When did the Army lose focus on personal responsibility?
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/when-did-the-army-lose-focus-on-personal-responsibility
<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>A comment in another thread sparked this discussion question. <div><br></div><div>Since when did we lose focus on accountability?</div><div><br></div><div>Some things are a leader responsibility. But the Army has become much like the rest of America: it's always someone else's fault. </div><div><br></div><div>Example: a Soldier fails his APFT or HTWT. They start blaming the SL. Even though the SL has told the Soldier you can't eat mcdonalds every day if the Soldier does it's still somehow the SLs fault. </div><div><br></div><div>A Soldier misses his medical appointment (this is huge where I'm at) and the PSGs gets a letter of concern. </div><div><br></div><div>A Soldier goes out and gets a DUI and they wanna know if your safety brief was good enough. </div><div><br></div><div>Sadly it extends to more important things like suicide. </div><div><br></div><div>What I mean by that is the Army has become a giant series of check the blocks to CYA. The moment someone is remotely upset we force them to go to the chaplain, MFLC, and a million other programs the Army has paid for rather than being 100% concerned about the problem. For example I'm ASIST T4T instructor. But if someone approached me with suicidal thoughts instead of fully talking to them as trained we take them to the million agencies to check the widgets first. </div><div><br></div><div>Don't take this as someone trying to shirk responsibility. </div><div><br></div><div>I'm just annoyed that the Soldier rarely gets fully blamed. </div><div><br></div><div>If a Soldier fails HTWT this is an individual responsibility. It shouldn't be the leaders fault that the Soldier eats like crap when they go home (assuming said leader has counseled them on proper eating and sent them to the nutritionist). Or if they fail the APFT it's suddenly the PSG fault even though the other 50 people passed. </div><div><br></div><div>The final straw was my objection to my PSGs getting LOC for their Soldier missing a medical appointment. I was told that it's the PSGs responsibility to ensure PFC Smith gets to medical. No. The Soldier made the appointment it's their job to get there. We are all adults. If we continue to treat Soldiers like children they will continue to act like children. The only exception would be if PSG Jones keeps PFC Smith at work and prevents him or her from going. </div><div><br></div><div>Thoughts?</div>Fri, 27 Dec 2013 20:22:31 -0500When did the Army lose focus on personal responsibility?
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/when-did-the-army-lose-focus-on-personal-responsibility
<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>A comment in another thread sparked this discussion question. <div><br></div><div>Since when did we lose focus on accountability?</div><div><br></div><div>Some things are a leader responsibility. But the Army has become much like the rest of America: it's always someone else's fault. </div><div><br></div><div>Example: a Soldier fails his APFT or HTWT. They start blaming the SL. Even though the SL has told the Soldier you can't eat mcdonalds every day if the Soldier does it's still somehow the SLs fault. </div><div><br></div><div>A Soldier misses his medical appointment (this is huge where I'm at) and the PSGs gets a letter of concern. </div><div><br></div><div>A Soldier goes out and gets a DUI and they wanna know if your safety brief was good enough. </div><div><br></div><div>Sadly it extends to more important things like suicide. </div><div><br></div><div>What I mean by that is the Army has become a giant series of check the blocks to CYA. The moment someone is remotely upset we force them to go to the chaplain, MFLC, and a million other programs the Army has paid for rather than being 100% concerned about the problem. For example I'm ASIST T4T instructor. But if someone approached me with suicidal thoughts instead of fully talking to them as trained we take them to the million agencies to check the widgets first. </div><div><br></div><div>Don't take this as someone trying to shirk responsibility. </div><div><br></div><div>I'm just annoyed that the Soldier rarely gets fully blamed. </div><div><br></div><div>If a Soldier fails HTWT this is an individual responsibility. It shouldn't be the leaders fault that the Soldier eats like crap when they go home (assuming said leader has counseled them on proper eating and sent them to the nutritionist). Or if they fail the APFT it's suddenly the PSG fault even though the other 50 people passed. </div><div><br></div><div>The final straw was my objection to my PSGs getting LOC for their Soldier missing a medical appointment. I was told that it's the PSGs responsibility to ensure PFC Smith gets to medical. No. The Soldier made the appointment it's their job to get there. We are all adults. If we continue to treat Soldiers like children they will continue to act like children. The only exception would be if PSG Jones keeps PFC Smith at work and prevents him or her from going. </div><div><br></div><div>Thoughts?</div>CW2 Private RallyPoint MemberFri, 27 Dec 2013 20:22:31 -05002013-12-27T20:22:31-05:00Response by SFC James Baber made Dec 27 at 2013 8:51 PM
