisted folks like the AF, and promotion up to E6 is subjective on how you perform at the board, how you look in uniform and how you do on your PT test.

With all that said, the structure and training that AF personnel receive makes them ripe for warrant officer duty in the Army. The AF could take advantage of those experts yearning for a chance at becoming a technical leader by offering an alternative career path in the form of a WO, and the Army could shift their focus on promotion criteria to MOS competency and emplace a structured training plan that would hold soldiers accountable for their OJT. With a pool of more eligible Army candidates, there wouldn't be such a vacuum for warrants that sister service members could take advantage of. At the end of the day, it's just about opportunity.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2020 11:54 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2020 11:54:01 -0400

Back in 2011, when I was re-branching from Ordnance to Signal, there was a former USAF Senior NCO in my class that had negotiated the Blue to Green accessions process. I asked him why he switched over. His answer was quite similar to everything posted here, but he also made this observation: as he progressed from E-6 to E-7 and then to E-8, his technical duties vanished and were replaced by supervisory and management responsibilities almost exclusively. He told me that he left the USAF so that he could continue to advance in his career but stay technically focused. The USAF eliminated Warrant Officers back in the '60s due to the belief/notion/perception/understanding that all of their NCOs are technically focused, but in actual practice that is not true, especially when you get to the Top 3 NCO ranks. Their loss is our gain!

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2020 9:14 AM

Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 May 2020 09:14:24 -0400

Hello Cpt Nicholas D., I understand that you have experience with Army Aviation. Have you had any experience with the Army's fixed winged operations? I'm about the finish my bachelors and almost nearing completion of my private pilots license.... Wanting to go Army Fixed. I have a family history of Army service and would like to continue it. Also, is going through OCS or WO the best way to go? I very much appreciate any time you could help.

Thanks, Nick Nasse. [login to see]

Response by CW4 William Kessinger made May 6 at 2020 4:52 PM

CW4 William Kessinger — Wed, 06 May 2020 16:52:20 -0400

I did so in 1968 and have never regretted it. (moved from AF to Army without a break in service) The Army offered me the opportunity to fly in both fixed wing and rotary wing, some times within the same duty assignment.
If and when the Air Force learns that all pilots are not interested in becoming a General officer and just wanted to fly their entire career. You will note that the AF is having retention issues with their rated pilots and wonder what is going on. Throwing money at the issue as in the 1980's and 1990's did not fix the issue. (increase in flight pay). Give the officer the option of moving up or staying in some flight position with aviation related duties. Such as Aviation Safety, Instructor Pilot, Aviation Maintenance and allow him/her to still stay in the cockpit.

Response by CW4 William Kessinger made May 17 at 2020 5:25 PM

CW4 William Kessinger — Sun, 17 May 2020 17:25:45 -0400

One quick word " FLYING". Not as a crew member but as a PIC and options to fly almost anything the Army has.

Response by Michael Enderle made Oct 21 at 2020 2:42 AM

Michael Enderle — Wed, 21 Oct 2020 02:42:51 -0400

Not a direct answer here but I'm a civi with an associate degree and pilot license. I'm debating enlisted in the Air Force or taking a bit more time and trying for Army Warrant Officer. It's a real shame the Air Force doesn't have a way for someone considering the military without a bachelor's degree to fly. I'd be all over it.

Response by MSgt Keith Morreira made Jul 6 at 2022 7:17 PM

MSgt Keith Morreira — Wed, 06 Jul 2022 19:17:12 -0400

The AF discontinued WO in the 90s. It is a perfect rank structure for many specialized career fields that are technical in nature, high responsibility but don’t require direct subordinates.

The AF made a mistake and should bring it back.