What teaches more about leadership, schools (such as Ranger) or time as an NCO (in a leadership position)?

2017-03-19T19:35:53-04:00

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2017 7:39 PM

2017-03-19T19:39:13-04:00

I suspect much of that hinges on when a soldier experience each in his career.

Response by SGM Billy Herrington made Mar 19 at 2017 7:42 PM

2017-03-19T19:42:00-04:00

I would lean towards time in position. Schools are a tool to use. Sometimes they fit, sometimes they don't. It takes the Soldier to know how to apply what has been learned and in what manner to do so.

I've always said, there's a book answer, the way to do things, and the way to get things done. Not many schools prepare you for the latter. That comes with time and experience.

Response by PFC Jim Wheeler made Mar 19 at 2017 7:46 PM

2017-03-19T19:46:35-04:00

I'd lean towards leadership experience over leadership schools for learning to be a truly effective leader. However, Ranger School teaches more than just leadership and can still teach a great leader quite a lot about themself, which can help them be even more effective.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Mar 19 at 2017 7:49 PM

2017-03-19T19:49:23-04:00

I think there are better leadership teaching moments outside of the traditional schools. I have had good leaders who never went to Ranger school or WLC (or whatever it is called now). On the other hand I have had bad leaders who have been to the normal leadership schools of BNCOC, WLC etc. A good leader is developed from a combination of two things: seeing how good leaders work and seeing how bad leaders work.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Mar 19 at 2017 8:16 PM

2017-03-19T20:16:09-04:00

Good question and I would argue that if you hit SSG(P) as a Infantryman you already had RANGER school via experience. I used to moderate another Military board and one of the other Moderators was an AD Infantry SSG and his Chain of Command was complaining or parts of it were that he did not attend Ranger school. Whats the point if your already a SSG(P)? RANGER school for Infantry 2 LT's was intended to fill gaps in their knowledge in their early career and prevent bad decsions from being made. If you attend RANGER school as a Infantry Major.....the question has to be asked..........Why?

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2017 8:25 PM

2017-03-19T20:25:30-04:00

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member Leadership schools provide good information. Listening and observing the best practices of respected leaders, and then incorporating some of these practices into your leadership style, will be a key component. Lastly, time in grade as a NCO will gain you the needed experience. Learn from your mistakes, and do not make the same mistake twice.

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Mar 19 at 2017 8:29 PM

2017-03-19T20:29:51-04:00

70% is learned by doing the job, 20% from a mentor or learning from others, and 10% is from school. Otherwise, we all can go to school and get rich. School will give you a knowledge base . But, to learn you must apply what you know from all your experiences.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2017 9:48 PM

2017-03-19T21:48:08-04:00

Mentorship. Lear from a good leader and work to be better then they were. Where ever you find that person.

Response by SSG Thomas Gallegos made Mar 19 at 2017 10:07 PM

2017-03-19T22:07:36-04:00

Great responses here. No doubt time in respective NCO position. You are challenged in so many ways as an NCO.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2017 10:17 PM

2017-03-19T22:17:06-04:00

I've been to a handful of leadership schools ranging from PLDC in my NCO days (am I dating myself my admitting it was till called PLDC) to BOLC as a new O this past fall. I don't think either school really taught me much about being a leader. Honestly what helped me develop was simply observing other leaders around me. I tried to learn something from every leader I came across, whether good or bad.

Response by SGT Matthew S. made Mar 19 at 2017 11:46 PM

2017-03-19T23:46:24-04:00

Schools are good for information, ideas, and a base of knowledge. I believe that working experience teaches far more in the long run, though.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Mar 20 at 2017 9:00 AM

2017-03-20T09:00:07-04:00

It really all depends on what kind of learner you are. Some people learn the best from opening a book. Those individuals would benefit more from leadership schools. Others learn the best from actually doing the task. Those individuals would be best suited having time in an actual leadership position.

There really is no right or wrong answer to this question. Everyone learns differently and will benefit differently from the same source materials.

Response by SGT William Howell made Mar 20 at 2017 10:04 AM

2017-03-20T10:04:03-04:00

Trick question. It depends. Did or do you have a senior NCO mentor? Have you done NCO-DPs? Has you unit had you lead PT and formations? If not then WLC/PDLC or whatever it is called this week will be a benefit. If you have had all or most of those things I am not sure you are going to get much out of it. I had 5 months as a CPL and 11 months in combat as a SGT. I had the best 1SG in the Army who took care of young NCOs. I had a SSG that was a friend and an a tough mentor.

