What should an individual do when state and local health department systematically strip Americans of civil liberties?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 22:33:04 -0400

State and local health departments are coercing local and national business organizations to force consumers to take draconian precautions that are likely deemed unreasonable to reasonable consumers in society. Walmart, under duress from lobbying bullies, is constructing an artificial price floor to obstruct consumers from purchasing goods and services in stores. The Walmart price floor is likely to symbiotically morph into the price floor that has already been created from the hysteria generated by COVID in the market economy. The construction of these price floors through the coercive policies implemented into business organizations and the free market are likely to prevent potential consumers from purchasing goods and services and sustenance needed to live and thrive in American society. Walmart will lose at least one customer starting July 20, 2020.

The next question that needs asking is why are state and local health departments forcing the medical industry upon the American public? Government force onto American freedom is antithetical to American values. These misleadingly innocuous disruptions and coercive policies are eroding American freedom. Moreover, state and local health departments are using the coercive mechanisms of the government to collect observations on the medical health of the public while stripping way American freedom. Bureaucrats use the observations for hypothesis testing and the creation of legislation that permanently takes away a citizen's right to hold differing opinions and values. State and local health departments are slowly usurping an individual's autonomy of choice.

Response by SrA Ronald Moore made Jul 17 at 2020 10:50 PM

SrA Ronald Moore — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 22:50:11 -0400

Can you provide pictures of these pricing floors?

Response by LTC Eugene Chu made Jul 17 at 2020 10:55 PM

LTC Eugene Chu — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 22:55:50 -0400

For "coercive policies", look at history. US government previously enacted quarantines and other measures during public health crises. YouTube clip mentions court cases where governmental took action for safety during epidemic/pandemic based on federal code

https://youtu.be/IF8MswEQS7w

Can the USA Legally Quarantine the Coronavirus? (LegalEagle’s Real Law Review)

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Response by SGT Gregory Cole made Jul 17 at 2020 11:24 PM

SGT Gregory Cole — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 23:24:43 -0400

Revolt. Government has become tyrannical and the citizens are about to be enslaved. Its all part of the UN's plan to keep the earth healthy and going. Eventually everyone will be rounded up into megacities where they will control what you eat what you do what you own. Like Judge Dredd type stuff. People not in the megacities will be on your own in the wastes and more likely than not hunted down by some random group to ensure the sheep are kept numb in the megacities.

Response by Capt Gregory Prickett made Jul 17 at 2020 11:50 PM

Capt Gregory Prickett — Fri, 17 Jul 2020 23:50:51 -0400

Quarantines are legal and have been from the start of this nation. Actually, the government could take a lot more restrictive measures, if needed.

Response by SPC Steve Bright made Jul 18 at 2020 9:28 AM

SPC Steve Bright — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 09:28:23 -0400

Let's organize these as points -- you aren't clear on when it comes to specifics:
1) "State and local..draconian precautions.." are you talking here about face masks?
2) "Walmart... price floor" - what items?
3) "coercive policies.." what policies?
4) "forcing Medical industry" -- how?
5) "coercive mechanisms of govt" -- what mechanisms? what observations?
6) "freedom" what freedom?
7) "observations for hypothesis testing.." what?
8) "state and local health departments..." how are they usurping individuals choice?

I am guessing that you are talking about wearing mask and you do not believe the SARS-Covid-2 is a serious health issue. Let's address the issue of Covid first. What we do know is the R-naught (transmission rate) range is 2-4. This is to say 1 person infects 2 to 4 others that go on to infect 2 to 4 more each (2nd derivative of 4 to 16 additional people). The most widely expected R-0 is around 2.2-2.3. This is higher than flu which is below 2 and in order to get the virus under control we need to have it below 1.

The swine flu, which is a good comparison, infected 60m Americans and resulted in about 12,000 deaths. This CFR or case fatality rate was around 0.02 while the regular flu CFR is below 0.01 or below 1%. Deaths often occur with in the elderly population but no severe secondary effects on survivors. The CFR for Covid-19 is, when factoring in the expected number of asymptotic individuals, closer to .5 to 1%. Originally I believe this number was believed to be around 1.2%.

If we use .6% CFR and this were to go unchecked, we can easily assume 60m people in the US would become sick. This would result in an estimated 3.6m dead vs the swine flu's deaths of 12k. However, and here is the problem that many fail to grasp... that with a hospitalization rate of around 5%, we would exceed the available beds in the US. And given that we only have about 20 ventilators per 100,000 people in the US we would also quickly exceed that number as well. As a result, care would and survivability of Covid-19 would be significantly impacted and we'd be in a situation like Italy was; people unable to get help and dying at home. The death rate could easily double here and we'd see deaths near 7 to 10 million. We have not even discussed the secondary deaths -- have a heart attack? No room in the hospitals so you also die...Have a car accident, bleed out while waiting for a doctor to care for you.

