When, if ever, it is okay to haze or prank new sailors, airmen, marines, or soldiers?

2021-06-29T15:23:08-04:00

What are some pranks you've seen? When does it go too far?

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jun 29 at 2021 3:33 PM

2021-06-29T15:33:23-04:00

SSG Carlos Madden The Picture is a Little Deceiving, It is Not New Sailors but Pollywogs becoming Shellbacks. Crossing the Equator in a Ship, No Matter what Navy, A Tradition. Is It "Hazing" Most Definitely, Is It Carried too Far, To Extremes Sometimes I'm sure it Happens. I will say I was not Beaten with a Shillaly (Whip Made with Cut Piece of Fire Hose) which Happened to Others Before Me Years Before. Yeah I was a Pollywog Until My Last Year. You Bet My Subordinates had a Great Deal of Fun Making Me a Shellback.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2021 4:00 PM

2021-06-29T16:00:08-04:00

With moderation, it's a grasp of the old traditions. A reasonable person knows where to draw the line, and respects it.

Response by SFC Marc W. made Jun 29 at 2021 5:38 PM

2021-06-29T17:38:25-04:00

There's actually studies that show hazing is a good thing. Before an idiot comments: obviously it has to be within reason, a wood mallet to the chest is not within reason. However when hazing is done constructively, it makes the new person or people feel like they have actually been accepted into the group and without gritted teeth. That leads to more cohesive groups. The study I saw way back was specifically aimed at the civilian business sector, but the principles apply to any group.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2021 5:57 PM

2021-06-29T17:57:23-04:00

When is it not? To answer that I will say when it breaks over a group consensus (usually unspoken agreement) of what is acceptable and what is not. How has the tradition been observed in the past? What were their roots?

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Jun 29 at 2021 7:54 PM

2021-06-29T19:54:40-04:00

It's always fine when it's safe and in fun. I stopped one once when I saw idiots tying ropes around guys necks.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Jun 29 at 2021 8:22 PM

2021-06-29T20:22:18-04:00

Yes and no. Sorry. There is a line and it needs to be respected. Up to that line, it should be okay. Over the line, not so much. Unfortunately, there are too many who think they can move the line.

There is one prank that is a good example of what might be allowable. Onboard a ship, a newly assigned sailor is asked to go see one person, for a particular reason. The reason is the prank (it's not a real reason). The person to whom the sailor was sent then sends the sailor to another person, for another reason (again, kind of fake). The purpose of this is to get the new sailor used to navigating the ship and getting to know who is who on the ship, and where this person can be found. In the end, the sailor gains familiarity with the ship and some if its crew.

Some of the "Equator Crossing" rituals might be examples of crossing the line. In the picture above, we see Sailors subjecting another sailor to this ritual. If it is very mild, it might be within bounds. However, if this ritual requires any demeaning acts by the "new" sailor then it might not be so much.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jun 30 at 2021 7:33 AM

2021-06-30T07:33:37-04:00

In my understanding, there is a VERY large difference between pranking and hazing.

Pranks are good-natured in intent, and are "equal opportunity," meaning that if I prank you, I should expect you to prank me back. Most pranks can also be "defeated" with proper attention to detail and/or cunning. (As a young PV2 RTO, my squad leader told me to ask the PSG for a PRC-E 7 (pronounced prick e-7, for those who don't know) ; I complied. I went to the PSG and told him that I was looking for a PRC-E 7, and my squad leader said the PSG would be a good place to check. My PSG laughed his butt off and told me to go send him my squad leader.) If the pranked Soldier laughs afterwards, or even DURING, there is a good chance it is a prank.

Hazing is demeaning in intent, and are "one way," meaning that there is always a defined hazer / hazing group and hazee / hazed group (even if that hazee "earns the right" to haze others in the future, (s)he will not be hazing the hazer). Hazing cannot be "defeated" it can only be complied with or refused (often with repercussions, even if the repercussions aren't official). If the hazed Soldier is not laughing, but rather ENDURING, there is a good chance it is hazing.

Is it OK to prank new Soldiers/squids/zoomies/coasties/marines/guardians of the galaxy? Absolutely, as long as it doesn't interfere with the mission. Collecting exhaust samples and checking for soft spots in the armor are rights of passage that no one I have ever met was offended by.

Is it OK to haze new Soldiers/squids/marines/zoomies/coasties/guradians of the galaxy? Never. Never ever. Never ever ever.

It goes too far, in my book, when it crosses the line from fun/funny to taxing, demeaning, or dangerous. If you send a Soldier to collect exhaust samples with a ziploc bag, it is funny. If you send a Soldier to collect exhaust samples with their mouth, it is demeaning and dangerous. If you send them for exhaust samples every single week, it is taxing and demeaning. If you send them for exhaust samples and they say "yeah, hah ha. Not falling for it" and you proceed to smoke them for failing to obey, it is demeaning. Etc.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jun 30 at 2021 10:43 AM

2021-06-30T10:43:50-04:00

I was never on a ship, but other guys in my unit were and they were proud to be Shellbacks.