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/when-did-the-army-lose-focus-on-personal-responsibility?n=28157&urlhash=28157
<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>This is an argument I had throughout my career as a junior enlisted and as an NCO, everyone who enlists is an adult 18+, some 17 year olds, but usually turn 18 by the time they get to 1st unit or close to it, if they are supposed to be adults, then treat them like it and hold them responsible for adult decisions and actions. Point blank.SFC James BaberFri, 27 Dec 2013 20:51:12 -05002013-12-27T20:51:12-05:00Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2013 9:11 PM
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<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Another example. I had a SFC PSG before we deployed. I was a relatively new 1SG. This SFC couldn't even manage simple tasks or effectively manage his time. At all. I showed him how I stayed organized and I counseled him. After two months he just plain sucked. <div><br></div><div>It took every fiber of my being to get the BN to let me leave him behind (we had to cut some people anyhow). </div><div><br></div><div>I endured comments from other 1SG's about how this NCOs failures were probably a result of my lack of leadership. Wrong. You can only lead someone so far. Some people are never meant to lead a 30-40 person element. They just aren't organized. </div><div><br></div><div>If you show them organization melds and even recommend books on managing time and tasks and they still can't meet a single deadline that's not the leaders fault. </div><div><br></div><div>He has since cycled through about three or four positions and has been terrible at every one. </div><div><br></div><div>Some Soldiers just suck and are a product of over a decade at war and the war on numbers and I don't think any leader can necessarily fix stupid. </div>CW2 Private RallyPoint MemberFri, 27 Dec 2013 21:11:49 -05002013-12-27T21:11:49-05:00Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Dec 27 at 2013 10:20 PM
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/when-did-the-army-lose-focus-on-personal-responsibility?n=28213&urlhash=28213
<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>This seems to be a societal issue, making it an Army problem (just like obesity).<br><br>The problem is actually two-fold: &nbsp;The offending Soldier's are not held accountable for personal responsibility and senior NCOs/officers are covering their asses (for some reason) and holding the wrong individual (SGT/SSG normally) responsible.<br><br>Society states that when a child turns 18 years old, they're an 'adult'...they need to act like it, take responsibility for their actions (right or wrong) and grow from them.SGM Matthew QuickFri, 27 Dec 2013 22:20:35 -05002013-12-27T22:20:35-05:00Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2013 6:29 PM
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<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>In my 20 plus years in uniform I have never arrested someone for DUI who said " if only I had attended that safety briefing". They are for CYA and everyone knows it. If you show up late for work it is no ones fault but your own. If you fail an APFT that's pathetic as it is, but failing tape is a individual responsibility. I don't care if you are overweight, the Army's weight standards don't account for weight lifters, instead we are all supposed to look like anorexics.&nbsp;SFC Private RallyPoint MemberSun, 29 Dec 2013 18:29:47 -05002013-12-29T18:29:47-05:00Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2013 6:37 PM
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<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I personally had a CSM that would hold the NCO accountable for a Soldier's mistake. It bothered me to no end. I don't think he understood that we had families to take care of too. We spent the majority of our weekends in the barracks trying to make sure joe didn't make mistakes. It was pathetic and poor management.SFC Private RallyPoint MemberSun, 29 Dec 2013 18:37:55 -05002013-12-29T18:37:55-05:00Response by SGT Mike C. made Dec 30 at 2013 11:44 AM
