When is it acceptable to take away from the family?

2016-03-18T23:49:48-04:00

Service Members,

I am saying this with a humble heart because I have a high respect for every service member that served befiore me, regardless of rank or position.
I left recruiting duty in June of 2012 and reported to Ft Campbell on July of 2012 to become a squad leader. I have loved the job since I have taken my position. When I first arrived, my 82nd mentality kickjed over what I remembered from 3 years prior, but there were a lot of changes during the time I was on recruiting duty.
Obviously a single Soldier will not have time taken away from a family as a married Soldier will, therefore we fall into the argument.
I aask this question as an ope argument, when does it seem "justified" to take time awy from the family because of training and tasks. I ask this because I've noticed that a majority of posts or responses are made by E-6 or below and I can assume that a majority of the NCO's o=in the Army now want to retire and become a leader to forms the unit into what the Army wants. Myself, the family is #1 and the Army is #2, that changed when I had nmy first child, regardless of what my DS taught me, saying that the Army is #1, and family is #2.
In a long term of my career I noticed that I did not make good decisions in my first 4 years; I didn't go to college, I didn't take correspondence courses, and I didn't study for any board. In the Army now, it is important to do all of thesed things, becasuse the regulations state it.
I would have all of my Soldiers completing a college class online now but I found it impossible to perform myself.
When can we get Soldiers to perform the tasks needed by the Army, such as college or boards if we are constantly being run dry by details and useless training?

Response by MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2016 11:51 PM

2016-03-18T23:51:33-04:00

I don't understand the question can you please elaborate a little more please.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Mar 19 at 2016 12:50 AM

2016-03-19T00:50:47-04:00

You will find these same pressures in civilian life if you want to get ahead in your career. If your career comes first your family will suffer; if your family comes first your career will suffer. The choice is yours.

The difference between the military and civilian life is that as a civilian you can quit your job at any time and find another one if your current job doesn't suit you - but you should have the next job already lined up before you do that. The family that comes first for you still needs for you to provide for them, and you cannot do that without a job.

If there is a way to have a good career while you put your family first I have never seen it in my 72 years. Good luck in whatever choice you make.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Parker, DBA made Mar 19 at 2016 8:37 AM

2016-03-19T08:37:06-04:00

It's interesting that you bring this question up. This is a universal battle in all sectors of life (civilian or military). Here are my thoughts based on having been a squadron and group commander in the Air Force, and being in the private sector:
1) There are two things you don't want to mess with if you want your troops/employees to support you - their money and their family (I have a military story on this if you want to hear it later)
2) There are those in the military and private sector who will want you to sacrifice family for the job, although they tend to personally benefit off your sacrifice (particularly true in the private sector - too many career climbers)
3) In the end of your career (or life) I suspect you won't say to yourself "I should have gone to work more." Rather, you will probably say "I should have spent more time with my kids/spouse/family"
4) In the military, there will be times when you have to disrupt someone's family because duty calls - that is just the nature of the beast. But, as long as they understand their obligation, it will be okay.
5) What we all do in life is not because of the job, it's generally for others like our family. The job is a means to have a fulfilling life, not an end in itself.

Just my humble opinion.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 19 at 2016 12:40 PM

2016-03-19T12:40:31-04:00

As a company commander I was always fair with the pain and the rewards. The NCOs and I agreed if the operations are sufficiently adroit in operations to send some soldiers to school during the day, then so be it. When I was a Finance Commander and we had only one person working the counter because of details, I spoke my piece to the apathetic Brigade Commander. To show solidarity with my soldiers, I did gate guard duty with them, mow grass, and funeral details OIC. I then went to the post commander to tell him a large chunk of the BASOPS was operationally ineffective do to constantly large details. If you don't try you wont succeed.

If we were done will all our customers finance inputs and inquiries for the day, we would release the soldiers and possibly whole sections.

