When is Dishonesty and Deception acceptable?

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:58:28 -0500

A recent U.S. Army War College study states "dishonesty and deception" among Army personnel is common, often encouraged to maintain a false sense of integrity.

Under what circumstances is it acceptable to be dishonest or deceive your superiors while in uniform? Have you ever done this, or seen others do it?

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/02/20/study-soldiers-of-all-ranks-engage-in-dishonesty-and-deception.html?ESRC=eb.nl

Study: Soldiers of All Ranks Engage in 'Dishonesty and Deception'

An Army War College study says "dishonesty and deception" among is often encouraged to maintain a false sense of integrity.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 8:47 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 20:47:37 -0500

I don't think it's ever permissible to be dishonest with one's superiors. That's just plain wrong. Be what you are with your colleagues and your superiors. Do your best. If that's not good enough, then so be it. Do not resort to deception and dishonesty.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 11:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 23:49:37 -0500

it's never acceptable, in my opinion. But it happens all too often with scammers because they have lost or never had the sense of honor. I would feel miserable if I started scamming. Every opportunity that I had to scam out of a duty/event/training I thought about it, but I knew if I did it I would fall into the same category as the scammers and I wouldn't want how to feel or be categorized as such.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Feb 20 at 2015 11:50 PM

SSG Leonard Johnson — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 23:50:00 -0500

I think we all have at one time or another....giggles....heck...if I been promoted as much as I been demoted.....I be CSM of the Universe.....Man....the 80's were fun.

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Feb 21 at 2015 12:38 AM

SPC Stewart Smith — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 00:38:06 -0500

This poll says 'superiors'. Why doesn't it say 'seniors'?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2015 3:55 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 03:55:07 -0500

I posted the actual study here on RP. The media has gotten a hold of it and put their spin on, making it look like all our officers are blatant liars. I would encourage everyone to read the study (executive summary is shorter) and then ask yourself if our officers or seniors are actually lying?

Example: Unit is getting ready to deploy and brigade tells you two things need to get done.

1. Online TARP training

2. Weapons qualification

Let's say there is only time for you to accomplish one of those to standard. Which one do you pick? Which one is more important?

I would probably prioritize and ensure my unit was 100% qualified on their assigned weapons. If asked from higher I would tell them we were good to go on TARP.

That was a quick generic example but it's the kind of things the article talks about. The article calls it "ethical fading", read the executive summary and form your own opinions but I can see where the officers are coming from.

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=1250

Lying to Ourselves: Dishonesty in the Army Profession

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Response by SMSgt Gary Calhoun made Feb 21 at 2015 8:49 AM

SMSgt Gary Calhoun — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 08:49:29 -0500

BLUF: Dishonesty and deception are never acceptable.

CSM Jim Dula – my personal experience is that it happens most often at staff level (MACOM and higher) to pacify the GOs, congressional inquiries, etc. Your analogy of “the emperor has no clothes” is spot on.

At unit level, I’ve usually observed it in weak people trying to get by. If a troop is proficient in their MOS or AFSC, they can respectfully speak honestly without significant risk.

The careerism that was observed in the commissioned ranks from the Vietnam era onward has now become a cancer in the NCO ranks as well. This has laid the groundwork for inflation in performance reports, “thanks for playing” medals for substandard downrange service and brutal competition for those “station of the cross” schools and special duty assignments. I saw one SNCO crying because they failed to receive distinguished graduate at SNCO Academy; they believed that they were now noncompetitive for Command Chief positions in the future should they be otherwise eligible.

MAJ Carl Ballinger – I’m sorry to disappoint you Sir, but I found that the civilian sector is as bad – if not more so – than the military. Civilians are focused on corporate profits and short term goals; the military arguably has more altruistic goals.

When the focus is turned inward, team objectives suffer. Samuel Johnson, an 18th century English writer once said “Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful.”

Response by CSM David Heidke made Feb 21 at 2015 12:16 PM

CSM David Heidke — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 12:16:17 -0500

I commented somewhere else, but I think it got closed out as being a duplicate. But it bears repeating.

CSM Private RallyPoint Member made the case that your unit is deploying and you have two things to do and only time to do one... I make the case that your unit is deploying, they give you 5 things to do and you only have time for 1, now what? Or you're a Reserve transportation unit and you have 37 days to train, and the Pentagon gives you 180 days of mandatory training that has absolutely nothing to do with driving a truck. On top of that you have two weapons qualifications you are required to hold and two APFTs... So what gives?

The real issue here is, when do you tell the emperor he has no clothes? There is a culture in the Officer corps to never say no to a General. I have met a few courageous ones who have told them this is just too much.

So Officers have a habit of being creative in responding to outrageous training requirements. Surprise?!

Soldiers in the Reserves are dropping out in droves because they are sick of having to sit in classrooms watching powerpoint classes instead of training to do the jobs they enlisted for.

Response by 1SG Charles Hunter made Apr 26 at 2015 1:21 PM

1SG Charles Hunter — Sun, 26 Apr 2015 13:21:35 -0400

Dishonesty and deception is warranted in combat against an armed enemy. That's the only circumstance where I can justify it.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 26 at 2015 2:09 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 26 Apr 2015 14:09:28 -0400

We need honesty and integrity to be pure and it takes moral courage. Without honesty and integrity we become a corrupt organization.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Apr 26 at 2015 9:15 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Sun, 26 Apr 2015 21:15:10 -0400

CSM Jim Dula, I have always thought that the West Point and other service academy's Honor code is meant to permeate and influence the US Military's standards of Ethics?

What is going on? "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do"

That is only a guideline for service at West Point?

I will never forget a Colonel telling me that he would never be a general; that a previous Div CG had ruined the careers of every O-6 in his command w/ negative OERs because the division had not performed as desired in a FTX or ?

Regretfully, some of the officer corps should be treated aspoliticians and unhorsed!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2015 11:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Apr 2015 23:57:36 -0400

The annual / semi / Quarterly training we are mandated to do detracts from the training troops really need. If I had flubbed the 350-1 numbers in 07, I could have spent more time training dismounted patrols in preparation for the surge. Never in a million years did I expect a signal company to be used as infantry but it happened. We were lucky and did not get hit but my Soldiers were not prepared for it if we were. I will never make the same mistake again.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 27 at 2015 12:14 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 00:14:13 -0400

Dishonesty is a fundamental part of human behavior... Even infants practice deception before they can talk..

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 1:00 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 01:00:23 -0400

I read an article titled something along the lines of "Beating the admin crunch" awhile back. In there it mentioned that if a Reserve Component unit was to do all of the administrative taskings, briefings, etc to standard they would need more training time than the allotted 39 days in each fiscal year. There's simply not enough time to do it all, let alone train to do our actual jobs.

I'm not in any way condoning dishonesty. However, I've had senior commanders tell me to "check the block" on more than one occasion in my career. Like CSM Oldsen mentioned, there's been times where I've had to decide between something essential like weapons or medical training and the latest shiny object from higher. In the Officer world we call it "accepting risk." Even how we build our Mission Essential Task List encourages this behavior. We put more on the METL than we can actually accomplish. How can a task be "essential" and be something we accept risk on?

I think we need to take a good hard look at the amount of requirements we're putting on units. The USMC is working on lessening a lot of the admin requirements that bog down units. The Army would do well to follow suit.