What should happen if a leader points a weapon at a soldier? What punishments are available?

2019-02-13T07:49:59-05:00

Greetings everyone. A fellow NCO (if it fits in here) pointed his rifle to a soldier. The soldier was on a detail doing some work for a FTX we held during drill weekend and, without any reason, this NCO pointed his weapon right to the chest of a soldier. This is a second incident. The first one, we had live ammunition and we were during an state mob and he did the same. This NCO lack of every ounce of leadership and control over his soldiers. The NCOIC nor the unit permanent party punished this actions. They just gave an counseling but I'm pretty sure this actions has worse consequences. This second event was with blanks. I need guidance in what can I do and what is supposed to happen. What punishments are available?

Response by COL Dana Hampton made Feb 13 at 2019 7:57 AM

2019-02-13T07:57:37-05:00

Immediately, using your general military authority vested in your rank, to take corrective action on the spot. Everyone is a safety officer. Stop the unsafe act. Report it to the range NCOIC and OIC for further corrective action.

Leaders should never allow a known unsafe act to continue. Period.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2019 8:23 AM

2019-02-13T08:23:21-05:00

At the minimum, This is clearly a Safety Violation and a "Failure to follow instructions, SOP, Policy, or Regulation." This could have resulted in someone's death. The ultimate disposition will be up to the Chain of Command as to the seriousness of the violation and if an investigation is warranted. If found guilty through the investigation, then the Command will have multiple options as to the punishment. If I was his Commander, I would direct some form of Corrective Training, such as, make the SM conduct a range safety class and maybe an Article 15 (if there was malice intent)...AR 15s have been given for much less. On the other hand, this could rise to "Conduct Unbecoming an NCO" and that could result in a Chapter 10 (Bad Conduct Discharge). Discipline within the Army Reserve and National Guard, for the most part, utilize the UCMJ...Also If he truly is a Bad Leader (I have seen more than a few), then the Command Sergeant Major may consider reassigning him to another position of lesser responsibility. Hope this helps...MAJ O

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2019 8:27 AM

2019-02-13T08:27:14-05:00

Seriously. I cannot picture this how nobody around lost there shit on this NCO for pointing a rifle at someone else let alone put it to another soldiers chest. Right then and there I would of lost my shit regardless of rank... If the COC hasn't at least Art 15 this soldier there is absolutely something wrong in this situation. If there are multiple witness that you can get statements from I would, I would bring it up my COC, if they do not do absolutely anything I would have that soldier file a report ASAP.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2019 8:31 AM

2019-02-13T08:31:34-05:00

When we were on active duty, we punished similar behavior with Art 15/NJP, but at least the Soldier apologized and didn't do it again. Keep in mind, that is also (arguably) a criminal act and an option could be to call the police. You might want to at least let your CoC know you are going to do that, and probably expect some blowback. But pointing weapons at people is a no-no.

Response by CSM Paul Herr made Feb 13 at 2019 9:06 AM

2019-02-13T09:06:50-05:00

If the leadership has been told and only counseling was a result use your open door policy with your command. You could also file an IG complaint. The action you take is totally dependent on you ability to absorb blow back. I would not stop until this issue has been addressed with more severe consequences. This action is totally unacceptable!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2019 10:36 AM

2019-02-13T10:36:31-05:00

First, that "NCO" should have been kicked EXTREMELY hard in the taint, then taken to the carpet and had every stripe taken off their chest. Get witnesses gathered up, get formal statements gathered up and take this to the Chain. If the immediate command level doesn't wish to do anything, then take it higher. Second, why did NO ONE monkey stomp that "NCO" on the spot for such a blatant unsafe and criminal act?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2019 10:47 AM

2019-02-13T10:47:20-05:00

I'm sure this isn't the "right" answer, but it's a goddam boot to the chest or butt stroke to the face.
Pointing a weapon, especially a loaded one, isn't a joke. Plenty of people in the Army have been killed by a negligent discharge when someone pointed a weapon at them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2019 11:57 AM

