What was the purpose of the higher Specialist ranks?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:31:26 -0500

During the time my grandfather served in the Army, there were many Specialist ranks all the way up to E-9. My question is, what was the purpose of having an E-9 SPC (SP9) back when these ranks were in service. I could use a good history lesson!

Thank you,
SPC O'Hara

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2016 3:39 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:39:12 -0500

They were used to distinguish between combat arms and specialties that supported them

Response by MCPO Mark Durland made Nov 28 at 2016 3:55 PM

MCPO Mark Durland — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:55:00 -0500

Interesting question, SPC Private RallyPoint Member and response MAJ Private RallyPoint Member . Fresh out of thumbs.

My dad was a SP5 Russian linguist in the '50s. So...to drill down further...does Specialist still hold any particular purpose or would it be prudent to go to CPL across the board (particularly since Specialists promote to SGT rather than SP5)?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2016 4:17 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 16:17:30 -0500

Back then, the two rank systems were used to distinguish who was a leader (an NCO), and who was a technician (specialists). The higher specialist ranks were given to soldiers who had a great deal of administrative responsibility, but did not necessarily lead any troops. For example, someone who was a quartermaster (supply sergeant) who worked at the Pentagon and worked on massive acquisition projects might hold one of the higher specialist grades. He was paid the same as the NCO of the same grade because of the level of responsibility and expertise he had, but he was not in charge of troops and most of his authority was administrative only.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Nov 28 at 2016 4:17 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 16:17:57 -0500

By the time I joined there were only SP4 through SP6 still. The Specialist grades were for technical fields and the Specialists were not expected to serve in leadership positions like the hard stripe NCOs.
The Engineer MOSs I recall having Specialists up to SP6 in 81 were the Machinists and Crane Operators. Machinists transferred to the Ordinance branch and the crane operators were absorbed into the 62N Horizontal Construction Supervisors and became hard stripe NCOs.

Response by SP5 Mark Kuzinski made Nov 28 at 2016 4:37 PM

SP5 Mark Kuzinski — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 16:37:02 -0500

Great question and SFC Anonymous explained it very well!

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Nov 28 at 2016 5:39 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:39:09 -0500

Just for information:

In 1968 when the Army added the rank of Command Sergeant Major, the specialist ranks at E-8 and E-9 were abolished without anyone ever being promoted to those levels. In 1978 the specialist rank at E-7 was discontinued and in 1985, the specialist ranks at E-5 and E-6 were discontinued.

Response by SFC George Smith made Nov 28 at 2016 5:51 PM

SFC George Smith — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:51:39 -0500

most interesting... in the mid 70's I saw one SP-8... he was Senior Ward Master at Brook Army Med Center...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2016 8:27 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 20:27:39 -0500

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/what-s-the-relationship-between-the-army-technical-sergeants-and-specialist-4-9-rank-structures

What's the relationship between the Army Technical Sergeants and Specialist 4-9 Rank structures?...

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Nov 29 at 2016 1:59 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 01:59:15 -0500

One of the ideas was people that had certain skill levels that others didn't have could be compensated for those skills. The skills may have been a a specialty that required certain technical expertise but not supervision of others. That is the simple answer but actually what did give birth to that sort of rating.

Response by CSM William Payne made Nov 29 at 2016 6:55 AM

CSM William Payne — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 06:55:36 -0500

When I joined the Army in 1973, my MOS was 74 Series, then Computer Operations, now that was the opitime of the Technician in the Specialist Ranks. All those MOS were converted to The Signal Branch, 25 Series over the years.

I made it to Specialist 5 as a 74D-G5, Computer Operator, Large Scale IBM. Our shift Supervisors were a mixture of hard stripes and Specialist, SSG, SFC and SP6 or SP7. Our Systems Programmers (74E) and Computer Maintenance Technicians (74G) were all Specialist 6 and 7s. We had a Section MSG, a SGM and above that was a Warrant Officer as the Section Chief.

Anything outside of that in the unit followed the traditional Army rank structure, motor pool, supply and administration. If you came in the Army with civilian computer skills, you could get fast tracked to SP5, which pissed off all the SP4s who had been in for awhile and couldn't get promoted because the cutoff scores for promotions in those MOS where ridiculously high in those days.

I also remember there was a lot of heartburn when Sergeants were in charge of higher ranked Specialist when we did our time in the field. Especially when many of our Specialist held degrees and the GT score cutoff for the MOS was 110. We thought we were too damn smart for our own good to be bossed around by some lowly supply or motor Sergeant!

When I joined the Reserves in 1981 I had to go to a 11B Conversion Course and was then appointed Sergeant from SP5 and then sent to Drill Sergeant School.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2016 7:38 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 07:38:54 -0500

SPC Private RallyPoint Member I was the Chief Fire Direction Computer for a mortar platoon, and was a SP5. I had one subordinate, a SP4 Fire Direction Computer. Mortar squad leaders were all SGTs, perhaps because they had an appropriate number of subordinates, 4 in their case. (Appropriate in that an Infantry Team Leader would also be a SGT and have 4 team members.) By that standard, if you had an entire squad of 10 subordinates, you would be a SSG, and if you had a platoon's worth, you would be an SFC. But if you had less, you could be a SP6 or SP7.

I don't know if this is the ACTUAL reason, but it is what it appeared to be in the early to mid 70's. The only SP7s I saw were senior cooks.

I think then, the Army was trying to increase pay for those who had valued skills, but insufficient subordinates to justify higher rank. I think the Army needs to continue to look into this, and stop the drain of highly qualified talent to the contracting world.