Response by SSgt Thomas Scott made Mar 22 at 2016 10:20 AM

2016-03-22T10:20:45-04:00

Married people get more allowances, more weight when reassigned, the only reason for pediatric doctors in the military, and travel allowances for dependents. Then you want more time with your family? Do you think the single person likes to go to training? If you don't like being away from your family just don't reenlist.

Response by SPC Nancy Claiborne made Mar 22 at 2016 10:35 AM

2016-03-22T10:35:11-04:00

Unless you are an E-7 or above, I have found by experience, unless the Squad leader or above will allow time off for personal training for College.. You REALLY can't! Get out use Post 911 to go to school then come back or move on to something else. This has been my experience.
NC

Response by CW3 Stephen Mills made Mar 22 at 2016 10:41 AM

2016-03-22T10:41:26-04:00

God, Family, Country. Its the organization that needs to prioritize the time it has between training, administration and the mission, not the soldier. Single soldier or family soldier it makes no difference. Single soldiers shouldn't have to work harder to make up for family time. Its no different than the non smokers having to do the smokers work while they are taking a smoke break every fifteen minutes. Its just not right or fair.

Before I retired I would see this time and time again. It started with my first duty station and was still going on 25 years later. The command would need something and some hard charging soldier would step up and sacrifice his own time to get the mission done. He/she would do this time and time again going way beyond what he was required to do, and what others did. Then one day for whatever reason the soldier would no longer be able to constantly make this extraordinary effort or sacrifice and suddenly, even though the soldier was now doing the same work everybody else had been doing he was thought of as a slug and would receive unfavorable treatment.

The soldier was blamed for not being able to step up anymore. The first time I saw this I was a PVT at Ft Riley. The Hero of the unit got a permanent leg injury at Ranger training and was no longer able to charge as hard as he could before. Suddenly he was a slug. If it was obvious to me as a brand new PVT why wasn't it so obvious to the leadership. Nothing ever changed. For 25 years the soldiers would volunteer to clean the windows for free, then when suddenly the soldiers could no longer clean the windows for free instead of saying thank you for cleaning the windows for free for all these years the soldier would be treated badly for no longer cleaning the windows for free.

This is a considerable leadership failure whether in the military or civilian world.

So to sum it all up, its never acceptable to take family time from a soldier. Sometimes it might be required, but its never acceptable and it shows a lack of prioritization and/or prior planning on the part of the leadership to have prevented it.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 10:50 AM

2016-03-22T10:50:21-04:00

I guess I see things differently, maybe from spending too long at sea. The taxpayers don't pay us to raise families and take college courses. They pay us to defend the nation. Ships deploy for 6-9 months, plus the workup cycle leading up to the deployment. If your ship...and your people...are not ready to go then you've failed the nation that you swore an oath to. You've also failed your people because you are bringing them into harm's way not ready to fight. A good commander will always see about the welfare of their Sailors or troops because it's the right thing to do and part of being a leader, but ultimately we volunteered to serve our nation's defense. If we can't do so in good conscience then it's time to leave.

Response by SPC Nancy Claiborne made Mar 22 at 2016 10:51 AM

2016-03-22T10:51:30-04:00

I think that when one duty nessitates more over the other. Unfortunately, the Army side of this many times dominates more than the other. Really, it is a juggling act so to speak.
Just my thoughts,
NC

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 11:32 AM

2016-03-22T11:32:20-04:00

How did you not understand that when you joined the military? The more important question is why did you get married or join the military if you couldn't handle it? I joined the military at 27 and now I'm 32. Married with a kid. I have a wife who understands that I have BS training sometimes and that I get deployed. Is this just a forum of cry babies and instigators? Man up. Jesus. Get out if it bothers you. Plenty of men, and women, will be happy to take your job. And to answer your question, when Uncle Sam is done with you. I received my degree before I joined and put time in then. You were recruiting, you could have worked on your classes as a recruiter. Get out, use you GI Bill, go to school. Or stay in, make time, and realize that no one is making you do anything that they haven't done