2019-02-13T11:57:17-05:00

This NCO was charged with dereliction of duty for pointing a weapon at another soldier during M9 training, though she was ultimately acquitted because it was a he said/she said scenario. I would say that would be an appropriate charge for the NCO in your situation.
https://www.stripes.com/news/jury-acquits-senior-nco-accused-of-pointing-weapon-at-soldier-and-calling-another-fat-1.563675

Jury acquits senior NCO accused of pointing weapon at soldier and calling another fat

Sgt. 1st Class Jessica Barboza was found not guilty of dereliction of duty, maltreatment and disrespecting an NCO by a panel of nine male officers and senior NCOs.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Feb 13 at 2019 12:26 PM

2019-02-13T12:26:24-05:00

If it was reported and the Command only gave a counseling, then the action has been taken. Not the level of attention or course of action I would have advised my CO to take or I'd agree with, but Commanders have that option.
Personally; I'd have disarmed SGT dipshit if I were present when he intentionally pointed a loaded weapon with live rounds at someone and it would have been a "big deal". Again there is a whole menu of options available to the Commander under UCMJ from NJP to full blown Courts Martial proceedings for an offense like this.
We point weapons at each other in all kinds of training scenarios with blanks and adapters during OPFOR or force on force training so without knowing if SGT dipshit was pointing his weapon at someone in a training scenario or menacing someone , I don't know how ticked off to be over this.
I will say that a blank can do damage and they should not be fired at someone without an adapter and if SGT dipshit was pointing his weapon at someone with no adapter his chestnuts would have been roasted.
If you don't agree with the punishment or corrective action taken by the command, get on the open door and ask the Commander , or 1SG about it , and professionally present your reasons for disagreement. You may see something they are missing and your question if properly posed could wake them up to a real issue. If you still feel the command isn't taking safety or force protection seriously speak to the BN command team or the IG.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2019 3:56 PM

2019-02-13T15:56:25-05:00

One source I discovered states:
Members of the Army and Air National Guard are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice unless they have been called to federal active duty service. It means that members of the National Guard cannot be punished for missing weekend drills or failing to show up for the two weeks of annual training, which may mean it applies to other offenses. However, it wouldn't preclude administrative separations
JAG would be the one to give a legitimate answer.
Regardless, even were it a violation of the state's military justice laws, that doesn't mean the commander is required to take military justice action.
My course of action, which has no lawful weight, and most would advise against follows:
Someone points a weapon at me, as I have no x-ray vision, I would assumed it was loaded weapon, and I, like any reasonable person would fear imminent grievous bodily harm or death. The NCO would wake up in pain, leaking from the lip, nose, and facial lacerations, with their hands and feet secured.
If, with blank adapter on, there would be fewer leaks.
Local law enforcement would have been called, who would likely not have the legal knowledge as to whether they had jurisdiction, but the level of visibility would bring the level of command awareness to prevent the unit from covering it up.
WARNING THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE
My course of action would be:
Obtain witness statements. File a criminal complaint with local law enforcement for communicating a threat and/or assault. In general these offenses have meet certain elements that vary state to state, such as: threat must be communicated (pointing a firearm, blank adapter doesn't mean it isn't a threat); ability to inflict injury was displayed (weaponed pointed at someone is such a display); reasonable person would interpret that as a threat (I would, LEO would); a reasonable person would be placed in fear (actors have been killed with blanks, firearm pointed at someone would reasonably cause fear, fundamentals of firearms safety and military norms and training on muzzle awareness clearly oppose any claim that this could be interpreted as a joke).
Personally, I would:
1. Write a letter to my Member of Congress (to secure protections from retaliation that almost always occurs);
2. File a complaint with the IG online (more whistleblower protection);
3. Notify every member of the COC, up to, and including the first GO in the COC of these incidents, and inform them of my protected communications with the IG and MOC to remove their ability of deny their awareness of your protected communications;
4. I would encourage the Soldier to file a complaint with local law enforcement, or file one as a witness.
I would ensure everything I did from that day forward was above reproach, not speak about it with anyone other than anyone conducting an investigation, and then, only speak to my personal observations of those incidents, refer them to the MOC or IG for questions regarding those communications, and check my state laws regarding recording conversations without notifying the other party. I would document everything with MFRs and emails following any discussions to establish what was discussed.
The Soldier may also consider seeking a protective order.
NOTICE: this isn't legal advice, and you should seek counsel from JAG.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Feb 13 at 2019 4:59 PM

2019-02-13T16:59:17-05:00

Number one, A Soldier can be hurt by blanks (eye) and too often live ammo can get mixed in with blanks, by accident or otherwise. This is grieves and should be dealt with by the command, not the NCOIC. You as an NCO should have no issue reporting such unprofessional conduct. This person is not an NCO. Thank you for your service.

