What would you do if you knew a MAJ submitted a fraudulent DA Form 705 APFT & DA Form 5500 Body Composition in a packet?

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 May 2016 22:59:13 -0400

If while formulating your solution you get stuck, you may submit a Request for Information (RFI). I will not solve it for you, but if you require more information or need some guidance that is fine.

Here is a point of reference:
Two female Soldiers >40 years old:
Soldier A - 63” tall 126 lbs. Body Composition Tape: 26% Army Wellness Center Pod: 27%
Soldier B - 64” tall 173 lbs. Body Composition Tape: 25% Army Wellness Center Pod: Refused

Discuss.....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 11:03 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 May 2016 23:03:30 -0400

She shouldn't be able to go. She is an integrity violation. She was selected falsely

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made May 5 at 2016 11:04 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Thu, 05 May 2016 23:04:11 -0400

If I knew for a fact that the major did that, I would report it. By not doing so, I am endorsing and agreeing with it, therefore I would be just as guilty as the major. The only thing in this world that anyone owns is their integrity. No one can take it, but it can be given away or sold.

Response by MSgt Darum Danford made May 5 at 2016 11:06 PM

MSgt Darum Danford — Thu, 05 May 2016 23:06:01 -0400

remove him for whatever he was selected for (I'm AF and gave no idea what AGR is) and that's easily an Article 15 offense.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 11:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 May 2016 23:29:39 -0400

Honestly not much you can do as a enlisted member but report it through the chain of command, but lets be real, we still live in a check down not up enviroment, and unless the BN Commander gets involved he/she will slip through the cracks

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 5 at 2016 11:30 PM

COL Charles Williams — Thu, 05 May 2016 23:30:57 -0400

Well CSM Private RallyPoint Member , if the documents were fraudulent and led to a positive selection, that should be considered "fruits of the poisonous tree" and the selection should be revoked.

Response by Jordan Gaudard made May 5 at 2016 11:40 PM

Jordan Gaudard — Thu, 05 May 2016 23:40:38 -0400

CSM Baldwin, you let them get the slot and make it someone else's problems right? Oh wait, you mean what I would do not what everyone in the past has done. I apologize CSM, I am tired of receiving SPC/SGT/SSG from units that clearly cannot pass H&W or an APFT then I have to be the bad guy and flag them. I don't let people pass go if they do not deserve to collect $200. I have a SSG now that has issues making it to formations and I held his feet to the fire. I attempted to do it before Christmas but I was pushed aside due to it being around the holidays and allowing him to have one more chance. Then he did it two more times, and is now pending UCMJ finally and I am still considered the mean Platoon Sergeant for doing it. Even had someone today tell me that he was told I was the reason SSG Unnamed was still in our unit because of his Article 15. Which is half true, if you believe I am the reason he did not show up to formation.

For this exact scenario, we do not need untrustworthy individuals in our ranks. I don't want to have to worry about the individuals to my left and right, and especially don't need a leader that has poor morals. I would get the commander to order this person to get a fair height and weight, flag this person if they fail. Get a commanders inquiry to see if there is enough evidence on the integrity of the test they forged to give them an article 15.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 11:45 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 May 2016 23:45:32 -0400

I find it lacking any integrity to do this kind of action.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 12:12 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 00:12:02 -0400

Hey, why not. He probably didn't mean it.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made May 6 at 2016 12:25 AM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Fri, 06 May 2016 00:25:46 -0400

UCMJ, Art 133. And slam those others with knowledge of the situation as well!

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 1:00 AM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 01:00:59 -0400

I will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 6 at 2016 1:16 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Fri, 06 May 2016 01:16:35 -0400

Should be punished officially and also have the selection revoked

Response by SFC David Pratt made May 6 at 2016 2:09 AM

SFC David Pratt — Fri, 06 May 2016 02:09:03 -0400

Integrity is the cornerstone...... this officer needs to be rated below center mass and then tossed on his/her ass.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 6 at 2016 3:43 AM

Maj John Bell — Fri, 06 May 2016 03:43:59 -0400

There isn't much meat here for the formulation of an opinion. But it sounds like a violation of Article 107 False Statement. Having said that, for enlisted personnel there may be some wiggle room in the sentencing if found guilty. For an officer, drummed out. Special trust and confidence. Pay no attention to the theme song, only visual.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKmJPnAGUJk

Branded

Intro to the western TV series Branded.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 6 at 2016 6:42 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 06 May 2016 06:42:58 -0400

Not to be blunt, but what is the "official process" if you think something is jacked up and out of your direct control?

We have the "Request Mast" process when it directly affects ourselves, but that does not seem applicable here. It sounds like the (her) Commander has already been involved.

If in doubt "Escalate." Approach the Senior Enlisted Advisor of the next higher echelon and see about getting the higher commander involved. You don't want to screw your boss (going behind his back), but you don't want a dirt back to get away with it either.

As Cpl Rc Layne said, once you are aware of the situation, failure to investigate/report makes you complicit in the matter.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made May 6 at 2016 6:50 AM

CPT Mark Gonzalez — Fri, 06 May 2016 06:50:31 -0400

Doesn't the reg require a taper and an observer? Unless the document was forged you have two NCOs every bit as guilty as one officer.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 6:51 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 06:51:02 -0400

at this point it doesn't sound like there is anything you can do if its just your word vs. theirs.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 7:11 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 07:11:05 -0400

That's filing a false report, and it is grounds for immediate loss of commission. However, if you don't want to go that route, it is grounds for a LOR at the very least.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 7:50 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 07:50:30 -0400

Call IG

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 10:11 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 10:11:34 -0400

I've called out NCO's and Officers on suspicious documents before. One Senior NCO wanted me to sign off on his 2-1 and 705 for an upcoming board. I looked at his 705 and couldn't recognize who supposedly signed and initialed his test. When confronted about it he kind of changed the subject and went to someone else. I brought this to my commands attention but unfortunately they did nothing about it. This Soldier has never taken an APFT with the unit but someone manages to get updated scores in DTMS and although he has a bigger stomach then Santa Claus he consistently manages to pass his tape. (By a good margin too). I make a point to take a test with my unit so that there can be no perception of bias.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made May 6 at 2016 11:05 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Fri, 06 May 2016 11:05:14 -0400

CSM Private RallyPoint Member It should be reported if you are sure of the info. If you only suspect it, I would still discuss it with my commander and explain the reason for suspecting it. Bottom line is that it should not be ignored.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 11:16 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 11:16:52 -0400

It's funny this topic came on RallyPoint today because a CPT got promoted yesterday to MAJ and the entire chain of command knows she did not pass her BF. There has always been controversy when she goes to get it down and somehow she always passes on the second time around. But I pursued it until I PCS'd and nothing ever happened. Meanwhile, I see others being given their letters and thanks for their service.

Response by SGT Casey Lovell made May 6 at 2016 11:22 AM

SGT Casey Lovell — Fri, 06 May 2016 11:22:30 -0400

Follow your CoC, carefully taking the skulls of all involved Training Rooms and S1s on your way up. Push to have a Battalion leadership conduct the re-tape and start the bye-bye packet.

Response by MAJ L. Nicholas Smith made May 6 at 2016 11:22 AM

MAJ L. Nicholas Smith — Fri, 06 May 2016 11:22:45 -0400

It depends on whether there is evidence and/or witnesses (plural) or if this is a suspicion. Regardless of whichever it happens to be, it should be reported.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 11:48 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 11:48:06 -0400

Report it up the chain with the actual factual evidence in hand.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made May 6 at 2016 12:26 PM

SSG Richard Reilly — Fri, 06 May 2016 12:26:12 -0400

Turn him/her in. False official documents is a violations if the UCMJ no matter what rank you are.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 12:57 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 12:57:24 -0400

The same thing I did when an E4 did it in my unit, take it to the commander and advocate for his swift exit from our ranks.

Response by SFC(P) John McLaughlin made May 6 at 2016 1:38 PM

SFC(P) John McLaughlin — Fri, 06 May 2016 13:38:19 -0400

It sounds like dereliction of duty on all parts. I have witnessed this before while on AGR status for the PA National Guard Recruiting and Retention. I did not make a scene but I did go through my team leader and he challenged my integrity. Me being a combat vet told the said team leader in the most respectful manner you cannot lead behind closed doors. Then worked it up the chain. Ultimately nothing happened but I did my part in reporting it.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 4:15 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 16:15:19 -0400

It is always best to do what is right. We know what right and wrong is.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 4:43 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 16:43:38 -0400

This exact thing happened at the current duty location where I'm at. A CPT (P) lied about his age right before a APFT/HT-WT although his actual birthday was in 2 weeks and he passed the allowed screening body fat percentage and ultimately got promoted. Only a little while after the fact when the training room was auditing their records did someone catch the fact that he posted the wrong age 2 weeks earlier then he should of and after the issue was brought he then received UCMJ and was technically forced to seperate form the Army.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made May 6 at 2016 6:02 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 06 May 2016 18:02:29 -0400

If it can be withdrawn approach the Major and advise him or her to pull it, in either case if it goes forward report them.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 6:08 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 18:08:40 -0400

CSM, what would you do if you knew a SGM that did this? The answer should be the same.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made May 6 at 2016 6:36 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Fri, 06 May 2016 18:36:45 -0400

The ball will be in the superior's court.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 6:46 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 18:46:56 -0400

If you got no joy through the chain of Command, report it to the proponent of the packet.

