When do you give up on a Soldier?

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 05:59:53 -0500

The answer is obviously never. When the Soldier in question is an NCO, its is equally important. Today, I had an NCO, the only female Soldier in my PLT, tell me she had no trust in the unit because of past leader actions. I'm a new PL, but I had spent the last 24+ hours trying to accommodate to her situation (CQ, BH, training requirements) in light of the mission in a way that I felt was reasonable. I was met with attitude, apathy, and strong elements of insubordination. COVID, the overall mission, and a shortage of NCOs have introduced more complex variables than I have never encountered. However, I was dumbfounded by an NCO that could not grasp her duty.

She was scheduled for a 24 CQ shift. She also was part of a crew that needed to certify in the next couple weeks, and her crew had not had time to train properly. I suggested she train during the day she had CQ. My plan was for her to train during the day with a 5 hour break before she would resume CQ, and this was unacceptable to her. We found a compromise where she would go train for 1 HOUR, but she still told us she did not trust us because we "put the mission before Soldiers." This was a smack in the face given my efforts to disagree with other NCOs, me trying to consider all elements of the situations.

Any thoughts? Questions are also welcome.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 6:16 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 06:16:48 -0500

I have come to realization that sometimes people are just "done".

By all means try and keep working with her, but from what I've read thus far, is its likely time for her to get out. Is she toxic towards her peers and subordinates? That would be another red flag to keep an eye out for,

I have started to realize that some people are there to check in and check out, 9-5 job and won't do anything extra. I feel like some people forget they're in the military and if your told to do training during the time of scheduled CQ then guess what you're doing, training.

Response by SGT Mark Halmrast made Feb 11 at 2021 6:35 AM

SGT Mark Halmrast — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 06:35:21 -0500

I was an NCO and cannot relate to the one in your account.

And yes, mission comes before soldiers.
"Mission, Men, Myself" were the priorities we lived as NCOs.

As for the NCO you are leading, I cannot relate to that mindset, trust or no trust.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 7:08 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 07:08:03 -0500

Take a step back from the situation and try to see it from the Soldier’s point of view. Take an objective look at the whole picture, as if you had no stake in the game.

Afterwards, ensure your counseling requirements are up to date. Maybe it’s time to revisit the initial counseling to address standards or expectations. Have a REAL counseling session with the Soldier, one that is thought out and on the calendar—no shooting from the hip. Seek advice from the 1SG, too.

Once this is complete, ensure you are documenting any incidents that fall outside the boundaries of your expectations. Make sure your monthly counseling gets done, addressing work performance both good and bad. Seek to understand and emphasize with her and continually follow up. This is building the team, but also performing due diligence.

Document, document, document—regardless of the expected outcome. At some point certain troops are not salvageable, but the legal standard for such chapters are higher than you might think.

Best of luck, LT.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Feb 11 at 2021 7:12 AM

SPC Erich Guenther — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 07:12:36 -0500

I have a minor difference of opinion of here but I am not an Officer. I give up on a soldier as soon as I conclude further time investment is a lost cause and it's smarter to help them get kicked out of the Army. Why torture the good soldiers in the unit by trying to reform someone that in your heart you know is never going to turn around? Boot them out. That is what the Chapter process is for.

I learned with one of my first roommates in the Army. He was an alcholic. First tried to help him and after being bit or thrown under the bus by him or his behavior more than once. I started to conclude he was not worth salvage. Last straw found out he enlisted with past record of alcholism and a DUI on his record that the Army never found (this was 1984). So that was it and I helped him get out faster by making him look worse as much as I could. Years later I came across him online I think it was 1999, with a Go fund me type website up asking for money. He had been laid off from his job in IT but discussed his Army service and finally at that time he expressed regret for his alcholism. So he did eventually learn his lesson there and maybe getting kicked out helped. I am just happy he was not in the Army all those years with other Soldiers pulling his weight for him.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 11 at 2021 7:13 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 07:13:26 -0500

When do you give up on a Soldier? The answer is certainly not "never".
In short, when one Soldier is consuming their respective leaderships time and attention to the point that the rest of the Soldiers in that leaderships charge is being neglected, it's time to consider chaptering that Soldier.
The old adage of "ten percent of our Soldiers occupying 90% of our time" is a well intentioned, but flawed thing to accept.
All Soldiers are entitled to leadership, mentorship and guidance. Not just our problem children. When one member of the unit is causing the rest of the units morale and readiness to decline by making the leadership absentee parents to the rest of the unit, it's time to go.
It's not abandonment. All the attention and wishful thinking in the world will not turn a cancer into a kidney or liver.
The unit deserves leadership that will remove cancer instead of allowing it to metastasize.