Response by PO2 Seth Carron made Feb 13 at 2019 5:37 PM

2019-02-13T17:37:06-05:00

Me? I'd be willing to go to NJP for it, but he'd be leaving his post on a stretcher. This isn't something I'd do an administrative punishment for.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Feb 13 at 2019 11:10 PM

2019-02-13T23:10:35-05:00

At the very least it should have been two UCMJ charges; one each for dereliction of duty, with additional charges of misuse of government property, conduct unbecoming and a few others.

Counseling statement? What idiot Senior NCO and commanding officer signed off on that? You counsel for relatively minor infractions. That, make that both times should have been a bust in rank. That person should have not have been an NCO, let alone in charge of people. This is not a game, live rounds, blanks or empty.

You need to document both instances and then report this to your IG as clearly his command authority has failed and miserably. Don't bother with your commands open door policy, this warrants going outside of them. Just be aware that it can have blowback.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2019 12:26 AM

2019-02-14T00:26:51-05:00

Sgt that's when you just stroll up whistling and drop kick him into oblivion. As much as I don't like harming other soldiers this time i'd make an exception.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2019 1:10 AM

2019-02-14T01:10:45-05:00

This is ludicrous. First, You let your “fellow” NCO know this won’t be tolerated by you or anyone else in the unit. Second, use your leadership’s open door policy to ensure your commander, 1SG and higher if necessary is aware. Third, tell your commander if it happens again that you do not know how you are going to react... You know it won’t be pretty and then the unit will have a bigger issue on its hands. Fourth, prepare yourself mentally for the next time this NCO does something stupid.

Response by CWO4 Gene A. made Feb 14 at 2019 1:23 PM

2019-02-14T13:23:33-05:00

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this complaint. But, as an NCO you obviously have been in long enough to know the answers to your question. If not, at least you should know who to go to. Rallypoint is a military social site that might afford you some answers but, it is not where I would recommend you go to obtain same. That being, said it appears you do need some guidance being an NCO.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2019 4:43 AM

2019-02-15T04:43:14-05:00

Sad part here is that since we are National Guard and we are not in federal active service, UCMJ is not applicable but state laws are. So that being said, I was not present at the moment when it happened, there were other NCO and he did not do anything. Got notified by the soldier day after drill. Itook sworn statements from both incidents including witnesses and took them to the JAG. I will not stop until this "soldier" pays for his actions. Civil actions are going to be determined by the JAG office.

Response by Sgt Jude Eschete made Feb 15 at 2019 3:42 PM

2019-02-15T15:42:02-05:00

He would be lucky to still have his teeth. That is a very real threat, ESPECIALLY if there is live ammo involved.
I would like to point you to the following articles of the UCMJ:
Article 98 - Noncompliance with procedural rules
Article 117 - Provoking speeches or gestures
Article 134 - General article
Article 134-13 - Disorderly conduct, drunkenness
Article 134-47 - Sentinel or lookout: offenses against or by
Article 134-52 - Threat or hoax: bomb
Article 134-53 - Threat, communicating

Response by CSM John Mead made Feb 16 at 2019 4:54 PM

2019-02-16T16:54:36-05:00

Rather than ask what punishments are available, dwell on what the proper manner in reporting it is. If your chain of command does not execute a reasonable course of action, be respectful and ask to go higher. Identifying poor leadership skills and safety habits should be the concern.

Response by SSG Joseph VanDyck made May 12 at 2019 2:39 PM

2019-05-12T14:39:15-04:00

Drill Weekend. I do believe that civilian law enforcement should be advised of this. The chain of command should also be advised. The "NCO" is not a leader and I firmly believe that a separation from the service for the good of the service. Just saying.