When did the military lose the art of smoking bags?

2016-08-17T15:16:29-04:00

When I came in Soldiers made mistakes and we were corrected by the judicious use of smoking bags aka lots of PT. As time wore on, there was less and less of this done and many excuses given by DS, DI's, NCO'S and as to the merits of new methods of corrective training. I'm asking ALL former DS/DI's and leaders as a whole, should we go back to doing it within guidance or forget it ever happened?

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Aug 17 at 2016 3:20 PM

2016-08-17T15:20:21-04:00

I'd say about the early to mid '90's. Started getting some whiners in.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2016 3:21 PM

2016-08-17T15:21:14-04:00

All I know is this, when I came in and I screwed up, I got the hell smoked out of me as well. And I sure as sh*t learned from my smoking sessions.....but since others learn in different ways....who knows anymore

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2016 3:41 PM

2016-08-17T15:41:00-04:00

It was around the early 2000's. I joined in 97 and we still had smoke sessions. We may all learn in different ways but the smoke session is a universal language. In the end and this is my personal opinion we have gotten soft. Now taking money from a service member is now the way to get there attention. The only issue with that is now you are hurting the whole family..

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 17 at 2016 3:43 PM

2016-08-17T15:43:53-04:00

The real question is "Will this correct the underlying cause?" or more often be used as a substitute for "punishment."

Just call a duck a duck is all I ever ask. If you are doing it as Punishment (which is not allowed because we have the UCMJ Process for that) then be honest about it. Sometimes Sweat is better than Paperwork.

But... is this going to make them "better" and actually "prevent" occurrence, or is it more likely to instill "fear" as a motivating force? Nothing wrong with "Object Lessons" if the person actually learned the intended lesson.

Think on this adage "Does yelling make someone LISTEN better?" or are they just going phase you out. Likewise, is PT going to make someone listen (or whatever) better?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2016 4:11 PM

2016-08-17T16:11:45-04:00

I'll bet you didnt have a "stress card" either, did you SSG Warren Swan

Response by SN Greg Wright made Aug 17 at 2016 5:46 PM

2016-08-17T17:46:52-04:00

When I was in boot in 88, I got sent to 'Company Commander's Way' for some infraction I can't even remember (probably didn't line my dungarees up right or something). It was called that because all the CC's had to enter or leave work there, so recruits got sent to stand at attention along that walkway if they needed a lil smoke break. Of course, those insidious bastards took great delight in smokin' the hell out of us. I think I was there for like 2 hours before they sent me packing. It is singularly the tiredest I ever got, in boot. I never went back so it must have worked lol.

Response by SPC James Harsh made Aug 17 at 2016 5:54 PM

2016-08-17T17:54:49-04:00

Nothing stressed me out as much as when the Matv I was in got hit with an ied. first time a mortar lands within 100 meters too. shooting wasn't comparatively as bad until I thought about getting hit in a major vessel. At a minimum, one of the ways teams work in the military is having trust in the ability of your peers. Granted, no one knows how they will react and people have varying degrees of they do. Causing stressors through a smoking or shouting is an inexpensive method. If someone breaks down when getting shouted at for example and can't carry a box of mre's, would that be acceptable to have happen as a leader that is trying to situation troops in an actual stressful situation. unless you want equality, some MOS should not have to give up their ability to make on the spot corrections, it only makes sense.

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 17 at 2016 7:50 PM

2016-08-17T19:50:37-04:00

Well it happened when all the Nations of the world got together and decided not to keep score on the battlefield, and to give everyone a participation ribbon. Didn't you get invited to the conference?

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2016 10:38 PM

2016-08-17T22:38:22-04:00

The only issue i have with it is that then PT becomes a punishment.But PT is good for you... and good for me.

Response by SPC Amy Phillips made Aug 18 at 2016 7:43 AM

2016-08-18T07:43:28-04:00

They've gone soft. Uh, oh, they made someone cry? Better go get him a tissue!
*sniff, sniff *
At the end of BCT in 09, DS told us they couldn't even call you "Private" anymore. One of them called every soldier "troop"
I was like "man, this is what I signed up for? I expected Heavy Metal Jacket. Instead I got Little House on the Prairie. Of course I was at Ft Jackson...Relaxin Jackson

My husband's experience was a little different at FT. Sill in '96 but they only had all male BCT there. Makes alot of difference.

Going back to the beginning would sure weed out all the junk

Response by SGT David T. made Aug 18 at 2016 8:14 AM

2016-08-18T08:14:06-04:00

I never found the need to resort to this for anything other than a PT or weight failure honestly. I treated my people like adults and they acted as such for the most part. If they did not, well I had a library of 4856s (not sure if that is still the form number) I could use. Part of why I adopted that method was because smoking me never worked. I was pretty hard headed my first 2 years in.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2016 11:48 AM

2016-08-18T11:48:55-04:00

From a non-leader (yet) perspective:

Smoke sessions are invaluable. Not only do they teach the lesson needed in an unforgettable fashion, but they strengthen our forces exponentially. See, back in the day, we did not have NEARLY as many PT failures because our soldiers were strong. Why? Because when they screwed up, they got the dog sh*t smoked out of them. The extra PT helped them strengthen and condition themselves. And guess what? When the metal started meeting the meat, those same soldiers could readily and fairly easily sling their buddy up over a shoulder and haul a** out of the LOD.

Now follow this with the simple statement: Pain is a better teacher than paper. A counseling statement will make someone go "oh, okay, that wasn't right" for about a week, and then they forget all about it. But that paper follows them. However, you smoke a soldier's balls off, and he will learn and not forget because the memory of that pain will stick with him. Show up late? Okay. 500 pushups, 600 situps, 500 flutterkicks, and then you just hang out in the Front Leaning Rest until you fall out. Or Koala their happy a** out in the woodline. See if they show up late again.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2016 6:47 PM

2016-08-18T18:47:29-04:00

It happens, but it's now "frowned upon." By the regulation physical training can be employed as corrective training, however you're limited to 5 repetitions of an exercise within the PRT program. As we all know PRT is essentially worthless, so this severely limits the effectiveness of said corrective training.

I'll never forget a 1SG relating a story to me about showing up still drunk to PT as a PVT. His squad leader simply asked "Do you want my punishment or the Commander's punishment?". He opted for option #1 and reported to the PT field the following day in full kit. After a smoke session the incident was forgotten about.

I'd rather see a Soldier sweat and fix themselves than potentially end a career with paperwork immediately. Instead we give PVTs Article 15s and then hold it against them when they're SSGs.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Aug 18 at 2016 8:24 PM

2016-08-18T20:24:36-04:00

PT was for punishment, to kill time, to amuse. Our 3D hat looking back was fairly new i suppose, We had about 30 minutes to chow he looked at his watch and simply said Begin. And we did bends and thrusts , mountain climbers for those 30 minutes. No harm done, you can't PT enough I suppose, I wish we were more like the Army, more push-ups and less bends and thrusts. Hell I'd of had 20 inch arms after basic.

Response by CPL Wilde Geist made Oct 2 at 2020 7:24 PM

2020-10-02T19:24:57-04:00

Smoking bags is necessary and helped me. In Ranger Bat 3/75 one was rough. The " Qualify " one might seem harsh but made a Ranger a Ranger. Take your boots off and shinny up a Pine and rotate so head is down and feet up towards the sky. You hang on for dear life but gravity makes you slide down. As your face gets towards the dirt two jungle boots show up in your vision and when your face touches dirt you get a boot upside the head! You learn how to shinny back up that tree in reverse, blood pouring off your forearms and feet. And you stay there amazed its possible to defy gravity.