Response by SPC Rory J. Mattheisen made May 6 at 2016 10:19 PM

SPC Rory J. Mattheisen — Fri, 06 May 2016 22:19:42 -0400

I would have reported it, and braced for exit. Opening shock would have seemed like nothing compare to the impact I made on the street after being chaptered.

Response by SSG James Elmore made May 7 at 2016 12:21 AM

SSG James Elmore — Sat, 07 May 2016 00:21:57 -0400

Been there... He go turned in along with the 1sg that filled out the paperwork and the cw3 that signed off on it...

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made May 7 at 2016 12:43 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sat, 07 May 2016 00:43:30 -0400

If I have % proof it is false, he doesn't pass go, doesn't collect 200. I first would confront the Major in person in person to see if he wants to retract it. If not, then I go to the TNG Officer/NCO and present the facts, if nothing, then to the CDR.
I was in the position once as SNCO when my unit was to take a APFT. Everyone was there except the XO. Finally he comes out in BDUs and I state we are waiting for him to get changed. He said he wasn't taking the test. I asked if he had a profile, no he didn't. I then stated he needed to changed. He tried to intimidate me, but I never backed down. The CDR came out, looked at the XO and me as asked what the problem was, I explained. The CDR looked at the XO and told him he either right this minute goes to the TMC and gets a profile or get changed. He went and got a profile.

Response by SSG(P) Timme Jones made May 7 at 2016 1:07 AM

SSG(P) Timme Jones — Sat, 07 May 2016 01:07:44 -0400

I personally would uphold the standard. It is our duty as Noncomissioned Officers to live by the standards and make sure other soldiers do too.

Response by SSG Jay OConnor made May 7 at 2016 5:33 AM

SSG Jay OConnor — Sat, 07 May 2016 05:33:42 -0400

A lack of integrity is a lack of integrity. He (or she) is not living the Army values. He should be punished like anyone else.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made May 7 at 2016 6:22 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Sat, 07 May 2016 06:22:09 -0400

Not to rock the boat to hard, I'd let the proper people know about the act, ask to have my name with held for secure reasons, and let the person try to weasel their way out of it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 7:29 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 May 2016 07:29:43 -0400

I think that this video may help us understand, why this can happen within our ranks. I don't necessarily agree with what happens during a peace time military, but we know it happens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NW8vHfgnC6Q

Uncle J's Simple Truths- Peacetime v. Wartime Armies

Which Generals matter, which ones are warriors and which are paper pushers.

Response by SSG Vik Polivka made May 7 at 2016 9:24 AM

SSG Vik Polivka — Sat, 07 May 2016 09:24:24 -0400

I'd talk to the MAJ in private, and offer a chance to correct the issue. If I was ignored, then I'd report it, and get ready to do a lot of BN staff duty, have my rater threatened, etc.

Seems like something worth falling on your sword over, in the long run, but it'll change into the Sword of Damocles pretty soon I bet.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 1:05 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 May 2016 13:05:21 -0400

the code of conduct

Response by SPC Mariely Sheridan made May 7 at 2016 3:57 PM

SPC Mariely Sheridan — Sat, 07 May 2016 15:57:53 -0400

I'd report it, I have been placed many times in the slot of an NCO as a specialist. I was scared at first, but I was always told. You have the authority to deal with said issues as an NCO. I wouldn't let this slide. I report it, if chain of command still didn't do anything. I continue to go higher till this was addressed. I've dealt with a lot of political crap in my unit. Also of it towards me, but I did not let that change my view on how one should conduct themselves. I got crap for it, but I did what was right when it came down to it. If they allowed behavior such as this to slide, what happens when your on the frontline? I don't see how I can trust said soldier if they only cared about covering for their own butts. Using their said rank to get away with crap. I've seen it a lot with the 6 years I did and the 8 years my husband did. Man did it get my blood boiling. Honestly, if I was still able to serve. LOL I honestly would have probably not been the most liked soldier, but who cares. It's about keeping to regulations and integrity at the end of the day.

Response by CPO Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols made May 7 at 2016 9:28 PM

CPO Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols — Sat, 07 May 2016 21:28:22 -0400

Did you actually 'see' the Major falsify the document and forward it on without 'anyone' else touching it? Then check your morale code and make sure it is spotless as well. Good luck!

Response by SFC Terry Murphy made May 8 at 2016 9:30 AM

SFC Terry Murphy — Sun, 08 May 2016 09:30:00 -0400

If you are the CSM, schedule a Battalion (Company, detachment etc) mandatory level APFT for all members of your unit. Officers and enlisted! To make sure everything is fair, have an unconcerned NCO grade the Major. Make sure you tell the NCO nothing of this issue, so he or she is grading with no preconceived idea of what you may expect to happen. If the officer passes, fine, if not, then the Officer chain of command can deal with their own. If anyone fails, have a set standard amount of time to retake the APFT for everyone, Private on up, and retest them in accordance with the standards.
After the APFT, have everyone do a weigh in and tape test as required.
This way, you can not only find out if your suspicions are correct, but also, you will can set the standard by leading the way with a high PT score of your own.

Response by COL John McClellan made May 8 at 2016 2:45 PM

COL John McClellan — Sun, 08 May 2016 14:45:05 -0400

Bring the evidence or whatever knowledge you have to the Battalion Cdr!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 9:38 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 May 2016 21:38:16 -0400

I would have to have first hand knowledge of the document falsification. I would report this up the CoC, with substantiating evidence.

Response by SSG Wesley Peck made May 9 at 2016 9:45 PM

SSG Wesley Peck — Mon, 09 May 2016 21:45:10 -0400

When a SFC MP has been 15'd for Rape, and gets a transfer to a leadership position elsewhere.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made May 9 at 2016 11:13 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Mon, 09 May 2016 23:13:49 -0400

CSMs just make 'it' happen. As a senior enlisted advisor, authority is limited. CSM's words/comments to the commander are not!

Response by CPT Russell Pitre made May 9 at 2016 11:23 PM

CPT Russell Pitre — Mon, 09 May 2016 23:23:08 -0400

I am not going to lie and try to say it doesn't happen. There are a few cases that would explain this. First, he may actual be in good shape and was lazy to take a test due to their demands at work. If he is passing all of his tests I am not going to worry about. In the guard you see this a bit or at least I did. But if this MAJ is slamming out more donuts than push ups than there is problem. Also, if they look fat. That is something we don't say. Looking fat is unprofessional in the military. We need to fix this. If he did this because he is a fat body and knew he couldn't pass than I would bust him like a Stolen Valor Case.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 1:35 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 May 2016 01:35:18 -0400

You could always call ahead to the gaining unit...CSM to CSM.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 1:21 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 May 2016 13:21:58 -0400

Honestly, that would be way down my list of worries.

Response by COL Jeff Williams made May 10 at 2016 2:32 PM

COL Jeff Williams — Tue, 10 May 2016 14:32:53 -0400

I think you also need intent

Response by TSgt Jennifer Disch made May 10 at 2016 5:38 PM

TSgt Jennifer Disch — Tue, 10 May 2016 17:38:43 -0400

If I was the ranking NCO I would ask to speak in private, respectfully, and ask, not accuse, the Major regarding the scores.

Response by MSG Pat Colby made May 10 at 2016 11:52 PM

MSG Pat Colby — Tue, 10 May 2016 23:52:07 -0400

I was an AGR Soldier. My fix for this situation was having the Commander direct all unit personnel to conduct the APFT with the unit. We had them scheduled quarterly and I was on the status like white on rice. On the rare occasions a Soldier needed an "emergency" APFT, it was only to be conducted by the Training NCO. (me) Everyone knew I didn't play games. I could tell you a LOT of stories... My worse offenders were the dual-status civilians. GS-9's during the week and SSG's on the drill weekends. The S-1 types were directed to have me verify 705's before packets went forward.

Good on you CSM for your actions!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 12:04 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 12:04:03 -0400

Call them out! Tactfully of course. We can't continue to let Soldiers break the rules and then that Soldier makes his way into a position of high military and political power. If they cut corners on their height and weight, what else are they hiding? The real question is, can you prove it and are you willing to? I wonder what the BC would think about what his subordinate officer is doing. I realize it's hard to report somebody on something that seems like it would be so minor because you don't want to feel like a bad person. It makes it especially difficult with the Army about to revamp its entire weight control program because it is believed to be a broken system...but it hasn't changed yet. That Major is clearly choosing to follow the Army Regulations that he chooses to. You just have to ask yourself..."is this Soldier the good leader that they are portraying themselves as. I wish you the best of luck Sergeant Major.

"You Lead From The Front!"

Response by SSG Rick Robbins made May 12 at 2016 12:18 AM

SSG Rick Robbins — Thu, 12 May 2016 00:18:49 -0400

Lose their shot records

Response by SGT Chris Stephens made May 18 at 2016 9:53 PM

SGT Chris Stephens — Wed, 18 May 2016 21:53:32 -0400

I'd post photos and plaster them over social media networks just like the way photos were put up for the CSM in Hawaii not too long ago. If people can keep their comments on a professional level, why not try to put pressure on leadership to do something about it? Or, just send it to a few veterans who are out and let them do all the dirty work, since they would have no repercussions. Although there is a social media policy, there is also a policy addressing these concerns. There has to be accountability no matter your rank and social media is a great way to keep people accountable.

Response by SFC Michael Bazzell made May 19 at 2016 9:04 AM

SFC Michael Bazzell — Thu, 19 May 2016 09:04:15 -0400

I seen this shit all the Time in 167th TSC. The STB commander refused to be weighed and taped. Lost all respect for Senior Officers in that unit well every Senior NCO did. This has ramifications all over. Be careful..... When you rage against the machine they can chew you and spit you out.