Response by SGT Carl Forsman made Feb 11 at 2021 8:25 AM

SGT Carl Forsman — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 08:25:19 -0500

I have a question, and I have been out of the service for a good while. When has the mission not come first or in front of the soldiers? To me, this soldier sounds like a spoiled brat, and you made a mistake by compromising with her over anything. I realize you are dealing with an NCO and this is unfortunate that you have to deal with this. 1. the fact this is a female, you called it out means that you, could be the most professional leader ever, are considering her differently which is telling to the entire situation. Either she lets it be known she is a she and she demands to be treated like a queen, probably not much bending at the waste and going to work kind of thing, or you have segregated her in your mind and put her gender as a gentleman in front of the fact that she is a GI. 2. the Army is now running a giant puzzle game but it gets accomplished with all of it's millions of puzzle pieces at 100 mph fueled by compromising with everyone's emotions.
Number 2, even in modern society doesn't seem to be the answer because when I was writing it having been in the military, spelling and grammar aside, just the thought of what I was saying did not compute. I understand the pandemic has created issues with normal process, I also realize you could be in a situation where your mission is the pandemic...I still have to follow this up with a question though, has it changed, or don't you still get 24 off after being on 24 hours when in garrison? I realize there could be dependents involved or something like that, that is for the NCO to figure out, not the Army, I thought this is were horse trading, favors and "blue chips" were generated around duty and making sure your shifts were covered, or am I missing something?

Response by MSgt Steve Sweeney made Feb 11 at 2021 8:28 AM

MSgt Steve Sweeney — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 08:28:40 -0500

Do not accommodate. Down that path lies heartache. You let your subordinates know that you are not your predecessor and do not expect to be judged on the actions of your predecessor any more than you would judge them by the actions of your other subordinates. I would say that would be the extent of explaining of your actions you need to do. Hold them to standards fairly and firmly. Tell her that you do put the mission before soldiers because that is how the military works and remind her she is there to serve, not to be served. There is no requirement that they like this arrangement, only that they acknowledge it and conform to the standards why still under obligation of service. They are not required to reenlist at the end of their contract, but they are under contract.

It is said God helps those that help themselves, and you are not God, so don't set a higher standard for yourself, nor for this individual.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 8:53 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 08:53:09 -0500

The Army doesn't run on cliches and motivation, that stops working after Basic. The Army runs on reality and finite resources. The most finite resource of those is time, you cannot allow one Soldier to absorb all the time that other Soldiers deserve and need.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 8:59 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 08:59:40 -0500

Soldiers (ALL RANKS emphasized) come and go. The Army always goes rolling along. Don’t give up on the process. The ALRM and basic Soldier care. Deep down, you never give up. That individual gives up on the purpose for the Army and their ability to be successful in it. Document your efforts and ensure it reflects in all evaluations. Do your part in ensuring that person never gets promoted, maybe even chaptered. Zero tolerance within realm of human reality. I once gave a 5/5 to an NCO. I told that individual they’d be a great Civilian and they were a good person. Just not fit to lead our nations sons and daughters in combat!

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 9:40 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 09:40:27 -0500

"she still told us she did not trust us because we put the mission before Soldiers."

I have a real problem with this statement.
The Army doesn't exist to first accommodate every Soldier, and then complete only the missions that are convenient to that end.
The Army does, in fact, exist to complete the mission first, and leaders care for Soldiers as best as possible throughout.
The short way to say that is mission first, Soldiers always.

Clearly, this NCO wasn't ready to be an NCO. She's not the first and she won't be the last, but if she can't grasp and employ this very simple concept soon, then both she and the Army would be better off parting ways.