Response by SFC Gary Wysocki made Mar 22 at 2016 12:08 PM

2016-03-22T12:08:58-04:00

I retired in1987 as an SFC. I was single my entire career of 20 years. Many of my assignments as an NCO (E6 and E7) were as barracks sergeant or in some other barracks leadership capacity. Those days were before the Modern Volunteer Army and after it became the MVA. Our constant gripe was that the married members could go home to the wife and kids and we had to stay and clean the barracks or work place for the IG or other meaningless (to us) inspection. The real ass-kicker was that the married guys and gals would have to drag their TA-50 into the barracks on a weekend and display it for the inspection on Monday. Back then I got it that we had to provide a uniform appearance and look STRAC. But those days are gone now. I haven't been on an Army post since I retired in 1987. I would like to go back to a basic training or AIT company and see what the difference is today. To my mind, the leaser is responsible for the soldier wanting to present a good appearance in his unit and uniform. Occasionally, I will see a solider, male or female, in fatigues in public. I gives me pause to see it. My generation of soldier was prohibited from wearing fatigues in public unless we were going to or from work. But today I see them differently. The fatigue uniform is their business clothing. These soldiers are sharp looking and proud of who they are, as we should be. They represent our fighting force to the world. Our enemies see pictures of them in transit and should know that this is the uniform that is coming at them. I may have strayed from the original point of this reply, but make no mistake, I get it and a lot of your leaders today get it. Blind obedience is not necessary and I hope it is not expected. To my brothers and sisters in arms of today and past, carry on our traditions of leadership, pride and courage, no matter your role in this battle, we are with you and will always be.

Response by SSG Donald Mceuen made Mar 22 at 2016 12:29 PM

2016-03-22T12:29:42-04:00

If training or in barrickes then ok but when times are hard sometimes you have to suck it up..

Response by CW4 Abdulaziz Bulling made Mar 22 at 2016 1:21 PM

2016-03-22T13:21:38-04:00

I have to say that there is a precarious balance that a soldier must make in their duty to the Army and family. I married my wife after I joined the Army and always said that I married the Army first. One of my responsibilities to my family was and is to provide the financial support to care for their needs, and to provide my wife the coping skills and delegate the tasks she would need to manage the family in my absence. Because of the nature of our work in the Army we live and breathe succession management and that should extend also to our family life as well. I don’t believe that the civilian sector pays as much attention to this as they should and their family members are therefore not always well prepared in the event of emergencies or tragedies. Even now I keep a book up-to-date that contains instructions in the event of my demise; how many death certificates to get, claim forms for insurance policies, procedures for contacting SSA, phone number to casualty assistance, logins and passwords to accounts and social media. Just because I always put the Army first did and does not mean my family does not have rights on me. Have a great career and best of luck balancing your duties.

Response by CSM Troy McGilvray made Mar 22 at 2016 2:50 PM

2016-03-22T14:50:20-04:00

God, Family, Country.....in that order. God should always be first. There are times when one's duty to the country takes precedence, times when family takes precedence. As to schools, other than military schools, a soldier should do that on his/her own time. I earned a college degree (it took many years) by taking classes while I worked and served our country. A person can accomplish a lot today, what with all the work you can do over the Internet you can attain your goals. It can be done but it takes self motivation. If you are going to succeed, in civilian or military life, you HAVE to do it. Good luck and God Bless!

Response by SFC David Davenport made Mar 22 at 2016 3:49 PM

2016-03-22T15:49:19-04:00

The NCO creed states -"My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind—accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers." While they are equal they are listed in order of importance. Details happen and you will always have to deal with them both as a Leader and the doer of the detail. If the training is useless you have an obligation to fix that SSG. Time management sounds like an area you are still working on in some ways. It will always be a challenge. Worse the higher you rise in rank the less "free time" you will have typically. My suggestion is to go to your NCOIC and discuss your concerns and challenges and ask for guidance. There are way to many variables between units to give you any blanket answers to solve your challenges.