Response by COL David Turk made Nov 29 at 2016 10:22 AM

COL David Turk — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:22:31 -0500

A lot of good answers here already. I'd add that the upper specialists ranks began to disappear when the army converted to the "up or out" (e.g., QMP) program. Just an observation.

Response by LTC Roderic Hewlett made Nov 29 at 2016 10:29 AM

LTC Roderic Hewlett — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:29:58 -0500

Designed to recognize technical attainment, but not NCO responsibilities. Helped with the up-or-out philosophy by retaining technically qualified personnel at senior enlisted levels - but not requiring them to be responsible for troops like hard stripe NCOs. Some switched over to hard stripes and some ended up leading support troops.

Response by SPC John Zahn made Nov 29 at 2016 10:38 AM

SPC John Zahn — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:38:26 -0500

Higher pay grade

Response by SPC John Zahn made Nov 29 at 2016 10:38 AM

SPC John Zahn — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:38:50 -0500

More pay.

Response by MSG Stan Hutchison made Nov 29 at 2016 11:09 AM

MSG Stan Hutchison — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:09:56 -0500

After making Sp/5, I was always a "hard stipper" but I worked with a number of higher specialist, mostly Sp/6 and Sp/7. These were "technical" ranks, pay grades. They had no leadership authority. They were supposed to be technicians only. I knew of one Sp/8, but I don't think I ever saw a Sp/9.
We were in the computer field. Since my secondary MOS was as a Computer Systems Analyst, I could have been switched to specialist if I had been assigned in my secondary, but that never happened.
I still believe it was a good idea, as some of those positions did not require a "leader," just a highly technical soldier. But that was back when we had a large Army. I guess there is no need for them in today's high-tech, small Army.

Response by SGM Bill Johnson made Nov 29 at 2016 11:30 AM

SGM Bill Johnson — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:30:15 -0500

The enlisted Specialist Ranks in the Army were intended to be similar to the original status of the Warrant Officer ranks; Technical Experts unencumbered with leadership duties. But then unit leaders started looking at Soldiers' Pay Grades as the equivalent of rank and assigning duties by pay instead of by leadership skills. Specialists did lead (supervised and advised), on the job site, but they were not supposed to be "Troop Leaders. I saw the demise of the Specialists ranks early in my career and I think the Army lost a great deal of capability and flexibility when they were done away with.

Response by SPC David Whitney made Nov 29 at 2016 12:09 PM

SPC David Whitney — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:09:26 -0500

I served in the Army Security Agency as a Communication Security Analyst on active duty from 1955-1958 and inactive until 1963, recalled one day and discharged. Like so many of our records in the old ASA many of mine have been fallen down the memory hole. If I recall correctly I was a SPC4 but since I have no DD214 I operate on a DOD form that shows my active duty time and that I was Honorably Discharged but it does not say when. The DOD lists my "Permanent Rank" as "Specialist Third Class" and that is a rank I don't ever remember seeing or hearing of before I saw in on the DOD records form. Anyone else ever hear of the SP3 rating?

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Nov 29 at 2016 12:30 PM

MAJ Hugh Blanchard — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:30:30 -0500

I was a SP5 before making SGT during my enlisted and NCO service. The original higher Specialist ranks were mainly devoted to technical specialties outside of the combat arms. I was a cryptologic voice intercept operator (Russian) 98G when I was promoted to SP5. Later, when I took charge of soldiers in a leadership position, I received SGT's stripes. I cannot recall ever seeing a SP7 or higher...they were pretty rare...

Response by CSM Clifford Fargason made Nov 29 at 2016 4:31 PM

CSM Clifford Fargason — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 16:31:26 -0500

I wore SP4, SPC5, and SP6. The history of ranks is found at:http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Catalog/HeraldryMulti.aspx?CategoryId=9168&grp=2&menu=Uniformed%20Services. I note that at least one comment said that the Specialist ranks went away as Warrant Officers came online. That is not correct, Warrant Officer goes back to 1896 (http://usacac.army.mil/organizations/cace/wocc/woprogram#history) predating the Specialist Ranks.

While at one time the intent may have been to differentiate between leadership and technicians, by the time I was in it was pretty much an MOS thing. Everyone I knew in Combat Arms was hard stripe from E5 and up, Satellite Communications on the other hand (at least from 75-80) was Specialist through E6, then hard stripe after that, although I and some others were erroneously promoted to SSG rather than SP6 and we wore that rank for a year. When our rank was pinned on the SGM pointed out that even though we wore SSG rank, we would still report to and follow the direction of the SP6 that we were working for the day before.

As a former specialist I would disagree with the notion that we should bring back those ranks. The specialist ranks had cutoff scores for promotion, just like the hard stripes. There had to be a slot for promotion just like all the other ranks. As far as the "leadership" idea went, in my reality if there was a perk associated with the NCO rank, then I was not an NCO. If there was a duty that folks would prefer not to do, then the Specialists were considered to be on a par with the NCO of the same pay grade. And in those MOSs that were promoted as Specialists, junior Specialists were under the supervision and control of senior Specialists.

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Response by SSG Wayne Wood made Nov 29 at 2016 6:29 PM

SSG Wayne Wood — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 18:29:41 -0500

I was always under the impression they were originally intended to keep highly skilled personnel in critical technical fields by paying them for their expertise without placing them in command situations for which they really didn't have the experience or training (and would have been an unneeded distraction from what they needed to do anyway). I saw one Sp8 (at SHAPE hospital in Belgium, when I was a dependent edit note: reading some other comments I may have miscounted his stripes above his eagle) and several Sp7s as a dependent and when I first went in myself in the mid-70s. I was in the Field Artillery and we had a couple Sp5s (Spec 5s back then) - they were in the mess hall, we had a couple Sp5 medics and maybe a Sp6; our Survey Section was authorized at least one Sp5 with a "hard stripe" SSG as chief. By the time my first hitch was up many of our E-5s were "converted" to hard stripes.