Response by PO1 Javid Benson made May 19 at 2016 9:46 AM

PO1 Javid Benson — Thu, 19 May 2016 09:46:12 -0400

In the Navy the Tape didn't lie if u failed then you failed

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 11:14 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 May 2016 11:14:59 -0400

Well most servicemen and women would report it unless they are intraverts - I personally, speak my mind and IDC what anyone else thinks so I would have to report it if I saw it, not if someone told me it happened thru the rumor mill. A lot of he did she did and he said she said everywhere unfortunately so I would not just go by a rumor.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 1:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 May 2016 13:43:52 -0400

All these statements are true. However how many of you would do the right thing. It is easy to talk the talk what about walking the the walk. The way I see this, any form Da, Sf, Dd are legal forms and submitting them and knowing that they are false, are punishable under the UCMJ (making a false statement), and doing nothing make you no better then the Maj for submitting the documents

Response by SFC James Liedtka made May 19 at 2016 2:24 PM

SFC James Liedtka — Thu, 19 May 2016 14:24:22 -0400

First I would never let someone pick who would grade their APFT or HT/WT. They will pick a battle to do it. I always had my MFT grade Soldiers going for promotion or schools. As a current SSGL at an NCOA I hate sending Soldiers home for failing to meet the standards because their units couldn't be honest with them. I would push it this issue up the chain. If the chain of command is just brushing it under the rug then it needs to go higher. I know my commander (06) told us straight to our face if we are not in compliance or working to get back in compliance we will be dismissed, officers and enlisted. No protected ranks.

Response by CW4 William Van Almsick made May 19 at 2016 4:22 PM

CW4 William Van Almsick — Thu, 19 May 2016 16:22:30 -0400

"Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. " Benjamin Franklin

"The right way is not always the popular and easy way. Standing for right when it is unpopular is a true test of moral character." Margaret Chase Smith

"Pissing people off doesn't mean you're doing the right things, but doing the right things will almost inevitably piss people off. " Colin Powell

Response by SFC Dean Wyman made May 19 at 2016 7:53 PM

SFC Dean Wyman — Thu, 19 May 2016 19:53:38 -0400

As a CSM in the United States Army, why are you asking? If you don't know what is the correct thing to do, then you are part of the problem as well. NCO the fuck up or shut the fuck up. "I am the backbone of the Army..." Grow one.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 8:26 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 May 2016 20:26:41 -0400

Wow, it's not unheard of. It's just a damn shame we have such horrible integrity issues in the Officer Corp.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 9:01 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 May 2016 21:01:48 -0400

We had one of these, we the CPTs and LTs in the BN turned her in using the ICE system because our chain of command would not get involved due to fears of being labeled racists/sexists. Meanwhile I had four chapters on my desk for the same issue. I felt as a CO I could not sit by and allow this to happen. She got burned down, but got out on a MEB anyway.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 9:15 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 May 2016 21:15:42 -0400

If I am reading this correctly, I am shocked and appalled on many different levels. The first of which being that a Brigade Command Sergeant Major does not know what to do when a Major is falsifying records.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 9:17 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 May 2016 21:17:44 -0400

CSM, I actually had a conversation about something similar to this subject today. First, I believe there are many senior NCOs and Officers who haven't taken an APFT or weigh and tape in years. You can look at a lot of these 1SGs and CSM/SGM, and a lot of Majors and above who clearly look overweight. I work in many HQs, and can say for a fact that I have noticed many in my day who have never showed their faces at an APFT or weigh and tape. That being said, it's happening all the time and nobody is monitoring/ tracking it. To answer your question- I think the same thing should happen to that officer as did a SGT (P) in one of my previous units who changed the run time for a brand new LT who had failed. She had a lapse of judgement trying to help a LT who was worried about looking like a dirt bag LT, and she lost everything because of it, and so did he. She and he both were given punitive actions and separated from the Army over it. Im glad I'm not in the position to make serious decisions about someone else's career, but being completely honest, how many Soldiers has that MAJ- when he/she was in command -tossed out into the streets, for failing an APFT or HT/WT? Standards are standards and nobody is above them. Soldiers, officers especially, should always act above reproach.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 10:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 May 2016 22:07:09 -0400

I glossed over some of the top comments so if I missed this, I apologize but where is the discussion of the person who signed the 705 and 5501? They are just as guilty as the Major committing the infraction.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 10:09 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 May 2016 22:09:19 -0400

lol we should take a poll on how many officers we know never passed the PT test, but somehow always get promoted...... That's why I tell joes, get your degree paid for, get a technical skill. Get out go to the VA and get you a civilian career.

Response by PFC O'neal Tillery made May 20 at 2016 12:47 AM

PFC O'neal Tillery — Fri, 20 May 2016 00:47:11 -0400

I had a battle who's nco submitted a false tape test so he could pass, he didn't fail because he was fat, he failed because he looked more bodybuilder than soldier and his nco didn't want to fail him for being in perfect shape, even the 1st Sgt was in on it, in certain cases it's feasible for this to happen. Apft, not allowable what so ever

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 3:53 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 03:53:42 -0400

Easy fix invite her commander to an APFT and BF weigh in given by reliable senior NCOs, then figure out who signed her 705s hold all them responsible

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 5:16 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 05:16:03 -0400

Given that the major is a field grade officer, not much. The last field grade I knew to do something illegal like sexual harassment and assault, only got moved from to another unit. Then 6 months later became the sharp oic. lol the system is broken when trying police field grades.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 6:46 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 06:46:44 -0400

Integrity violation cannot be tolerated. All must follow the standards and be treated or punished equally. It's unbecoming of an Officer to lie and or cheat. Time to terminate with bad conduct discharge.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 8:04 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 08:04:38 -0400

Fry that fat College girl. I worked so hard to stay on my game. I bet she would burn a soldier down in a blink of an eye over the fat boy shit. I dominated fitness but was a big guy and took a lot of crap over it. Bun baby burn.

Response by SSG Eric Kelley made May 20 at 2016 8:55 AM

SSG Eric Kelley — Fri, 20 May 2016 08:55:55 -0400

"What would you do if you knew..." Well, if you "knew," you as an NCO or Officer has a moral and legal obligation to advise your chain of command. That's a no brainier.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made May 20 at 2016 10:18 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Fri, 20 May 2016 10:18:59 -0400

REPORT IT IMMEDIATELY. However, make sure you have evidence to support your claim. If that is the case, this is a blatant violation of integrity and no member of the service, Enlisted or officer should be able to get away with it...period. If it gets investigated down the road and you knew about it and didn't report it, you are just as guilty for driving the getaway car.

Response by SSG Carter Jaynes made May 20 at 2016 11:28 AM

SSG Carter Jaynes — Fri, 20 May 2016 11:28:16 -0400

Investigate her rater. Because, if the person is stupid enough to do it, is bound to be stupid enough to get caught. Which probably means the unit knew about it. I've seen this a lot when I was on active duty. And a majority of them were in privileged positions.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 1:21 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 13:21:07 -0400

Where's the article about this?

Response by SPC Robert Patrick made May 20 at 2016 1:52 PM

SPC Robert Patrick — Fri, 20 May 2016 13:52:17 -0400

CSM Baldwin I would have personally brought it up the chain of command regardless of my rank. Would I have gotten very far no but if the command realizes that the Soldiers are recognizing a problem that is not being fixed with leadership then maybe though highly unlikely they will enforce the standard before Soldiers take it even further up.

But if nothing is being done at BN or BDE level I would say take it up to the next level above that. Because ultimately this can and will affect Soldiers faith and respect in Senior Leadership to uphold the Army Values which can lead to individuals not respect the commands given to them. They will see it as if MAJ so and so can get away with it then so can I and then everything while spiral down from there.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 3:01 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 15:01:00 -0400

This is clearly UNSAT. Nobody in this forum will say that this is what right looks like.
Complicating things is her rank and ability to imply difficulty on the (almost certainly) lower ranking members that administer the test and record-keeping. I have little doubt that the Major has done this before, and gotten away with it before.
The solution is oversight. When my unit conducts an APFT of any sort, I am out there too. Maybe (usually) taking the test, sometimes as the NCOIC or a grader, but present. When the data gets entered into DTMS, I review it. When the counseling for failures happen, I am involved. When the Flags happen, I make them happen with the S-1 shop. No one is putting in a fraudulent APFT on my watch, and if for some reason it happened, I would likely catch it and certainly know who the enabler would have to be.
This Major is getting away with this because the Sr NCOs allowed it to happen due to their inattention. If known and tolerated, the whole herd needs to be thrown out on their ear.
This officer will command and have to hold accountable Soldiers that fail to meet the standard. By compromising on this, she is no longer fit to wear those Oak Leaves.
Sayanara.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 3:48 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 15:48:35 -0400

CSM, you need to document the information and report it. That kind of corruption is toxic to any command.

Response by SSG John Mendyka made May 20 at 2016 6:08 PM

SSG John Mendyka — Fri, 20 May 2016 18:08:46 -0400

I cannot believe a field grade officer in our Army would ever do such a thing. After they are more highly educated and much more consummate professionals than we lowly peasant rif raf. Never in my life could I believe for a second that they would place themselves outside the grasp of the policy the set.