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<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Are you then as TL's, SL's, etc holding your men personally responsible as you are being held? (I say men because that's all I have experience with)<div>Listen, in my 20+ years I was always held accountable for the actions of my men at every level. I then, in turn, made them accountable to me. That's how it's supposed to work. If my joe could not pass then do something about it. He is your responsibility. You are your leader's responsibility, and so on. Start a remedial PT group run by a high speed E4, etc., etc. I could list 20 ways to solve that problem and if we're really sitting here bitching about that ONE guy that just doesn't respond to anything then make sure your paperwork is in order and let's get that boy some extra duty, etc. etc. </div><div>If your guys see you taking care of the ones that do the right thing and doing something about the ones that don't, they'll take care of you. </div><div>You can't tell me I'm wrong- I'm not speculating here. This is how I've watched it work for 2 decades in a few different leg units. Take care of them and they'll take care of you - and I don't mean give them shit and baby them, I mean take care of them. Learn about them, get to know them, spend time with them off duty and genuinely care about them.</div><div>In other words, quit bitching and make it work. I'm reading these comments and it sounds like a bunch of NCOs that just want to be managers. They just want soldiers that are going to show up, punch a clock, do work, punch out and then go home. Good luck with that.</div>SGT Mike C.Mon, 30 Dec 2013 11:44:06 -05002013-12-30T11:44:06-05:00Response by SSG Jeffery Haynes made Dec 30 at 2013 12:05 PM
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/when-did-the-army-lose-focus-on-personal-responsibility?n=29393&urlhash=29393
<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>As leaders, we're always held accountable for what our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, or Marines do or don't do. As stated earlier, are we then holding them accountable? We have to start putting pen to paper and creating that paper trail when Joe Snuffy gets a DUI, or is late for work. Garrison discipline is something we've been lacking since the optempo picked up after 9/11. I've noticed a lot of NCO/Leaders wanting to avoid conflict by ignoring the situation hoping it will fix itself, or they complain about some Soldier to their peers but they don't confront the individual themselves fearing that person won't like them anymore. I'm sure we've all seen this before, "We need Leadership not Likership". We as leaders need to stop worrying about being liked by our Soldiers and start showing them leadership and the rest will take care of itself. <br>SSG Jeffery HaynesMon, 30 Dec 2013 12:05:04 -05002013-12-30T12:05:04-05:00Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Dec 30 at 2013 12:46 PM
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/when-did-the-army-lose-focus-on-personal-responsibility?n=29411&urlhash=29411
<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>We're seeing a lot of questions and debates along this line. Here is the thing. This is nothing new. You're just seeing the Army return to garrison. This is what most of us grew up with. For me I was also a SSG when all this was going on my first time. Don't take it to heart. Do your job as an NCO and when someone asks you why something happened or didn't happen as if it were your fault, make sure you have done everything you should. This is not something we'll ever get right. We just go back an forth on the pendulum. LTC Joseph GrossMon, 30 Dec 2013 12:46:48 -05002013-12-30T12:46:48-05:00Response by CSM James Winslow made Dec 30 at 2013 1:20 PM
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/when-did-the-army-lose-focus-on-personal-responsibility?n=29439&urlhash=29439
<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>We as leaders have always been responsible for our Soldier's duty performance, and not always their personal conduct. It was a gradual erosion of our leaders' ability to take responsibility in their own actions (personnaly and professionally) that caused the American public (and our leaders) to lose faith in our ability to lead that sparked this.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Case in point- A Soldier was seen sober and awake at 1230 am one night by three different leaders. When asked what his plans were, he stated "going home and to bed". at 0430 the SAME MORNING, (three hours later) he was pulled over by the State police 50 miles away and blew a .104. Whose fault was it? Not the PLT leadership, but everyone was there, from the Team leader through PLT Leader. 14 Soldiers to answer for one Soldiers' misbehavior.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>The Army has always been a reactionary organization- we try to institute controls and regulations to prevent bad things from happening to our Soldiers. What is happening here is an escalation of effects, trying to control a situation that cannot be effectively controlled- Human free will. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Our Soldiers are not automations that can be turned off and on at will, and this very unpredictability is what makes us sucessful in combat and gives our leadership headaches. What is the solution? Since we live under a microscope because of our Senior leaders' inability to accept (and explain) that s**t happens, and we are all adults, it will only get worse.</p>CSM James WinslowMon, 30 Dec 2013 13:20:50 -05002013-12-30T13:20:50-05:00Response by SCPO Robert Meeler made Dec 30 at 2013 1:27 PM
