When do you give up on a soldier?

2020-07-16T21:45:42-04:00

In various forms, this question has been asked all the time here on RallyPoint. Now that I have returned to active duty, this time around as an officer, I find myself asking it.

I can tell you that in my heart, the answer is never. Conversation over.

But it's not that simple, people are not that simple. Legal and ethical responsibilities are not that simple. The fact is that not everyone belongs in the military; they can't hack it for one reason or another. But I don't think I, as a leader, am always the one to decide that; the soldier usually is. I identify when a soldier is choosing to quit, i.e. be lazy, be unprepared, lack discipline and tenacity, act unethically, disregard standards and thus choosing to fail. I won't be the reason a soldier is failing, the only excuse they'll have is their own words and actions. So we work and we train until we meet standards. I will believe in them and I will train them, they have to do the rest. This means believing in themself and aligning with my plans with proportionate effort.

I know that puts a lot on each of our shoulders, but isn't that the job we signed up for? We don't have to be the best; I can tell you without a doubt I am far from it. However, we must give our best in working to achieve the standards of our profession, if we are failing to meet them.

Therefore, we almost never give up on each other. The exception is simply being incapable of meeting standards, which is certainly possible. But I feel like that's the rarity. Or perhaps, I feel like we should go forward assuming the best of our soldiers, and that incapability is the rarity.

Please let me know if I am off base with this. What do you think?

Response by CW5 Jack Cardwell made Jul 16 at 2020 9:48 PM

2020-07-16T21:48:46-04:00

Where are your NCOs?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2020 9:49 PM

2020-07-16T21:49:08-04:00

You don’t. But there’s nothing you can do when they give up on themselves.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2020 9:57 PM

2020-07-16T21:57:31-04:00

I work to help soldiers who truly want to help themselves. I will give some examples: 1) I had two overweight Soldiers. I went after work to go on runs and assist with eating habits. One managed to lose the weight, while the other refused to run without falling out while bragging about how much he was eating. After two months I turned him over to be chapter. 2) For NCOs and officers no forgiveness for drugs or alcohol charges...I recommend max/max and separation when I can. The first example can be used for Soldiers minor discipline problems as well. You can tell if a Soldier is trying to better themselves or if they no longer care. Just my two cents.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2020 10:01 PM

2020-07-16T22:01:21-04:00

Typically the house answer is when the soldier gives up on themself, but we know it’s not that easy; It’s different for every soldier and every situation. That being said, leave it to your NCO’s Sir, you have other things to worry about now. MHO

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jul 16 at 2020 10:02 PM

2020-07-16T22:02:58-04:00

I never gave up on them. But that doesn't mean that I supported their continued presence in my Army, either. Even as they were being chaptered on my recommendation, I still supported them and worked to find them the best possible civilian path.

Response by MSG Lance Kelly made Jul 16 at 2020 10:13 PM

2020-07-16T22:13:34-04:00

I think you said it yourself, you don't. Usually it's the Soldier that gives up. I have dealt with the Soldier who can't pass the APFT or weight standards which then affects their ability to attend NCOES, becomes a burden on metrics, and leaves you having to explain to the Commnader/1SG what the issue is and how you plan to fix it. When the Soldier isn't willing you have to document through counseling, continue to provide mentorship, and seek to find out what is the issue. When all options fail then separation might be the right choice. I had one who struggled with weight so they couldn't attend school and then when the weight was under control they ended up on a profile and couldn't take the APFT. I worked with the Soldier on exercise and eating plans but they had no drive to reach higher. They didn't want to be a leader, they were ok with wearing the rank but didn't want the responsibility. All I could do then was continue to provide leadership, give them opportunities to succeed, and when they failed to document it on their evaluation report. Because their status affected unit readiness we attempted to process the Soldier for separation; however, our company HR office was not efficient in their performance in processing the separation packet. I retired before the case was resolved. So, we provide every opportunity for them to succeed and show them we are with them. When they aren't willing or able to succeed then maybe it's time for them to find a new career outside of the military.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Jul 16 at 2020 10:17 PM

2020-07-16T22:17:26-04:00

Some soldiers lack the willingness, and sometimes the ability to be an asset to the Army. If they have potential and are willing to work to improve themselves - do what you can to help them succeed. If they lack motivation, have serious character flaws or simply can't do their job - help them get out of the Army ASAP - its best for both the solider and the Army.