Technically, SP5s were not supposed to be NCOs but they pulled CQ just like our hard stripe fives - unless they were ED like the spoons. I guess the idea gave way to the realities of the immediate needs of the unit.

Not to belabor the point but a story that illustrates it. When I went through Basic in the Winter of 75 we had a guy who was 29 years old. We called him "Pops" (only in the Army). The guy had a Masters degree in computer programming (which was fairly rare back then) and the Army WANTED this guy and his expertise. He was having problem with PT as he had done nothing very physical since his PE classes in college. Some of the younger Drills were giving him a hard time about him being on profile until one day my platoon sergeant, who was acting Senior Drill Sergeant that day read a letter from DA which put Pops on a PERMANENT PT profile. The Army REALLY WANTED this guy's skill set. My drill sergeant called for a round of applause for Pops - the ONLY guy he'd ever met who'd "screwed" the Army.

From then on, Pops was driven back and forth to the range and when he graduated from Basic he was promoted to SP5 with promotion to SP6 to follow. It was actually in his contract, I was his squad leader so I saw it in writing. THAT is, to me the perfect example of what the Specialist ranks were supposed to be. I just wish I had taken the time to find out more about what his degree was in so I could have gotten one...

Response by SPC Chris Clifton made Nov 29 at 2016 8:51 PM

SPC Chris Clifton — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:51:16 -0500

In Heidelberg, 1990, I ran across the USARE Bandmaster. Crusty old goat, pretty sure he was a SP9. As I was the Bn. promotions clerk, I thought I was up on many things that "were above my grade", so was caught off guard by this weird rank. Looked it up as soon as I got back to my base.

Response by SFC James Hoag made Nov 29 at 2016 9:38 PM

SFC James Hoag — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:38:11 -0500

As an aviator (67N) I was ultimately promoted to SP5 as that was the authorized grade for a UH-1 crewchief before the Army decided they didn't have enough hard stripe NCOs in 1976 so I was automatically converted to Sgt. I knew several SP6's as they were all Technical Inspectors for our aircraft and they too were auto converted around the same time. The specialist did the technical work without the need for the authority. Our platoon sgt's were the standard SFC hard stripe rank.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Monk made Nov 29 at 2016 10:33 PM

SSG Jeffrey Monk — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 22:33:18 -0500

We still have the Specialist 4. But I feel they should bring back the Spec 5-7. There were times I was not in a leadership role and my only distinction from those who were, was the lack of a green felt square on my Gortex and on my Class A's. Trust me, there were many times I felt like a Spec 5 than a Sergeant. Shit jobs have no where to roll down to when more than half the platoon is made up of NCO's.

Response by SSG William Bowen made Nov 29 at 2016 11:13 PM

SSG William Bowen — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 23:13:17 -0500

I think it was more along the lines of combat leaders versus support leaders? Infantry didn't have Spec 5/6, but cooks, medics, mechanics, and other MOS' would. Luckily, the Army kept Spec 4 so most of us could still get promoted fairly quickly. It is much harder to get promoted to E4 in the Marines because it is a flat out Corporal and considered an NCO rank. I believe technically a Sgt had authority over a Spec 6 because he was an NCO and the Spc 6 was not, although the Spc 6 outranked him in E grade. I came in in 1984 and shortly thereafter is when they started eliminating the Spc 5/6. They were instantly promoted to Sgts and SSGs and this made some people mad for a time because typically in order to be a Sgt or SSG, one had to go to a board and make the promotion points according to their MOS and the newly transferred Sgt and SSGS did not. I think it may have been easier for those associated MOS' to get promoted to Spc 5/6, more of an automatic thing, but I am not 100% sure on this because I was in an MOS that did not use the higher Spec ranks.

Response by SGT Chris Padgett made Nov 30 at 2016 1:11 AM

SGT Chris Padgett — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 01:11:25 -0500

1st, you'll notice no CSM in your picture. When I 1st came in, SPC5 and SPC6 was still a thing, but being discontinued.
The reason behind the specialist ranks was due to MOS's. SPC5 and SPC6 didn't really exist with a combat MOS, but was useful for say a mechanic. It was a way for commanders to promote outstanding soldiers without putting them into leadership positions. Personally I think it should have stayed. Look at promotion points and how high they can be for people in support MOS's. If the SPC5 and SPC6 rank was available soldiers could be promoted on merit instead of points.
The downside to the structure, a CPL/E4 outranked a a SPC6. Having said that, I had an SSG who was great at his job, but was chewed up as a leader. His was a case where the specialist ranks would fit nicely.

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Nov 30 at 2016 8:32 AM

SGT Tim Fridley — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 08:32:48 -0500

The SPC was more of a rate then a rank. It was for Non Combat Arms MOSs. They did not have the same duties as an NCO.

Response by SSG Mike Zientek made Nov 30 at 2016 11:28 AM

SSG Mike Zientek — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 11:28:03 -0500

The Army would be smart to bring back the SP5, 6 & 7.
There are many present day NCO's that just dont cut the mustard.
Some people can lead, some cant.
Those that cannot lead, but are technically proficient, could earn the sp5,6,7 ranks.
This could only work if NCO's werent handcuffed with political correctness and paperwork and feelings.
Put feelings aside, right is right, wrong is wrong.
This would require consistent standards that dont waiver from leader to leader or unit to unit.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Nov 30 at 2016 4:17 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 16:17:16 -0500

The purpose of the higher Specialist ranks was to ensure that the ARMY had skilled techs in the assigned fields that were apart from the typical NCO type leaderships MOS. What is interesting is that we need the higher specialist ranks back, specially in the MOS of Cyber Security, were people with physical disabilities but superior brains can serve.

