When do you think officers and enlisted can enter into a personal relationship?

2015-04-08T13:14:19-04:00

This is mainly just a curiosity question on what the military community at large things about officers and enlisted engaging in personal relationships. Feel free to provide any stories that you may have received over your time in the military.

Response by SGT Corey Franks made Apr 8 at 2015 1:23 PM

2015-04-08T13:23:16-04:00

Most of these answers are ok with me. But never in the same unit

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 1:28 PM

2015-04-08T13:28:54-04:00

Unsure if this is from a branch specific point of view or just generalized? I think the Army Regs are spot on concerning fraternization.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-04-08T13:33:27-04:00

It's most appropriate if it's before commissioning/enlistment or after one's service is done, IMHO. I wouldn't go trolling for an enlisted date amongst members of a different branch, but that is less of an evil of the same branch. I think the chain of command one (even if they're different) is a faux pas.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 1:40 PM

2015-04-08T13:40:47-04:00

I suppose you mean dating or courting another person by relationship. Keep in mind that as officers our actions speak very loudly among the ranks. There are certain actions that we can do but should never do as to keep the integrity of the Officer Corps. Dating or courting one is a serious endeavor that can go wrong in so many instances. It is not that you shouldn't but once you commission I would pretty much rule out an enlisted female in the Army. You don't have to but it would best be left alone.

If you were already dating then you are already when you are in our commissioning program you may have to make a decision. First off, you shouldn't break off a relation solely based on your career. It makes for putting your career first too much. But one should realize that the Army doesn't respect those who are dating when it comes to duty stations.

If you are an officer and are entering into a relationship with an enlisted soldier, irregardless of you units, she will be thought to be receiving favor. I guarantee the first time that something goes wrong with her and her unit that LT or CPT that she is dating will show up to make things worse. I am sure the "while my boyfriend/girlfriend is an officer too and they said different" will also come up. It just make for a messy situation that would be better left alone.

Response by BG David Fleming III made Apr 8 at 2015 2:25 PM

2015-04-08T14:25:46-04:00

Fraternization should be discouraged as much as possible. I understand those "rare" incidences where a prior relationship existed, but I still can not condone it. The reg's are very clear on this, No Fraternization between officer and enlisted!!! If you love them, aren't they worth giving up your commission for or getting out completely? If the answer is no, stop it before you get too deep! Just my 2 cents.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 2:27 PM

2015-04-08T14:27:38-04:00

The day after NEVER.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 2:38 PM

2015-04-08T14:38:16-04:00

I'm fine with any of the middle three. If the relationship is prior to the military, or they are not in the same chain of command, or in different services, it shouldn't really matter. That and we are supposed to be professionals, and separate work and home.
Now I know that might not always happen, but the chain of command can handle those cases.

Response by Cadet Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 8:15 AM

2015-04-16T08:15:13-04:00

If you begin a relationship after commissioning, regardless of branch of service, it's technically fraternization. If you choose to build a relationship with someone who isn't in your sphere of command I don't think that is too closely enforced though. I know we have a lot of briefings on the importance of not fraternizing.

Response by PO3 Tanis Huston made Apr 16 at 2015 8:57 AM

2015-04-16T08:57:32-04:00

I personally believe Never is an effective answer then it becomes black and white with no area of grey that can be misinterpreted.

I personally know two individuals that engaged in a relationship as enlisted members. Girl gets pregnant, they get married and he enters the officer program and is now a commissioned officer. She is still enlisted with no plans of getting out and he is an Officer. No good all around. Lower pay grades that don't know their history may think it's ok for them to engage in the same behavior. There are other situations that can become uncomfortable for not only them but those around them if out in public or any command functuon.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 16 at 2015 10:59 AM

2015-04-16T10:59:16-04:00

Actually, In the Army, 600-20 governs the rare instances this is allowable. (They are Rare) I suspect the USN and all other branches have similar regulations. Since it appears you are training to be a Commissioned Officer I would offer that the first thing you need to know if you have a question is what is the standard (regulation, policy etc.). Second, you number one mission as an Officer (before mission accomplishment, taking care of Soldiers (Sailors), and improving your organization), is to model (live) your services values. This is what 600-20 (Army Command Policy) says:

