When it comes to relationship violence, is it sexist to look at men and women differently?

2014-09-29T12:39:40-04:00

Whether you are looking at domestic violence, sexual assault, date rape, sexual harassment, etc, there appears to be a stark distinction between whether the male is the accused or the target. The message that no one is speaking, but that all of these policies are screaming is that, "Women are helpless and need special protection, but men can/should take care of themselves."

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I had a Soldier who had the police called to his residence several times - because of his wife. Her screaming and yelling would prompt neighbors to call the MPs. On one occasion, she had smashed every dish the couple owned. No charges. Then one evening, during a fight, he grabbed a bottle of baby powder and threw it into a trash can in a "violent manner." He was charged with domestic violence and hauled down to the station. He was informed that throwing an object during a domestic dispute would trigger automatic charges. Really? Because it hadn't when his wife had done it the month before.

I went to SHARP training this weekend at drill where there was much head shaking about why women would file restricted reports, or not report the incidents at all. But when the topic of male sexual assault came up, the predominantly male audience felt that the motivation for not reporting was "obvious." Really? The censuses was that it is "not as embarrassing" for a woman to be sexually violated. WOW!

Sexual harassment is another area where women seem to get more of a pass and men should just tough it out. Why can I talk about your "balls" with complete impunity? Could a man tell me I was lacking some part of my female anatomy? Imagine the reaction a man would get if he filed a complaint because someone told him he has a real big pair. But, what would happen to a man who commented on my breast size? I was involved in a case where a male was in trouble for "winking suggestively." Not saying he didn't or that it was the right thing to do...but if I had a dollar for every time I saw a female Soldier wink teasingly at a male Soldier, I could retire right now.

And then my last, and probably somewhat unconventional point here is when it comes to date rape situations, why is it that only the female can use "I was too drunk" as a defense? The rules really call for the male to judge the female's level of intoxication, no matter how drunk he happens to be. I get it if the other person is unconscious, but the new California "Yes means Yes" law says that someone who is drunk cannot give consent. How drunk do you have to be to be unable to give consent? I don't know. The rules don't say. I'm sorry but in a male/female situation, I only see that playing out in one direction. I don't see where a guy could file a complaint and claim, "she took advantage of the fact that I was drunk," and have those charges stick. At the same time, it is also unclear what constitutes consent. From the Swarthmore College handbook: If you ask, “Do you want this?”, you may not infer consent from the mere fact that your partner pulls you down on the bed and moves to take off your clothes. The "mere fact"... I feel that this leaves men very vulnerable in a way that wouldn't apply to women.

Is this helpful? Will any of this prevent these acts? Or is this a subversive form of discrimination where incompetence/innocence is assumed based solely on gender? (obviously, this is what I think, but what do you think?)

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Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Sep 29 at 2014 4:03 PM

2014-09-29T16:03:13-04:00

I think men have been thought of as the "dominant" sex in society for so long that one does a double take when a man is the target of domestic violence from a woman. I don't think its sexist because based on historical reporting the preponderance of cases are man on woman. I would think men may have more of an issue reporting a woman on man case because of the "perceived embarrassment" - OK if that is not sexist, I don't know what is.

Good topic CPT Private RallyPoint Member!

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2014 5:00 PM

2014-09-29T17:00:44-04:00

You asked a lot of very good questions CPT.
I know examples of women driving cross country to start fights with former spouses and the man is the one who got in trouble.

I also know several male Soldiers who would make crude jokes around females. One Soldier had other Soldiers who would go and hang out in his office, and made jokes back, but then complained about it, with one female Soldier naming him in the Command Climate survey.
That's why I am very selective with whom I will joke around with. and who might overhear and take offense. Otherwise I would have no problem with a female Soldier saying I lacked the "balls" to do something. Or responding that she doesn't have have the "ovaries" to do it either.

As for drinking, all the states have different rules, but I know several, like Arizona where I went to AIT in '08, have rules where you cannot give consent after alcohol has been consumed.
Alcohol = no consent.
Which is the rule I tell all my Soldiers and recommend all the Soldiers I work with to go by. And some states will go after both people, if they both were drinking.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2014 5:26 PM

2014-09-29T17:26:59-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, excellent topic and outstanding commentary. Like MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca stated, you asked some great questions and brought up great points. I am a certified SHARP Representative, or at least I was since I now have one day left in service, and the subject of double standards is something I struggle with as well as try to address in my briefings.