Response by SGT Jason McVey made May 20 at 2016 7:27 PM

SGT Jason McVey — Fri, 20 May 2016 19:27:21 -0400

Of report that in a heart beat not the first I've heard of this and I sure as hell would report it.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 7:45 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 19:45:35 -0400

Raise the red flag

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 8:14 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 20:14:34 -0400

She have to do two APFT a year so if she falsifying documents somebody is helping her that command has no integrity so the major must have something to offer them is the reason she's getting away with it perhaps he's a good administrator not justifying but some people Overlook certain things to keep the command running smooth it's a lot of bad leadership in the military especially on that side lot of buddy buddy situation and I guarantee you that's one of them but it will catch up to her soon as she have to go to a school

Response by COL Stanley Zezotarski made May 20 at 2016 9:06 PM

COL Stanley Zezotarski — Fri, 20 May 2016 21:06:42 -0400

Depends on command climate! Although reporting fraud is the right answer, it's not always the practical one. In the 1990s, California National Guard adjutant general, MAJ. Gen. Bob Thrasher, took his P.T. Test in front of state media, scored by an Army Fitness Trainer in response to criticism that part-time soldiers weren't as fit as full time troops. This changed the command climate in California that Thrasher was serious about two PT test and weigh in policy--one dinostic and one for record. It also set a trend of a fit Cal Guard until about 2005 when the command climate changed.

With a more toxic climate, senior ranking officers are often excused from PT(some being excused for five years), overweight generals are unchallenged--but obviously overweight, and double standards exist for NCOs and officers. One honest NCO filed an IG complaint against a general promotable resulting in consequences for the NCO, and an attempt by the adjutant general to grant "amnesty" for the offendinfpg colonel--that the Army rejected.

One must think of their family and career to risk such wrath. However, it appears there again be a story here given the fact that the Army blocked promotion for the New Jersey Adjutant general until he passed the fitness, height, and weight standards awhile back. (I think it took him two years). Perhaps it time to provide whistle blower protection to consciousness NCOs and junior officers to report fraud as well as a media investigation, or maybe congressional Research Report, challenging senior leader fitness, to pressure a command fitness climate. Under Thrasher, he sent the message that he would not ask his troops to do anything he didn't expect himself.

This discourages fraud, and encourages those wanting to live the Army Values.

Response by SPC LaVerne Hatch made May 20 at 2016 9:59 PM

SPC LaVerne Hatch — Fri, 20 May 2016 21:59:30 -0400

I would recommend minimum of a G.O. Article 15 for False Official Statement and Conduct Non-Becoming, along with processing the MAJ for an Officer Elimination Board.

Response by 1SG John Aaron made May 20 at 2016 10:07 PM

1SG John Aaron — Fri, 20 May 2016 22:07:24 -0400

When I was a 1SG for a BDE HHC, it wasn't a major but the CoC must get involved. Retest and re-weight are in order with the Senior Command involved.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 10:17 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 22:17:08 -0400

I'm in a similar situation. I found out and saw the DA Form 705s for three instructors in a school I am in. Not sure exactly who and what to do with this information, but reporting it is definitely my plan of action.

Response by SFC Craig Rudy made May 20 at 2016 10:38 PM

SFC Craig Rudy — Fri, 20 May 2016 22:38:54 -0400

Well small potatoes as I see it. Two reasons that support this. 1. BG Sinclair practically forces a subordinate to have sex with him. His punishmen, around $90k in annual retirement. Oh and #2 how about patreus wow was to bust screwing his autobiographer in a war zone to uhh actually win the damn war. He did the old ncaa football coach trick and retired to be the director of the CIA. The Army sells their "values" to parents of recruits and then those values when broken only apply to enlisted mostly the junior enlisted. SFC RETIRED (thank god)!

Response by MAJ Vance Fleming made May 20 at 2016 11:37 PM

MAJ Vance Fleming — Fri, 20 May 2016 23:37:38 -0400

I would tell the commander. A commander has the authority to command direct a weigh-in for someone who they suspect of being out of tolerance. It's been a few years since I say a record APFT form but they use to have either the signature of the OIC/NCOIC or person actually doing the counting. That is an integrity problem if someone else is involved. If it is solely the major then his/her integrity is in question and should ask the commander to retake the APFT/weight/BFthen deal with the circumstances. If their is proof all is fraudulent, the commander needs to relieve the major and begin the chapter process. Once someone loses their integrity it cannot be regained.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 12:00 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 00:00:51 -0400

If I was higher in the ranks I don't know how I would respond. You could let it slide however it makes you just as guilty. You could report it but your career could come to an end.

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made May 21 at 2016 12:30 AM

PO1 Jack Howell — Sat, 21 May 2016 00:30:07 -0400

If I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that this officer did that, I would report it to my chain of command immediately. If I stand by and do nothing, then I'm condoning it and would be just as guilty. Those who are in leadership positions are expected to hold themselves and their subordinates to a higher standard. Leaders that don't do this won't be respected or taken seriously, and will therefore become ineffective.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 12:53 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 00:53:45 -0400

It happens all tthe time i bet.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made May 21 at 2016 4:56 AM

1SG Harold Piet — Sat, 21 May 2016 04:56:22 -0400

CSM Jane Baldwin what did you do?

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 6:40 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 06:40:14 -0400

Report it up and make the Major retest if he or she was the one being tested. If the Major was administering the test, I'd consult with the Major, respectfully ask the Major to correct the error, and ensure the APFT Program Manager and CO are aware.

Response by 1SG John Aaron made May 21 at 2016 7:31 AM

1SG John Aaron — Sat, 21 May 2016 07:31:42 -0400

When working with Senior staff there is always "that guy\gal". When an APFT and weigh in were conducted they would never show or their NCOIC would produce the results claiming that the individual in question had already tested. What I did was to conduct an APFT every quarter for everyone. If you were due then it would be a record test of not then it was a diagnostic. Ally testing was done at the company level. We also had the support of the BDE Commander. If an individual's PT test or weigh in was expired at the end of a six month period ( they were given an ample opportunity to take the test) and they were not on a profile then their score for the PT test was zero and they were flagged as a failure. The same for a weigh in.

Response by SGM Mike Seitz made May 21 at 2016 8:50 AM

SGM Mike Seitz — Sat, 21 May 2016 08:50:24 -0400

You do the same thing that you would do if it was an E-4. The standards are supposed to apply to O's and E's the same. Tell your CDR what you suspect. Call the losing unit CSM and see what you can find out. Check to see if it was entered in DTMS because the training NCO at the losing unit should have entered it in the system.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 9:42 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 09:42:31 -0400

Happens all the time! Enlisted get slammed and thrown out of the Army, officers get a stern talking to!!

Response by SSG Eric Kelley made May 21 at 2016 10:07 AM

SSG Eric Kelley — Sat, 21 May 2016 10:07:10 -0400

I think that as an NCO, further addressing this issue can't be done by one. It needs to be done by the entire cadre including the 1st SGT and CSM. If you know that there is fraud on a APFT/Body comp form, you need to point it out; but keep in mind, this may be an indicator of something more systemic in the Unit. This is the real problem. The idea is, if you know there is a problem of integrity, the knee jerk reaction is to act. You need to keep your powder dry, collect evidence, and tighten the screws on every single action or document that gets approved by the commander. This is all done by NCOs.

If you have the data to prove there is fraud or more specifically a lack of integrity, it is imperative that you as an NCO have the support of the 1st SGT and CSM to fix this. If you have the entire cadre involved, there will be no wiggle room for rank to play the “good ole boys game” by shunning out an NCO who isn’t “playing ball.” I would also mention that if there is an integrity problem in the Leadership, it may very well include a select number of NCOs; another reason to keep your powder dry and know what you’re dealing with. If you get no support from your NCO cadre, then it’s time to bring it to the attention of IG. They have ways of fixing it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 10:58 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 10:58:20 -0400

Speak of Misconduct wow, what was on her mind I believe a lot of that goes on and the ranks it is just not monitor as well

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 11:02 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 11:02:52 -0400

Perhaps a simple suggestion to those who received the form that maybe it should be checked for accuracy.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 11:19 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 11:19:10 -0400

why in gods green earth would i allow another sm to skate the apft/wt standard when i'm held up to it also

Response by LTC Zachary Hubbard made May 21 at 2016 11:46 AM

LTC Zachary Hubbard — Sat, 21 May 2016 11:46:23 -0400

Report it to the major's commanding officer.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 12:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 12:10:34 -0400

Why is this even a discussion topic. You prove it then 268 that ass

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 1:03 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 13:03:12 -0400

Just to make sure I understand the image, here, that says 44.3%, right? If my math is correct, that's almost 50%. That means that almost half of this officer is fat.

In that case, CSM, you do nothing. A heart attack is surely around the corner.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 1:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 13:13:02 -0400

I find your lack of integrity disturbing, major.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 1:21 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 13:21:37 -0400

After reading many posts, there obviously is an integrity issue with DA Forms 5500/5501, which calls for a solution. I think we should get height/weight/tape done during our annual Physical Health Assessment. Less probability of getting any fraud, and it is a system already in place. If a Soldier tries to bribe a health care provider, an unnecessary shot might be forthcoming. I personally think we should use the DC current Body Composition devices, and it would be easy for the medical clinics to use them. Then your only official height/weight/tape can come from a medical appointment. It is currently a CDR’s program, and it is not working properly to fulfill its intent. I am truly sorry for all Soldiers that are meeting the standard and have to watch those who do NOT meet the standards get: promotions, awards, AGR Program Acceptance, evaluations stating they are in compliance, certain school, and continued service. It is a disservice to the Soldiers that are in compliance and are held back by those who fail to be in compliance. The individuals that did nothing to stop it or assisted in the integrity violations are just as culpable for allowing this cancer to grow.