Response by MAJ Richard Cheek made Nov 30 at 2016 9:09 PM

MAJ Richard Cheek — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 21:09:54 -0500

As I understood it as the army was getting so technical in 1960 (don't laugh) they needed a way to promote specialists as they progressed but not give them leadership responsibility. When I came in 1970 I met my first and only Spec7. In 1975 As a SSG I was given all the Spec6s and 5s while we were in the replacement station.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2016 11:28 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 23:28:15 -0500

Many great repsonses. Mine is not unique but is illustrative. Three preople in this story. 1) My dad was an Army helicopter mechanic in the 1960s (including a tour in VietNam as a Huey Crew Chief), he turned down "hard stripes" so he could keep working on helicopters. Less than 30 years later I was a brand new aviation lieutenant; 2) my first platoon sergeant was a great leader, helicopter mechanic, and trainer of helicopter mechanics (I hope I learned alot from him). His replacement was not as well rounded, 3) that E7 could fix helicopters but couldn't teach. One particular time I saw him fixing a helicopter while 3 E4 and an E3 watched. Three years later I met him again on the flight line at Ft Rucker, he was working for the maintenance contractor doing what he did well - fixing helicopters.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Dec 1 at 2016 1:30 AM

SPC Byron Skinner — Thu, 01 Dec 2016 01:30:11 -0500

Sp4 Byron Skinner. Getting rid of the specialists rank was very dumb on the part of the Army and very expensive. Making all E-5's NCO and sending them through the schools and all the other crap a Sgt has to do is crap to some if not many soldiers most likely why the leave the Army after a single enlistment. The Specialists opens up jobs to MOS's like armor where many drivers and gunners were spec 5's, Medics where many of the Medics serving with line units were Spec. 5 or 6, head cooks wet often Spec 5's, Infantry Crew Served Weapons such as mortar and machine-gun held Spec 5 rank. The highest Specialist Rank I saw was I think a Spec 8, it was worn on an EOD Specialist. Spec 7's were not uncommon for Mess Sgts. of a Battalion Consolidated Mess, consolidated Meses were rare nearly all including Regimental HQ Company has their individual Mess facilities and no civilian workers all soldiers…This is something that should be brought back.

Response by SGT David Petree made Dec 1 at 2016 3:54 AM

SGT David Petree — Thu, 01 Dec 2016 03:54:17 -0500

For me SP5 was a right of passage to being a Sgt in 63 series , & 64 series. The SP6 & 7 that I ran into drove staff car for NATO. SP`s were just that, techs in what they did. Some times they filled in where there were ether no NCO`s or just 1 NCO in a platoon .In 1975 I went from SP4 to Sgt because they did away with SP5 in maintenances .

Response by MSG Don Burt made Dec 1 at 2016 6:11 PM

MSG Don Burt — Thu, 01 Dec 2016 18:11:18 -0500

Why are you an SPC and not a Corporal?

Response by SSG Lance Sawyer made Dec 2 at 2016 9:07 AM

SSG Lance Sawyer — Fri, 02 Dec 2016 09:07:04 -0500

These ranks were also used for people who were good at their job, but not necessarily good leaders. There are a couple of guys in my company that are really good at their jobs, but aren't the kind of person who would make a good leader. This has held them back from promotion. I wish they would bring those ranks back for guys like that. They don't necessarily deserve to be held back just because they aren't good leaders.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2016 2:05 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Dec 2016 02:05:26 -0500

I keep on hearing the sentiment that we should bring back the Senior Specialist Ranks because there are NCO's that are great soldiers/technicians/good at their job/etc, but not great at leading troops.

I think this gives a false impression of what those Specialist Ranks did (or could do). The Senior specialist ranks were not intended to be a hiding place to dump poor leaders. It was an administrative designation for jobs that did not require traditional military leadership roles like Combat Arms. For example, a senior technician working in the Pentagon or Hospital administration, could have been a SPC8 or SPC9. These Soldiers did not rise to those positions due to an inability to lead. Far from it. In fact, these Soldiers often manage entire departments in the same manner that an Infantry PSG manages a platoon.

If, for some reason, the Army decided to return to the system, you can bet that the Specialist track would have it's own evaluation system, and the soldiers would need to follow the same level of PME and STEP that is currently in use.

Response by SPC Terry Williamson made Dec 11 at 2016 6:15 PM

SPC Terry Williamson — Sun, 11 Dec 2016 18:15:26 -0500

While with the 1st Cav , 83-85, met 1 Spc7 , he was our senior medic and had been a flight medic during Vietnam with a list of credentials that you would not believe .

Response by SSG Kurt Edwards made Dec 16 at 2016 8:17 PM

SSG Kurt Edwards — Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:17:28 -0500

Thing is, I med- discharged as a SSG(P) never a SP6! Where they got THAT From I have no clue. Rank was deprecated long before I went in in 87

Response by SPC Thomas Martin made Dec 20 at 2016 12:51 AM

SPC Thomas Martin — Tue, 20 Dec 2016 00:51:22 -0500

In some ways the Specialist ranks are similar to the Warrant Officer ranks, a WO4 or a WO5 is subordinate to a O1, but yet the Warrants are specialist officers. They aren't necessarily in a leadership role like regular commissioned officers.
I always felt sandbagged when I was in (1986 (MO-NG)-1989 and AD 1989-1996), I was very technically proficient in my MOS (39CX5) and being a very narrow field, I never was able to get promoted, as I would move on and it was hard to get a 39CX5, so I was stuck as a E4 for my 8 year enlistment.
When we came down on alerts our E5 39CX5 was on the line for it, but when Somolia came up, the radar section wouldn't have him and wanted me, the lowly E4...... I was the one who knew the system and I wasn't even school trained X5 at the time.