Men are predominantly the ones who commit the most rapes but women also commit rapes too. There was a news article just recently sometime last week about a guy waking up to find his female neighbor on top of him. She was arrested for rape. There are also the rare false allegations too which heavily damage a person's reputation. Personally, I call this mental rape. Look at the Duke Lacrosse case from several years ago where three young men were falsely accused of rape. Part of the problem with sexual assaults or harassment is that double standard heavily favoring women where men are always at fault, like in your domestic example above.

Regarding that, I can't possibly fathom why the wife wouldn't be held accountable for her more severe actions compared to his. The sad thing is, in the military, if the MPs are called to a male service-member's residence and something physical occurred, it'll be the male who has to leave regardless of what happened. This is not fair. The irony of it all is many will say "Well, he's just much stronger" or "He can do more damage" yet there's the hypocritical cry of inequality against women. Sorry, it goes both ways. Women can do just as much damage as a man. In some cases even worse. If there is to be true equality amongst ALL, regardless of gender, ethnicity or skin color, then each person must be held responsible or accountable for their actions.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Sep 30 at 2014 4:57 AM

2014-09-30T04:57:00-04:00

On this topic, CPT Private RallyPoint Member, what was your reaction to the Ray Rice incident? I found it appalling that after being abused by him, his girlfriend married him anyway. We all want to take a stand against domestic violence but what message does this send? Don't get me wrong people can be rehabilitated, but not that quickly. I would be hesitant to think that this does not happen with a man abused by a woman also, where they go back to them.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Sep 30 at 2014 11:41 AM

2014-09-30T11:41:03-04:00

While in my commanders reporting a similar incident there was a civilian woman present. When I advised the commander of a male Soldier who was assaulted by his wife, the woman laughed at me and said seriously, quit joking. I looked at her in disbelief that she could honestly think that only women are victims, the stigma is present. From being a previous MP and having to deal with domestics, violence the perpetrator id usually about 50% each way. Sexual assault has a lesser percentage, but lets remember that it has to be reported to be recorded as a statistic.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Sep 30 at 2014 12:00 PM

2014-09-30T12:00:27-04:00

CPT Wolfer, you make some excellent points and you are spot on with every one of them.

While it is not at all well known, there are a lot of "abused husbands" (and I'll include unmarried male partners as well) out there. They are the victims of assault from their wives/female partners and are reluctant to admit it. If they strike back, even in self-defense, they are automatically assumed to be the aggressor in most cases. I have seen it more times than I can count. While I think it is certainly true that the male is more often than not the aggressor in physical assault type situations, it is not always the case and is definitely not unusual for the female to be the actual aggressor. Most times, it is actually more of a "mutual affray" situation.

Interesting discussion about the "date rape" scenario. I had never really thought about it like you described. I don't think we will ever see people accept the male "I was too drunk to realize what I was doing" excuse, however. It is just best for everyone, male and female, to never get to the point that they don't know what is going on.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2014 6:14 PM

2014-10-01T18:14:12-04:00

I agree with you are the allegation on the capability of who is worthy of being a victim. In my law enforcement days we were bound by certain rules that would take away the ability to access the perception of the defenseless male. If he was assaulted she would be arrested. I have been to a call in the past where both parties were assaulted by another. I proceeded to arrested both of them and take them to jail.

A man can easily be a victim of assault and harassment. If you go to just about any place just off bragg women take advantage of young soldiers often. If you have ever seen a women look for a drunk soldier to satisfy their lust you will know what I am talking about. If not please visit a place called Pirates on the back side of Fort Bragg. It also goes in financial fraud also. Many women will target men for financial grains.