Response by SGT Chris Hill made May 21 at 2016 1:59 PM

SGT Chris Hill — Sat, 21 May 2016 13:59:05 -0400

I'd use every last bit of fight in me to fry that MAJ. Definitely with your rank and position, show that MAJ that he is not above any other soldier. We all know what would happen with enlisted if caught.

Response by SFC Bobby Vann made May 21 at 2016 2:19 PM

SFC Bobby Vann — Sat, 21 May 2016 14:19:13 -0400

Many have been chartered for this fraud. This officer should be no different. I know several officers currently active that couldn't pass APFT ever but still are moving forward. You can call me on it. Actually I'm still shocked that they are still in. That just shows you that they are being taken care of. No integrity but they expect the NCOS to be that way.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 2:30 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 14:30:38 -0400

One should always be mindful of the regulations and gather the appropriate information that proves what someone else did was wrong & when reporting something such as this be wary that though what the Major did was wrong and possibly be investigated for submitting false official documentation, what causing this stir could possibly lead to in terms of detriment to their careers. Especially if that Major is in your direct CoC or in case you're an NCO/Officer if she's in your rating chain as a rater/senior rater/reviewer of your Evaluation Report, it doesn't take much for them write you a bad evaluation, but it takes a ton of evidence on your part to prove that the bad evaluation was a reciprocal action in regards to you being the whistle blower.

Response by MSG Bobby Ewing made May 21 at 2016 2:36 PM

MSG Bobby Ewing — Sat, 21 May 2016 14:36:35 -0400

CSM Jane Baldwin...we must report the situattion along with all supporting evidence. I've witnessed situations thorughout my years where someone did not report something and later on, by a separate investigation was brought in front of their superiors to explain. Some individuals received GOMARs, LORs, UCMJ, etc. No what the perceived outcome, we are obligated as US Soldiers to do the right thing. Period.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 2:51 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 14:51:03 -0400

Same thing I did to the Sergeant First Class, relieve the Major on the spot, Relief for Cause OER

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 3:25 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 15:25:04 -0400

What would I do? Ready the Court Martial proceedings and get the person gone immediately. I'd also make it known who was getting kicked out and why. Of course that would probably hurt someone's feelings. Field grade officers should get zero tolerance for integrity and honor violations. There is absolutely no place for them in the Army.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 3:47 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 15:47:12 -0400

We had a drill SGT unit in our building and would schedule APFT weekends parallel with ours and there was no favoritism.

Response by CPL Tanya Bailey made May 21 at 2016 4:15 PM

CPL Tanya Bailey — Sat, 21 May 2016 16:15:01 -0400

This happened often in my battalion. I would see overweight higher ranking NCO's and Officers have night APFT and have it signed off. I actually caught them because I needed at test and requested mine be done at same time. As I headed out I saw them get picked up and taken to end thinking I didn't see it. I complained but was given extra duty and forced to do other horrible things as reprisal. On deployment was not much I could do about it as lower enlisted. I thought it was horrendous for seniors to do this and laugh yes laugh as we did our APFT by day. They would laugh at me as I ran because I had injuries that made me run funny. I suffered quite a bit. Shameful. All I wanted to do is serve my country with honor but not everyone is honorable.

Response by SGT(P) Gloria Francis made May 21 at 2016 4:37 PM

SGT(P) Gloria Francis — Sat, 21 May 2016 16:37:59 -0400

This was the norm in my unit. We were doing a record APFT. I had to do the 2.5 walk because of injury. My commander waited until everyone left, jogged at the 0.25 mile mark, looked at me, and then turned around. Majority of E6 & up falsified APFT. If or when you report it you become the bad guy. The worst part was that they were chaptering E5 & under left & right for height and weight. You think that's bad when my company deployed an E7 penciled in great scores for many of the people he was sleeping with and made drivers badge for them to earn points. Then had the audacity to have a hard working Soldier's APFT records removed from her file to keep her from making the cut because she wasn't sleeping with him. I became the bad seed because I complained.

Response by CPL Stormi Miller made May 21 at 2016 5:03 PM

CPL Stormi Miller — Sat, 21 May 2016 17:03:24 -0400

I once had my 1sg tell me to put in medpros that I have her an immunization that I hadn't given her. When I told her no, she asked why. I told her my integrity wouldn't let me lie like that. Six months later I went off on an NCO while off duty. When he told her he wanted me to get an AR15 for disrespect, she told him I must have had a good reason because I had more integrity than anyone she'd ever met. She called me into her office to ask my side of the story. When I told her what was going on she launched an investigation that ended up with that NOV in Levenworth. Lack of integrity in anyone wearing a uniform pisses me off.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 21 at 2016 7:06 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Sat, 21 May 2016 19:06:49 -0400

If I could get copies of the documents, I would anonymously turn them over to the I.G., IF and only IF I had done the same to the Chain of Command to give them an opportunity to rectify the situation.

Response by COL Jeff Morris made May 21 at 2016 7:08 PM

COL Jeff Morris — Sat, 21 May 2016 19:08:41 -0400

Report him. I trusted my officers, but I always believed my NCOs when they reported this kind of thing. (And yes, it did happen.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 7:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 19:52:28 -0400

Report him and hope that he gets UCMJ action. Bad example of an Officer, leader and gentleman.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 8:06 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 20:06:30 -0400

Lets take the rank out of this, what would you do, you already have your answer. Now with my BLUF out of the way, if I ever caught an officer filing fraudulent paperwork I would ensure they would get what they have coming to them, one standard, if you can't maintain the basic job requirements to be in the service I say thank you for your time and show you the door.

Response by SGT Michael Lloyd made May 21 at 2016 8:07 PM

SGT Michael Lloyd — Sat, 21 May 2016 20:07:32 -0400

Integrity first. Report it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 8:39 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 20:39:32 -0400

CSM, go to the S3 training NCOIC ... That will be the individual that can confirm authenticity of the 705 or the 5500 series results. I for one can say that if I had doubts about anything that I had to input, I required the individual and the tester/taper to sign a statement to the effect that it is true and false reporting would result in either NJP or UCMJ

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made May 21 at 2016 8:42 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Sat, 21 May 2016 20:42:05 -0400

He has no honor.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 8:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 20:52:41 -0400

Take her out in front of the next formation and shoot her in the head as an example to everyone in formation. Obviously that isnt going to happen. Unfortunately, despite the fact a procedure is in place to handle situations such as this, the officers of the United States Army no longer possess the values nor the moral fiber to maintain standards of conduct within their own Corps. Its a shame.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 8:53 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 20:53:36 -0400

You've gotta look at the modern structure we deal with in the Army. It isn't just the MAJ....it's the LTC, the CSM, the Commander and the 1SG. If a PVT is out of tolerance a SSG or SFC can stop it in its tracks. Today, that same SSG or SFC who would've been honored for stepping up, is scared of the consequences. With QMP and QSP it's not who's right, it's who's got your back.

Response by SGT Steven Townsend made May 21 at 2016 9:29 PM

SGT Steven Townsend — Sat, 21 May 2016 21:29:39 -0400

Light that Ass Up!!! Lead from the Front and Set The Correct Example!!!

Response by Cheryl Carrier made May 21 at 2016 10:11 PM

Cheryl Carrier — Sat, 21 May 2016 22:11:14 -0400

Hubby who a retired said who signed it, cause has to be signed by a second person, usually a CSM or Commander. Cause if submitted, they would be just as wrong..

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 10:19 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 22:19:14 -0400

I think that is very common from E6 and above, the uniform shows it

Response by PFC Jose Reyna made May 21 at 2016 10:27 PM

PFC Jose Reyna — Sat, 21 May 2016 22:27:44 -0400

i would report it if i was in a position to do so and if i had seen it

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2016 1:15 AM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 May 2016 01:15:54 -0400

If you are 100% positive that it is all fraudulent, report it. The standard is for everyone not just some.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made May 22 at 2016 1:47 AM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Sun, 22 May 2016 01:47:17 -0400

I am a major and have never had the opportunity to change any of those documents, they have been well controlled by NCOs in my unit. So my question is, what the hell is the unit doing that allowed this? The major is wrong however I would be looking at the unit and finding out who is 'asleep at the wheel."

Response by SGT Christopher Premore made May 22 at 2016 7:54 AM

SGT Christopher Premore — Sun, 22 May 2016 07:54:24 -0400

I noticed a lot of pencil whipping while I was in. I always though it was funny though because they were the same people putting out policies such as you must have higher than a 270 to be considered for promotion, but they would get out of breath waking from their office to S-1 to yell at someone.

Response by MSG Donald Bedford made May 22 at 2016 8:11 AM

MSG Donald Bedford — Sun, 22 May 2016 08:11:09 -0400

I would report it

Response by SFC Casimir Vital made May 22 at 2016 9:53 AM

SFC Casimir Vital — Sun, 22 May 2016 09:53:32 -0400

I would evaluate the situation like this, did the person recently have a medical issue that would allow this? If the answer is no, take it up with the commander. If the answer is yes figure out a way to get the person in the best shape possible for their condition. You are the moral compass of your organization.

