What should happen to officers who choose to engage suspects in crowded areas?

SPC Angela Burnham — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:14:17 -0500

My Aunt was recently shot during the hostage shootout in Florida, the one where the UPS driver was killed. All that happened two cars over from her, good news though is she's going to be okay. My question is this: should police really have pushed in like that to take out those two robbers? I feel like less people would have been hurt if they had established a perimeter, gotten the civilians out of the area, and negotiated the release of the hostage. How could this have been handled better?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2019 3:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:18:50 -0500

Response by SrA John Monette made Dec 10 at 2019 3:42 PM

SrA John Monette — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:42:27 -0500

you are absolutely correct. they should have established a perimeter once the vehicle was disabled. at that point, bring in hostage negotiators. police are too quick to use their firearms when there are innocent people (your aunt, the UPS driver, etc) in the line of fire.

Response by SrA John Monette made Dec 10 at 2019 3:42 PM

SrA John Monette — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:42:42 -0500

best wishes for a speedy recovery for your aunt

Response by SrA John Monette made Dec 10 at 2019 3:44 PM

SrA John Monette — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:44:05 -0500

those officers should be held responsible for their reckless actions. i understand they were doing their jobs. i've been in law enforcement so i know the stress. but someone needs to be held criminally responsible

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Dec 10 at 2019 3:49 PM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:49:10 -0500

They should have tried to isolate the UPS van in an area away from people.

Response by Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin made Dec 10 at 2019 3:50 PM

Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:50:25 -0500

I would recommend we wait for the final report on the incident before issuing judgement vs speculating the Police did the wrong thing. If you have ever been on the parkway in that specific area at rush hour you know it is an already chaotic zone. You can't just simply clear it out.

Response by SPC Angela Burnham made Dec 10 at 2019 4:00 PM

SPC Angela Burnham — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:00:36 -0500

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Dec 10 at 2019 5:43 PM

SPC Stewart Smith — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:43:14 -0500

Nobody can see the future. Nobody has a crystal ball. There are a lot of "what ifs" in these situations.
What if: the police had not engaged the robbers, the robbers fled, shot the hostage, tried to rob someone else, and shot them?
What if: the police had not engaged the robbers, they fled, and never robbed anyone ever again and no one ever heard anything negative about them ever again?
There are too many 'what ifs' and I feel we should look at the positives. Your aunt is going to be ok.
Why punish someone for hypothetical scenarios?
EDIT: I have not watched this story or heard anything about it. I am speaking from personal feelings and no knowledge of the situation.
EDIT EDIT: I just 'skimmed the story' and I feel like a dick for my response.
- I feel the officers should have followed from a distance , isolated or followed the truck to a less occupied area, and then proceeded. These officers should take some remedial training on how to lesson the impact of a 'fire power' scenario.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2019 5:45 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:45:06 -0500

As a COP and SWAT officer for years. Sometimes the situation dictates immediate action at the time of the moment.
Yes, police officers have in mind, of other persons in the endangered area, and some might not, but being there has meaning, of the action that is to be taken.
So what is it to be, a strict action that is to be followed, or, a human thought out action at the moment?
In essence, the officer has to make a decision to accommodate the event in a second of chance.
ATF (after the fact), is just that, and is to one's own opinion.

Engaging 6 targets in 1.6 seconds is all I did, imagine how a human has to think it out in that amount of time, engaging in pulling the trigger. A true event in my life, and I'm still here to tell the story. Think about it!

Response by Sgt Brian Pesci made Dec 12 at 2019 7:06 AM

Sgt Brian Pesci — Thu, 12 Dec 2019 07:06:23 -0500

It is hard to judge the actions after the fact! There are so many variables to consider in such a high pressure situation.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Dec 12 at 2019 11:21 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 12 Dec 2019 23:21:00 -0500

Sniper. Seriously too many variables to figure, sorry about your aunt, good that she is recovering. Look at the point- if they got away, how many do you figure they might kill the next time, and what is it was some of your? Negotiations are actually a chance to immobilize the felon for SWAT and cordons to arrive- no police would seriously consider letting the go.

Response by SFC David Dean made Dec 17 at 2019 2:42 AM

SFC David Dean — Tue, 17 Dec 2019 02:42:37 -0500

First of all law enforcement officers do not usually have the luxury of choosing where to engage a suspect or suspects in a given situation that involves the possibility of violence. It is a bit unrealistic to have such expectations for these encounters. I worked for 43 years in both civilian law enforcement and as a military policeman and during that time the aforementioned encounters were never determined by my actions or choices. So to temper your expectations you have to factor in that officers always try to eliminate as much risk to others as they can. The reality of doing the job does afford itself the luxury of always having that option. More often folks such as yourself that question these actions have the latitude to play the proverbial armchair quarterback and review your preferences from a detached position. Unfortunately for law enforcement that option does not exist in our situational world. We are confronting a situation that demands us to make a decision as the violent offender makes choices. If you have never had someone confont you with a gun, knife or weapon it is not possible for someone to judge whether the officer had the time or option deploy other actions or to do something that uninvolved persons judge after the fact. For instance there are a multitude of questions too many people have tried to second quess the actions at Columbine High School with respect to law enforcement actions there. I know firsthand from those officers what actions they used to save those students and they are not reflective of what is reported by the media and others who were not at or in the school. I was there the day following and had to work there on scene. The axiom of walk a mile in my shoes is most applicable in this circumstance for those who want to condemn us.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Feb 1 at 2020 12:44 PM

LCpl Cody Collins — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 12:44:18 -0500

It all depends, I was interviewing with the St.Louis County police department back in 83. And it came down to this, if the perps demonstrated violence in the process of the crime. When I get to the scene, I'm to identify myself first then pop his dumb ass. You have to stop the perp from causing more harm to others. If they are using a vehicle as a weapon you stopped the vehicle by ramming it or doing whatever you can to get that vehicle to stop. If they are using the gun and randomly shooting people as a way to cause a distraction so they can escape then you open fire on their sorry asses until they stop. Saving lives come 1st you can argue rights in the court Room but what then you cannot argue is a fact if you come on the scene and the individual is allowed to keep shooting in murdering and wounding people and you do nothing but worry about their rights, You will not be a cop very long and will probably cause innumerable lawsuits go failing to do your job. Like that officer in that high school in Florida here after the psi while the shooting went through the school jazz shooting people at random instead of charging in and facing the individual he stood outside and hid. Is unfortunate what happened to your eye what was even worse was the UPS driver was killed I remember that incident. But the police had to do something to stop those 2 individuals. I'm glad that you're aunt is recovering, God bless her.