Response by SPC Charles Bezouska made Jan 2 at 2017 8:12 PM

SPC Charles Bezouska — Mon, 02 Jan 2017 20:12:14 -0500

Like the old Tech Sgt. ranks, they were used for non-combat senior personnel in specialized jobs like mechanics, medics, finance and cooks.

Response by SP5 John Anderson made Feb 9 at 2017 9:18 PM

SP5 John Anderson — Thu, 09 Feb 2017 21:18:14 -0500

SPC O'Hara:
I made SP/5 during my 18 months in combat during the Vietnam War. I went through two six month MOS's at Ft. Sill, Oklahoma. I was sent to RVN in September 1967, was put in charge of group of specialized combat troops and spent most of the time in the very worst parts of the "boonies". Because of our reputation for collecting Intel affectively, I received several "battlefield promotions". I went from PFC to Sp/5 in less than a year. Normally, Specialist ranks in Vietnam were special duty and not usually in charge of large numbers of troops. However, I was one of the exceptions to that rule. Other specialty ranks ranks were in electronics, crypto, radar crew leaders, electronic surveillance, MI, and countless other job areas. Not all of us were cooks, supply, or even "paper pushers". Some of us fought side by side with the "legs" and bled just as red. Both teams that I led (34 total), in the most remote parts of Southeast Asia, treated me with ultimate respect and dignity. It was never about the rank, it was about the respect for that person. I was proud to be called Specialist, or Sergeant or even "asshole" as long as it was done with respect. Everyone on my combat teams were Specialists in their own rights and always deserved my undying love and respect. Only three of us (out of 35) survived Vietnam.

Response by SP5 Michael Gold made Feb 19 at 2017 12:37 PM

SP5 Michael Gold — Sun, 19 Feb 2017 12:37:11 -0500

Allow for higher ranks in technical fields.

Response by SP5 Gary Carriger made Mar 12 at 2017 7:40 PM

SP5 Gary Carriger — Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:40:21 -0400

The Specialist ranks were created to reward personnel with higher degrees of experience and technical knowledge. Appointment to either specialist or non-commissioned officer status was determined by military occupational specialty (MOS). These are solders, who are highly trained at a particular skill, but whom you would not necessarily want to be in the position of an NCO.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 12 at 2017 7:58 PM

COL Charles Williams — Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:58:48 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member I know I am late to the game, but... The Specialist Rank was initially developed for Soldiers or grades E-4 thru (generally) E-9 to reward special skills and expertise. But it seems in reality over time they were in technical jobs, but not serving as leaders. It was present when I enlisted in 1980 (4,5,6), but by 1985 was gone. At Fort Wainwright AK, our PAC clerk, as an example, was a Spec 5 - Spec 5 Voight.

It appears 8 and 9 disappeared on 68 and 7 and 78.

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Catalog/HeraldryMulti.aspx?CategoryId=9168&grp=2&menu=Uniformed%20Services

Enlisted Rank Insignia

The purpose of this site is to provide information on United States Army heraldic entitlements; how they are displayed, and how and why it is worn.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Mar 14 at 2017 1:24 PM

PV2 Glen Lewis — Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:24:20 -0400

If I remember right a specialist designation was for whatever field a soldier'd specific training in as opposed to a straight infantry designation.

Response by MSG Don Burt made Apr 6 at 2017 7:04 PM

MSG Don Burt — Thu, 06 Apr 2017 19:04:51 -0400

The SPC rank/rate was set apart from the NCO to distinguish the Technical/Medical/Admin personnel. With that being said the corporal E4 is considered an NCO as opposed to the SP/4 grade and hence, the NCO would just about always be put into the position of Leadership rather than a SPC. These remarks can be expanded further but too much space is needed.

Response by SP5 Eddie Woods Jr made Apr 9 at 2017 9:11 AM

SP5 Eddie Woods Jr — Sun, 09 Apr 2017 09:11:01 -0400

You know I was promoted to SP/5 in Germany and given the power plant section there to command so I was given temporary hard strips so I could have command responsibility and this was 1969,1970.

Response by SP5 Robert Spangler made Jul 15 at 2017 7:35 PM

SP5 Robert Spangler — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 19:35:21 -0400

I joined in 77 and served till 84. I was a Spec 5 and we had Specialists in my unit up to Spec 7 as best I recall. The Specialist ranks were for technical expertise and were not supposed to be used as NCOs. The reality is that Specialists did serve as supervisors where I served, I was a shift supervisor and supervised a PLL office (electronic supplies)and we had many specialist ranked supervisors at the Com-center where I was detailed. I never saw or heard of a Spec8 or 9, the graphic you posted was news to me, lol.

