What to do when a Soldier is consistently on quarters?

2021-03-16T11:24:22-04:00

I have a Soldier that has been on quarters a total of 43 days this year alone. It has been over 9 different instances and with very short notice. She states that she has allergies or is sick and is able to keep getting letters from a civilian doctor exempting her from work for several days at a time. She also states she is on medication at times that prevents her from driving a GOV, which is critical for her MOS, but then is out driving her sports car everywhere during her time off. I haven’t dealt with an issue like this in the past and my chain of command is also at a loss of what to do. If she doesn’t want to participate in something she is sick and doesn’t. Is a fit for duty directed by the commander worth doing or can she pass that and continue what she has been doing? Any advice would be appreciated. It has gotten to the point that the rest of the team has to pick up her slack and she can’t be relied on for anything due to the fact she will last minute be unable to be present.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 11:31 AM

2021-03-16T11:31:53-04:00

Sounds a lot like malingering to me. If this Soldier is an NCO your best bet is to counsel repeatedly and address it in their NCOER. The harder question is whether or not you believe this person should be separated from the Army or not. There's a chapter for repeated malingering. If they are a SSG, a negative NCOER will refer them to the QMP board for review.. The fact that she can't be relied upon to accomplish a task is enough to begin your counseling with. If these are legit medical emergencies it may also be time for the commander to look at asking the provider about a med board or a chapter 5-17

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 11:36 AM

2021-03-16T11:36:34-04:00

I'd say start a paper trail to note when she gets these doctors notes from a civilian as a start. Start doing event-oriented counseling for this

Get proof of her going out and "miraculously" feeling better on her days off driving, partying, etc. Whether this is social media posts or actually seeing her out and about and getting pictures. When she all of a sudden feels ill when the duty week starts again, you start having a case to build. If you get proof then you can start specific instances or performance counseling statements and continue the paper trail.

The key is having evidence and a paper trail to prove your case

The SFCs are right ^. If she is an NCO bad NCOERs and if it is legitimate consider the Med board

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 11:37 AM

2021-03-16T11:37:14-04:00

Can't drive a GOV due to meds but has been seen driving her own POV? If possible, contact her civilian provider and ask if the SM has been seen there recently. Obviously, you can't ask what for, but see if you can ask if they were in fact evaluated. If they are able to answer without violating HIPPA, and state that she has not been seen there, then you have her dead to rights for possibly the following:

Insubordinate Conduct toward a Non Commissioned Officer/ Article 91
Dereliction of Duty/ Article 92
False or Unauthorized Pass Offenses, False Pretenses/ Article 134

I would certainly press for the Fit For Duty evaluation.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Mar 16 at 2021 12:23 PM

2021-03-16T12:23:11-04:00

Malingering comes to mind! She is on quarters, as I understood from my time, she is stuck in her quarters, if that is the barracks, then you don't leave the barracks. Counsel her and wait for her to go for a ride again and slam the door on her.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 12:31 PM

2021-03-16T12:31:05-04:00

I'd start the paper trail. And if it continues then start working with Company and Battalion to get the SDAP turned off. USAREC doesn't play around.
Mainly annotate it in counselings, support form, and NCOER. We can't be afraid to be honest in evaluations.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 12:45 PM

2021-03-16T12:45:59-04:00

It sounds like malingering, but she has essentially disqualified herself from further service. Paper changes paper and this one should be easy. The Command knows which route to take, or they need to learn. If she's Recruiting, performance may be a way. She should not be involved with prospects, considering her actions. It's called working the system to get what she wants, and it appears she doesn't want to be a Soldier. USMC Recruiters that tried this would get handled fairly quickly. In the words of one RS CO, the only way out was face down and bloody. The last step before flushing a turd is the paperwork.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 12:48 PM

2021-03-16T12:48:02-04:00

I have never had to fact check this or look at the reg to prove this but I have been in multiple units where if a shoulder received quarters “recommendations” from a civilian doctor that it had to be taken to the Soldiers PCM/clinic to be turned into a quarters slip. All of this had to be done prior to being given to the commander for their signature.

I always understood it as how can a civilian doctor outside the military network put a Soldier on quarters. Seems to me it would have to be a military doc. And then the check and balance is that commander signing the slip. After so many the commander can request for the PCM to look into it. Maybe it is a Soldier trying to get over on the system. Or maybe it is something worse and an underlying problem.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 2:24 PM

2021-03-16T14:24:48-04:00

I have dealt with this a few times. There are two ways you can go about this. You need to speak with your provider and get their take on it. They can get a permeant profile if there is really something going on or they can get medically cleared. If they are still complaining about an injury when they are medically cleared by a provider then you contact your Behavioral Health Provider. I would usually see what they said and both times I did this I sent the Soldier for a BH assessment. Both times they came back with a BH issue that led the provider to behave that the Soldier thought they were hurt when they were not. Both times I initiated a Ch 5-17 and they were gone in two months. You need to do the coordination with the providers so they understand. If you don't they may get played by the Service Member.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Mar 16 at 2021 3:26 PM

2021-03-16T15:26:17-04:00

Is this Soldier Active Duty? If they are, there is no reason for a civilian doctor to be signing off on quarters. She needs to go through PCM, even if PCM refers out. Even if Active Guard or Reserve, they should be going through PCM. Once, maybe even twice, I would let it fly, with the very clear instruction that in the future it would have to come from PCM.