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<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>This is what happened after DOD bought into the TQL program. (Total Quality Leadership Program) What is wrong with your leadership that causes Johnny to not want to shine his shoes!!! <br>SCPO Robert MeelerMon, 30 Dec 2013 13:27:33 -05002013-12-30T13:27:33-05:00Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2013 7:52 PM
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<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Thats the problem with the Army. Everyone is so stuck on the soldiers-are-a-direct-reflection-of-you bit that leaders fail to realize that soldiers are human too and will ultimatley do what they want to. We can preach til we're blue in the face but the final decision rests on that soldier who decides to go drink and drive after getting a safety briefing, to blow off PT and fail the APFT and tape. We as leaders can only guide and lead soldiers according to applicable regulations. Take children for example: you can tell them dont do this and dont do that but as soon as you turn your back what happens?SSG Private RallyPoint MemberMon, 30 Dec 2013 19:52:03 -05002013-12-30T19:52:03-05:00Response by CSM Colin Patterson made Dec 30 at 2013 9:34 PM
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/when-did-the-army-lose-focus-on-personal-responsibility?n=29674&urlhash=29674
<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The military went away from personal accountability and responsibility, when someone decided to micromanage leaders and blame them for the transgressions of their subordinates. When I came in the Army in the early 80's once you Graduated from IET you were an Individual and there was no more mass punishment, you screwed up you were held accountable and were punished you did it too many times you were chaptered. Today with the new crop of leaders soldiers are babied and leaders are held accountable when the babies screw up. I remember as a 1SG my CSM and BN commander were trying to hold me accountable for a soldier screw up and I flipped the scrip on them and told them seeing that you are trying to hold me accountable for an off duty off post incident. How about holding your self accountable also because you are in the chain of command and the soldier belongs to you also. That was the end of the conversation.CSM Colin PattersonMon, 30 Dec 2013 21:34:38 -05002013-12-30T21:34:38-05:00Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 4:40 PM
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/when-did-the-army-lose-focus-on-personal-responsibility?n=81201&urlhash=81201
<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I have to say that the one thing that bothers me the most is the blanket, one size fits all solution for individual problems. I can understand the mentality of wanting to put emphasis on leaders facilitating Soldiers, but I think it has gotten out of hand. Last time I checked, it was up to me to meet individual standards and to make my appointments. I am reminded of this every time I have an appointment scheduled and I get an email from my chain of command reminding me of it a few days in advance. It shouldn't fall on my 1SG's shoulders if I fail to report to an appointment, unless the 1SG refused to allow me to attend that appointment. Maybe that is the problem, too many leaders were unconcerned with anything that wasn't directly related to the mission, and the "powers that be" decided this is the best implementation...SFC Private RallyPoint MemberFri, 21 Mar 2014 16:40:07 -04002014-03-21T16:40:07-04:00Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 12:07 PM
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/when-did-the-army-lose-focus-on-personal-responsibility?n=81943&urlhash=81943
<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It is an interesting problem. I do find it amusing that we are supposed to take these soldiers into combat, and who are supposed to have our back, yet they can't even manage to make it to their own doctors appointment on time. <br><br>These soldiers, especially with the downsizing, need be counseled and chaptered out. If they can't even take care of themselves, they aren't going to be there for anyone else.<br><br>Of course, the above has a disclaimer that they have been properly counseled and trained and still fail.<br>SSG Private RallyPoint MemberSat, 22 Mar 2014 12:07:08 -04002014-03-22T12:07:08-04:00Response by CW2 Geoff Lachance made Mar 22 at 2014 7:39 PM
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<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Good question! Did they change the leadership principles at NCO schools? One of which is to seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions. "NO EXCUSE" was always the answer the Tac NCO's were looking for when we messed up!<div><br></div>CW2 Geoff LachanceSat, 22 Mar 2014 19:39:07 -04002014-03-22T19:39:07-04:002013-12-27T20:22:31-05:00