Response by SGT Justin Brothen made Jul 16 at 2020 10:43 PM

2020-07-16T22:43:51-04:00

Without knowing what the failure is, there is no way to properly give advice.

Response by MAJ Jason Sierakowski made Jul 16 at 2020 10:59 PM

2020-07-16T22:59:42-04:00

If you stick in this business long enough, you'll be a commander. You will have to make those decisions I'm completing a chapter packet, or other means of discipline such as UCMJ. This includes your ability at a company level to complete summarized article 15's and recommendations for hire authority. Never feel bad about doing this. This is your job. Ensuring that you uphold the standard. Ensuring that your small corner of the Army is the best that you can possibly make it. Remember it's a team effort. So your NCOs that train and execute, and the soldiers that are train ed since basic training, through AIT, and then to your formation. Remember there's also NCOs that have been in for a number of years that will put themselves in a category to receive UCMJ or a chapter. Always remember it's a decision that they made. You just happened to put the pieces together and execute the administrative portion. When I was in command I always expressed to everyone that they are the ones that put them in positions. Weather positive or negative they're the ones that make the choice to do the right thing or the wrong thing. To take initiative or not take initiative.

I understand your post and the philosophy that you're questioning, I suggest you use these questions toward your seniors and look for guidance and mentorship. Where rally point is good for basic conversational functions, I always recommend the first step is senior people whether company commanders, first sergeants, battalion executive officers, etc. In order to gain realistic insight.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jul 16 at 2020 11:06 PM

2020-07-16T23:06:36-04:00

You have a finite amount of time and assets. How much will you spend on the soldiers who want and deserve it? How much will you spend on the soldiers who who don't want it and don't deserve it.

You cannot salvage a soldier who does not want to be salvaged.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Jul 16 at 2020 11:12 PM

2020-07-16T23:12:23-04:00

I never gave up on a troop. I did have several that gave up on themselves though. At that point, the best thing you can do for them is help them return to civilian status. The military isn't for everyone. Some don't realize that until after they have completed Basic and AIT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2020 11:13 PM

2020-07-16T23:13:36-04:00

For me it takes knowing my soldiers. Knowing when they are going through something and thus choosing to give up or when they simply give up and don't want to be a soldier anymore. There's a distinct difference and it isn't the same with any two soldiers. I can retrain a soldier who feels helpless. It's another thing to have a soldier that isn't retainable due to their willful actions. I've had both types of soldiers before. I try and do all that I can before I write a soldier off.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Jul 16 at 2020 11:24 PM

2020-07-16T23:24:49-04:00

As long as the service member is willing to try, I will get the senior enlisted to help. The problem is time. There is only so much of it for you and the people below you. You have to make that decision, when the SM is taking up more time than they can ever possibly contribute, and the time you need to spend on the SM's that are performing is getting impacted.

Response by MAJ Orlando Rivera made Jul 16 at 2020 11:43 PM

2020-07-16T23:43:00-04:00

The military is not a democracy, neither has room for social experimentation. As leaders, we have to try our hardest in get the personnel to adjust and abide to the life they choose as military. It is a volunteer force. We have an obligation to be tactical and technical proficient as well as keep our force collectively lethal. If an individual decide to disrupt the morale of the troops and doesn’t adjust, then we show them the door. It is not for everyone and not all will get a participation trophy. The Armed Forces didn’t joint us, we joint the Armed Forces. Is all written, all we do is our part to facilitate the possible environment with fairness and equality.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jul 17 at 2020 1:40 AM

2020-07-17T01:40:18-04:00

Sir, I think you are correct.
When you can not motivate a Soldier to improve, help a Soldier to perform and they continue to fail to reach even the minimum standard, then they have given up themselves and you can not do it for them.