Also, when you have an NCO on CQ and offer them a chance to take 5 hours away from the CQ desk to train their troops, if they reply with anything other than "hell yeah" or "any chance can we make that 7 hours?", then there is something seriously wrong with that NCO.
Because CQ is the textbook definition of training time wasted.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 10:32 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 10:32:44 -0500

Thank you for this question 2LT Private RallyPoint Member. So I’m going to give a slightly different take although the old me would agree with 99.9% of the comments raised.
BLUF- if after your best attempts which I’ll describe next, and she is still not changing then you’ve done your best and it’s on her.
So try a different nontraditional military approach that modern leaders use. There are several philosophies on dealing with the problem child. A simple google search of "how to deal with a difficult employee as a leader” will pull up many hits.
BL-The first step to this is making sure you have well-developed EQ. You need empathy to understand and try to see where she’s coming from. Clearly, something has troubled her to be how she is. Perhaps you can turn things around. But you must first understand her.
You may need to enlist others she has positive relationships with to help you succeed. You may at times need to remind her of certain realities with mil service such as mission and team, but this should not be punitive or done as a negative reinforcement.
This approach will take time and energy but it will not only possibly help her but it will make you a better leader. In fact, a true leader. Look up John Maxwell and the 5 stages of leadership. Greatest read for all true leaders

Response by CW4 Mark Brubeck made Feb 11 at 2021 10:46 AM

CW4 Mark Brubeck — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 10:46:16 -0500

Never. Document document document and put the Soldier out of the Army at a very last resort.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 11:11 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 11:11:00 -0500

You can shift your efforts to another once she is in the brig, if this continues. Remind her that your job and responsibility IS mission over men in the meanwhile.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Feb 11 at 2021 11:16 AM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 11:16:09 -0500

I am of the opinion that we don't give up on soldiers, but there comes a day when you have to. How much energy are you expending on someone? Is this person doing what she should be doing at her level? If not start the documentation, she may need to be administratively reduced for failure to perform at her grade. Soldiers get chaptered for all sorts of things, did we give up on them or did they take it upon themselves to not do the right thing? Some soldiers make dumb decisions, I know I did many years ago. If a soldier chooses to smoke dope, and they already know the consequences, then sorry I am not wasting a ton of effort on you. You knew it before you picked it up. Overweight soldier who is otherwise good to go, we put effort in. If their is improvement we keep driving, but if they show no improvement or get worse what then?

I watched every Sunday Afternoon my NG Unit commander would spend hours counseling soldiers for Weight control, and PT failure. The rest of the unit would have to wait to be released till this was done. I started getting on both the 1SG and Commander to let those who were getting it done go home on time, and let those who didn't meet the standard to stay for their "paperwork." There were multiple reasons for me doing this. In the Guard people can live hundreds of miles from where they drill. I have driven over 700 miles to a unit, and know people who have gone farther than that. Is it right to keep them? IMHO no, safety dictates we get them out the door as soon as possible.

I think we get to wrapped around the axle about being perfect. I recall back in the 1980's I was told the Russians expected a 5% fatality rate for major Chemical Warfare exercises, and that the Russian Army used watered down live agents. Is this true? I have never found a Russian Military Snopes.com website to verify it. Think about it if it was true. Jacked up soldiers would either go away, or get their stuff straight real fast. Sun Tzu & Frederick the Great were known to employ tactics that now a days we would be terrified to use. Imagine the reaction of soldiers if their Company Commander was beheaded for failing to follow orders?

To much has been put into taking care of soldiers that our mission of defending the nation becomes compromised IMHO. If Snuffy doesn't bring his field jacket, and you give him yours, what did you just do? You reinforced to all the Snuffy's that someone will give you something when they forget. If Snuffy froze his tail section off, bet Snuffy would not do that again. We do entirely too much hand holding and not enough soldier development.

How many of us had working parents who could not take a day off for their spouses medical appointments? What is that about? is that good leadership, or being a sucker too afraid of complaints? I submit you are too afraid to tell your soldier no.

Okay I will get off my soap box

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Feb 11 at 2021 11:20 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 11:20:23 -0500

Mission, Men, Myself.
That is the order of priorities for good leaders since time immemorial. Yes, you should be putting the mission first - and so should that NCO. That does not mean that we sacrifice the Soldiers needlessly, because then we won't have anyone for the NEXT mission. But mission always comes first.
Remind this NCO that the NCO Creed lists two basic duties that should always be uppermost in her mind - the accomplishment of her mission and the welfare of her Soldiers. And then let her know that there is a reason that accomplishment of the mission comes first.