(2) Dating, shared living accommodations other than those directed by operational requirements, and intimate or sexual relationships between officers and enlisted personnel, or NCOs and junior enlisted Soldiers. This prohibition does not apply to the following:

(a) When evidence of fraternization between an officer and enlisted member or an NCO and a junior enlisted Soldier prior to their marriage exists, their marriage does not preclude appropriate command action based on the prior fraternization. Commanders have a wide range of responses available including counseling, reprimand, order to cease, reassignment, administrative action, or adverse action. Commanders must carefully consider all of the facts and circumstances in reaching a disposition that is appropriate. Generally, the commander should take the minimum action necessary to ensure that the needs of good order and discipline are satisfied.

(b) Situations in which a relationship that complies with this policy would move into noncompliance due to a change in status of one of the members (for instance, a case where two junior enlisted members are dating and one is subsequently commissioned or selected to be a WO, commissioned officer, or NCO). In relationships where one of the
enlisted members has entered into a program intended to result in a change in his or her status from enlisted to officer or junior enlisted Soldier to NCO, the couple must terminate the relationship permanently or marry within one year of the date of the appointment or the change in status occurs.

(c) Personal relationships between members of the National Guard or Army Reserve, when the relationship primarily exists due to civilian acquaintanceships, unless the individuals are on AD (other than AT), on FTNGD (other than AT), or serving as a dual status military technician.

(d) Personal relationships between members of the RA and members of the National Guard or Army Reserve when the relationship primarily exists due to civilian association and the RC member is not on AD (other than AT), on FTNGD (other than AT), or serving as a dual status military technician.

(e) Prohibited relationships involving dual status military technicians, which were not prohibited under previously existing rules and regulations, are exempt until 1 March 2015.

(f) Soldiers and leaders share responsibility for ensuring that these personal relationships do not interfere with good order and discipline. Commanders will ensure that personal relationships that exist between Soldiers of different grades emanating from their civilian careers will not influence training, readiness, or personnel actions.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 16 at 2015 11:12 AM

2015-04-16T11:12:26-04:00

1) Pre-existing relationship. As an example. I had an active duty wife in the Band. Later in her Career she could have gone WO. Should she or I have to give up our respective careers? What if I had the opportunity to pursue a commission? Should she have to get out?

2) Different Services. Completely different chain of commands. It's not Frat.

3) Reserve / Active. Reservists are "civilians" most of the time, and trying to apply military logic to civilian relationships doesn't always work.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 11:51 AM

2015-04-16T11:51:51-04:00

In very few cases it is acceptable after the fact, for instance as a Mustang I had friends that were married as enlisted and one became an officer. Otherwise such a relationship should be avoided at all cost.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Apr 16 at 2015 11:57 AM

2015-04-16T11:57:29-04:00

If it's not within the chain of command and it doesn't negatively affect mission, morale, or best interest, it shouldn't be a big deal. I have a very liberal mindset when it comes to social issues from within the military, ultimately I am all about the mission. Mission comes first before anything else, this be in corporate, or military life. If a relationship jeopardizes the mission in anyway, it needs to end.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made Apr 16 at 2015 1:50 PM

2015-04-16T13:50:56-04:00

Just don't do it. At worst, you get nailed by someone who has a very strict view of things. At best, you limit the officer's career by making it impossible for one of you to ever fall under the command of the other. As they climb the ranks, that will be harder and harder to avoid.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 16 at 2015 2:15 PM

2015-04-16T14:15:58-04:00

Pre-existing relationship only. And then make sure you stay out of eachother's chains of command.

I'll re-post a related answer I've made on this thread:
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/fraternization-and-the-reserves-where-is-the-line

Fraternization policies are intended to improve combat efficacy, they must be obeyed in view of their extreme and ultimate possible consequences. Could your relationship with an individual alter your choice to risk his or her life compared to a peer? Then that relationship is wrong.

When it comes to the National Guard I like to ask: "What would Captain Isaac Davis do?"

Hint: (Real Quote) "I have not a man that is afraid to go." Followed by his own death leading his company advancing on the bridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Davis_(soldier)

Fraternization and the Reserves - Where is the line? | RallyPoint

This question may very well apply to Active Duty as well, as it leads to some larger ones of, "What actually constitutes fraternization / what is the intent?"However, I address the larger issue to the Reserve components. When a Reserve Servicemember is only "on duty" one weekend a month, can you expect the same fraternization policies? More specifically, what if two people share a civilian work relationship, but also a military reservist one?...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 2:24 PM

2015-04-16T14:24:07-04:00

There are some very sticky situations. On active duty it should be restricted to prior relationships.