Response by LTC Robert Mikaloff made May 22 at 2016 10:54 AM

LTC Robert Mikaloff — Sun, 22 May 2016 10:54:51 -0400

It is clearly an integrity violation, fraudulent. This is an issue for Chain of Command and their only course of action is to flag, deny any slot and start a 15-6. This is simple...the Major has started the process of becoming a civilian.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2016 11:45 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 May 2016 11:45:43 -0400

Many will say very textbook answers like, "slam the officer", " will not lie ateal or cheat.." or "investigate using IG" But we know damn well they cover for each other and this is swept under the rug. The only time punitive action comes into play is when the enlisted learn of it. But don't let that be an NCO! "Throw the book at em" when it is one of us!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2016 12:04 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 May 2016 12:04:35 -0400

So many people saying "they would do the right thing" ha! Thats funny. Who would actually "DO" the right think when nobodys looking. Be careful with your responses because you never know whos watching!!

Response by SGT Leroy Brown made May 22 at 2016 1:50 PM

SGT Leroy Brown — Sun, 22 May 2016 13:50:27 -0400

Maybe this is for higher ranking people to answer, but I would do nothing if I knew. This type of stuff was swept under the rug all the time when I was in the Infantry. Once you get up in the higher ranks and everyone is on board or "on the same page" as we used to say, anyone can get away with anything. However, standards do stand and if you can't comply and stay in shape for a simple PT test well, maybe you shouldn't be in the Army.

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made May 22 at 2016 3:44 PM

SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres — Sun, 22 May 2016 15:44:45 -0400

I would report her, I don't care how many "evil eyes" went sent my way afterwards....

My CSM used to have a saying it was awesome when he worded it... but the gist of it went like this: if you steal you probably cheat to get whatever else you can. if you cheat you probably steal, if you would get caught you'd probably lie to get out of trouble... All three are connected and are all equally wrong...
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Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2016 5:46 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 May 2016 17:46:36 -0400

As a BLC instructor, I see this quite often where units spell their responsibility in following through with proper army standard and holding their soldiers to it. We recently had a soldier come through this last class that fit something similar to this. The soldier failed initial ht/wt, and the initial apft, and knew he was going to. His unit had sent him to school with a fraudulent 5500, knowing that we were putting the proverbial nail in the coffin for him. It sucks that people don't follow through and shirk their responsibilities. I know I've taken this in a different direction, but my point is this. If example b is your soldier, hold their feet to the fire.

Response by MSG Douglas Tolliver made May 22 at 2016 6:05 PM

MSG Douglas Tolliver — Sun, 22 May 2016 18:05:15 -0400

Having served in a unit as the weight control NCO before the name was changed to the Army body composition program, if I knew about it I would report it to the hhc commander. For 1 I would be the person maintaining the records and I would know whether something had been falsified or not. The PT program is a Commander's program so the hhc commander would have to take care of that particular problem. I was in a reserve unit here in San Antonio we actually had a major walk off the PT field after she failed the push up event. she went back to the Army Reserve Center took a shower got she went back to the Army Reserve Center took a shower got in uniform and went to her office. I don't think she got in trouble after that one however I found out that just last year she was forced to retire because she falsified information on the exact same situation as posed in the original question. As a result of this she also lost her GS civilian job. Couldn't happen to a better person as far as I'm concerned.

Response by SSG Keith Bodiford (Ret) made May 22 at 2016 6:33 PM

SSG Keith Bodiford (Ret) — Sun, 22 May 2016 18:33:51 -0400

You validate what you tolerate... The standard is the standard. However, you cant use AWC as a reference as it is a new program and not part of the 600-9 for H/T.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2016 9:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 May 2016 21:57:11 -0400

It would be nice to see everyone held to the same standard for once. I am not the fittest Soldier alive. I average 260-285 on the APFT and body fat floats between 16-19%, but we have all seen people (Officers and Senior NCO's) that visibly can't pass tape. When I was a PFC I constantly saw SFC and above never do PT or get fat as hell. It wasn't until I served in 1-2 inf. that I saw what right looked like as everyone was held to a standard. You had to score 250 or above on an APFT the morning of the board or you couldn't show your face. The Army is so busy giving good leaders the boot from minor mistakes in the past yet a SM who is 30% body fat is allowed to continue their service because they never made a mistake or most likely never got caught.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 2:00 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 02:00:22 -0400

I love Viktor Frankl's writings. He wrote, "Man's Search for Meaning" and it is a must read for everyone.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 8:07 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 08:07:40 -0400

Why is it significant that it was a major? It's wrong if a private does it, it's wrong if a 4 star General does it. Its wrong for any rank in between. This isn't an issue for social media or opinion. This situation is clearly covered by regulatory guidance and the Army values.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 9:50 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 09:50:18 -0400

As a 42 A They do this ALLL the time. Even the COLs and CSMs

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 10:24 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 10:24:17 -0400

I had a Full bird Commander ask me change his pt score. Well I guess because I have integrity that didn't happen. I not only do I know NCO but I live it

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 10:48 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 10:48:19 -0400

i worked in div. staff and no one did pt tests, tape or qualify without some nudge, nudge...help from each other. Its the benefit of being staff at division.
We do PT n our "own" since we are working late nights and long hours doing op oders, pay, and things you guys at lower line units wont understand or have any idea of how hard we work. not complaining but understand how system works. lower line unit guys have some false bravado of being "hard." and "Hu-ah" in reality we in staff work longer hours, harder and more stress than most guys in line units.

Response by CWO4 Frank Williams made May 23 at 2016 11:54 AM

CWO4 Frank Williams — Mon, 23 May 2016 11:54:50 -0400

If she lies about this what else does she lie about? Officers should be held to a higher standard especially in light of the fact they hold their subordinates to high standards.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 12:16 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 12:16:09 -0400

If I knew. Go to the MAJ's CDR and get an AR 15-6 started.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 12:31 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 12:31:26 -0400

This sounds like an unsolvable problem that an algebra teacher gives on the first day to make students think when it's an unsolvable problem.

Soldier A is 63", is 126 pounds and is 27% body fat, Soldier B is only one inch taller than soldier A but weighs 47 pounds more than soldier A and is two percent lower body fat than soldier A. Exclude integrity while doing your math and show all work.

PT is a personal responsibility! I've been in the reserves my entire military career and managed to pass every APFT regardless of weather conditions, grader etc. There's no excuse as far as reservists only drill twice a month. You know the standard, be prepared to meet it.

Someone referenced that you have 365 days to knock it out. While this might be true, I've never been at a unit that hasn't done one at least every six months just because the commander wants to take one, or know where everyone is at with it.

A SPC in these responses said "I know someone who brought a passing APFT card to me from four months prior and they were four months pregnant so they had gained a lot of weight" this person is obviously so brain dead that they didn't care too look at the body fat percentage being less than the first soldier who was only an inch shorter and the same age. Aside from that I don't give a damn what someone brings to me from four months prior because I have no idea that it is a real APFT card, unless it was sitting filed away somewhere with the unit, and if it is a pregnant soldier not taking a APFT because of that then they should have a profile if I'm not mistaken.

This CSM has every right and obligation to report this discrepancy. I have had to bust my ass to make sure that aside from my civilian job I'm ready to deploy when the Army says it's time to go, and part of that is maintaining fitness and weight standards. The Standard is the minimum required to be considered a go, that's the definition they give at WLC, if you can't meet that why do you deserve to go up for promotion or reap the benefits that someone else who is really working for isn't getting.

Right on CSM, you rock for pointing this out and I definitely think it should be brought to the Commander. The rules and regulations we live by apply to everyone, and if they don't and everyone is dressing, acting how they want and doing what they want we are then the militia of the United States of America. I wear the uniform proudly how I was taught and how the regulation says, I do what I'm told by superiors when I'm told to do so, and I do the right thing legally and morally no matter what.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 2:42 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 14:42:39 -0400

Is there also a statement about presenting a neat and soldierly appearance in uniform. My meaning is just because the number work, there is a photo and are you a duffle bag or are you a soldier. Does it pass the sniff test. Does the major look like they could pass the Apft /h+w standards.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 3:51 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 15:51:52 -0400

Army body composition does not apply to general officers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 7:24 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 19:24:40 -0400

CSM,
Standards are standards. As an NCO, my duty is to maintain and enforce standards. That includes ensuring that I meet the standard as well. If we remember our Army Values we will not forget that integrity means doing the right thing legally and morally, tempering justice with mercy. We are human and make mistakes, however, admitting to, and dealing with the consequences of our actions is part of that core value thinking. I am just frustrated that there appears to be two different measuring sticks when it comes to officers vs. Enlisted. I have witnessed Officers get away with things that they would have burned an NCO at the stake for and told, "that is not your lane".

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 7:20 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 07:20:17 -0400

This is sad, but welcome to the new Army. We have soldiers coming directly from training to the RSP that cannot pass an APFT at 17 to 21 years old. They get a pass. This is getting ridiculous. Where did the standard go? I would definitely report my concerns about the APFT and 5500 from the MAJ.

Response by SP5 Rod Cross made May 24 at 2016 1:31 PM

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Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2016 1:22 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 13:22:16 -0400

My question would be "How did it get past the HHC CDR?" We had a Major try that in my unit (BDE HHC) and the Company Commander had to counsel her and then pass those documents to the BDE DCO. Regardless, if you don't outrank that individual I would still approach the BN XO or CSM so they can have the BN CDR address it and possible action a LOR.

Response by SrA Steve Susumu Monas made Jun 4 at 2016 11:49 AM

SrA Steve Susumu Monas — Sat, 04 Jun 2016 11:49:51 -0400

Good Morning CSM Jane Baldwin. No i get most of it. What does Wellness Center Pod mean?
Also Is there a reference For Male Soldiers?