Response by A1C Lisa Casserly made Mar 22 at 2016 5:08 PM

2016-03-22T17:08:32-04:00

Well, first off, remember what you agreed to when you signed up for the military. That you basically signed an indentured servitude contract, you agreed to put them first. They tell us over and over again that Air Force (Army, insert your branch here!) needs come FIRST. And, if they wanted you to have a family, they would have issued you one. While that sounds cold, remember that you could have gotten out after your first contract. The old line of thought in the Air Force back in the day was that you could complain your head off in your first term; But once you reenlist, your right to complain is OVER.

Now, that being said, I hear your pain; Your kids are only young once and of course you want to spend time with them. And, of course the military does try to be understanding of this. But not everyone can have everything all the time!

Second! No training is wasted. I know it seems stupid to do some of these things over and over and over again; You think you know the drill, etc. And that is TRUE. But, their goal is to drill this lesson into you over and over again until you can do it without thought. YOUR LIFE MAY DEPEND ON IT. The life of the next guy in line may depend on that. The military does not want you dead; they do not get a cheap thrill out of making that call to your family to report your injury or death. Believe me, as a soldier who saw friends and companions fall; as a mother who packed up FOUR of her five children and sent them away to serve... As a mother who has a child nearly 3 years into post-injury recovery... I want you to have that training. I want to know that you KNOW YOUR BUSINESS without thought or conscious decision. Its for everyone's safety.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Mar 22 at 2016 9:02 PM

2016-03-22T21:02:02-04:00

I can empathize with your pain and your choices. However, in reality, once you raise your right hand and swear to protect and defend the Constitution, you place Army first and your family second. I know it is rough, I had my family more than 10 thousand miles from me during Vietnam, and I did multiple tours due to the need for experienced officers. I was an OCS graduate at the time, only a high school education, so there was no time to got to college, or watch my kids grow up. Then when the war ended, there were these needs of a Four Year degree to stay in and not be rifted, and lots of night courses and sometimes taking the same course five times before I could complete it due to fly aways (Rapid deployment or specific missions) My professor finally gave me a party for completing the Speech Communications Class at University of Maryland.
I finally asked for a transfer to the Reserves and got it. I then completed college, had more time with my family, and enjoyed it immensely. I had over thirteen years of Active Service and I decided to stay in the Reserves, with minimum two week ADT. I retired after 33 years, and then had to wait till age 60 to get my benefits. Not many countries have this and I was grateful for the service, the retirement, and my time with my family. Choices can be hard, but, you must make the one that's right for you, your family, and this Nation you serve. OORAH
.

Response by PO2 David Allender made Mar 22 at 2016 10:23 PM

2016-03-22T22:23:07-04:00

Training is never useless. Training makes us work together as a team, without thinking. Training prepares us to do what needs to be done without thinking about it. Without training, there is no team work, no adhesiveness. We fall apart in a very short time. Command would be less than useless, because nobody would know what to do or when. Training starts in Boot camp and continues throughout your career. It is an essential part of any military learning.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 2:44 AM

2016-03-23T02:44:05-04:00

I have three children, so when I say this, it is not meant to be insensitive to your position ...but realistically, we are Soldiers. We are cut from a different cloth and are expected to do what others can't or won't. I DO know that there are huge issues at Campbell right now (ridiculous demands, toxic leadership, high rates of misconduct, etc.), but it's our duty as Leaders to weather the storm and to be "loyal to those with whom I/we serve". Your Soldiers deserve to be led by someone who strengthens their faith in the system, rather than question it openly. If you have concerns, bring them up with your leadership -behind closed doors. Work to improve the organization ...or if you really have no fire left to do that, then maybe it's time to take a bow and pass the reigns along to someone who will. Your family deserves a version of you that isn't constantly disgruntled -and your Soldiers deserve a leader that motivates them to consistently put forth their best and to take pride in every thing they do -including training, taskings, and details.