Response by PO1 Richard Nyberg made Jul 17 at 2020 1:55 AM

2020-07-17T01:55:02-04:00

When I came back from Vietnam in 1968 I was sent to Germany, I got promoted to Sgt and I had 2 kids working for me. One wouldn't take showers and the other one I found out cried every night and the rest of the squad were concerned about both of them. I eventually talked to the CO and we decided it would be best to have them discharged. I knew that the one that was despondent all the time wouldn't make it back if he was sent to Vietnam and might endanger others. I guess you have to weigh all the details and decide what's best for everyone and the Army.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Jul 17 at 2020 3:29 AM

2020-07-17T03:29:16-04:00

I have never "given up" on a Soldier, even when their actions fully warranted separation. There is a point where the resources required for the individual Soldier effects the rest of the team, squad, platoons effectiveness. The Soldiers actions determine whether they get separated, according to regulations. Substance abuse is a two strike and your out policy and regulation, failing two consecutive APFT's is separation. We can lead a horse to water, but we cannot make them drink. You can mostly tell when a Soldier is trying, and you can tell when a Soldier has quit on themselves. I would fight for the one who is trying, I will try to alter the one who has quit, point them to the resources required to assist them, but it is up to them to take the next step.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2020 3:31 AM

2020-07-17T03:31:44-04:00

When I get my DD214 after 20 years.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jul 17 at 2020 5:21 AM

2020-07-17T05:21:44-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member As a leader or even a peer you never give up - they may give up on themselves, their military career, a marriage, and the list is endless, but you're always there for them no matter the circumstances. Whatever their individual decision is, never close the door or lose their respect for not being available during good and bad times. Make yourself available, always provide guidance, and provide an open door for council. I put in these words every day:

"Respect Always - Warriors for Life!"

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jul 17 at 2020 6:08 AM

2020-07-17T06:08:10-04:00

When I wanted to give up while in, my C O, and the N C O's around me bolstered me up and gave the reason not to give up. So the answer is to never give up on the person.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2020 7:03 AM

2020-07-17T07:03:17-04:00

You don't. Even the ones that give up on themselves. You still push for and support every day until its their last in the Army, and even then let them know you are there if they need assistance. Even the ones that piss you off, suck at their jobs, fail PT, get in trouble, whatever. You don't have to hold their hands and baby them or coddle them, but I've learned even with those that are failing and have given up on themselves, as a leader you still have to be the motivation and that consistent energy of support. Their failures or issues could be related to much more than you know, and may not belong in the Army... but everybody still needs support. I have had so many Soldiers that had bad attitudes or were generally shitty, but would still go out of their way to help me out if I asked or told because I showed that even though they were fucking up, I'm still going to support them. Its not my job to determine who gets support and who doesn't. As leaders, its our job to inspire and motivate others to do tasks that they may not normally want to do. My job is to provide unbiased and consistent leadership to every Soldier assigned to me whether or not I like them personally. They can choose to accpet or adhere to my advice, or it cancgo in one ear/ out the other... but I will always be that leader a Soldier can talk to or ask questions.

I don't see pushing someone out of the Army as giving up however. Like you said, not everyone belongs on the Army, but I would say those getting forced out especially need support because they're gonna have a very quick transition and rude awakening when they have to suddenly be a civilian and provide for themselves things the Army provides

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jul 17 at 2020 8:03 AM

2020-07-17T08:03:46-04:00

When the rest of your Soldiers are suffering because you're focused on just the one.
All Soldiers are entitled to leadership, mentoring, training and guidance. If they aren't getting it because a problem child is eating up all of their leaderships time, then the leadership OWES those Soldiers their efforts to chapter that Soldier.
You can't sink a unit for one Soldier. That's my line.