Reserve side gets blurry, but should NEVER compromise the integrity of chain of command or give the appearance of potential favoritism. I recently learned of a situation where two Soldiers that were dating took an APFT, one as the grader for the other. Situations like this are inexcusable, and can be very damaging to morale and the integrity of the entire command. The fact that neither party fixed the situation is astounding to me....but fortunately things were put into place to ensure that this situation does not happen again.

I strongly advise against it, but I do remember that as a token LT when we mobilized, I had 2 options: Sit on my own and not talk to anyone, since everyone commissioned was either in a position of positional superiority (PAs, OICs, etc), or had brought their families and had zero interest in socializing within the unit. My second option was to become a hermit for a year and avoid talking to anyone. So....I simply was very careful. I chose my friends carefully and made sure that they understood that this was "Jon" vs. "LT Butler", and that I would not hesitate to do the right thing when on orders, despite our personal relationships.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by Sgt Cody Dumont made Apr 16 at 2015 2:37 PM

2015-04-16T14:37:46-04:00

When one of them is no longer in the service.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Apr 16 at 2015 7:15 PM

2015-04-16T19:15:00-04:00

My opinion: Anytime.

Correct Answer: When they knew each other prior to either the commission, enlistment or both. Examples would be two who were both enlisted and one commissioned, or they knew each other prior to one or both joining the military in the first place such as high school classmates. Also the two members shouldn't be in the same command however this could possibly happen.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 3:28 AM

2015-04-17T03:28:29-04:00

Personally I find nothing wrong with it as long as the two people involved are not in one another's chain of command. I think that by limiting a soldiers choice it can cause issues of hiding the relationship until it is to late and one or both soldiers involved get in trouble.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Apr 17 at 2015 5:48 AM

2015-04-17T05:48:01-04:00

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member , this is how I see your question and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. You appear to be a very young Midshipman, probably 19/20 years old. As a very young adult you are not in control of your hormones.

I'm guessing from the way your question is worded, plus my experience of having served in the Navy for 20 years, is that you are possibly interested in pursuing a "personal" relationship with an enlisted service member.

My advice? Don't do it, it's really not worth the consequences, especially with your being so young.

Here's an example. The Navigation Officer (LTjg), a male, and a female QMSN, already had a professional relationship as he was the Division Officer.

These 2 decided to hell with regulations and entered into a personal, sexual relationship. They were living together and even took leave together to go meet her family. We were at a small command (less than 300 people) so word got out pretty fast.

Both members got admin separations from the Navy and also spent some time on restriction with loss of pay. The female also lost some rank.

If I totally misunderstood your question I apologize in advance. Just trust me when I say it isn't worth it except in those rare circumstances where there was a pre-existing relationship. I.e., dual enlisted married couple and one spouse gets a commission (which I've seen many times). More rarely (and I've seen this a couple of times as well), a commissioned officer is married to a civilian to later decides to enlist in the Navy.

Yet another example is if there is a family relationship. I have a cousin who is a Major in the Army. Granted, different branches so our paths never crossed, but still. When I spoke to my cousin on the phone or saw him at family functions, you can rest assured neither of us observed "military protocol" and addressed each other by our first names.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 10:08 AM

2015-04-30T10:08:12-04:00

I thought they were not allowed to date each other anymore.

Response by SSG Dylan Tyahla made Jan 20 at 2016 3:29 AM

2016-01-20T03:29:37-05:00

Personally I served over 10 year and I know of some cases. I steered clear but being out now I think the military has no right to tell you who to love. I understand why this was put in place. But I belief as long as it if outside the chain of command it should be allowed.
It reminds of dual military couples living together while deployed. What some said was unfair; of the fact a new Pvt can come into unit with wife and get housing while a 6 year SPC is still stuck in barracks. The military is family friendly if you have one not if you are trying to make one.
The military is different lifestyle but it over steps a lot of the time if anything it should protect the freedoms of of the men and women serving not infringe on them.