It is true that one of the main roles of an NCO as far as it comes to taking care of Soldiers is to provide pushback when the Soldiers' welfare is being compromised. But that comes in the form of providing pushback at the time of compromise, not in the form of having a bad attitude months later.

I am going to make a couple of assumptions now. I assume the NCO is a SGT or a CPL, because that is who is usually on CQ (SSGs and SFCs usually have SDNCO). I am going to also assume that this NCO has at least one NCO between you and her. Finally, I will assume that you rate her first line leader, based on standard Platoon organization (TL, SL, PSG/PL, and PL rates SLs and PSG).

Based on those assumptions, this is, in my opinion, one of those situations that you should let NCOs handle. I am NOT advocating that you ignore this behavior, or wash your hands of it. But you need to pull that Squad/Section Leader aside, let them know of the problem, and let them know that this is THEIR leadership challenge to fix. Provide support, encouragement, and resources (and bring the PSG in on the situation because he/she has a WORLD of guidance and suggestions to offer), but let your subordinate NCO deal with fixing that SGTs attitude problem. If this NCO is truly unsalvageable, then you start doing the paperwork to either reduce them or remove them from the Army.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Feb 11 at 2021 11:56 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 11:56:16 -0500

OK, new Platoon Leader. Come up with the plan, sit down with your PSG and go over it, then both of you sit down and inform that NCO of the plan. Last time I looked, the Army isn't a democracy and as long as it's a lawful order, then it needs to be obeyed. You are the Platoon Leader, step up and act like it. The squad/section leaders should be answering to you and this one sounds like you need to have a loud "heart to heart" discussion of what you expect of her and what you think her weaknesses are and how you want them corrected. If this NCO is incapable of following instructions, start documenting that fact with counseling statements, etc, and put her out of the service.
Sit down with your Platoon Sergeant and get his views of this soldier and listen to his suggestions. He has been around the platoon and that soldier longer and has years more experience. You don't always need to follow those suggestions, but make sure you have valid reasons not to use his advice. Make sure that he supports your course of action.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 12:59 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:59:24 -0500

"Mission first. Soldiers always." You went above and beyond to accommodate. I get trying to take care of her "needs' but you can't let that impact your mission. As an NCO she should know this. If she doesn't understand how the military works, she may be in need of remedial training and a "lay down the law" counseling session. Maybe she needs to study the Warrior Ethos and the NCO Creed a little.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 1:35 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:35:24 -0500

Always best to extend yourself to retain/motivate/help; but, there comes a time when you can only do what you can do and it appears that you have gone *above and beyond.* At some point the cost (in time and effort at the expense of others) benefit doesn’t warrant the (hoped for) return. Long story short —-> get with the program or consider how such a *line* would be accommodated (sic) in private industry.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Feb 11 at 2021 1:48 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:48:49 -0500

Ma'am Mission ALWAYS comes 1st, you try to watch out for and work/protect your soldiers. there maybe 1000's of other troops that are depending no your mission success. Like the song- "Know when to hold them, Know when to hold them", you can't keep everybody or keep them happy. You have a duty to your other troops, and if she is cutting into others time, send her home. Remember , this is NOT LETS Make a Deal. CQ maybe 24 hr duty, but that means normally the NCO checks on the desk/runner regularly, not set on their ass for 24hrs. She doesn't even need a break, because normally the next day is her day off. If she can't work in excess of 24 hours, then she is worthless in a combat environment. That is exactly what your mission is suppose to be- have/train/maintain a unit that is ready to go anyway at anytime and successfully do thier job. AN uncertified crew is an un trained crew and worthless to you/unit. Quietly pull her aside, and tell her/ Hell read her last NCOER duty description to her and tell her either meet the standards of I'll suggest you go home, don't follow orders and you will go home as a SPC.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Feb 11 at 2021 1:50 PM

SSG Brian G. — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:50:39 -0500

As leaders we like to think the answer is never. The reality is that is a "young leader" attitude before experience and wisdom set it. The reality is, leadership never gives up on a SM. SM's give up on leadership. Even when we as leaders are forced to utilize the system in terms of UCMJ and regulations to counsel and ultimately put a SM out of the service, we are always there, always willing to listen, to mentor, to guide, but the SM has got to be willing to take steps as well. All too often they do not.