Response by MSgt John C. made Jul 15 at 2017 9:04 PM

MSgt John C. — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 21:04:15 -0400

Here's a good reference that addresses specialist rank. http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/non_commissioned_officer/CMH_70-38.pdf
Read pages 270 thru 273

CMH_70-38.pdf

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Response by SP5 Tom Manning made Jul 20 at 2017 4:36 PM

SP5 Tom Manning — Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:36:27 -0400

I was in 68-71 and spec grades where quite prevalent in the aircraft support companies . we had a spec 8 and quite a few spec 7's in company who worked mainly on the avionics of the birds. I came out a spec5 with a 63h30/76p30/and 52d30 mos'

Response by SP5 Ted Papesh made Jul 26 at 2017 2:57 PM

SP5 Ted Papesh — Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:57:43 -0400

It also was used in the Medical corps. especially for 91C (LPN)

Response by SP5 John Kirtley made Aug 1 at 2017 7:46 PM

SP5 John Kirtley — Tue, 01 Aug 2017 19:46:52 -0400

During the Vietnam war I was a Helicopter crew chief/Gunner. Made SP5 while I was there, I re-enlisted in 74 and went to ADA Nike Hercules missile crewman and was immediately changed on orders to Sgt.. Combat arms as opposed to specialty I guess.

Response by SSG Gerald King made Aug 3 at 2017 8:49 PM

SSG Gerald King — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 20:49:21 -0400

Although no-one was ever promoted to the ranks of SP8 or SP9, I was surprised to see a soldier with SP9 stripes in the movie, 7 Days in May. If you look quickly, you will see a SP9 at a desk in the room full of military personnel where Kirk Douglas is getting some information.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Aug 4 at 2017 2:04 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 14:04:55 -0400

In some MOSs a person needs to know more and more about the field or the equipment without supervising troops. He may not be able to lead others but without him the machine won't work. On the other hand some jobs depend on leadership regardless of ability to take the machine apart. Good idea that fell apart in implementation. I don't think there were any SP9s and only a few SP8s

Response by SPC Darold Sage made Aug 12 at 2017 12:15 PM

SPC Darold Sage — Sat, 12 Aug 2017 12:15:33 -0400

I do believe from ww2 to Vietnam it was a Tec and not spc some time in the late 60's early 70s they changed over to spc they had the rank of cpl in the army but only in the Infantry don't know any more

Response by SP6 David Loman made Aug 28 at 2017 2:06 PM

SP6 David Loman — Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:06:37 -0400

They were specialist in there feels but there were not in command positions

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2017 10:20 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Sep 2017 22:20:37 -0400

There was an old rumor that the one and only ever SP8 was the hangman at Leavenworth but I think that's an urban legend... would still be kinda cool though, haha

Response by SPC Rick Szabo made Sep 2 at 2017 4:54 PM

SPC Rick Szabo — Sat, 02 Sep 2017 16:54:31 -0400

Non-leadership

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Sep 2 at 2017 7:39 PM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Sat, 02 Sep 2017 19:39:39 -0400

Just to keep it real... i once witnessed a Sgt E-5 tell a Spec-7 to shut up & do as he was told. Womack Army Hospital, Ft Bragg NC, Sept 1974.

Response by SGT Chuck Keller made Sep 28 at 2017 2:42 AM

SGT Chuck Keller — Thu, 28 Sep 2017 02:42:58 -0400

Not sure if the SPC ranks would work in todays army, with the restructure of the Army into BCT's, support elements have been disbanded and soaked up into these BCT to form sections so the BCT can self contain its self for movements and rapid deployments.

Response by SP5 Roy Harland made Oct 14 at 2017 11:12 PM

SP5 Roy Harland — Sat, 14 Oct 2017 23:12:15 -0400

I know the original idea was to recruit and retain skilled blue collar workers.

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made Oct 23 at 2017 12:18 PM

SPC Christopher Perrien — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 12:18:39 -0400

To keep the army from being full of unneeded sergeants and to keep specialized soldiers in

Response by SSG Danny Miller made Nov 14 at 2017 7:28 PM

SSG Danny Miller — Tue, 14 Nov 2017 19:28:36 -0500

Because we’re smarter than the regular nco’s. Maybe just kidding. I believe it was the high Special technical mos‘s we had. But that’s just my opinion.

Response by SGT Jerry Walker made Dec 20 at 2017 1:09 PM

SGT Jerry Walker — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 13:09:55 -0500

no one ever made Spec 9

Response by SGT James Gillis made Feb 23 at 2018 9:32 PM

SGT James Gillis — Fri, 23 Feb 2018 21:32:02 -0500

Not everyone that is well versed in their field is qualified to be a leader, but still deserve a promotion

Response by SP5 Dave Kelly made Feb 24 at 2018 6:26 PM

SP5 Dave Kelly — Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:26:39 -0500

As it was explained to me the biggest difference was a specialist had no command authority where hard stripes did. Many of the specialist MOS's had no corresponding MOS in hard striped MOS's.

Response by SFC Timothy Wieboldt made Apr 23 at 2018 2:36 PM

SFC Timothy Wieboldt — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:36:38 -0400

I think only Sergeants were boarded for promotion points. I was still a Spc in 1985 when they all went away.

Response by SPC Mike Davis made Apr 23 at 2018 3:14 PM

SPC Mike Davis — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 15:14:53 -0400

Was a Sp-4 (full-bird PFC) 1960-1962. HF radio tech. We did not think about rank very much. The lab was not very military. So the rank (or what ever it was) was great for us. Pay of a Corporal without having to do the military thing.

Response by SGT Aric Lier made Apr 23 at 2018 5:25 PM

SGT Aric Lier — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:25:47 -0400

spc-9 is the mafia GOD!!

