When given rights by an E-5, can an E-4 (not promotable) give corrective training (aka. smoke) to another E-4?

2020-09-16T09:16:26-04:00

I've seen where an E-4 (not promotable yet) give a corrective training(aks. smoke) another E-4 (also not promotable yet) for over 30 minutes saying they were given a right by an E-5 to do so for them.
I was wondering if that is within a regulation

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 16 at 2020 9:43 AM

2020-09-16T09:43:36-04:00

If the first SPC is in a designated Leadership position, then by general military authority, yes that SPC can assign corrective training to another SPC. Giving a Counseling statement and assigning a corrective action such as an essay, sure. However, my concern is that if the first SPC is NOT in a leadership position, then being delegated by a SGT to conduct a smoke session has a hinky feel to it. So many questions run thru my head on this one.

Response by SGT Chris Stephens made Sep 16 at 2020 10:25 AM

2020-09-16T10:25:34-04:00

That E-4 must be in a leadership position to do so. A smoke session is considered corrective training, so if that E-4 is not in a leadership position, the E-5 must conduct the corrective training. If it doesn't fit their schedule, then they need to find another time where it does fit their schedule.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 16 at 2020 11:39 AM

2020-09-16T11:39:29-04:00

Given a right? What does that even mean? Do you mean a NCO delegated a junior enlisted to perform a corrective training action?

This is what AR 600-20 states about military authority using exercise as corrective training:
4–6. Exercising military authority
(1) The training or instruction given to a Soldier to correct deficiencies must be appropriately tailored to curing the deficiency. It must be oriented to improving the Soldier’s performance in their problem area. Brief physical exercises are an acceptable form of corrective training for minor acts of indiscipline (for example, requiring the Soldier to do push-ups for arriving late to formation), so long as it does not violate the Army’s policies prohibiting hazing, bullying, and unlawful punishment.

If that SPC is not in any type of leadership position, I'd probably have just ignored them if I was the other SPC they were "smoking." I'd probably go tell the PSG that he/she has a lazy NCO that doesn't want to do his or her job. 30 min smoke session seem to violate that - especially if it had nothing to do with the action needing corrected.

There's not enough information presented to really give a great answer but that NCO sounds like they're lazy - and "smoking" soldiers really isn't allowed anymore.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Sep 16 at 2020 3:40 PM

2020-09-16T15:40:08-04:00

WTF??? 30 minute smoke session from one E4 to another???? It would never happen in the Corps. If you make someone do push ups, you do it with them. At least that was the way is was in my day.

I'm not sure of the regs, but incentive training, smoke sessions or whatever it is being called is rarely an effective method of training. Rethink your methodology. Train them to be a good soldier by setting the example. If the soldier is deficient, train them specifically on that deficiency. Otherwise you are just getting them stronger for the day they decide to break your jaw.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 16 at 2020 4:28 PM

2020-09-16T16:28:26-04:00

Authority comes from two places: Rank and Position. This is tough, but if your E-5 left you in charge, then yes you can tell SPC Snuffy to complete a task., can you go out there and just burn them for the hell of it, you can do it once, but I doubt you will ever get a chance to do it twice. Between the unit leadership, the IG, and anyone else who will hear Snuffy's complaint, you will answer for it. For me only, I am not big on the Army returning to push ups for admin infractions, that's me. I prefer the punishment fits the crime. I.e. Snuffy shows up late, push ups will not correct that habbit, but having Snuffy come in with all his uniforms and showing up at the Duty NCO's desk every 30 minutes (When you have the Duty that night) in a different uniform till 2300, can have an impact. That is the type of corrective action your chain of command can get behind you on....at least when I was an E-6.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2020 8:14 AM

2020-09-17T08:14:08-04:00

AR 600-20, that's all I'm going to say. As an E-4 or below you have to start doing your homework so you can protect yourself from NCOs who may abuse there power in situations like this. Don't know all the facts but just giving you a brief answer.