Yours is a hard situation as you inherited an existing negativity towards leadership born by repeated experience. The problem is that the SM cannot reasonably hold you to account for the failures or perceptive failures of leaders before you. The term hope for the best, plan for the worst comes to mind here.

You need to lead without showing undo favoritism. Come in, talk to the SM's, find out their concerns, their gripes and so on and try to reach a compromise but at the end of the day, there is a mission to be accomplished whether all parties are happy with the way in which it is accomplished or not. The young Sgt has a mission requirement as well as a training requirement. It sounds to me like she has been coddled more than a bit and is used to using this as a way to get her wants met. She needs to be locked up at attention and reminded that she is not some wet behind the ears private, but a leader of men and women. That she has a creed and a duty to live up to. She would not allow a sm under her command speak to and act towards her in such a manner, so why is it acceptable for her?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 4:12 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:12:07 -0500

At the end of the day many people are selfish as to their own personal interests.

I have seen nothing work itself out with trying to bend over backwards to appease someone with an unprofessional approach to work and their own agenda (be it lazy, or burnt out, or simply criminal).

The only time I have seen soldiers suddenly do an about face with their nonsense is when I have lined up my ducks to chapter them out. Then it's all the sudden "oh wait, we can fix this".

Any extra chances you give a soldier is a risk you take on yourself. Because if something completely goes south you will have to articulate and support through documentation you had a valid reason to give the soldier another chance and it just can't be because you think everyone is worth saving, and you want to be a nice person.

The Army is full of extra chances. Counselings are an extra chance. Though folks freak out about them they are a documented nice approach to seek a corrective action. Counselings disappear once the working relationship ceases through a PCS or change of assignment for either party. So who cares.

What counselings are is documentation to cover you ass as a leader.

Give them a chance in a counseling.

Give them a second chance in the follow up to the counseling

Use the counselings as documentation on the NCOER's.

Use the finalized and HRC approved and iPerm'd NCOER as documentation to limit the NCO's advancement and schooling opportunities.

But you can't do anything without laying the foundation of documentation.

When I was a SPC, I got bossed around by SGT's and SSG's. I played the game, and did what was expected of my lane. When as a 2LT that lane no longer included conforming to the whims of Jr NCOs.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Feb 11 at 2021 4:22 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:22:39 -0500

I think there are times when it is appropriate to give up on soldiers. When I was 20 I joined the guard. After a year I went active duty. I wasn't emotionally prepared to be in Germany without my wife for almost 7 months. I got into trouble with alcohol and finances. Eventually I was chaptered out and got a general discharge. I spent 9 years as a civilian and then 9-11 happened. A year later I went back to the guard with a completely different attitude. I retired with 20 years and was very satisfied because I was a completely different soldier the second time around. Having gotten a dose of responsibility when my CoC gave up on me ultimately helped me understand I needed to grow as a man. Ultimately it contributed to being a very effective SFC, and it contributed to my experience when I would have to make recommendations whether or not a soldier should be discharged or given another chance. One of the things I did, in addition to being the mess sergeant, was to take in soldiers from other sections and mentor them. A little more than half of the time I was able to figure out what the malfunction was and address that. I've seen several of those joes go on to be squared away NCOs. Giving up on someone isn't the same as throwing them out with the trash. Sometimes it is necessary for individual growth and to protect the effectiveness of the unit.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Feb 11 at 2021 7:23 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 19:23:46 -0500

I can understand an individual being jaded or mistrusting due to previous leadership. But at some point we move on. It is previous leadership and not current leadership so you need to convey to this NCO that they need to lean into the mission and have just a little trust in the present. You can't help if they won't let you.

With that said you can't give them a mile of slack so they can drowned everyone in their misery. If the NCO is incapable of creating a schedule that completes the mission while also allowing for training it sounds like they need to be managed and if this becomes a trend someone else should be leading that element.