With that, training is absolutely necessary -that is a fight that you will never and should never engage in. Things like staying hours after the CG's release policy states -just to standby for guidance that may or may not come? Or because someone else didn't manage their time and taskings appropriately during the duty day? THAT IS a fight that you absolutely can and should take on.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 23 at 2016 6:11 AM

2016-03-23T06:11:33-04:00

SSG, I am a retired CSM, the only thing I can agree with in your statement is that you place Family first. Unfortunately you cannot have an effective career if you do not balance Family with Duty. As a leader it is your responsibility to set the example in all areas, this includes being involved with your Soldiers-coaching and mentoring whenever they need it. The fact that you have not taken any extraneous training makes it almost impossible for you to do so other than telling them to learn by your mistakes (but it can be done). You need to sign up for college, there is life after the Army and you will not be prepared t compete in the market if you do not. As for training, I will tell you what I told Soldiers Family's in Town Halls throughout my career. Would you rather sacrifice your Soldiers time to training and preparation for the next fight or would you rather he or she not be able to perform their duties and the Soldier on the left and the right come home in a body bag because you did not know how to perform your duty.

All this is not to say you are a bad leader, you are misguided, seek a mentor, someone who spouse smiles when they pick them up late n the parking lot, one who speaks of their spouses understanding, and tells of taking on the additional challenge of bettering themselves and you will have found one who has got it right, they have found the balance.

Response by CSM Felipe Mendez made Mar 23 at 2016 11:37 AM

2016-03-23T11:37:35-04:00

Good question… I will start by saying that being a leader, you must juggle your family time and your military duties at the same time to enjoy both. Soldiers/leader must adjust as necessary to get the best of both. There will be times in which you must decide what comes first and you must do so. I did correspondence courses while in the field/deploy environment. I attended college courses when possible. I did not complete my degree until the later part of my career. Not having a degree while in the early days of my career affect my promotions, leadership assignments or my leadership duties. Family is always first. There are the ones that will be there when all is said and done. Army will be a memory in the distance and depend what you decide to do while in the military, it can be a pleasant memory. You must remember that while on your duty day, your commitment is to your soldiers, unit and the Army. You must give 100% to those whom relies on your leadership, work and dedication. Never get caught up in the position in which you must decide one from the other. I served over 30 years and have no regrets and as up today my family have nothing negative to say about the military. We moved all over the place at least every three years. There were some ruff moments, but once my wife and kids got to know people in the new locations, everything was back to normal. Encourage your significant other/kids to participate in the unit’s events, community family functions and unit’s get together. Being a leader is part of known when to give to the military (unit, soldiers) your time and when to do the same with your family. Never look out it as a decision, just a fact of life while in the military. I recommend that when with the family, share quality time with them and no quantity. I explained, when with your kids/wife, dedicate yourself 100% to them and enjoy the time together. Do not expend your time with them by you being on the phone or washing TV. If you decide to do that latter, you will fell miserable, guilty when deployment comes around. Don’t waste time trying to decide one from the other, be the best parent that you can be and the best leader as well. It can be done; I assure you that. I wish you the best and thanks for your service, dedication to our great nation.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 8:29 PM

2016-03-23T20:29:18-04:00

To the OP, strange I asked myself the same question when I came from recruiting duty. My family won, I will shake away from my Army uniform one day. My wife and children will always be my family. There are certain penalties either way. Pick yours wisely.

Response by SGM Joel Cook made Mar 23 at 2016 9:50 PM

2016-03-23T21:50:26-04:00

Depends on whose perspective you are observing from. The Army always said needs of the Army first. I was deployed to Panama on an unaccompanied tour in Apr 1990 due to Operation Just Cause Aftermath. I was a newly promoted SFC with a wife and two kids four and six years old. My wife was very upset because I had been deployed to NCOPD schools for most of the previous year. When I returned from the last school I had 60 days to report to Panama for an 18 month tour alone. Once I got there the first Gulf War started and I was involuntarily extended for a period not to exceed 7 years. One year later my command offered to bring my family to Panama if I extended in Panama for 24 months after their arrival. So I jumped on it.
At the end of my tour the Army reneged on my guaranteed reassignment orders to Fort Hood, Tx and cut new orders 30 days prior to my departure and sent me to Fort Drum, NY.
So long story short if the Army needs your skill set they will break every contract or agreement they ever made with you. They will seperate you from your family indefinitely for any period up to two years. Only allowing you to see them on annual leave out of pocket expenses. Funny thing if I had not been sent to Fort Drum I might not have got several opertunities to excell. That eight of my predisessors had all failed at, setting me apart for promotion to SGM.
So if you are lucky like I was to marry a strong independent woman who loved me enough not to divorce me your family might stay together. The military divorce rate has always been high due to unaccompanied tours and other needs of the Army. So young soldiers should be briefed on these hardships prior to marriage. They are overseas but I doubt if they are stateside.