But I never saw anyone hazed or abused, we got blood wings but that was strictly voluntary, if you said no it was no. 1st Sgt pinned our stripes on but that’s not much of a big deal either, hurt for a few minutes though.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Jul 1 at 2021 1:40 PM

2021-07-01T13:40:40-04:00

There is one prank that was portrayed in fiction that I liked. On MASH, Dr. "Hawkeye" Pierce is girding himself for being pranked on April Fools Day. He observes many of his colleagues being pranked, and starts to make preparations against anything pulled on him. In the end, his preparations are so ridiculous that we are laughing, but no prank is pulled on him. Turns out, that was the prank; no prank. He was led to believe (because he wanted to) that pranks were being played on everybody else, but that was the prank. There were no pranks. Everybody was in on it. The prank was letting Hawkeye believe that he was going to be pranked, and then not pranking him. It was brilliant!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2021 11:18 AM

2021-07-02T11:18:19-04:00

I feel that the word "hazing" has been highlighted to cover to many things these days. In my opinion a high percentage of young marines and other services neve become a tad weak minded and always go right to defining anything they dislike or get embarrassed by as hazing. Hazing to me would be something that is usually a physical act to demean another person or hurt. To make them feel beneath you. Pranks on the other hand are in good fun and can bring some relaxed time in a job that is full of stress. Can the pranks go to far? Yes they can but I wouldn't consider them hazing, but people outside the military would and these days alot of leadership would. In my eyes there's because everyone is to afraid to say what they feel and only say what will save their own ass. Right now in society it's a career killer if you go against this new left normal of participation trophy logic, so leaders are targeting everything as hazing if it gets reported as such.

I have witnessed marines being taped up a chair and hoisted up on a boom lift in a shop, left there for some time. That was in good fun. On the other hand I know marines while I'm school in Pensacola duct taped their roommate to his bed for 8 hrs, they did it for revenge for him ratting them out for being out after curfew, that's hazing.
I have cargo strapped a marine in a hell fire missile container, but it was all jokes around. No injuries and we all laughed about it.

Unfortunately young military members know how to play the game good now. They will go along with it until they get upset then they go and complain. Saw it happen while I was in many times.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2021 6:23 PM

2021-07-08T18:23:44-04:00

Unfortunately, this is a real gray area and comes down to one thing. Did the recipient feel degraded, embarrassed, or demeaned? If not, you are probably ok. The best personal example I could give is the following; I had a Marine recieve a Dirty Santa gift of the movie Broke Back Mountain around 2007. This Marine immediately started laughing uncontrollably. Just a prank. However, in 2012, another Marine recieved a similar DVD at a Christmas Party and immediately requested to speak with the SgtMaj and CO. The act was considered hazing and the Marine that bought the gift was punished. I hope this helps.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2021 5:05 AM

2021-07-10T05:05:09-04:00

There are a multitude of techniques to optimize the operational and work environment for today's service members. Pranking and hazing are not on the list. The Operator Community will continue to execute what is tested and proven in their field. The support MOS communities can integrate better solutions than pranking and hazing to indoctrinate the arriving team members. There simply is not enough time to play stupid games when you are expected and relied upon to become operationally relevant and efficient in six months to a year within a three to four year tour of duty at each command location. Four year tours are not commonplace as many can attest to. Each leader can reference the senior staff and literature if necessary. The use of your imagination to generate tailored battle drills, etc. in complement of existing training and readiness evolutions is just one example. Use your imagination to create something relevant and menaningful in lieu of acting like a college student. Expect more of yourself and those around you. The American citizen and taxpayer expects more and a better use of your time and efforts. Do more, dream bigger and be better -

Semper Fi to our Marines -

Respectfully,
Richard G. Pinner GySgt/USMC (ret)

Response by SGT Aaron Atwood made Sep 24 at 2021 11:21 AM

2021-09-24T11:21:32-04:00

Two things happened to me that by today's standards would absolutely be considered as hazing.

1) Getting my rank "patted" by everyone who congratulated me after my promotion ceremony to Corporal in 2007.

2) On my first duty day I received a call from "General Mills" asking for x-amount of Flight Line, and went around the unit trying to find some while looking like a complete idiot.

Now for the million dollar question: did I think of either instance as hazing? Back then: nope, not at all. It was a normal part of life as far as I was concerned, and the promotion but really made me feel like I belonged. I also had previously read in a Navy SEAL book that you knew you were liked by your unit if the individuals pulled silly pranks on you.

Response by SPC Roger Dunn made Jun 30 at 2022 4:04 PM

2022-06-30T16:04:13-04:00

I know as a combat engineer anytime we would get a new pvt to the unit we would always send him to get white degreaser from the motor poll and get a 2x4 stretcher...when done to me i sent 3 days finding all the good places on post...