Troop welfare is important but you can't sacrifice the job for hurt feelings.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 8:09 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 20:09:41 -0500

That's is flat out refusal to train and disobeying a lawful order. At the bare minimum talk to your PSG and 1SG about a Bar to Continued Service. Either she shapes up or she lets herself get seperated by the Bar. As for it being an NCO, either recommend FG for her crimes and get her dropped a rank or get the ball rolling on an administrative reduction board. Allowing NCOs like this in the Corps is a direct result of "up or out" and she has proven that she doesn't have the required work ethic or attitude to be an NCO.

Response by 1SG Joseph Dartey made Feb 11 at 2021 8:44 PM

1SG Joseph Dartey — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 20:44:04 -0500

They way I read this is you are dealing with an NCO. 1st, she needs to be reminded that she is an NCO; 2nd, she needs to be handed, reminded of and read the NCO Creed (especially the first paragraph); 3rd, she needs to be reminded of the oath she took when she enlisted/re-enlisted I, (_________________), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God)." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962); 4th, you are a commissioned officer and the order(s) you are giving, either directly or indirectly, is a direct order and willful disobedience of said order is punishable under Article 92 of the UMCJ and she could also be charged with "Dereliction of Duty" under Article 92; Disrespect (Article 89). There are many more Article that she could be charged under, with the possibility of a discharge. All this needs to be done on a General Counseling Form (DA Form 4856) and I have always worded my adverse counselings with the wording of the UCMJ and listed the appropriate Article. This was a real eye-opener for a lot of my soldiers, especially when they researched what punishment the Commander could administered to them.

Response by SGT Kyle Bickley made Feb 11 at 2021 10:26 PM

SGT Kyle Bickley — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 22:26:36 -0500

I was taught by SMG Harold Lane long ago one thing. Right or wrong you lead! Your new, you don't negotiate leadership! You listen, teach, encourage. As for your NCO with the attitude, tighten her ass up! An ounce of that can kill moral in a combat unit. You are responsible for the lives of all. If she has the balls to openly challenge you now, what is the world do you think is gonna happen when lead is flying? You'll come home with a bunch of bodies because you, not her, failed. Train your soldier to follow the orders, to obey. You are not there to be her buddy! She doesn't have to like you, she does have to work with you and give her best. If she is unwilling, relieve her of her command of your soldiers. I am old school and believe in old school soldiering! My SMG wasn't anyone's friend! He was hard on us! He lost people in Vietnam and it weighed on him for his mistakes. Once told me he was never gonna tell a family ever again the reason why their loved one was six feet down and a flag to remember them by. Then he told me to get my head outta my ass, or he would personally teach me how to lead! You need to read up on Patton and his leadership! Follow his rules before you fail! All do respect Sir, failure is not an option with our troops!

Response by Cpl Roger Cortez made Feb 12 at 2021 1:53 AM

Cpl Roger Cortez — Fri, 12 Feb 2021 01:53:10 -0500

Something doesn't jibe here 2LT! May be my Marine training but it appears to me that a strong case of assertiveness and a sense of command on your part was lacking. No disrespect sir, I just don't know.....I'll cite an example: In the Corps if an NCO addressed a 2nd Looie in the manner you stated your NCO did, I will guarantee you that that NCO's ass is grass and the 2nd Looie is the lawn mower! Now, any enlisted person in the Corps could disagree with 2nd Looie, may offer suggestions or opinions. More times than often the Looie would consider it but you better know your damn facts and be respectful. Here is where the command portion comes in. You as a Looie know certainly that the power in a lawful order is immense. In the Corps we were often reminded that if given a lawful order you will carry it out. We were told that if you disagree with the order and mission you will carry it out then come back and complain! So where was the assertiveness to require this NCO to respond to your lack of command? Side Bar: "Old salts", NCO's that served in WWII, Korea, maybe now Vietnam Vets could and did challenge a 2nd Looies simply because they been there done that. I mean with the voice of a Marine drill instructor. But they always followed orders because the 2nd Looie was an assertive and commanding. No negotiations! Never give up on a soldier. Evidently he/she will give up on themselves for not having the proper leadership. They too on a given day can be leaders if led.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2021 5:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Feb 2021 17:10:09 -0500

soldier first, mission always! This NCO and section should always be mission ready! Being a NCO means sacrifice of self for the section ,unit, battalion, brigade or country. We all signed the same check! There have been times sleep did not, will be times sleep will not find me but my section will always get rest and be mission capable. The section looks to their NCO(s) for that leadership, if they are giving a attitude of this nature .... counseling is a great motivator! good luck 2LT Turner