Response by CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana made Jul 17 at 2020 8:38 AM

2020-07-17T08:38:56-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member, remember, never give up on your Teammates, drag them along if required. Punishment is in your hands, but use this tool wisely only after proper counseling and opportunities to repair. Once your Team can trust you to stand behind them, the Team will make you a success story. Make the best with what you get and training is not your only responsibility as a leader; know your Teammates and become part of their journeys. Thanks.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2020 9:54 AM

2020-07-17T09:54:45-04:00

To some, it may seem like wasted energy, but as long as they are my Soldier, I will never give up on them. I will do everything I can to help them succeed. I will always give them the tools and knowledge to propel themselves higher. If they choose NOT to take the knowledge and tools, that's on them. It'll probably drive me crazy, but that doesn't mean I stop trying. The only moment I will stop is the day AFTER they ETS....and even then I won't give up on them. I still maintain contact with former Soldiers that have ETSd to see how they're doing, provide advice and guidance where and when I can.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Jul 17 at 2020 10:25 AM

2020-07-17T10:25:10-04:00

When you find that one single soldier is monopolizing so much of your time that you lose focus on the others, they are at or near the cutoff point. The old adage "90% of your time focusing on the 10%" comes to mind.
If you have established your expectation with your NCOs and team leaders let them work with the problem children to bring them up to standard. If that doesn't work let the deficient SM know that they are at a point of making a life changing decision;get your shit straight or get tossed.
I had a few young Marines give up on me. I was able to salvage some of them but not all. Like many have said here, not all who chose military service are actually cut out for it.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 17 at 2020 11:35 AM

2020-07-17T11:35:56-04:00

If they are cancerous then its time to boot them out.

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Jul 17 at 2020 1:58 PM

2020-07-17T13:58:23-04:00

This is why we have regulations and the chain of command. As you already know well... your NCOs enable/enforce standards; you're accountable for standards being met. Additionally, most punitive measures are "progressive"... meaning the member has numerous chances to correct their performance. Ideally, your NCOs manage this process... occasionally, you will be afforded the opportunity to contribute via your example, or how you exercise your own authority as platoon leader. Many JOs make the mistake of circumventing their NCOs' authority, which ultimately undermines any efforts on their part to bring a "problem child" up to par. My suggestion would be that you talk with your NCOs... ask their advice; learn what they think is really going on (there's almost always two or more sides to every story), and what they think should be done about it. If those ideas conform to regulations and are directed in a positive direction... support them. If, on the other hand, you sense that a desire to avoid conflict or complication is resulting in tolerance of sub-standard performance... you're every bit within your rights to demand a change. Just make DEAD CERTAIN you earn the buy-in of those NCOs, and let THEM spearhead the effort. If you are one of those relatively few officers finding themselves in the unenviable position of having NCOs who do not support regulations or standards... you're destined for a difficult road. My advice? You rarely put down a "mutiny" from within. Be fair, be consistent, insist on what the Commander (and/or the Army) demands. Always respect their experience and position...even when ensuring they live up to it. Oh... one more thing: Remember that even your NCOs have superiors... as do you.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2020 5:46 PM

2020-07-17T17:46:58-04:00

The easy answer? Never. But it’s like a double sided sword. Never easy to actually continuously do so. The best thing I can tell an NCO seeing a soldier give up is sit down and talk to your soldiers one on one. Understand their side and where they are coming from. Sometimes it’s simply by encouraging them on an off day that can change a lot and sometimes you can’t help them all if they have given up. All you can do is continue to try your best as an NCO and be a good example and listen to your soldiers. Best of luck!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2020 9:00 PM

2020-07-21T21:00:41-04:00

Often leaders attribute the definition of giving up as when a Soldier leaves the service or fails to meet the standard. This is only part of the truth. Not all Soldiers who leave the service have given up, and not all service members have who fail to meet a standard have given up. The definition of giving up carries with it degrees of the lack of hope. When does a Soldier truly give up? When a Soldier believes there is absolutely no hope.

A leader’s duty and responsibility is to provide Hope via options to Soldiers. A leader should never give the impression that hope is lost. By this logic, a leader may say he/she has given up on a Soldier on a single item. However, by definition of the word, the leader cannot completely given up on a Soldier. By definition the leader implies he/she has given up on the total life of the Soldier. Therefore, the term “give up” on a Soldier should never be used.