On your last point I would like to show you this link. This was in attempt to prevent the inability to agree to engage in a sexual act. I think it is a bit over the top but people do put themselves in some situation that are questionable. I know people hate doing a Composite Risk Management worksheet, but that would prevent a lot of situation. I am at odds when I find out a person was assaulted at a party. When reading the article the victim was a young female at a friends house who was unconscious due to alcohol. At what point do you believe drinking to the point of unconsciousness in an unfamiliar place with complete strangers around is an option. I am not blaming the victims but you are increasing the risk greatly by all the circumstances.

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Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2014 6:17 PM

2014-10-01T18:17:21-04:00

And what is up with with the link to some radio station in India? I didn't know you liked Indian music.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Oct 12 at 2014 10:07 AM

2014-10-12T10:07:26-04:00

Ma'am, Great topic and question. As a career law enforcement officer in and out of the military, I will answer this question from my perspective. I evaluated each case (I was a military Army CID Special Agent and civilian Army CID Special Agent assigned to the Special Victims Unit) independently to determine if a violation of Federal law or the UCMJ punitive articles had occurred. Then we opened an investigation. As a civilian LEO I responded to huge numbers of domestic violence calls, before mandatory arrest laws existed and after. My experience tells me, we look at the male first, but in my case not exclusively.

Also, as a Sexual Assault Investigator, I would add we asked the term "date rape" not be used. Lack of consent due to incapacitation or other means is rape or sexual assault. Everyone has the right to say no and have it respected even if you have a casual or other relationship.

I always viewed my responsibility in investigations as a sacred trust of examining the facts, evaluating the evidence, and presenting information. If this combination lead a trial counsel or prosecutor to believe an offense occurred then we moved forward with a prosecution. If it did not, we closed the investigation. As a street officer, I made these decisions independently with the background of "how would I want to be treated if I were in this situation?" running at all times.

Lady justice is blindfolded and holding scales symbolizing balance and fairness in justice. As a LEO we must follow that principle.

Thank you for such an interesting and thought provoking question and the opportunity to respond.

SFC Joseph M. Finck USA (Ret)

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2014 11:08 AM

2014-10-12T11:08:57-04:00

Excellent post CPT Wolfer. I was unable to view the video but I wonder if it was this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PgH86OyEM
I was shocked to discover that 40% of domestic abuse occurs against men by women. In any event, its wrong no matter what the sex. Treat each other as responsible adults, lock down the hormones and move on with life. Unfortunately in the age of drugs, alcohol, and "I want it now" attitude, maturity and common sense doesn't always reign supreme. But that's just my .02

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Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2014 6:59 PM

2014-10-25T18:59:02-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member There are a large amount of female bullying with males and then you have the abuse by loved ones or significant others. One of the problems is assuming too much when you find the victim. It is male in 40% of the cases. I am one of the males who is not going to let a female hit me and take away my dignity in that way. Though the abuse I went through were as a kid. The results are devastating. I am pretty easy going but do not push me too far because I will lash out. I try very had to get to far out on a limb.

But another problem and particularly upsetting is women with an agenda especially with it pertains to acting like their the only one. Humans are humans and they find themselves struggling to maintain their space. I do not like for people to be too close to me and I find myself trying to escape being boxed in and cornered.

Response by LCpl Andrew Yawger made Oct 26 at 2014 12:42 AM

2014-10-26T00:42:32-04:00

i got attacked by an ex girl friend of mine she hit me with a baseball bat first i had to go to the emergency room i got arested for pushing her away from me she was mad at me for leaving her and she told the cop she broke my windsheild on my car and she hit me first when i came outside but when i pushed her 2 times and she fell and had a small bruise on her arm. i told the cops i wanted to press charges they laughed at me and told me to take it like a man then they made her to get a restraining order against me which i got dropped in court the following week. i guess it ok for women to hit men and break 3 ribs but you touch them you go to jail. they charged her with breaking the window though but no on the assault. also i never had no previous incidents with her ever before this. its seems like the law always favor women which is wrong but it will never change.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 12:51 PM

2014-12-12T12:51:44-05:00

CPT Wolfer...yes it is. I remember working on Violence in the Family series for Pacific Stars and Stripes...we found many instances where wives physically assaulted husbands, in one case right in front of the Desk Sergeant at the MP Desk--

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Dec 13 at 2014 12:16 PM

2014-12-13T12:16:29-05:00

Once upon a time, men and women were equal. I believe that they may have been even more equal than we suspect. For example, we assume that men were the hunters and women were the gatherers in paleolithic times, but what evidence is there? Or, are we merely superimposing modern views on people whom we never directly observed?