If the PCM (who should be monitoring health records and be able to identify a pattern) thinks everything is legit, it is probably legit. If you STILL have questions, a quick conversation between the Commander and the PCM can clear things up and/or tip off the PCM to possible malingering.

Regardless, IMHO, this is really not your fight, it is the Commander's. Yes, you are the one on the front line, picking up the slack and seeing the problem first-hand, but this is one of those situations that is specifically on the Commander. If you have not already done so, you NEED to sit down with the Commander and discuss the way ahead.

Regarding the doing things on "off" time that she can't do during duty, I would recommend that you sit this Soldier down each and every time they get quarters and counsel them. Document on paper exactly what the Soldier can and cannot do. And then put it in writing that they are NOT to do any of those actions until date X or until re-evaluated by a medical professional. Have it come from the Commander, if possible to add extra weight. So if she cannot drive a GOV, then she cannot drive, period. Make it VERY hard on her to continue her shenanigans. One of three things will happen. 1) She has legit issues and will comply for the sake of her own health. 2) She is malingering, but will comply for the sake of her career. 3) She is trying to play the system and she will continue to say one thing and do another. Then, if nothing else, you have her dead to rights for disobeying lawful orders.

And if she says she can't come in because "quarters," call bull shit. VERY few doctors orders say that a Soldier can't come by to process paperwork. Literally every single time I have gotten quarters - to include the time I got it for infectious disease - I was allowed to stop by the office and drop off the quarters slip and check in with my NCO. And even if she, for some reason, CAN'T go to the office, you can certainly go to her house (or the doctor's office / hospital). After all - if she is so bad off she can't drive a GOV, it would only be PROPER for you to escort her home and make sure she is safe, right (bring a battle buddy / witness!)?

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Mar 16 at 2021 5:19 PM

2021-03-16T17:19:14-04:00

Do it soon or she will be pregnant

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Mar 16 at 2021 10:53 PM

2021-03-16T22:53:02-04:00

Sounds an awful lot like malingering to me. I know policies have changed since I was in uniform but when you were "on quarters" that also meant you were "IN QUARTERS", not gallivanting about after duty hours because you miraculously felt better after Retreat sounded. Not only that, in most cases, medications that prevent you from operating a GOV would also prevent you from operating your POV as well. After all, they are the same type of vehicle (sedan/truck/van).

The three best pieces of advice I have are: 1. Document 2. Document 3. DOCUMENT some more! And get the Commander involved sooner rather than later. JAG may have to provide input but I believe in limited circumstances a unit commander has the authority to obtain medical records for Line of Duty Determinations (not really sure on that so JAG input would be best). From the sounds of it, this Soldier either needs to be considered for permanent profile (in which case eligibility for reenlistment needs to be considered) or she needs to be on the short route out the front gate and out of the Service for false statements, malingering, and dereliction of duty.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 17 at 2021 9:58 AM

2021-03-17T09:58:55-04:00

" keep getting letters from a civilian doctor exempting her from work for several days at a time. "
This is your commands mistake. A civilian Doctor CANNOT profile or put someone on Quarters. Only a MILITARY Doctor can do so.
BLUF: You guys have been letting her get away with some shennanigans she shouldn't have.

Response by SPC Michael Bernard made Mar 23 at 2021 2:18 PM

2021-03-23T14:18:30-04:00

Permanent Party CQ. 24 on, 24 off, for eternity. That shit will get old real fast.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Mar 23 at 2021 2:55 PM

2021-03-23T14:55:40-04:00

Time to send her ass packing, home. Sorry your in the Army, if your not dependable your useless.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2022 6:01 PM

2022-01-13T18:01:12-05:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member, it's been almost a year since you posted this. What, I am curious, eventually happened?

Response by SFC Bill Snyder made Mar 24 at 2022 11:33 AM

2022-03-24T11:33:19-04:00

Pull her pass and off duty privileges . Refer her to a PEB and subsequent discharge if warranted.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2022 12:31 PM

2022-03-24T12:31:42-04:00

Hello,
Civilian doctors orders for quarantine are not valid. The service member must see a military healthcare provider or medic for them to transfer the quarters onto a form 689.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Mar 24 at 2022 3:16 PM

2022-03-24T15:16:25-04:00

Why is she seeing a civilian Dr.? Don't you have medical facilities on your current installation ? Malingering is the way to go.

Response by SSG Brian MacBain made Mar 24 at 2022 7:33 PM

2022-03-24T19:33:06-04:00

SFC Gibson, I truly hope you are not the NCO of this soldier, because I would question your leadership as a Senior NCO. If she is on profile for not able to drive a GOV, that profile extends to her POV. She had lied to you and to the COC and in violation of her profile, aka disobeying a direct order. Next question is why is she going to a civilian doctor? Are you NG or AR? If active, send her to the TMC and get her issues reevaluated. I bet half of the stuff is false, made-up issues to get out of work. As others had stated, you need to counsel this soldier, no matter if NCO or not that she is not meeting to Army/Unit standards and could possibly face adverse actions, such as Art 15, Chaptered out etc. I would go as far to put a flag on her that until she gets herself squared away, no awards, promotions can happen.

Response by LTC Ray Buenteo made Mar 24 at 2022 8:36 PM

2022-03-24T20:36:54-04:00

Fit for duty. I think she is looking for the chain to order her evaluated and then go VA for disability