We have not even discussed the secondary effects of those that don't die and instead of life-long respiratory problems. ARDS -- fluid building up in the lungs, holes in the lungs and other problems are serious life long effects that are not widely discussed nor the implications on society. Of the cases, 40% develop ARDS and about half of those are severe and will reduce a person's ability to perform work and require further care for the rest of their life.

And we haven't even talked about the dangers of a virus mutating. Obviously the more people that have it, the greater the chance it will mutate and while some mutations could be less dangerous, others could be more severe.

Increase the number of people with such illnesses and you increase the need to raise taxes to help support these people over the course of their lives. Our health care system turns into a third world triage system that is unable to keep up with other needs (cancer, accidents, etc).

Here is what we do know about face masks. That wearing one (a proper one and wearing it properly) cuts transmission by about 2/3rds and around 95-99% if both individuals wear a mask. Agreed that there are different levels of protection and wearing a bandana is a joke and won't do anything but face masks that are N95 or KN95 are very effective IF properly warn.

To prevent unneeded and unnecessary deaths, wearing a face mask is an easy task. Properly warn, and a correct mask, can reduce the transmission to below 1. If EVERYONE were to do so for a period of 2-3 months we'd be close to a more normal life. If we had proper contract tracing -- requiring people to load an app to track individuals movements (no PII) except phone number/name -- to identify potential vectors when a person tests hot then we could get the virus out of the US.

For questions: 2-8 there are no specifics and I can only guess as to what you are discussing.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 18 at 2020 4:19 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 16:19:57 -0400

What the heck is a price war? What is an example of forcing medical industry upon the American public?

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Jul 18 at 2020 9:47 PM

PO2 Skip Kirkwood — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 21:47:21 -0400

With all due respect, Captain - wear the mask and keep your distance. This virus is too new and too virulent to mess with, and it kills people not because of what they do, but because of what others do. Yes, I know the politicians have FUBARed the message and the science, but the truth is, wearing masks and keeping distance help. Your civil rights will be fine.

Response by PO2 Stephen Cline made Aug 29 at 2020 5:50 AM

PO2 Stephen Cline — Sat, 29 Aug 2020 05:50:05 -0400

Reasonable quarantines yes. What is happening now no. There is no actual science supporting this. You quarantine the sick and vulnerable, not an entire nation. As for you question, Constantly contact your Governor, Mayor,county judge. Peacefully protest. Beyond that I don't know. My governor will not answer his phones respond to emails or contact forms. She's shut out the state legislature and even ignored a state supreme court ruling.

Response by PO2 Stephen Cline made Aug 29 at 2020 6:01 AM

PO2 Stephen Cline — Sat, 29 Aug 2020 06:01:51 -0400

Reasonable quarantines. However, Nothing about this one is reasonable. You quarantine the sick and vulnerable, not an entire nation. There is no scientific evidence behind any of it. Now as for your question constantly contact your Governor, Mayor, County Judge, protest, file a lawsuit if you can. Beyond that I do not know. My governor shut out the legislature, his phones, emails and contact forms go unanswered. He has ignored a state supreme court ruling. IOW,s he has gone rouge.

Response by TSgt Philip Sales made Sep 3 at 2020 12:51 PM

TSgt Philip Sales — Thu, 03 Sep 2020 12:51:39 -0400

Quarantine
A quarantine is a restriction on the movement of people and goods which is intended to prevent the spread of disease or pests. It is often used in connection to disease and illness, preventing the movement of those who may have been exposed to a communicable disease, but do not have a confirmed medical diagnosis. It is distinct from medical isolation, in which those confirmed to be infected with a communicable disease are isolated from the healthy population. Quarantine considerations are often one aspect of border control.
No where in this definition,does it say anything about FULL POPULATION Lock down. In addition, how many times does the CDC and other Government entities. get to change the study "FACTS"? And are they being changed to fulfill an Agenda?

Response by CPT Jerry Lucas made Sep 18 at 2020 5:25 AM

CPT Jerry Lucas — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 05:25:10 -0400

You should obey the directives until a court of competent jurisdiction overturns such policies. If you think they are that draconian, file a lawsuit, and let judges and lawyers fight it out. Be ready to accept the fact that you may just be wrong on your thoughts. That clause in the Preamble of the Constitution about promoting the General Welfare is the basis for many health departments doing what they are doing. There is a Supreme Court case from 1905 that is still valid., Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2004.055152

AJPH.2004.055152

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Nov 30 at 2021 11:52 AM

1LT William Clardy — Tue, 30 Nov 2021 11:52:57 -0500

"I have only just begun to coerce!" - Anonymous Public Health Official