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jun 18 at 2016 7:35 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 07:35:36 -0400

RFI
Define "know" or give background and context into how you know something as fact or is this an assumption based on observable information and intangibles say perception of physical appearance

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Jun 18 at 2016 8:38 AM

Capt Tom Brown — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:38:00 -0400

CSM Private RallyPoint Member What would be the best way for a soldier of any rank to report something like this without fear of some sort of retaliation if his/her name came out in the process? Perhaps an anonymous note to the IC/CG ? Without knowing the back-story on just how much clout and influence the offender has one might be falling on their sword for nothing. PS any feedback on how this came out??

Response by SSG Robert White made Jun 18 at 2016 8:49 AM

SSG Robert White — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:49:40 -0400

I'd file an Art 138 complaint. I ensure the CM authority-authorities and others in the chain of command knew about this. I'd would provide copies of the documentation so the MAJ couldn't try and have it withdrawn w/o anyone noticing (if possible).

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Aug 23 at 2016 8:28 AM

CPT Tom Monahan — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 08:28:24 -0400

Report it. That simple.

Response by LTC Gerald Chernicoff made Aug 23 at 2016 10:24 AM

LTC Gerald Chernicoff — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 10:24:41 -0400

As HHC Commander, I caught the CG cheating on the PT test. (too strong a verb)- how about he took a rather huge shortcut on his 2 mile run. A year later, he got revenge, when me and my entire staff were relieved ..gee, we never really knew why :)

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2016 3:07 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 15:07:28 -0400

The topic you raise is about integrity. Not only the Major's integrity but yours. If we refer back to our Army Values, an item seen more on a handout than within our ranks, as a CSM you have Leadership, Duty, Integrity and Personal Courage components in play. Too often, it is easier to look the other way, instead of doing what is right. Too often, our system punishes the messenger. Too often we find people in our ranks we wouldn't trust with our safety. Yet, because people refused to do what is right, we end up with leaders who tend to self-serving, glory motivated, unskilled and detrimental to the good order and discipline of our military and possibly our country. Sometimes, these people can even become CSA. So, the choice is: You do what you know is right and inform your leadership that someone should independently verify the Major's packet for completeness and correctness or you just pass the buck and hope the next unit fixes the problem? Too often, no one fixes or documents the problem and these folks get promoted, because no one did what was right.

Response by COL John Hudson made Aug 23 at 2016 8:31 PM

COL John Hudson — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 20:31:37 -0400

From the IG Desk: Report this through your chain of command (CoC). If your CoC IS the problem, then contact your local Inspector General and let them address the issue. You may make an appointment, phone call or email. If uncomfortable with those options, you may act anonymously and the IG will still look into the issue. And lastly, from an old soldier (30 years) - keep in mind that the standard you walk past is the standard you accept - gender nonspecific (Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander). Physical fitness standards apply to ALL service members equally.

I failed to mention in my initial response above that a "COMMANDER" has the final say on any and all questions of physical fitness issues. He/She may decide to overturn recommendations for dismissal if other factors outweigh such choices. Consider just one example. I was tasked to travel to another unit as a 'disinterested third party' to score an SM who did not meet height/weight standards and was facing separation action. This SM was HUGE! He had actually been accepted by one of the professional football leagues as a linebacker. It was painfully obvious he far exceeded any military guideline for height/weight...but...he 'bent the scale' and the height bar wasn't long enough! Nonetheless, I completed the required measurements, weight, etc, and noted the forms accordingly. My recommendation to that local Commander was to overturn any and all separation actions (he had an excellent work record and was highly regarded by peers and subordinates alike). Not all examples are so clean cut, but my actions do show what is possible whenever an exception is seen. Review ALL factors in-depth and ensure you take appropriate action based on the situation at hand.

Response by COL Andrew Burns made Aug 23 at 2016 9:13 PM

COL Andrew Burns — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 21:13:39 -0400

Unfortunately, CSM I had a Reserve MSG who passed the SGM Academy with the exception of his APFT. At the end of the course he returned to our unit (me as the AGR S3) and asked me to "just pencil it in." I explained that I just do not do that for officers or Soldiers, and gave him 30 days to prepare. He still failed ...and was not promoted and retired as a MSG. WE MUST HAVE INTEGRITY! Can I could I have really counted on him to carry his weight in combat when we deployed???? I was not worried about my back but you cannot short-change your Soldiers! Call me an asshole!

Response by LTC Gerald Chernicoff made Aug 24 at 2016 11:00 AM

LTC Gerald Chernicoff — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:00:48 -0400

wow..quite a few comments. To expand the narrative, I did not see the CG take his shortcut. It was reported to me by a G3 NCO, holding PT cards. I sought out the Div. XO for guidance. The 5th Army IG investigated. The Div. Xo who was being considered for his Star, retired. As I said, my staff and I were all Relieved. That was over 25 years ago.

Response by CPT Richard Fematt made Aug 24 at 2016 12:54 PM

CPT Richard Fematt — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 12:54:54 -0400

This happens more than you especially at the reserve level in CSH who cover for each other! I have seen officer take APFT outside of their units especially if your from a down trace unit and get covered up by senior leadership and cronism! I've seen officers male/female who can't pass an APFT to save their ass or pass ht/wt yet get promoted time and again! I know this to be true as I was in a unit where the CDR and 1SG took their APFT at higher that were never witnessed yet fell out of every unit run or just didn't show up for PT.

Response by Col Rebecca Lorraine made Aug 27 at 2016 6:23 PM

Col Rebecca Lorraine — Sat, 27 Aug 2016 18:23:54 -0400

Lying or fudging numbers will bite you later. Approach and correct and if refused, follow your chain of command. No Brainer for EVERYONE!

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Apr 22 at 2017 1:38 PM

1SG Bill Farmerie — Sat, 22 Apr 2017 13:38:07 -0400

I graded a major one time on a PT test. He was trying to do head bobs for push ups. I kept saying 1 lower, 1 lower, 1 lower..... He finally got up and left the PT test saying I don't have time for this

Response by SSG Darrell Peters made Apr 22 at 2017 11:26 PM

SSG Darrell Peters — Sat, 22 Apr 2017 23:26:45 -0400

This might be off subject. But I have seen people do some crazy stuff to pass PT and HT WT.
One and I don't blame the guy had a PT test scheduled two days prior to their Birthday that would have placed them in a different bracket. so he wanted to buy a couple of days and take a PT test after his birthday. So he decided he wanted to schedule a Vasectomy prior to the PT test. I know he made all the pre-surgical counseling's but I don't know if he actually went threw it. It's not like he is the only guy scheduled for that day. They could be at least 10 guys scheduled for that day and for what ever reason could be rescheduled at the Clinic or Doctor's Discretion.
The more common things I saw were over use of laxatives, and diaphoretic's (water Pill) to loose body water. The one thing that blew my mind were Soldiers usually E-7 - E-9. That would schedule Liposuction at Civilian Doctors offices Pay for it out of pocket and take Leave to have it done. They met Body Fat but I kept saying to myself at what cost?

Response by LTC Zachary Hubbard made Apr 27 at 2017 2:03 PM

LTC Zachary Hubbard — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 14:03:30 -0400

The major failed his/her integrity check and deserves to get toasted. Sadly, he/she may have had the best of intentions. I recall several times that I had to tell great NCOs they were barred from promotion or reenlistment due to their height/weight and, later in my career, body mass. All were great performers--the uber-muscular Sergeant Rock type who could hump a 90 lbs. ruck all day or carry two 155mm artillery projos simultaneously by hooking one through the nose plug with each hand. They were revered by their soldiers. Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime would probably have been barred from promotion because he failed to meet the height/weight standard.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Aug 16 at 2017 1:13 AM

CSM Charles Hayden — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 01:13:32 -0400

CSM ? CSM Private RallyPoint Member Again, I am totally confused. Do CSMs no longer have the commander's confidence and access to the commander? Why ask RP? Have a word with your commander.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2017 6:58 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 06:58:13 -0400

Happened this promotion cycle. E7 submitted a fraudulent 5500 with his packet. I reported the issue because he was the same NCO that got a E4 flagged for H&W right after having surgery. Nothing will happen to that individual because of rank and who he is friends with.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Aug 16 at 2017 10:08 AM

SSG Richard Reilly — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:08:56 -0400

Turn him in...actually did once, so yeah turn him in.

Response by SFC Jorge Diaz Caro made Mar 26 at 2018 8:40 PM

SFC Jorge Diaz Caro — Mon, 26 Mar 2018 20:40:47 -0400

Best thing to do is report it. As a Training NCO I see this crap all the time from different unit best thing to do is report it I've seen it from CSM's, Officers and Junior Enlisted, they always accuse me of being harsh and tell me this isn't basic training anymore I don't have to be a drill sergeant. Well you can add to the regulation but you cant take away the Reg is clear as Daylight. I will go into a dtms and find Soldiers that would miraculously have a passing APFT on a date that no one administered one, and there are others that haven't passed an APFT for 3 or 4 years its sick leadership.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2018 11:32 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Mar 2018 11:32:52 -0400

CSM, i am going from the information provided. In both cases, both Soldiers are within standards. Sybject A is allowed to weigh 146, but is 126. Tape is 26%, but authorized 36%. The pod is not relevant, as the tape test is the Army standard. Subject B is allowed 151, but is over 22lbs. However, still within standard based off of the tape test, which indicates she is 11% under. Again, the results of the pod are not relevant.
So my question is this? Is an implication that because the two subjects are similar in height and age, that the information is fabricated? If so, i still could not say that the information is fraudulent. Different people with different body types with different measurements cannot be compared. If i have missed the point completely, please elaborate more so that i will have a more clear understanding. Thank you.