As recently as the 19th and early 20th century times, men and women were far more equal in homes on the American frontier. For example, I believe that women had the right to vote in Wyoming long before suffrage was debated in more "civilized" states.

The sad truth is that "equality" is lagging far behind the realities of modern society. Indeed it appears that inequality is more "civilized" than equality. Thus, I don't think we'll answer it in this forum the question which inspired this discussion thread and eloquently defined this disparity.

I can only state my beliefs and wishes. I believe that America worked best when we clung to the Founders' belief in the ability of individual Americans to be self-governing. That all people have inalienable rights; All people regardless of gender, race, religion, etc, etc, etc. Whenever we diverge from that premise, we get into trouble.

I wish that all would respect each others equal rights and treat one another as equals.

Now, when we touch upon marital discord, all sense and sensibilities go out the window. A dysfunctional marriage is a mine-field. Ask any policeman who has ever been sent on a domestic violence call. Yes, there are victims, but are they ever innocent? Why does the battered wife or husband remain in the relationship even after repeated assaults? It is a Gordian Knot. Ask any psychologist. I remember my professor of domestic relations in law school. He referred to it as the state of "Holy Deadlock".

Response by 1LT David Moeglein made Dec 13 at 2014 12:29 PM

2014-12-13T12:29:42-05:00

Thank you for your courageous stand, CPT Ann Wolfer. Objectification is objectification. In male prison populations, rape statistics were not kept until the George W. Bush administration. Until then, rape was narrowly defined as forced vaginal penetration. Therefore, men by definition could not be raped. If we were to use a more inclusive definition of rape, I'd guess that the numbers would be pretty even between men and women.

On a personal note, after having been assaulted at work a number of years back (I had my teeth put through my lower lip, was given a black eye, and put in a choke hold), my trauma history flooded out. This included previously unconscious memories of having been sexually assaulted as a child.

There are scant few resources for male survivors of sexual trauma. My first resource was calling a women's crisis center. The gracious woman listened as I told my story between sobs, but this is not an easy maze to navigate for most guys. I went to the resource center to see if there were other resources for me as a man, but there were not.

After processing through my sexual trauma in individual psychotherapy, I was ultimately relieved to understand why I was so pissed off during my previous years, and why I left a wake of failed relationships behind me. Sexual abuse for men is devastating, and the symptoms of PTSD are more robust than they are in women.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Sep 8 at 2016 12:28 PM

2016-09-08T12:28:34-04:00

This is true in the military and civilian worlds. I've seen it both places and been subjected to it. In the Navy I told a female sailor to do her job and she reported me for sexual harassment. Thankfully I had witnesses (both male and female) to back me up.

In the civilian world I had to investigate a sexual harassment complaint. The women at a heavy industrial site I worked at complained that the men had porn pictures hanging in their locker room. My first question was "how do you know? Why would you be in the men's locker room?" BUT I had to tell the men to take down the pictures. However then I inspected the women's locker room. It was worse. But when I told them to take those pictures down they argued it was different for them. They couldn't tell me how.

The other topic you didn't touch on is the disparity between straight and gay. My daughter is a dancer and the dressing room for the men is a "safe" zone. Meaning that no one is supposed to pick on the gays. However there was only one straight male in the troupe. So he suffered severe abuse at the hands of the gays. When he finally filed a complaint he was kicked out because the locker room was a "safe" zone and his complaint supposedly damaged that. So the LGBT community also gets a pass on a lot of this garbage too.

The one that I saw that made no sense was a neighbor was trying to defuse the situation with his wife by leaving. She came out with one of his golf clubs and smashed in the windows on the car. When he got out, she hit him with the club numerous times. He grabbed the club finally and when he yanked it out of her hands she fell down. Yep. He was arrested for domestic violence despite all the evidence and witnesses.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Sep 15 at 2016 5:50 PM

2016-09-15T17:50:42-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member This forum is less well off from the absence of posts like this. How many people could write something like this? Not many around here anymore.