Response by SSG Charles Neathery made Apr 29 at 2018 11:09 PM

SSG Charles Neathery — Sun, 29 Apr 2018 23:09:13 -0400

Enlisted in '68, became an E-5 in Vietnam in '70. Our medic was a specialist 5. Our mechanics were specialists. NCO's played the leadership role and had the responsibility to ensure their duties were being performed. ETS '71, college, 2 years, Missed the troops, enlisted again, airborne instructor, attained the rank of E-6. Up for the board for E-7, ETS in '76, and at that time the specialists were still the same. And that's what they were, specializing in their field, of their MOS. Normally, medics, mechanics, clerks, cooks, etc, the men who kept the wheels turning.

Response by SP5 Azazel Nephilim made May 2 at 2018 10:01 PM

SP5 Azazel Nephilim — Wed, 02 May 2018 22:01:36 -0400

to be horrible to their subordinates

Response by SP5 Edward Auld made May 11 at 2018 5:18 PM

SP5 Edward Auld — Fri, 11 May 2018 17:18:06 -0400

I was a Sp 5 in 1962 fixing artillery missiles....Had lots of training on fixing those things.....

Response by PVT Mark Brown made May 30 at 2018 12:56 AM

PVT Mark Brown — Wed, 30 May 2018 00:56:29 -0400

I would suspect that a soldier attaining the rank of Spec 6 (E-6) would choose to follow the Warrant Officer career path when the time for promotion came around. I knew a couple guys in Korea that actually did promote to SFC (E-7) from SPC 6 (E-6) who both commission within a very short time to CWO (CWO3 as I recall and there were only 4 warrant grades at that time.)

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 30 at 2018 1:28 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Wed, 30 May 2018 01:28:17 -0400

You know, it's interesting you ask that...during WW2, I'd seen NCO chevrons with a capital 'T" marked on them, I'd never quite known what hat meant, I think Sgt and up, I know I'd seen it, in various video and films, just thought I'd !mention that if anyone might have a clue, I'll try to find stuff in it....

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 30 at 2018 1:29 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Wed, 30 May 2018 01:29:36 -0400

And of always rather struck !e that the SPC ranks were rather akin to a kind of enlisted analogue to warrants...perhaps that:s a facile analogy, I kmpw, I merely !mention it as a thought that had occurred to me awhile back....

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 30 at 2018 1:32 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Wed, 30 May 2018 01:32:41 -0400

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technician_fifth_grade

I think I found it, I was wrong, apparently, there's a photo of corporal insignia with a T displayed, have a look....

Technician fifth grade - Wikipedia

Technician Fifth Grade (abbreviated as T/5 or TEC 5) was a United States Army technician rank during World War II. Those who held this rank were addressed as Corporal, though were often called a "Tech Corporal". Technicians possessed specialized skills that were rewarded with a higher pay grade. The pay grade number corresponded with the technician's rank. T/5 was under the pay grade 5, along with Corporal. Technicians were easily...

Response by SP5 Stephen Chota made Jun 14 at 2018 3:29 PM

SP5 Stephen Chota — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 15:29:02 -0400

I believe specialist rank only went up to E7. I was a Spec5 and they offered me 6 and 6 for 6. Thats a promotion to E6 and $6000 if I re upped for 6 years. This was back in 69.

Response by SP5 Stephen Chota made Jun 14 at 2018 3:39 PM

SP5 Stephen Chota — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 15:39:09 -0400

Back then a unit was only allotted X amount of slots for hard ranks (Sgts). You had lifers who had time in and needed skills and experience. This is how you kept them on active duty. You promoted them as specialists and sometime they would make these guys acting sergeants( acting jacks ). I dont know how they keep career soldiers in now days without this promotion avenue.

Response by Melinda Curtis made Jul 25 at 2018 1:43 PM

Melinda Curtis — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:43:08 -0400

What is an E-7?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2018 11:34 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:34:33 -0400

Need to bring it back. Plenty of good soldiers who deserve pay raises but are horrible at leading soldiers, and plenty of positions that are impossible to write and NCOER for a SSG that has 0 subordinates

Response by MSG Dickie Towers made Aug 2 at 2018 8:29 PM

MSG Dickie Towers — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 20:29:17 -0400

I continue to believe that no soldier was ever promoted to either SP8 or SP9, all the DA Memos verify this, butvwhy do some say these 2 Ranks were used?
I would like just one photo of with rank on a person.
My email: [login to see]

Response by SPC Stephen Walsh made Aug 13 at 2018 7:31 PM

SPC Stephen Walsh — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 19:31:59 -0400

Back in my day 1964 Specialist E-4 to E-9 were to denote skill level They were not in chain of command. Some units signal,postal,chaplains etc only had Specialist rank.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Sep 5 at 2018 9:47 AM

LTC Jason Mackay — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 09:47:17 -0400

The Center for Military History Published this SPC Private RallyPoint Member . http://ncohistory.com/site/2018/01/02/short-history-specialist-rank/

short-history-specialist-rank

Response by SPC Jimmy Rooks I made Oct 2 at 2018 11:37 PM

SPC Jimmy Rooks I — Tue, 02 Oct 2018 23:37:23 -0400

Mostly they were a means of retaining technicians past the point where non-comms were considered useful

Response by SPC Mike Davis made Oct 3 at 2018 8:28 AM

SPC Mike Davis — Wed, 03 Oct 2018 08:28:33 -0400

I was a SP-4 in 60-62. Always looked at my position this way. Full-Bird PFC.

Response by SP6 Terry Rose made Jan 15 at 2019 6:49 PM

SP6 Terry Rose — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 18:49:39 -0500

The higher specialists ranks were the vanguard in their areas. We had responsibilities that equaled or went beyond the NCO ranks, however we did have NCO's that we reported to . I was the Lead Rotory Wing, Technical inspector, when I inspected an aircraft a nco did not sign me off, I had a Maintenance Officer who would preflight with me and verify that all critical work had been completed and the aircraft was ready for Test flight.