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Feb 13 at 2021 10:22 PM

LCpl Michael Cappello — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 22:22:59 -0500

If you believe you should give up then they are no longer a military member and should become a civilian again. If they are still worthy of being a service member then find out what is causing their malfunction and help them straighten their act up. Sometimes there will be "turds" that slipped through the cracks and made it into the service. If they cannot or do not have the proper make up for the service then they should be processed out. For the good of the service. As the old saying goes: A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Those individuals may end up costing someone their lives.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Feb 14 at 2021 11:53 AM

SGT Robert Wager — Sun, 14 Feb 2021 11:53:43 -0500

LT. Where is your platoon sergeant?

I know that sounds funny, but I’m actually asking a serious question. As a young LT it seems you might be out in the weeds worrying about managing NCO’s instead of managing the platoon as a whole. This young sergeant needs NCO mentoring not officer mentoring. I am assuming you are her senior rater and not her rater. Give your platoon sergeant a directive to handle it and move on.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Feb 15 at 2021 8:48 AM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 08:48:02 -0500

As usual, we are not there and are not familiar with the entire situation, but here are my thoughts. It sounds as though you've attempted to reason; have consulted with the other NCOs and are faced with mission critical situation where your NCO is responsible for training others is not responsive.
Her trust of you is irrelevant. You are responsible for the readiness and training. If you have talked with the other NCOs senior to her and found her response to you consistent with her past performance, perhaps you've come to the point where you need an attention getter.
An Art 15 might be the leadership tact to take. Her performance and attitude indicates she is not ready for her responsibilities. If her past performance merits, a reduction in rank suspended might be appropriate with specific expectations of changes during the suspension period as criteria for retaining her position and grade. If her record indicates less than exemplary performance, a straight reduction would be appropriate.
My point is, you are just starting out, thus involvement of your seniors in resolving an issue is appropriate. All the Art 15s I conducted were preceded by consult with the individual's seniors and a discussion of what steps have been taken to resolve the issue. Your senior may have recommendations of other steps he would recommend, but at least he will know you are recognizing situations and attempting to resolve them. I was once told that all the grades who wore gold insignia are officers in training, take advantage of your seniors who are responsible for helping you through rough spots.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Feb 15 at 2021 9:37 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:37:27 -0500

2LT Private RallyPoint Member there comes a time when a consensus style of leadership doesn’t fit the situation. You may need to set mission oriented performance standards for the NCO, make sure she understands, and order her to Soldier on and get the job done. Part of being in the Service is learning the needs of the Service are more important than the needs of the individual. That’s part of what separates us from private citizens.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2021 10:11 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:11:19 -0500

Another red flag for me is the "trust" comment. Some Soldiers chose not to trust leaders. When Soldiers tell me that they don't trust a Leader, I ask one simple follow up, is your Leader untrustworthy. If a Leader is untrustworthy, I have a path to correct an issue. Stating that a Leader is untrustworthy requires substantiation, I can choose not to trust anyone without cause.

Response by LCpl Charles Stacker made Mar 17 at 2021 1:33 PM

LCpl Charles Stacker — Wed, 17 Mar 2021 13:33:15 -0400

Never some people are slow to mature and grasp reality . I was that guy . C co 1st recon Cpl Fairbanks crawled head first down the side of a mountain looked me in the eye and called me a slur for a big cat suddenly I didn't fear death anymore I just didn't want Cpl Fairbanks to think bad of me

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2021 2:18 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Mar 2021 14:18:22 -0400

Well the mission does come first, but MANY people feel that it's second to the person or a person's career. Perhaps she needs an adjustment.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2021 7:20 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 07:20:39 -0400

LT, first you have done a great job thus far, and I can tell you have some leadership experience. My advice is simply this, give this NCO her initial counseling, outlining measured expectations of her as they pertain to her duties and responsibilities as a Noncommissioned Officer. Sir, I further advise you to ask what circumstances led to her not trusting the leadership, what she has done or recommend to improve and rekindle that trust. The advent of COVID (while its a constraint) must not be a continuous scapegoat for the failure to fulfill our responsibilities in any capacity. “Counseling” remains the most effective tool in our leadership Arsenal use it.