Response by SSG Leonard J W. made Mar 24 at 2016 12:13 AM

2016-03-24T00:13:17-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member, I love this question! I'm not really a Service Member anymore, but my answer is short and simple: It is only acceptable to take away from family TEMPORARILY.
I’ll start by saying that I have been a family man for the majority of my career. I always did my job well, and then I went home and gave my family its due diligence (normally an hour or two a day). Any career is temporary. The military is no exception, although the occupational environment and hazards are quite different. No one should reach the top of any career ladder and lack someone special with whom to celebrate the momentous occasion. Also, good leaders do not want troops going to war who are distracted due to family problems. A distracted troop is a weak link in the combat team – bad things are very likely to happen if the problem is not addressed in a timely manner.
The military is also a lifestyle - I concede that willingly - but that lifestyle typically ends for most people once they separate/retire. The defense of our great nation is obviously an extreme honor that we willingly asked for. But what's left after the honorable service? Certificates, some pins, an American flag, and a pension (if you retire). Hopefully, the family that has lost so much of our time is also still around. Train when it’s time to train, and then go home when the METL is full of the “T”. Don’t waste people’s time by sitting around and twiddling the thumbs.
I'm not single, but I was at one time. Accordingly, I will say this on behalf of the single service members out there: they have lives too. Don't just stick them on assignments and details because they don't have a family to go home to. That is a terrible misconception. They often have plans, and some of them are single parents who value their relationships with their children. Often, some of them are trying to start a family, but they won’t keep dates if they rarely get to have any!
Your final question was outstanding: “When can we get Soldiers to perform the tasks needed by the Army, such as college or boards if we are constantly being run dry by details and useless training?” The answer is very simple: It is up to you! You're the quarterback - make the hard call and take care of your troops. I recommend establishing a schedule where one or two of them can leave work a little earlier (an hour or two) during each particular weekday. This will allow more time for them to study for boards, complete college classes, and/or complete correspondence courses. This will prevent you from being too undermanned, and your troops will love you for it because they will know that you care about their well-being. Also, 24-hour duties, although I hated them, were fantastic opportunities for me to accomplish military and civilian educational opportunities.
I hope that my advice is helpful. I am familiar with your situation because I have been in your shoes. Thank you for your service to our great nation!

Response by A1C Brian Bonner made Mar 27 at 2016 6:31 PM

2016-03-27T18:31:03-04:00

Sorry but as someone who started at 10yrs old & away at military school by 13, The military must come first. We cannot just decidenot to use soldiers that are married, that's discrimination. That said the military is no longer any good unless you are a woman or homosexual; disgusting

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2016 8:07 PM

2016-04-02T20:07:16-04:00

The Army has a certain set of priorities, like defending the Constitution, the country and it's interests. We are ingrained with a responsibility to put the mission first. As leaders, we are instilled with the sense of being stewards of our profession. But life and reality isn't so black and white; it's quite dynamic actually. The Army mission and our family will always be competing against each other. It is ultimately up to us individually to decide which priority at that point in time is the '50 m target' that demands your immediate attention and action. While you cannot completely neglect your obligation to the Army, keep in mind that some point, whether you do 6 years or 30 years, the Rollercoaster ride we call our Army career comes to in an end. But your family will still be there (hopefully). The question will be will they be there standing there proud of your accomplishments, or resentful because of having been neglected?