Response by SFC Steve Wikoff made Feb 4 at 2019 7:00 AM

SFC Steve Wikoff — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 07:00:42 -0500

Spec 8 and 9 were only notional ranks and were never worn by soldiers.

Response by SFC Steve Wikoff made Feb 4 at 2019 7:06 AM

SFC Steve Wikoff — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 07:06:58 -0500

I was one of the last 128 SP6 in the Army and was "promoted" to SSG in 1985. While technically a Corporal outranked a Sp6 it was much like technically a 2LT outranks a CSM.

Response by SSG Marcus Johnson made Mar 8 at 2019 9:44 AM

SSG Marcus Johnson — Fri, 08 Mar 2019 09:44:19 -0500

The specialist rank during that time was mainly Spec 4 to Spec 6. There were some Spec 7's. Although Spec 8 and Spec 9 were authorized no one ever held those ranks. The only one left now is Spec 4.

Response by SP5 Ross Grenz made Apr 18 at 2019 9:38 AM

SP5 Ross Grenz — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 09:38:16 -0400

A specialist dealt with his/her craft/trade/skill not a people trainer. much like the warrant officers, more of a trade and less troop movements.

Response by SPC Melody Joyce made Jun 15 at 2020 9:18 PM

SPC Melody Joyce — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 21:18:36 -0400

Because those specialist’s ranks were technician ranks. By the time that I served in the early 1980’s, everyone that I knew went from Sp/4 to sgt not Sp/5 or Sp/6. Corporal’s in the US Army are nonexistent, too. As an E-4, SP/4, I spent my last year wearing Sgt stripes with out the pay or promotion! I was an “Acting Jack.” I got out because of it. I couldn’t get the true promotion...

Response by SPC Michael Holden made Jun 20 at 2020 7:41 AM

SPC Michael Holden — Sat, 20 Jun 2020 07:41:27 -0400

I was in 76-79 active and we were always told that it had to do with the ability to issue lawful orders. Only hard stripes could issues lawful orders and the Specialist ranks did not need that authority.

Response by SPC Bill Ratajczak made Jan 11 at 2021 9:59 PM

SPC Bill Ratajczak — Mon, 11 Jan 2021 21:59:23 -0500

My understanding is that Specialist ranks were for non combat line soldiers. Clerks and jerks! I say as a E4 Specialist.

Response by SP5 Charles Goldsmith made Jan 15 at 2021 10:27 AM

SP5 Charles Goldsmith — Fri, 15 Jan 2021 10:27:57 -0500

Before I was discharged I was told CO if I would reup,I was a SP5, I would be sent to NCO academy and become SSGT. At the same time there was a RIF and all E6 with 20years were being discharged. (OCT 1971) What was my incentive to reup?

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made Jan 19 at 2021 1:47 PM

Cpl Bernard Bates — Tue, 19 Jan 2021 13:47:41 -0500

I joined the Army in 1963 after spending 4yrs in the Marine Corp., discharged as a Cpl. I went into the Army as a Pfc. 13months later I was a SP/5. I only worked in my MOS 2311 for a short period of time. I was made Company Armorer when he got discharged, then supply clerk when he got discharged, then Supply Sgt. when he went AWOL. I hated the SP/5 rank because when they needed an NCO. you acted as an NCO. When they needed a peon you were treated as a peon. I never hardly worked in my MOS. but I was a specialist. I was whatever the Army needed at the time. I could handle any job the Army gave me because I had been in the Marine Corp. I went to Vietnam with the 205th Ord. Plt (Ammo) as a supply Sgt. although a Plt. doesn't rate one. I had 3 months left in Vietnam and I was offered 2nd/LT. if I would stay another year. I chose to go home to my wife of 8 months. I've seen NCO's that didn't lead That should have been SP/5. Semper Fi.

Response by SP6 Shirley Barksdale made Feb 17 at 2021 9:11 PM

SP6 Shirley Barksdale — Wed, 17 Feb 2021 21:11:29 -0500

Ssg

Response by SGT Mark Stanford made Mar 6 at 2021 7:02 PM

SGT Mark Stanford — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 19:02:18 -0500

I'm assuming your grandfather served in the mid 50s.... I suddenly feel comparatively old. My grandfather served in the Army Air Corps. I joined a little late in the year 2000. (I could have joined in '96.) There was a lot of talk about the SPC rank structure when I was in air defense (14E). I later became a medic 91W/68W. I had a senior NCO that was a 63S who knew a SPC6.

Response by Steve Barnett made Apr 2 at 2021 12:42 AM

Steve Barnett — Fri, 02 Apr 2021 00:42:09 -0400

My Dad was a SP-5 at Bien Hoa and Phu Loi Army Airfields in Vietnam. He was a Powerplant mechanic for the AH-1 (Cobra) and mechanic & Crew Chief qualified on the UH-1 Iroquois (Huey) helicopters, from 1970 to 71'. He said that he preferred the SP rank as he did not have to deal with people, their personalities or their politics, just machines. While he did not hold an infantry MOS, he said that he had his fair share of combat. From manning the M-60 on the Huey/Slick, performing perimeter guard watch at night, to going into the jungle to retrieve dead pilots and soldiers while stripping the helicopters for parts. If we did not get to the crash sites soon enough, they would already be stripped and the parts they needed would appear on the black market.

Regarding the Specialist 5 rank, he stated that as long as none of his birds did not get red tagged for poor maintnance and sub-par engineering, he was left alone by the NCOs'. It makes it easier to stay out of the cross hairs or under the proverbial radar as long as you do your job.