What I got out of WLC was the understanding that there are a ton of NCOs and SPC that have no clue about being a leader and it their chain of commands fault as well as their own. They came in unprepared and it was hard on them. Us guys and one super squared away female that were prepared and had some experience all got grouped together so that we would not be a crutch for the people who needed to learn. We were left alone for the most part so that the cadre could work with the other soldiers.

As far as Ranger school for leadership. I would have no clue. I am sure somebody else can address that. Every tabbed guy I have ever met seems to have a level of confidence that is above average when it comes to leading.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2017 10:29 AM

2017-03-20T10:29:52-04:00

Experience is a tough teacher. It give the test first then the lesson.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Mar 20 at 2017 12:33 PM

2017-03-20T12:33:22-04:00

Watching and learning from a leader that people respect and want to follow. Seasoning, time and maturity are the best teachers in my opinion. Classes give you theory but application is something you have to do personally.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2017 1:48 PM

2017-03-20T13:48:20-04:00

I would have to say time as an NCO. There is no greater teacher than time and experience. Schools are fine and dandy, but they teach only the basic principles of leadership.

Response by SGT David T. made Mar 20 at 2017 1:49 PM

2017-03-20T13:49:47-04:00

Schools give us the doctrinal foundation but that typically (based on my limited number of schools) doesn't translate to the real world. Schools teach us how it should be. We cant ever achieve it, but it's something to shoot for and a baseline. Experience fills in the gaps. I think both are equally important in the long run to create a well rounded leader.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2017 2:13 PM

2017-03-20T14:13:39-04:00

Leadership schools are great and definitely have their place and benefit. However, nothing teaches you what leadership is and is not like the trials and tribulations of first-hand experience and observations. Leadership is a learned behavior and while a person can be born with the natural traits of a leader, there is no such thing as a natural born leader. Leadership is as entwined in knowledge as it is in experience.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2017 10:04 PM

2017-03-20T22:04:22-04:00

I think that schools offer you a good "buy-in" but it lasts only as long as people are able to see through you, or understand that you have truly embodied that knowledge or experience. As an Artillery Officer attending Ranger school was something that I had wanted to do since I was a brat at Fort Benning. It gave me common ground with my peers that were Infantrymen, but ultimately they would decide whether I was worth my salt or not. Schools are great to set as goals, and great experiences to be thrown into leadership situations with other branches/MOS's but the only schools that will get you promoted are those required for your next rank...in the meantime it's all about performance.

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Mar 21 at 2017 11:40 AM

2017-03-21T11:40:41-04:00

Depends on the Leadership school, Mentors through your career who will guide you through the path and LEADERSHIP positions, You can be the military forever and never be in a leadership position and not lead a damn thing so don't give time in service thing. If you are willing to handle the responsibility and the tools that a designed to make you a strong leader and a combat warrior you have my blessing. Just because you're RANGER don't mean I'm going to listen to you because bullets can go through you too just like everyone else. That's from KING OF BATTLE side.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2017 4:26 PM

2017-03-21T16:26:58-04:00

Definitely time in the job! Schools are just tools! You can learn something always. But knowing how to use it is what the key is..

Response by 1SG Darren James made Apr 16 at 2018 12:55 PM

2018-04-16T12:55:25-04:00

Time in position (actually doing the job) teaches more than schooling (learning the basic concepts of the job), but gaining an overarching vision and knowledge base makes you a more effective leader. Shoot for time in leadership while seeking Mentorship, but don’t turn down the opportunities for formal education on the matter.

Response by SSG Harry Outcalt made Sep 15 at 2020 12:57 AM

2020-09-15T00:57:23-04:00

Examples teach more about Leadership than anything else one can learn, because it is something everyone has been exposed to since birth.....
Example Lt. Audie L. Murphy was my hero growing up then it became the 5th Special Forces Group in the form the movie " Green Berets" with the Duke and upon joining the U.S. Army at 17 it was my Drill Sergeants in Basic, then my Drill Sergeants in A. I. t. Along with a former Ranger on a squad maneuver course as one of my Instructors. and every Nco at my first duty assignment in Wildflecken ,West Germany with the 2bn 15th Inf. ( Lt. Audie L. Murphy's Inf Regiment), who set the bar high on what hero's looked like in real life every Nco e-6 and above were special operations combat vets, including a former Marine Force Recon Vet reclassed as a cook who taught me to never take anything for granted and to be better then those we trained to fight meant train like your life depends on it ,2nd duty assignment Ft. Campbell, Ky. Home of the 101st Abn Div. Supported by the 5th Special Forces Group. where i became the goto Nco. Examples of exceptionalism are all around you ,all you have to do be willing to look and learn from them to become the Nco you want to be ....