Response by PO3 Leroy Leftwich made Oct 14 at 2018 4:26 PM

PO3 Leroy Leftwich — Sun, 14 Oct 2018 16:26:15 -0400

I discharged in 81. I also went to Iraq in 07-08 as a civilian truck driver. I’m not going to be specific. I was amazed at the difference in the honor code, between when I served and today. It would be my responsibility to report a lie. No matter how high the lie originated, period.

Response by SGT Bj Anderson made Jan 12 at 2019 2:15 PM

SGT Bj Anderson — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 14:15:50 -0500

All we have in a career in the military is the basic core values and how we either respresented and enforced them or stood to the side and allowed things like this pass us by. You are a CSM. You are the Man or Woman I looked at, all young enlisted and junior officers looked at and trusted to be the best of us and represent us. Do the right thing because you above all else knows what that is.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2019 2:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 14:52:46 -0500

All must be held to standard. You destroy the morale of the lower ranks when you all senior leadership to not abide by standard.

Response by SFC William Huse made Jan 12 at 2019 3:49 PM

SFC William Huse — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 15:49:24 -0500

If they can't pass apft, flag them first. Then go back to the loss unit and find out from the NCOs what is going on. If the commander has swept it under the rug, he, or she, is just as guilty as the one that falsified the 705

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2019 9:41 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 21:41:19 -0500

I see it to they wanna keep people cause their short handed. So APFT gets pencil whipped. Cause they dont wanna look bad and no one questions it

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2019 4:25 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Jan 2019 16:25:21 -0500

Officers and snco's do this all the time

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2019 8:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:12:15 -0500

I would get with the hhc 1sg and have them schedule a diagnostic apft with a hw. The tape won’t lie and when they bust 600-9 flag time a standard is a standard. Height and weight is always a standard pt test can be manipulated by diagnostic or record for now. That little half inch clothe tape is a game changer

Response by CPT Jeff Robinette made Jan 14 at 2019 3:08 PM

CPT Jeff Robinette — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 15:08:31 -0500

Just my opinion I on alone but as long as the soldier can do their Job; pass a PT test, and present a professional appearance I don't care much about height and weight standards. Those standards are artificial. And do not reflect a soldiers abilities.

Response by CPT William Jones made Jan 14 at 2019 3:16 PM

CPT William Jones — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 15:16:35 -0500

An officer signs a document and that verifies that to the officers knowledge all facts are true as if they were making a sworn statement. If one filed a document over their signature they knew was incorrect that is proof of making a false statement and they are subject to adverse action up to and including court martial an officers signature on any document certifies it is correct.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2019 5:45 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 17:45:43 -0500

The wellness pod is a tool, but can’t be used for the ABCP. It isn’t covered in the regulation and is actually considered medical info, so it falls under HIPPA. It isn’t releasable information; you can’t compel a Soldier to provide the data. We only have the Army tape test as an official system of measurement. It isn’t the best or most accurate test, but it is the most cost effective and expedient method we have.

Response by LCpl Jeff Moore made Jan 14 at 2019 6:30 PM

LCpl Jeff Moore — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 18:30:36 -0500

If she submitted false paperwork, call CID.

Response by SGT Charles Kovach made Jan 14 at 2019 7:40 PM

SGT Charles Kovach — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 19:40:42 -0500

Had an NCO in mast unit get busted down from SSG to SGT for forging his pt card. She needs to be disciplined accordingly

Response by SFC Jimmy Williams made Jan 14 at 2019 9:00 PM

SFC Jimmy Williams — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 21:00:47 -0500

I have been retired more than 20 years and this was an issue then. When the army established the Height and weight tables as a discriminator, they opened Pandora's box. Instead of letting performance and appearance be the determining factor, they created an animal that hey have never been able to tame. I knew a major who was a great leader, physically fit, and was one of the best officers I ever saw. But when the comment about being within height and weight standards according to girth measurement was put on his OER, his career was capped. He was retired at 20 years while other lesser officers who were "skinny" went on to be promoted beyond their ability. The military has always had leaders who had their favorites that they held to lesser standards that they required of others. It has never been fair, but it is a fact. I worked for a captain who got a DWI. The Colonel we worked for was called at 0200hrs to pick him up at the Heidelberg MPStation (we were in KTown). I ran into him a few years later and he was a major. I don't need to tell you most soldiers would not be able to do that.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2019 9:56 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 21:56:08 -0500

This is the same type of person who would be ok doing this for themselves but would fry anyone else that got caught doing it.

Response by PO2 Rich Pratt made Jan 15 at 2019 9:22 AM

PO2 Rich Pratt — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 09:22:05 -0500

We had an XO, LCDR, on my sub that pressure rested his uniforms. When we did our PRT the chief running it would call out your time as you finished the run, except the XO would call out his time when he finished. Our goal was to cross the finish line right before the XO, one time we actually smoke a cigarette during the run.

It was common knowledge on the boat, but I don’t think anything was ever official done about it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2019 10:57 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 10:57:50 -0500

Just observing something. Over 40 means as a female you have 36% body fat. The bummer being if you are shorter than 63, you end up taping over. If she has gotten away with it, then you wonder who she's sleeping with. If it's a PCS, I think it even says in AR 600-9 you do have to weigh in at both the leaving unit and the receiving unit. So one way or the other she gets caught. With the 280,000 they are kicking out for failing h/w and pt, you can't escape forever.

Response by SFC Raymond Burge made Jan 15 at 2019 11:30 AM

SFC Raymond Burge — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 11:30:04 -0500

CSM Jane Baldwin thank you for this real talking point. Fist question, who did the MAJ submit the form to. This is important because someone has to validate it as an official document. The official can either accept it or not. Next what is the chain of custody on the document. If the chain of custody is compromised or unknown. Request another H/W screening. This should not be an issue since a Soldier does not need to prep for this and the Soldier should be in compliance at all times. Set up the new screening. First have the regulation on hand and two witness , follow it to the letter, in fact have another leader read the instructions aloud and procide step by step. Next record the results verbally call out the results and record them directly to the 5500. Do not dicuss the results at the time of taping. Dismiss the solder and calculate the results. If the Soldier fails the screening, Notify the Soldiers chain of command and inform the of the need for notification counseling to the Soldier for failing to meet the standard. The APFT may prove more challenging. You would need to contact the OIC of the APFT and the Graders their integrity is on the line also. CSM Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SSG P Mendiola made Jan 15 at 2019 1:38 PM

SSG P Mendiola — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 13:38:33 -0500

It's a shame a CSM had to ask this question.

Response by Col Dennis Arinello made Jan 15 at 2019 4:25 PM

Col Dennis Arinello — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 16:25:12 -0500

Charge her with Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer and run her out of the Army.

Response by SGM Robin Johnson made Jan 15 at 2019 5:02 PM

SGM Robin Johnson — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 17:02:59 -0500

I am having a little difficulty with the relevance of the comparison between 'Soldier A' and 'Soldier B'. I hope this is not your 'evidence' that the MAJ submitted fraudulent APFT and body composition forms. The reason body composition is measured is that height and weight alone do not give a complete picture. Different proportions of muscle, bone, and fat in individuals of the same size can result in very different weight.

If you have other compelling evidence that the documents are falsified, present that evidence to the commander with a recommendation for punitive action. If it is just a suspicion with some foundation (i.e. radical improvement over all past scores, which COULD be attributed to hard work at self improvement but seems unlikely, change in height over past recorded height) then first contact the losing unit and ask for verification. If they state the data is not what they have on record (or that they also believe it was falsified, in which case they need to investigate anyone who assisted), you have evidence. If they stand by the data and you still have doubts, you may not be able to prove fraud unless the current bodyfat during inprocessing, but you can take appropriate action based on her current fitness and bodyfat status.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2019 5:07 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 17:07:55 -0500

This is the type of thing one gets a GOMOR and might be separated for. She's field grade. Inexcusable.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2019 4:13 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Jan 2019 04:13:30 -0500

Had it happen...Typed it up, submitted it. Then processed his non retain paperwork.
Had a 1SG and SGM pull the same crap. I busted them dead to right. 1SG made CSM and SGM moved to Division as a CSM I'm sure. That what the Military "Leadership" is all about anymore. I retired and put that crap behind me.

Response by SFC Marshal Gleason made Feb 7 at 2019 5:56 PM

SFC Marshal Gleason — Thu, 07 Feb 2019 17:56:26 -0500

Look, mofos are gonna do stuff until they get caught, then the gloves come off. I remember my first DA photo, the people said a fat NCO took his photo laying down to hide his fat ass gut. They caught him because they saw the soles of his shoes.
I tell my sons and my soldiers, do what you think you can afford. This fat ass MAJ thought she could afford to lie and deceive the Army and got caught, she should be turned in to pay the piper. She knew payment might be due and she thought she could pay it. Knock that lying biotch down a rank and kick that fat ass out.

Response by SPC Rob Lewis made Dec 19 at 2019 1:20 PM

SPC Rob Lewis — Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:20:59 -0500

Way back when, there was a E-5 (sgt.) who never completed a PT test. Always passed....It became a joke for the rest of us to sit back and watch him to see what he actually did. Never understood why he got away with it.